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INEOS Team GB

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Getting ready. East of Motahe. 5 knots. This should be interesting. 

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68D462C4-A982-41CD-99B2-82B41C2C0BDE.jpeg

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Spy boats circulating. 6 to 7 knots. Hopefully action soon. . 

9628E2E2-42F4-4E30-AC68-063DED9E412C.jpeg

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21 minutes ago, Iany_nz said:

Spy boats circulating. 6 to 7 knots. Hopefully action soon. . 

9628E2E2-42F4-4E30-AC68-063DED9E412C.jpeg

Where are they? 

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Foil and boom shot. Hopefully foiling soon. 

E7A84CA8-1AB6-454B-87A0-FA564C51A642.jpeg

D93C561F-982B-44B8-B005-871FE0F7C048.jpeg

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The aero package looks pretty average! The cockpits definitely don’t look as deep as the others. 

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7 minutes ago, Iany_nz said:

Foil and boom shot.

Foil flaps look to be the full width of the foil.

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2 hours ago, Iany_nz said:

Getting ready. East of Motahe. 5 knots. This should be interesting. 

E7BC939E-280F-42DD-92E0-DB423E438EA5.jpeg

 

I appreciate you taking out your submarine and snapping shots via the periscope! :-D

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7 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The aero package looks pretty average! The cockpits definitely don’t look as deep as the others. 

Maybe they're just taller.

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15 minutes ago, Iany_nz said:

First foil! Yeehar

Wow, low rider.......Too low? Might be some nice end plating?

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13 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Foil flaps look to be the full width of the foil.

I was wondering..perhaps the outer flap is actuated by soft membrane between the two, or is just a pre-set trim tab. One outer has a mini actuator bit maybe, but I think the rule says only a two piece flap, not four, discussed previously.

Nice shot

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6 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Is it actually flying there?

Looks to have the speed of a foiling boat.

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3 minutes ago, barfy said:

I was wondering..perhaps the outer flap is actuated by soft membrane between the two, or is just a pre-set trim tab.

There looks to be some additional trickery going on under there, with those fences/actuators and that other horizontal line.

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New sails and cuts, new mast, new rigging, quicker responses/high loads than B1. Clean cut wash from fin just before touchdown. Obviously not pushing here, just going thru basics and not wanting to expose too much too soon. New stuff to be fitted coming off production pipeline no doubt. Interesting ingress to water, more like a tri.

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3 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

New sails and cuts, new mast, new rigging, quicker responses/high loads than B1. Clean cut wash from fin just before touchdown. Obviously not pushing here, just going thru basics and not wanting to expose too much too soon. New stuff to be fitted coming off production pipeline no doubt. Interesting ingress to water, more like a tri.

Theres no wind......

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46 minutes ago, Sugarscoop said:

Theres no wind......

She clocked 23knots.

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Foil? Looks like it doesn’t want to!

Only just clear of the water but nowhere near it's intended fly height. Light weather testing which makes sense. Let's hope for their sake she's doing what's she is supposed to do in this wind range? 

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Coming back after a good 6hr day at the office

1A2B2989-5B12-4B9E-B689-8876CAC7C284.jpeg

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2 hours ago, Sugarscoop said:

All 4 teams should come to an agreement for a promotional drag race just for us punters......

Be a great idea. IMOCA 60's oblige, so AC75 might want to consider as part of the ACWS regattas. 

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Foil? Looks like it doesn’t want to!

First look, skeg is dragging in the water......Is that what they want ?

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No part of this new boat looks good.  Not saying its bad, just saying she looks like a dog....

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4 hours ago, rh3000 said:

Is it actually flying there?

Theory: It’s not meant to. Hence the flat bottom. #Endplating #BankingOnFlatWater

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4 minutes ago, Rainier said:

No part of this new boat looks good.  Not saying its bad, just saying she looks like a dog....

Way better looking than the B1 barge.

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3 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Theory: It’s not meant to. Hence the flat bottom. #Endplating #BankingOnFlatWater

had thought about this as well

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5 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Foil flaps look to be the full width of the foil.

Sort of... but they appear to be two distinct flaps per wing. Wonder how they got around the "one flap per foil wing" Rule?

15.2 Each foil shall include two foil flaps, one lying entirely on one side of the foil wing symmetry plane, and one lying entirely on the other side of the foil wing symmetry plane.

 

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Britannia ... seriously?

That's almost as predictable and lame as Patriot.

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8 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Sort of... but they appear to be two distinct flaps per wing. Wonder how they got around the "one flap per foil wing" Rule?

