Stingray~

INEOS Team GB

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35 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

I have absolutely no doubt that the clever designers have been scratching their heads, trying to figure out exactly that.:rolleyes:

You need a foil that can change its shape depending on speed. Once cavitation starts occurring,  the foil changes into a different shape. You could have a foil with half the wing is the flap. At cavitation speed the flap moves inside  the front half of the wing. Now your left with a wedge shape which is more likely to do super cavitation. I’m sure the rules prevent this, also the front half of the wing has to be hollow to allow the flap to move inside it. The strength of this material would have to be a super alloy 

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2 hours ago, laser 173312 said:

Not a good start, given the news that the Bleedin' Bodgit Company are going to be covering the upcoming cup. 

Take heart. The Beeb will be relying on the same extensive core coverage we'll all see.  Of course they will "sweeten" their broadcasts with coverage from their own experts.  No promises on that score, but tons of national sailing broadcast experience the Wallahs at Broadcasting House can draw on.

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The Italian guys were specifically talking about a hybrid. 

From what I saw, the objective of the hybrid was not to get supercavitating capability plus typical performance (lift vs drag) at lower speeds.  It was more to get supercavitating capability plus have the "normal speed" performance go from "absolutely hideous" to just "plain bad".

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5 hours ago, mako23 said:

You need a foil that can change its shape depending on speed. Once cavitation starts occurring,  the foil changes into a different shape. You could have a foil with half the wing is the flap. At cavitation speed the flap moves inside  the front half of the wing. Now your left with a wedge shape which is more likely to do super cavitation. I’m sure the rules prevent this, also the front half of the wing has to be hollow to allow the flap to move inside it. The strength of this material would have to be a super alloy 

I am pretty sure the required material for the above is that good old unobtainium we occasion hear about.

If it were not for the symmetry requirements, I could see having a canted Y foil with the outboard element as a flapped "normal" foil and the inboard element as a non-flapped supercavitating foil.  When you are in "normal mode" you use the outboard element and the arm to provide all required lift so that the supercavitating foil is not trying to produce lift and thereby minimize drag.  Above some threshold (say 40 knots), you use your flap to unload the normal element and let the supercavitating element provide most if not all of your required lift.  Altitude control in supercavitating mode would be tricky but not impossible.  Possibly similar to the Altitude control provided by the Hydroptere configuration.    

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3 hours ago, P Flados said:

I am pretty sure the required material for the above is that good old unobtainium we occasion hear about.

If it were not for the symmetry requirements, I could see having a canted Y foil with the outboard element as a flapped "normal" foil and the inboard element as a non-flapped supercavitating foil.  When you are in "normal mode" you use the outboard element and the arm to provide all required lift so that the supercavitating foil is not trying to produce lift and thereby minimize drag.  Above some threshold (say 40 knots), you use your flap to unload the normal element and let the supercavitating element provide most if not all of your required lift.  Altitude control in supercavitating mode would be tricky but not impossible.  Possibly similar to the Altitude control provided by the Hydroptere configuration.    

Sail rocket, Hydropetere, that's all cutting edge technology.
A fast floating laboratory; exciting, inpredictable.

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Can we try and spread the super cavitation/sail rocket discussion to a few more topics, I have seen at least five with no mention of it and it’s not acceptable ;-) 

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11 hours ago, mako23 said:

You need a foil that can change its shape depending on speed. Once cavitation starts occurring,  the foil changes into a different shape. You could have a foil with half the wing is the flap. At cavitation speed the flap moves inside  the front half of the wing. Now your left with a wedge shape which is more likely to do super cavitation. I’m sure the rules prevent this, also the front half of the wing has to be hollow to allow the flap to move inside it. The strength of this material would have to be a super alloy 

This, I think, will be the answer in the future with some clever hinge linkages and tracks and stuff also flexible foil surfaces that completely change the shape of the foil. They will probably also be moving continuously to achieve optimal results. 

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6 hours ago, P Flados said:

  Above some threshold (say 40 knots), you use your flap to unload the normal element and let the supercavitating element provide most if not all of your required lift.  
 

very interesting P Flados 
Yes you could use a flap so the outer foil produces less lift, but how does that stop cavitation ?

maybe you could have this side sticking out of the water

 

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Reducing lift is part of how you can go faster before the onset of cavitation with traditional foil technology.  Thin sections also help.  So if you just want a little more speed you can keep the tradition foil in the water and use the flap for control.

