INEOS Team GB

[Kate short for Bob 235]

2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

It all depends on what those “positions” are. It just means as was the case in Bermuda, the choreography of the crew work means crew members cover each other until that crew member gets into position. Ashby covered Burling until he got into position through manoeuvres. Pete got caught out at the end of the second to last leg against Artemis and Ashby actually said to him “come and grab the wheel Pete” 

I might be wrong however if you have the best helmsman in the world why limit them by job sharing?  I still believe that being able to look up the course for the helmsman and main trimmer will be important.  We haven't seen many videos showing a point of view looking forwards from the stern but what I've seen there is still considerable variation in course requiring helm and mainsail trim inputs.  If anyone thinks these matches will be just straight line drag races then they are mistaken.

Maybe JALhazmat is clutching to find negatives for the new ETNZ boat.

[trt131 168]

1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I might be wrong however if you have the best helmsman in the world why limit them by job sharing?

But I believe Jimmy is job sharing.

[JALhazmat 942]

27 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Well the point, which you fail to acknowledge, is that crew members were "out of position" in Bermuda.  It didn't seem to make a difference.

You could equally argue that crew staying on one side of the boat and not switching is also "out of position".  Having to explain that to you would also be a waste of time.

Ok... we aren’t in Bermuda are we? Or on AC50s  

out of position Indicates that it is not optimal, why spend more time in non optimal position than needed? 

it’s the length of time out of position that’s is less than ideal.. hence the rush they are always in. Or should they just amble around and cross when they feel like it? After all it’s only a few seconds.. 

IF it’s possible to have no switching that’s the best option as by it removes the human error from the equation, assuming the boat and crew are set up to do so.  Nathan falling off in bda for example. 

[Kate short for Bob 235]

1 minute ago, JALhazmat said:

it’s the length of time out of position that’s is less than ideal.. hence the rush they are always in. Or should they just amble around and cross when they feel like it? After all it’s only a few seconds.. 

Now you are arguing something different by using a counterfactual.  "Oh if it doesn't matter why don't they stop for a cup tea and a chat in the middle." 

I didn't say crossing was easy or took time just that the time it does take is not as significant as you are making out.  Also I don't believe the gain (whatever that is) would outweigh the disadvantage of having two helmsman!  Now if you are saying that the helmsman doesn't need to cross i.e. steer the boat from one side all the time then that's a bit different but I still don't see any advantage.

6 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

 IF it’s possible to have no switching that’s the best option as by it removes the human error from the equation, assuming the boat and crew are set up to do so.  Nathan falling off in bda for example. 

I don't believe it is the best option - in Bermuda in all the racing we saw only one helmsman fall off.

[Kate short for Bob 235]

I might say as a mainsail trimmer what side offers the best outputs to determine your inputs?

[JALhazmat 942]

Ok it’s not significant. You are 100%right and none of the teams put any emphasis on crew positioning moving around the boat as it’s not significant 

so from an aero perspective people running around in 50kt apparent wind is a good option??

What’s with the bda fascination though? Tell me did Artemis win the race when he fell off? 

[JALhazmat 942]

2 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I might say as a mainsail trimmer what side offers the best outputs to determine your inputs?

 Where ever you want it to be 

[Kate short for Bob 235]

14 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Ok it’s not significant. You are 100%right and none of the teams put any emphasis on crew positioning moving around the boat as it’s not significant 

Again you are putting forward a position that is nonsensical.  Of course the teams are looking at crew position and windage etc.  

14 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

 so from an aero perspective people running around in 50kt apparent wind is a good option??

How do you know it is a bad option?  What apparent wind speed is the tipping point?  As for 50 knots you are assuming that that figure will be the norm.  Maybe they don't need to swap at 50 knots but at 20 knots and light winds maybe it makes a difference.  Does shifting 200kg from one side to another make a difference?

If conditions are light and puffy then I'd want my decision makers on the side of the boat that is the best to make the right decisions.  I know at this elite level these guys are good but trimming a main to its optimum while switching your viewpoint from convex to concave seems mind boggling.

[Indio 784]

5 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Any harder than Bermuda?  Where they also had to run further and over a trampoline.  Even so the consequences of taking a couple of seconds longer is?

Versus the windage penalty of having big blokes sticking out into open air? I'd go with the couple of seconds longer.

[uflux 572]

5 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

so from an aero perspective people running around in 50kt apparent wind is a good option??

The teams seem to do that fine at the moment.... If you believe your boat has an edge. then that could well be a satisfactory trade off if your crew are more comfortable and confident being in traditional positions. 