15.2 Each foil shall include two foil flaps, one lying entirely on one side of the foil wing symmetry plane, and one lying entirely on the other side of the foil wing symmetry plane.

 

It’s an intelligence test which you have failed miserably.

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They look draggy.  But that matches the rest of the boat.

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5 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Foil flaps look to be the full width of the foil.

Bendy around the corner foil flap mechanism, should be good. 

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19 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Sort of... but they appear to be two distinct flaps per wing. Wonder how they got around the "one flap per foil wing" Rule?

15.2 Each foil shall include two foil flaps, one lying entirely on one side of the foil wing symmetry plane, and one lying entirely on the other side of the foil wing symmetry plane.

 

Guess they didn’t get the memo? Or they are deliberately cheating 

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10 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Bendy around the corner foil flap mechanism, should be good. 

They have good reasons no doubt, but the vectors are fighting each other, unless they can be used independently.

EDIT: But this is the country that gave us the P76.

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I thought something was missing from that post, it wasn’t remotely in line with the incessant negativity from you.

thanks for editing it 
 

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19 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Guess they didn’t get the memo? Or they are deliberately cheating 

I couldn't really find a definition of "one flap"...  although "15.9 Connections between sections of a foil flap..." certainly indicates that "one flap" can be separate sections, as INEOS has done.

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Indeed, is getting the connection around the corner that’s interesting as well as the other lines in front of the flap 

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37 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Indeed, is getting the connection around the corner that’s interesting as well as the other lines in front of the flap 

Right up Mercedes and  Renishaw's street perhaps, plus a bucket load of  Iridis.

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52 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

I couldn't really find a definition of "one flap"...  although "15.9 Connections between sections of a foil flap..." certainly indicates that "one flap" can be separate sections, as INEOS has done.

If the definition of ‘one flap’ is just that it requires a single continuous surface then surely this was an obvious solution? If there are no separations in the sections at the surface then it’s effect on the water is as a continuous surface? Just that it’s in two planes... clever ;) 

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Each of the grinders now has their own individual forward facing fixed position, increasing the overall power output significantly from the RB1 set-up.

I missed this tidbit from the launch, sounds like they are saying that having a grinder per ... grinder is better power output than doubling up, despite the increased weight / space? Did anyone spot this at launch?

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12 minutes ago, ed__miller said:

If the definition of ‘one flap’ is just that it requires a single continuous surface then surely this was an obvious solution? If there are no separations in the sections at the surface then it’s effect on the water is as a continuous surface? Just that it’s in two planes... clever ;) 

Zooming in on the pic appears to show the foil wing extending between the two sections of the flap. I'd assume that there's some sort of "universal joint" in there.

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21 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

I missed this tidbit from the launch, sounds like they are saying that having a grinder per ... grinder is better power output than doubling up, despite the increased weight / space? Did anyone spot this at launch?

At launch they had one side visible and the grinding  stations were horizontal /side on

not in line how they are now

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15 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Zooming in on the pic appears to show the foil wing extending between the two sections of the flap. I'd assume that there's some sort of "universal joint" in there.

Or is it just some flexible material that joins the two surfaces with completely independent mechanisms to control them. To satisfy the measurers the ‘flap’ would have to comply but I guess any other clever mechanisms not specifically prevented in the rules are all good.. it’ll come down to legal nuance with the measurers. 
 

anyone know if the measurers can be consulted to test the legality of a device prior to regatta measurement? 

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That bulge at the end of the jib track looked very strange without the grinder heads behind it. 

Maybe it's there to divert the airflow around the grinder heads and reduce drag. 

Ineos appear to have made the hull very shallow, trenches are not very deep, but maybe the reduced frontal area of the hull is an overall gain. 

So to reduce the windage from grinders they've put that bulge there and still come out with a less draggy overall arrangement 

IMG-20201023-WA0006.jpg

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1 minute ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

That bulge at the end of the jib track looked very strange without the grinder heads behind it. 

Maybe it's there to divert the airflow around the grinder heads and reduce drag. 

Ineos appear to have made the hull very shallow, trenches are not very deep, but maybe the reduced frontal area of the hull is an overall gain. 

So to reduce the windage from grinders they've put that bulge there and still come out with a less draggy overall arrangement 

IMG-20201023-WA0006.jpg

So F1 aero and drag reduction techniques is playing a useful part... there was me thinking Mercedes engineers wouldn’t have anything to impart ;) 

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2 hours ago, Priscilla said:

It’s an intelligence test which you have failed miserably.