And yes the other choice is to increase boat altitude and end up with nothing but the supercavitating element in the water.  This is where the Hydroptere style of altitude control would be required.

Either of the above would probably make supercavitating work for the main foil on an AC75 platform.  The actual top speed gain would then probably be limited by the rudder.  Balancing the boat to minimize rudder loading (both vertical and horizontal) at speed would become more important than it currently is. 

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17 minutes ago, P Flados said:

The actual top speed gain would then probably be limited by the rudder.  Balancing the boat to minimize rudder loading (both vertical and horizontal) at speed would become more important than it currently is. 

Very good point and something I hadn’t considered. Considering you need to retain a T shape foil for stability control, this  would add another complication if you tried to get the rudder to achieve super cavitation. 
All super cavitation foils I’ve seen don’t have a T section.  Yet if you go to a straight foil you lose the ability to control angle of attack and your back end would sink. 

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21 hours ago, P Flados said:

Stinger, go back to your Bermuda data.  What were peak SOG values on upwind & downwind legs compared to what they did when reaching. 

Good question but I can’t answer it without resurrecting a 3 yr old laptop. 
 

The highest speeds were recorded by AR and TJ. TJ’s was as they bore away around the Leg 1 reach mark, AR’s was on a tight approach to the bottom of Leg 6 downwind, making the turn to the finish reach.

From what most insiders have been saying, a massive difference this time will be how upwind speeds will be around 40 knots versus around 32 knots in Bermuda. That’d make AC75’s kill AC50s or even F50’s on an up-down track. 

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14 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Good question but I can’t answer it without resurrecting a 3 yr old laptop. 

Lol, I am trying to get use to a new laptop even as I type this message. 

I decided to try a 12" and am finding the vertical screen dimension is a lot less than desired when I am on forums that embed a bunch of junk at the top and/or bottom of the screens.

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17 minutes ago, P Flados said:

Lol, I am trying to get use to a new laptop even as I type this message. 

I decided to try a 12" and am finding the vertical screen dimension is a lot less than desired when I am on forums that embed a bunch of junk at the top and/or bottom of the screens.

My new one is good enough (I run several monitors) but I’m just not going to dust off a 3 yr old one, to be able to re-query a database that is cool but almost 4 yrs old, it’s not worth my time :)

Nice screens are cheap, one of mine is around that old and still works beautifully, highly recommended for whenever you move the laptop to a spacious desk for a change of scenery. 

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46 minutes ago, P Flados said:

Lol, I am trying to get use to a new laptop even as I type this message. 

I decided to try a 12" and am finding the vertical screen dimension is a lot less than desired when I am on forums that embed a bunch of junk at the top and/or bottom of the screens.

Not to mention all the crap posted in between, eh P? ;-)

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I see that Rita B1 is now sitting with all the cars on Bledisloe Wharf in Auckland

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Going against previous winner "Oracle New Zealand"... ha ha 

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34 minutes ago, Varan said:

Going against previous winner "Oracle New Zealand"... ha ha 

That wasn't the only boris-johnsonism in the piece, otherwise it was good.

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On 10/2/2020 at 5:19 AM, Horn Rock said:

I would've thought they would want the windward skin to be flatter, to create a greater pressure differential - more like the solid wings.

Flatter windward skin creates less pressure differential, not more. 

Think of the sail curving the air flow.  The windward skin is on the outside of the curve, so positive pressure is needed to make the air curve.  More curvature = more pressure.

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On 10/12/2020 at 1:00 PM, Crux said:

I see that Rita B1 is now sitting with all the cars on Bledisloe Wharf in Auckland

Looks like she is now on the forecourt at the INEOS base

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9 hours ago, weta27 said:

Looks like she is now on the forecourt at the INEOS base

Sure it's B1? Isn't B1 on a cargo ship to New Zealand?

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6 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

Sure it's B1? Isn't B1 on a cargo ship to New Zealand?

Crux posted monday saying it had arrived and was sitting on the wharf. 

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^^^ you of anyone knows the saying... pic or it didn't happen. 