[barfy 1,056]

As mentioned, it's going to be difficult to find 2x greatest helmsman in the world..look at LR, had to settle for jimmy as second.

[Forourselves 1,008]

7 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Ok... we aren’t in Bermuda are we? Or on AC50s  

out of position Indicates that it is not optimal, why spend more time in non optimal position than needed? 

it’s the length of time out of position that’s is less than ideal.. hence the rush they are always in. Or should they just amble around and cross when they feel like it? After all it’s only a few seconds.. 

IF it’s possible to have no switching that’s the best option as by it removes the human error from the equation, assuming the boat and crew are set up to do so.  Nathan falling off in bda for example. 

If its part of the choreography of the crew work, than it is optimal because it has been planned to happen that way.

Different helmsmen can have different sailing styles, and a different feel for the boat. Its human nature. For example (and its just an example) if ETNZ had Burling on one side, and Dean Barker on the other, the two sides would need to be setup completely different. Dean's feel for the boat, his willingness to push as far as Burling may differ, throw in Burlings sometimes off the cuff decision making with Barkers preference to plan everything he does, means the crew would have to operate two different ways. One helmsman giving instructions is surely a far better alternative. If the crew are constantly changing/ tweaking the way they are doing things, the trim of the boat, the handling of the boat so that the helmsman at the time feels comfortable with his setup, that surely is also not optimal. 

 

[JALhazmat 942]

Look if Kate wants this discussion she should bugger off to the NZ topic as frankly I couldn’t give a shit about her, what she thinks as after all we all have opinions and they all fucking stink, like aresholes.. 

No I am not deliberately finding fault in the NZ design choices, 

yes it is harder to swap sides with what they have chosen and there is a time penalty but the aero trade off is worth it  (for them) and how they are ultimately going to sail it.

the 100% comment? Sarcasm clearly to thick to understand it so that’s on you love. 
 

my only issue is what you sit there spout out utter shit  like ‘what’s it matter if it takes a few seconds longer’ ( paraphrasing) and provide nothing to prove your statement. Why do team train as they do, use mock ups to rehearse crew work if it doesn’t matter 

 

 

[barfy 1,056]

^ dude, you certainly ate the bitter pill today.

[JALhazmat 942]

42 minutes ago, barfy said:

^ dude, you certainly ate the bitter pill today.

Stupid people made me do it. ;-) 

[enigmatically2 485]

42 minutes ago, barfy said:

^ dude, you certainly ate the bitter pill today.

I think you will find that It is the frustration of trying to debate with 4yourselves and Kate/Bob who believe everything that NZ do is perfect, and therefore cannot have a rationale debate. They cannot even accept that all the teams have to make trade-offs and compromises- 2 helmsman vs people swapping sides vs people doing their jobs from a sub-optimal location. Each of those 3 options has disadvantages. But the aforementioned fanboys completely believe that the disadvantage of swapping sides must be negligible because NZ do it. And if NZ change to having 2 helmsman next week then that will be perfect and only they could do it because their team are perfect.

Just like the high sides were risible, and now brilliant for aero

Just like the small thin keel was terrible, but now is brilliant

Just like the articulated boom was wonderful, until B2 went boomless

Just like NZ B1 was almost the finished article and only needed a few tweaks, until B2 was completely different

Whats more they splash their fanboyism all over other team's threads as well

NZ are a strong team and they looked good on day 1. But they don't look so good that other teams "will be standing around open mouthed". After all we have been told by the fanboys that they didn't need the last month sailing because they had the simulator, so they would be fast straight out of the blocks. All the boats look fast. There is nothing so far to suggest that any team has a significant advantage. The Christmas regatta may tell us, but nothing before then will I don't think

 

[barfy 1,056]

^I don't really know where to start with that one..how about: logically.there are two choices, 1 swap helm and flight control from side to side, or 2 have two helms. Choice three falls under choice two.

Anyway, this is the fracker thread as you say, and it will be a cold day in hell before sir Ben relinquishes the helm to someone not knighted. So he'll be running around.

Edit: I just thought of wussel, he could apply

[enigmatically2 485]

1 minute ago, barfy said:

^I don't really know where to start with that one..how about: logically.there are two choices, 1 swap helm and flight control from side to side, or 2 have two helms. Choice three falls under choice two.

Anyway, this is the fracker thread as you say, and it will be a cold day in hell before sir Ben relinquishes the helm to someone not knighted. So he'll be running around.