Maybe, maybe not.    Wouldn't be the first time if I have...  :wacko:

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That makes sense Masta, good point

As for low ride, a few months ago there was a consensus that flying low was good for end-plating and thus faster, I know that is not the case at higher wind speeds when you may want to reduce foil drag but that is not the case here. 

With respect to grinders, having more weight isn't a problem because its more RM. Mayb they even have the option to rotate them for different condition

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8 hours ago, Iany_nz said:

Foil and boom shot. Hopefully foiling soon. 

E7A84CA8-1AB6-454B-87A0-FA564C51A642.jpeg

D93C561F-982B-44B8-B005-871FE0F7C048.jpeg

It looks like they have learnt nothing about endplate or aero drag. The mast standing of the deck looks crap compared to LR. The boom and the bottom of the main is terrible. The concept of the boat looks ok but there apereas to be very little detail work done on refinements. For a team with so much cash you wonder what they have been doing with there time. 

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5 minutes ago, Status quo said:

It looks like they have learnt nothing about endplate or aero drag. The mast standing of the deck looks crap compared to LR. The boom and the bottom of the main is terrible. The concept of the boat looks ok but there apereas to be very little detail work done on refinements. For a team with so much cash you wonder what they have been doing with there time. 

It’s there first day out there with their new boat. Give them a chance ??

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2 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

I thought something was missing from that post, it wasn’t remotely in line with the incessant negativity from you.

thanks for editing it 
 

What?

Are you the warm up guy for the crowd?  If you are, I'm just warming up!

Come the think of it, it does remind me of a P76.  Boxy, hard angles and those foil versions look like the winner of the school science class competition.  I wonder if it can fit a 44 gallon drum in the boot as well.

leyland-p76-24.jpg

 

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10 minutes ago, Status quo said:

It looks like they have learnt nothing about endplate or aero drag.

The Whole bottom of the hull and its skeg is about endplate affect. 
Considering the Mercedes F1 team had an input into the design of this boat, I can safely say they might know about Aero as well

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11 minutes ago, Status quo said:

It looks like they have learnt nothing about endplate or aero drag. The mast standing of the deck looks crap compared to LR.

Careful or @JALhazmat   will be along to give you a pep talk about your negativity.

 

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Just now, astro said:

Careful or @JALhazmat   will be along to give you a pep talk about your negativity.

 

Obvious troll is obvious.

the car thing is a nice touch, as burn it works best if you hadn’t already referenced it  and the had to repeat it but with pictures as no one gave a fuck the first time 

secondly it was Leyland Australia that were responsible for it

not Ineos. 

 

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A wonder that B1 being bit of a dog was a blessing in disguise. Later they added a skeg and they could see the difference a skeg makes on a boat. No other team has this data. Maybe the affect was so large it tempted them to go for a super skeg

So while every one including me mocked B1 and called it crap, Ineos will get the last laugh

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They've tried quite a few boom (no boom) arrangements with various clear sections, looking like a cat style main trimming style. 

I am a little surprised to see them go to a traditional boom (although more like a moth with deck sweeper draped either side).  It does look as nice as their earlier attempts down low. Perhaps afford greater control further up the sail? 

Does this Luna Rosa as the only boom-less boat? I remember chat about it being under the deck early on, but haven't kept up since then. 

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1 minute ago, JALhazmat said:

the car thing is a nice touch, as burn it works best if you hadn’t already referenced it

But I was right, it looks like one doesn't it?

Leyland is a British company, since when would they have let people in the colonies tell them how to design something?

 

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16 minutes ago, Status quo said:

It looks like they have learnt nothing about endplate or aero drag. The mast standing of the deck looks crap compared to LR. The boom and the bottom of the main is terrible. The concept of the boat looks ok but there apereas to be very little detail work done on refinements. For a team with so much cash you wonder what they have been doing with there time. 

They could have hung the big hydro mechanism out the back of the boom like the kiwi boat? Would that be more “aero” ? 

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2 minutes ago, astro said:

But I was right, it looks like one doesn't it?

Leyland is a British company, since when would they have let people in the colonies tell them how to design something?

 

 

5D13A5BA-39C7-44B4-A594-85913D3B3920.jpeg

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2 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

." certainly indicates that "one flap" can be separate sections, as INEOS has done.

I think you've nailed it Max. They look to be controlling it with that mechanism at the rear.

ineos_flap.thumb.jpg.88b64213318b8c8b2ed8417ead36af06.jpg

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9 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

 

5D13A5BA-39C7-44B4-A594-85913D3B3920.jpeg

"But Rodbergh was upset that he wasn’t even consulted about the project, so, working through his holidays, he created his own styling proposals for the YDO26 sedan and YDO27 coupe, adding them to a presentation for BMC UK head Lord Stokes. Bizarrely, it was Rodbergh’s wedge-shaped submission that created the most interest, with the Longbridge, Karmann and Michelotti designs largely ignored."