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Really - who cares about Rita B1.  Anyway she came in on a car shipment Saturday and photographed on Bledisloe Wharf, Sunday morning sitting in the rain.

2H4A1211.JPG

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2 hours ago, Crux said:

Really - who cares about Rita B1.  Anyway she came in on a car shipment Saturday and photographed on Bledisloe Wharf, Sunday morning sitting in the rain.

2H4A1211.JPG

The next time that thing is in the water will be as a party barge getting towed to Kawau at 25 knots

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52 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

The next time that thing is in the water will be as a party barge getting towed to Kawau at 25 knots

sounds fun .. i'm in .... 

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Called past on the way home from work:
P1130535.thumb.JPG.3f376762dc050187f454892bba584349.JPGP1130551.thumb.JPG.0d59e0bda8be55ac7aa6f6573c4f2ad3.JPGP1130549.thumb.JPG.92691a14fb276c5b71187d544b1e8caa.JPGP1130539.thumb.JPG.0e0e103643773922056805fafef4928c.JPG

 

Now the really interesting thing was what that red sheet was trying to cover up..... but it's too early to be posting sneak peeks just yet :-)
 

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Just now, Rushman said:

B1 I presume

@mikenz2 Did you manage some photos of behind the red sheet?

Very much the remains of B1. They gutted it pretty good before it left, definitely no intentions to sail her in Auckland

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1 minute ago, mikenz2 said:

Very much the remains of B1. They gutted it pretty good before it left, definitely no intentions to sail her in Auckland

And the answer to the question is....

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Just now, Mozzy Sails said:

Why even ship her out?

Backup plan... Britannia-2 is known to be radically different, best have something you know on hand just in case it doesn't work out.

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Or in case of damage and it is quicker to resurrect B1 than repair B2.

The current NZ issue shows the merits of that

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7 hours ago, Crux said:

Really - who cares about Rita B1.  Anyway she came in on a car shipment Saturday and photographed on Bledisloe Wharf, Sunday morning sitting in the rain.

2H4A1211.JPG

How can you be sure it's rita 1? :P

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2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

The current NZ issue shows the merits of that

No one has any data that points toward any "issue". Least of all you.

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21 minutes ago, barfy said:

No one has any data that points toward any "issue". Least of all you.

Really? You did see the reports of damage to the steering pedestal. On this forum, NZ newspapes, sailing forums etc.

And since then no news, and we have reports that the shed doors were closed and they have of course not been sailing again from what we can tell. Certainly none of our locals have suggested they have been.

I wouldn't call it incontrovertible proof, but it is certainly "data that points towards an issue". In bold and underlined, lit up with bright lights..

 

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15 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

I wouldn't call it incontrovertible proof, but it is certainly "data that points towards an issue". In bold and underlined, lit up with bright lights..

It is a single datapoint. "One hears they had an issue".

Here's another datapoint, we have AM, INEOS and LR all prepping to launch boats with AM definitely preparing boat 2, and INEOS/LR presumedly preparing boat 2's as well.

So there is currently "radio silence" from all the teams, perhaps we should be drawing the conclusion that ETNZ are also preparing boat 2, which coincidentally aligns with a capsize.

Who knows? Not us on this forum.

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3 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Crikey that is one fugly looking critter.

DDCB7D2E-FE8A-43AE-9DBE-9E7E698966A7.thumb.jpeg.908e1537129b78c806582fb82bdb2c75.jpeg

 

few months ago and one of those involved told me you ain't seen nothing yet in the ugly stick department

 

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10 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

It is a single datapoint. "One hears they had an issue".

"One hears" ? You are kidding.

Sail world reported it, spoke to a crew member about cause, got info from the team about damage. You correct that I am inferring that is why they have not sailed since, but this is not an non-attributable quote from an anonymous member of this forum, but a widely reported event.

And the non-sailing since could be a coincidence. But coincidences often aren't

 

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15 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

"One hears" ? You are kidding.

*shrug*

I mostly object to the continued bashing of the team just because of silence, it could be they have a major problem with the boat but it's certainly not "In bold and underlined, lit up with bright lights.."

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Where have I based the team? I have asked questions. I have not criticized the team at all.