Choice 3 doesn't fall under choice 2, it is perfectly possible to helm from leeward or windward, thus one could have one helm, who stays put. 

And I didn't realise it was so cold in San Francisco in 2013

[Horn Rock 1,199]

Since this is the Ineos thread, lets talk about how Ineos abandoned their design work with B1, only to see elements of it appear on NZB2. That's got to sting a bit - especially seeing the clever way the Kiwis integrated it. Is it fair to say Ineos lacked the courage of their convictions? Saw everyone else's B1 - freaked out, and started with a clean slate for their B2. Which to me, looks like a good package, but just lacks a bit of the design refinement we're seeing with Te Rehutai.

[barfy 1,056]

1 hour ago, enigmatically2 said:

Choice 3 doesn't fall under choice 2, it is perfectly possible to helm from leeward or windward, thus one could have one helm, who stays put. 

And I didn't realise it was so cold in San Francisco in 2013

Possible but not probable. Helm needs to look to windward.

Ben never had the #1 helm. Had nothing to give up. Tactician on #1 boat was a promotion. 

Ben is a one man program.

[enigmatically2 485]

48 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Since this is the Ineos thread, lets talk about how Ineos abandoned their design work with B1, only to see elements of it appear on NZB2. That's got to sting a bit - especially seeing the clever way the Kiwis integrated it. Is it fair to say Ineos lacked the courage of their convictions? Saw everyone else's B1 - freaked out, and started with a clean slate for their B2. Which to me, looks like a good package, but just lacks a bit of the design refinement we're seeing with Te Rehutai.

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that the simulations drove them down that path, but that real world testing and further simulation showed it was a dead end that didn't produce the optimal answer.  Kind of the like F1 split of low AOA vs high AOA that occurred in the last couple of seasons. The various designers went down 2 quite different strategic routes, only one of which worked out.

Of course one could look at NZ with either of those set of glasses too. They went down a route for B1, which is quite different to where they ended up. Why did they change? Lack of  conviction? Is that stinging them a bit that GB have moved on to something even more radical? 

Who knows. No-one for sure until the christmas regatta I suspect

[enigmatically2 485]

6 minutes ago, barfy said:

Possible but not probable. Helm needs to look to windward.

Ben never had the #1 helm. Had nothing to give up. Tactician on #1 boat was a promotion. 

Ben is a one man program.

Maybe. But then I think GB are the only team with an Olympic gold medal helmsperson to supplement their primary helm. Ben brought Giles in so who knows what he is thinking

[Mozzy Sails 448]

My concern with INEOS is that there wasn't much time between B1 launching and B2 build being signed off. I think the skeg could have been added after (and probably was post Italy design choice and maybe not even in the mould). If you take the wide skeg off Rita 2, then it looks very similar to NZL B1. The chat I got before christmas was that NZL B1 tested best in the simulator of all the boats and I don't think they gained much more confidence in some of their design concepts out in Italy, but B2 had already been signed off by then. 

So, my concern for INEOS would be if they got distracted by how fast NZL (and ITA) were going, and instead focused the models on improving those design philosophies, rather than developing what they had. 

For me, NZL looks like a progression from INEOS B1. The bow is quite different, with a higher sheer line, suggesting more air being pushed to the sides and down on NZL B2. But, the trench is similar,  just taken to the next level with the pods. NZL boomless set up is similar, but just more adjustments and looks far better for it. And the squared off transom is the next level of 'square'. 

Both teams must be slightly uneasy that the other has stepped back from a few key design features. The area of agreement seems to the be wide skeg. 

 

[JonRowe 671]

I see ETNZ B2 as 90% evolution of ETNZ B1 and B1.5, it has the skeg and similar "top down" overall lines from B1, but the bow from the hawk, (which also had slab sides, potentially trialing what they saw in INEOS B1's aero) and then they evidently liked this enough to continue with an evolution of INEOS B1's topside aero.

There was an admission that the mini keel on Rita Mk1 was due to volume (or change percentage?) limits in the rule, so its possible the "sacrifice" of the slab side aero on Rita 2 was due to rule constraints for them to get the moth like big skeg they wanted?

[ed__miller 43]

Looking through the latest photos coming out over the last few days and noticed this strange beam/pole coming out of the top of Ineos headboard or masthead? 
At this angle it looks like it could even be v shaped wings swept aft?  Trying to control tip vortices perhaps? Need to find some views from other angles 

[Sidecar 781]

Leech cameras?