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6 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

I think you've nailed it Max. They look to be controlling it with that mechanism at the rear.

ineos_flap.thumb.jpg.88b64213318b8c8b2ed8417ead36af06.jpg

Hard to say for sure, we'll have to wait until MikeNZ gets some of his awesome close-up pics with better detail?

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1 hour ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

That bulge at the end of the jib track looked very strange without the grinder heads behind it. 

Maybe it's there to divert the airflow around the grinder heads and reduce drag. 

Ineos appear to have made the hull very shallow, trenches are not very deep, but maybe the reduced frontal area of the hull is an overall gain. 

So to reduce the windage from grinders they've put that bulge there and still come out with a less draggy overall arrangement 

2090209522_ineosb2boom2.thumb.jpeg.a1f506918f2521dd0507387ecfbee21a.jpeg.1deb747f4b6547e834e03736ca3360b6.jpeg

Here's the bulge shape from another angle. Not really the shape you'd need to streamline the grinders imo. I suspect it's for flow when sheeting the code zero. Like your observation about the shallow hull though - so different to their first boat. The shallow hull would seem to present well aerodynamically whilst flying.

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Glad to see they are keeping their design philosophy agricultural :rolleyes:

I still think Massey Ferguson would be a more appropriate sponsor

7E01EAB9-02E4-4499-8590-01B95CD453F5.jpeg

76385AAC-F585-4480-A079-D77B4B2B4EAE.jpeg

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1 hour ago, mako23 said:

It’s there first day out there with their new boat. Give them a chance ??

That was politer than I was going to be

 

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122503065_392811762094551_1149964977776432389_o.thumb.jpg.fc2134f2efab127db73d2355d9b2b67a.jpg

Ride height with hull end plating looks pretty good here. Deck sweeper looks like it could be sorted some more.

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19 minutes ago, uflux said:

76385AAC-F585-4480-A079-D77B4B2B4EAE.jpeg

Getting the flaps to work on such a foil configuration is not easy. The must of had their reasons for a gull wing.....if not your sure making your life harder

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51 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

122503065_392811762094551_1149964977776432389_o.thumb.jpg.fc2134f2efab127db73d2355d9b2b67a.jpg

Ride height with hull end plating looks pretty good here. Deck sweeper looks like it could be sorted some more.

It’s their first sail. ETNZ had Exposed plywood on their AC50 during their first tests in Auckland. 

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Blimey, those under-wing control rods look pretty crude and drag making. Not a bus ride away from model aeroplanes, just a load bigger.  Surely, the control rods need to be in the wing?  I assume to top surface is squeaky clean

ineos_flap.thumb.88b64213318b8c8b2ed8417ead36af06.jpg-edit.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Boatshed said:

Blimey, those under-wing control rods look pretty crude and drag making. Not a bus ride away from model aeroplanes, just a load bigger.  Surely, the control rods need to be in the wing?  I assume to top surface is squeaky clean

 

I think it is misleading from the colour, if you look at any of the end on look, it doesn't appear to be proud, e.g. 

EF8A9FAC-0646-42CC-9633-12EBEEFB73CA.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

2090209522_ineosb2boom2.thumb.jpeg.a1f506918f2521dd0507387ecfbee21a.jpeg.1deb747f4b6547e834e03736ca3360b6.jpeg

Here's the bulge shape from another angle. Not really the shape you'd need to streamline the grinders imo. I suspect it's for flow when sheeting the code zero. Like your observation about the shallow hull though - so different to their first boat. The shallow hull would seem to present well aerodynamically whilst flying.

You may be right. That bulge is not substantially steep or aggressive to be effective in diverting flow around grinder heads. It's also probably too far outboard to do that. 

Apparent wind wouldn't flow fully parallel with the boat, would come across over the trench so maybe there's still some benefit in having that bulge. 

IMG-20201023-WA0009.jpg

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1 hour ago, uflux said:

Glad to see they are keeping their design philosophy agricultural 

Agricultural indeed :huh:

I kinda like the concept, lots of sweep & the crank is reminiscent of the Whompers.

But the detail implementation looks nasty :unsure:

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Difficult to see.  But the flap appears to have an external control arm.  If the rods are external, then they are quite snug to the underside of the wing.  Need better pics!

ineos wing.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Boatshed said:

Difficult to see.  But the flap appears to have an external control arm.  If the rods are external, then they are quite snug to the underside of the wing.  Need better pics!

ineos wing.jpg

To me that foil wing assembly looks quite well executed. 