I do think the NZ supporters on here are being somewhat hypocritical in their ostrich-like attitude to this incident compared to when other teams have problems, but no criticism of the team at ll. Breakages happen. Anyone that has sailed knows that. On this thread I merely commented that GB was sensible to keep B1 for spare use, and had disagreement over it.

I agree that there has been little news, which given the amount of attention NZ normally gets is unusual, but absence of news or hard facts has never stopped speculation on here before so I'm not sure why you think it should on this issue?

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6 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Where have I based the team? I have asked questions. I have not criticized the team at all.

I do think the NZ supporters on here are being somewhat hypocritical in their ostrich-like attitude to this incident compared to when other teams have problems, but no criticism of the team at ll. Breakages happen. Anyone that has sailed knows that. On this thread I merely commented that GB was sensible to keep B1 for spare use, and had disagreement over it.

I agree that there has been little news, which given the amount of attention NZ normally gets is unusual, but absence of news or hard facts has never stopped speculation on here before so I'm not sure why you think it should on this issue?

You are right, I'll arrange a mob of ETNZ fans to go down to the base, hurl rotten tomatoes at the team and demand they tell us that the boat nearly sank and Burling got his balls caught in foil arm.

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would have to be B1, consistent with the hull mod to B1 and B1 still on low shipping cradle.

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Definitely designed for a skeg and those angles don't look like B1's bottom?

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So frustrating, everything is building to a climax and I'm going to be out of town for a week ...!!

Sounds like it will all be happening while I'm away.

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Weta,

I am confident that there will be ample opportunities for you to show off the photographic fruit of your in person spectating after your return.

Know also that the lack of your contributions while you are gone will be a sad thing for the viewers that frequent these threads in order to watch from afar.

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9 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

I agree that there has been little news, which given the amount of attention NZ normally gets is unusual, but absence of news or hard facts has never stopped speculation on here before so I'm not sure why you think it should on this issue?

But that's why there are pages on the royal family, and politics, and and. There is absolutely nothing to speculate. Either the boat is broken, or fixed, or a lull before b2. So knock yourself, spec u late.

It's too windy today regardless.

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4 hours ago, weta27 said:

Definitely designed for a skeg and those angles don't look like B1's bottom?

Kinda similar ETNZ  B1 if you added a Skeg onto it.  Also that cradle looks very new. Not a single stain on it. Why build a new cradle for B1 when you could take the old B1 cradle with you when shipping the boat to NZ. I know this syndicate is well funded...but not to the point there throwing money out the window. 
 

Talking about skegs....maybe ETNZ is putting one on B1 during the no show. Of course this is idle speculation of the worse kind. 

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Talking about skegs ....they obviously help create lateral resistance when the hull is fully in the water. But when the hull is flying can they not have an advantage by forcing the airflow to exit the stern in a cleaner manner. 

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2 hours ago, mako23 said:

Talking about skegs ....they obviously help create lateral resistance when the hull is fully in the water. But when the hull is flying can they not have an advantage by forcing the airflow to exit the stern in a cleaner manner. 

Does that mean the Handbags who have by far the most impressive skeg also have the cleanest rear airflow exit or to put it bluntly fart.

yysw287626.jpg.e02a2d872403a1deeeb68a2cf75509eb.jpg

c22330cb3aad323a0e440d0065f96185.thumb.jpg.d4716b5d3c52fa7d04886cd8f0d7829f.jpg

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Does that mean the Handbags who have by far the most impressive skeg also have the cleanest rear airflow exit or to put it bluntly fart.

yysw287626.jpg.e02a2d872403a1deeeb68a2cf75509eb.jpg

c22330cb3aad323a0e440d0065f96185.thumb.jpg.d4716b5d3c52fa7d04886cd8f0d7829f.jpg

 

 

Maybe it's like a very big f1 diffuser? Does the exiting airflow even matter here?

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26 minutes ago, ivansh said:

Maybe it's like a very big f1 diffuser? Does the exiting airflow even matter here?

At 10 or 15 knots no. But at 40 plus knots I’d argue yes. Remember the boat when going into the wind could have airflow at 52 or plus knots going over they hull. Some of that airflow is going to wrap under that hull and create non laminar flow on the leeward side.  With wind flowing under the hull at over 50 knots some attempt to keep this laminar would be worthwhile. 
 

However even with what,  I would say the main purpose of the skeg would be lateral resistance in water.  If you can clean up the airflow while on the foils that’s a bonus. 

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42 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Does that mean the Handbags who have by far the most impressive skeg also have the cleanest rear airflow exit or to put it bluntly fart.

Great store of pictures you have

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2 hours ago, ivansh said:

Maybe it's like a very big f1 diffuser? Does the exiting airflow even matter here?

For that to actually work you have to seal the edges to contain the airflow under the boat and maintain a relatively constant ride height with the ground/sea within a few centimetres, neither of those things are happening. 

there has been ALOT of discussion on ground effect/wing in ground effect ( two different principles) and F1 comparison already 

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Slightly relevant article re additive manufacturing and Honda R&D, since Ineos has plenty of access to this using titanium and time to develop the design pipeline (as first used in their test boat) and incorporate into B2. I've always respected Honda R&D since their IoM exploits where some of their engineering remains a mystery even today - like how on earth did they do it.

https://redshift.autodesk.com/crankshaft-design/?fbclid=IwAR2WXR1AxcabgirfcqKwIQ5kUs-ewJI5f8Y6Rde2c3OK5U8nm-moLNQfhDo

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13 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

Slightly relevant article re additive manufacturing and Honda R&D, since Ineos has plenty of access to this using titanium and time to develop the design pipeline (as first used in their test boat) and incorporate into B2. I've always respected Honda R&D since their IoM exploits where some of their engineering remains a mystery even today - like how on earth did they do it.

https://redshift.autodesk.com/crankshaft-design/?fbclid=IwAR2WXR1AxcabgirfcqKwIQ5kUs-ewJI5f8Y6Rde2c3OK5U8nm-moLNQfhDo

Sounds similar to the mystery that surrounds their legendary mountain bike https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_RN-01_G-cross

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10 hours ago, weta27 said:

So frustrating, everything is building to a climax and I'm going to be out of town for a week ...!!

Sounds like it will all be happening while I'm away.

Who approved this?

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10 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Given that B1 is sat on its cradle, that’s for B2

What’s B2 sitting on then?

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12 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

What’s B2 sitting on then?

It's hanging by the deck attachment points, with supports either side, whilst the epoxy sets on the latest bustle arrangement? I guess they could have glued it on before shipping, they had the hull in the spice island base for a few weeks, but this makes a better story. 

Like I said earlier in the thread, that cradle is certainly not contoured to the bustle. It merely makes space for one. That and the addition of the skeg post Italy, and the timeline for B2 hull shape sign off suggests to me the skeg is an appendage. Plus I know someone who saw the mould and he said it didn't look like it had a skeg. 

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4 hours ago, mako23 said:

Great store of pictures you have

Never in my sailing life would I have ever imagined this...
8702B4E6-3ABF-4429-A782-40D2E4678AC4.jpeg.e81148cbc7dc70f8eeb53458ae553729.jpeg

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1 minute ago, Priscilla said:

 

Great picture.....do you have any more directly in front to see Skeg profile 

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42 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

What’s B2 sitting on then?

It had to be transported on a cradle so it could be on that while the daily launch/service cradle is built or it’s on a something that allows it to be fitted out

The pics are not transport cradles  and they certainly are not for B1. As others have stated the profile is entirely wrong.

I know you won’t believe me so that’s fine. 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

It's hanging by the deck attachment points, with supports either side, whilst the epoxy sets on the latest bustle arrangement? I guess they could have glued it on before shipping, they had the hull in the spice island base for a few weeks, but this makes a better story. 

Like I said earlier in the thread, that cradle is certainly not contoured to the bustle. It merely makes space for one. That and the addition of the skeg post Italy, and the timeline for B2 hull shape sign off suggests to me the skeg is an appendage. Plus I know someone who saw the mould and he said it didn't look like it had a skeg. 

The pics of it shrink wrapped showed something underneath bustle/skeg shaped so I am pretty sure it was shipped with it intact rather than added on in NZ 

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54 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

What’s B2 sitting on then?

Good question, she was sitting up on a cradle already.
852225258_P1130543(2)_LI.thumb.jpg.9c269405aadce521e0665d3c1aa1d09f.jpg

With very finished looking livery, including bright red "RITA" on the side. 
 