Making a 'bent' flap surface articulate, while keeping a good gap to the non-rotating leading edge section wasn't going to be easy. 

Some detailing going on transition from foil wings to bulbs looks developed. 

But.. I still cannot figure out or understand why this gullwing broken shape is beneficial... 

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10 minutes ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

 

But.. I still cannot figure out or understand why this gullwing broken shape is beneficial... 

Better control??  If  inverted Vee breaches the water surface, it'll lose lift and settle down again, hopefully, in a progressive manner.

Same principle here.  As the foils rise out of the water, they lose lift

Screen Shot 2020-10-23 at 12.49.35.png

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51 minutes ago, Boatshed said:

Blimey, those under-wing control rods look pretty crude and drag making. Not a bus ride away from model aeroplanes, just a load bigger.  Surely, the control rods need to be in the wing?  I assume to top surface is squeaky clean

ineos_flap.thumb.88b64213318b8c8b2ed8417ead36af06.jpg-edit.jpg

the white bits aren't external control rods

where the flap meets the wing, the flap will have a concave front face, the wing will have a convex surface so that they nest together so that as the flap angle increases they move past each other without creating a gap on the top surface or binding on the bottom surface, all you are seeing is the different surface finish of the convex surface that the flap rotates against 

you end up with a smoother flap/wing joint 

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3 hours ago, astro said:

But I was right, it looks like one doesn't it?

Leyland is a British company, since when would they have let people in the colonies tell them how to design something?

 

In general, since the takeover of Jaguar and Land Rover by Tata. 

And Paccar, owning Leyland now, is US American. 

Colonies in charge all around. 

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3 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

I think you've nailed it Max. They look to be controlling it with that mechanism at the rear.

ineos_flap.thumb.jpg.88b64213318b8c8b2ed8417ead36af06.jpg

Dunno. The kink is bound to create turbulence/drag, especially at high flap deflections

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

the white bits aren't external control rods

where the flap meets the wing, the flap will have a concave front face, the wing will have a convex surface so that they nest together so that as the flap angle increases they move past each other without creating a gap on the top surface or binding on the bottom surface, all you are seeing is the different surface finish of the convex surface that the flap rotates against 

you end up with a smoother flap/wing joint 

Get that.  How is the flap actuated and what are those little up (down??) stands near the end of the white lines?  Are they gates/fences?  It just looks bit crude but that could be the photo

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31 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Dunno. The kink is bound to create turbulence/drag, especially at high flap deflections

I think you're right, any flap will incur some degree of vortices forming at the ends... they've doubled it having 2 sections.

21 minutes ago, Tommy22 said:

The kink worked well in Bermuda...

That's because they could not cant the "L" shaped foils (or "S" as some called them)... when fully down it looked like the outer part of the foil was flat, and the inner part canted to give some lateral lift.

14 minutes ago, Boatshed said:

Get that.  How is the flap actuated and what are those little up (down??) stands near the end of the white lines?  Are they gates/fences?  It just looks bit crude but that could be the photo

Someone mentioned that they use Macon(?) electric motors to actuate the flaps. Those "bits" you see are probably temporary pods with measuring equipment... maybe pressure?

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12 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Someone mentioned that they use Macon(?) electric motors to actuate the flaps. Those "bits" you see are probably temporary pods with measuring equipment... maybe pressure?

Maxon supply ETNZ motors, not necessarily the other teams...

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14 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

I think you're right, any flap will incur some degree of vortices forming at the ends... they've doubled it having 2 sections.

That's because they could not cant the "L" shaped foils (or "S" as some called them)... when fully down it looked like the outer part of the foil was flat, and the inner part canted to give some lateral lift.

They need not have doubled the vortices, because the flap is continuous there is not an end between the  sections. If you think of the tips on the end of aircraft wings which have similar angles they actually reduce vortices. Note that even if the corner did count as an end it would only be a 50% increase. Furthermore they may require less adjustment because of this design which would reduce the magnitude of the vortices.

Also as the foil raises up the angled section can come out of the water leaving a stable but minimal section in the water. In this case one of the flaps (and thus its vortices) will be out of the water and thus lower. .

It is also wrong to assume that there is one factor that as dominant in different wind speeds and different parts of the course. At some it will be lift to get out the water quickly,, at others maximum force and thus righting moment, at others minimum .drag.

I think this foil shape does a good of transitioning between those because at low speeds with full imersal