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7 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

The pics of it shrink wrapped showed something underneath bustle/skeg shaped so I am pretty sure it was shipped with it intact rather than added on in NZ 

Is there any sign of a skeg on NYYC club B2. I saw one picture were it was claimed someone could see one. I looked and wasn’t convinced one way or the other.

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On 10/10/2020 at 8:04 AM, Stingray~ said:

From what most insiders have been saying, a massive difference this time will be how upwind speeds will be around 40 knots versus around 32 knots in Bermuda. That’d make AC75’s kill AC50s or even F50’s on an up-down track. 

They might get to go that fast upwind, but even if the boatspeeds are only similar, the VMG gains from the angles they sail and the speed preservation they demonstrate in manoeuvres - particularly in the tacks - means the AC75 would slaughter the AC50's all day, everyday - and twice on Sunday.......

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6 minutes ago, Boink said:

They might get to go that fast upwind, but even if the boatspeeds are only similar, the VMG gains from the angles they sail and the speed preservation they demonstrate in manoeuvres - particularly in the tacks - means the AC75 would slaughter the AC50's all day, everyday - and twice on Sunday.......

That Sunday performance could be a design validation.

I don't have the inclination to quote the Muppet brigade who went on about: the transition being unmanageable, the boats falling over at the dock and before powering up, maneuvers being impossible,.soft sails being fifty percent of a wings performance. But you know who you are who speculated on nothing but your anger and bitterness.

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51 minutes ago, mikenz2 said:

A peek at the bow:

801001008_P1130544(3).thumb.JPG.2aed53645d0167f4f87feaf6ecdd98d9.JPG
 

But that means they have the budget for more than one cradle? Omg! ;-)

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13 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

But that means they have the budget for more than one cradle? Omg! ;-)

:lol::lol:

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49 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

But that means they have the budget for more than one cradle? Omg! ;-)

That made me smile, but did get me thinking, theres some draping cloth, the boat and you can see possibly the rear of the cradle? What do we think about the chance the shot was taken whilst they were moving the boat onto the cradle? B2 possibly hanging from the winches in the roof as they have a proper base and not a tent, so they can lift the boat indoors? 

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So far still cautiously optimistic the Ineos boat two will still be horrendously ugly. Seeing that they went for the aesthetic choice to cover the thing in little sucker shapes like some kind of cephalopod limb is very encouraging at this stage.  

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18 hours ago, mikenz2 said:

Do we think this is the cradle for B-1 or B-2?

 

1130524-01.jpeg

1130526-02.jpeg

Could be a cradle for the support boat.  It can't be for B1 or B2 because both of those boats are currently setting on their cradles.

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5 hours ago, mikenz2 said:

The new livery:
 

 

That's walking a fine line between going to look awesome or vulgar as fuck...

Time will tell

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

Could be a cradle for the support boat.  It can't be for B1 or B2 because both of those boats are currently setting on their cradles.

 INEOS employ a series of very tall people to work on the support boats so to make sure the boat is at a comfortable working height they need a cradle 4 m off the ground so they don't get bad backs from crouching down.

its the B2 cradle.

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6 hours ago, mikenz2 said:

A peek at the bow:

801001008_P1130544(3).thumb.JPG.2aed53645d0167f4f87feaf6ecdd98d9.JPG
 

Is that "red tarp" an old ETNZ IACC or TP52 spinnaker?

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2 hours ago, rh3000 said:

That's walking a fine line between going to look awesome or vulgar as fuck...

Time will tell

Given the trend to date...

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Multi layered photo image that tells you nothing, 

It was used on the insta page to hint at the Belstaff clothing launch that’s all 

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And despite all the talk about sailor safety on the water and for the shore crew on land, I saw a GB sailor biking home last night on a main arterial road without a helmet on and in flagrant breach of NZ traffic regulations.

Absolutely shocking....... How can it be??? Why doesn't he get a Landrover too???

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12 hours ago, mako23 said:

Great picture.....do you have any more directly in front to see Skeg profile 

1175262915_ScreenShot2020-10-04at8_43_42PM.thumb.png.eb77e59e76fbd5e30e1d968b64abf8c2.png

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