[ed__miller 43]

I see ETNZ2 has them too 

from Wetas pics today 

 

[Stingray~ 1,245]

In a recent Ineos video one of the software guys spoke of ‘ultrasonic’ sensors, among the readings they take. He also said they take on the order of a billion (!) data points on an average sailing day! 

[ed__miller 43]

19 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Leech cameras?

Good shout. Real-time footage to show twist to the trimmer or post sailing analysis to help correlate the millions of sensor loads around the boat to sail shape?  

[chesirecat 435]

10 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

My concern with INEOS is that there wasn't much time between B1 launching and B2 build being signed off. I think the skeg could have been added after (and probably was post Italy design choice and maybe not even in the mould). If you take the wide skeg off Rita 2, then it looks very similar to NZL B1. The chat I got before christmas was that NZL B1 tested best in the simulator of all the boats and I don't think they gained much more confidence in some of their design concepts out in Italy, but B2 had already been signed off by then. 

So, my concern for INEOS would be if they got distracted by how fast NZL (and ITA) were going, and instead focused the models on improving those design philosophies, rather than developing what they had. 

For me, NZL looks like a progression from INEOS B1. The bow is quite different, with a higher sheer line, suggesting more air being pushed to the sides and down on NZL B2. But, the trench is similar,  just taken to the next level with the pods. NZL boomless set up is similar, but just more adjustments and looks far better for it. And the squared off transom is the next level of 'square'. 

Both teams must be slightly uneasy that the other has stepped back from a few key design features. The area of agreement seems to the be wide skeg. 

 

I read in a Cagliari sailing page someone who watched  them on the water, saying Ineos was consistently faster than LR

[Kate short for Bob 235]

16 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

But the aforementioned fanboys completely believe that the disadvantage of swapping sides must be negligible because NZ do it. And if NZ change to having 2 helmsman next week then that will be perfect and only they could do it because their team are perfect.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/123487135/americas-cup-team-new-zealands-clever-new-systems-emerge?cid=app-android

Helmsman Peter Burling, wing controller Glenn Ashy and flight controller Blair Tuke are still changing sides while the grinders remain static.

But their moves now see them darting around in front of the mast rather than across the stern of the boat as they were doing on their first generation boat Te Aihe.

Burling has also shifted his steering position further forward, now situated between two grinding stations.

This will allow him a more smooth ride away from the G-forces hitting the back of the boat during the high speed turns.

It also gives him easier access to the mast zone for his transitions to the windward side of the boat during these turns.

[Forourselves 1,008]

17 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

I think you will find that It is the frustration of trying to debate with 4yourselves and Kate/Bob who believe everything that NZ do is perfect, and therefore cannot have a rationale debate. They cannot even accept that all the teams have to make trade-offs and compromises- 2 helmsman vs people swapping sides vs people doing their jobs from a sub-optimal location. Each of those 3 options has disadvantages. But the aforementioned fanboys completely believe that the disadvantage of swapping sides must be negligible because NZ do it. And if NZ change to having 2 helmsman next week then that will be perfect and only they could do it because their team are perfect.

Just like the high sides were risible, and now brilliant for aero

Just like the small thin keel was terrible, but now is brilliant

Just like the articulated boom was wonderful, until B2 went boomless

Just like NZ B1 was almost the finished article and only needed a few tweaks, until B2 was completely different

Whats more they splash their fanboyism all over other team's threads as well

NZ are a strong team and they looked good on day 1. But they don't look so good that other teams "will be standing around open mouthed". After all we have been told by the fanboys that they didn't need the last month sailing because they had the simulator, so they would be fast straight out of the blocks. All the boats look fast. There is nothing so far to suggest that any team has a significant advantage. The Christmas regatta may tell us, but nothing before then will I don't think

 

Oh FFS. We all know all of the teams make/ made trade offs. You mention “fanboys” saying this and that... as soon as that boat came out the door, haters like you said “oh they copied INEOS” like that actually happened. Just like when the boat was announced they said “that boat will never work” just like they said Te Aihe had “major structural issues” because they saw a reflection, just like they said “They’ve been off the water for 5 weeks so they obviously have issues” and “They’re way behind the other teams”. We can even go back to Bermuda when simulators would never be an effective training platform and bikes were no better than grinders. Yeah right.

[Stingray~ 1,245]

10 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

haters like you

Don’t you just love buying into the ‘everybody hates us’ and ‘everybody is attacking us’ ethos that GD admits that he uses a motivational driving force?
 

Lol, you do swallow hard! 

[Forourselves 1,008]

13 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Don’t you just love buying into the ‘everybody hates us’ and ‘everybody is attacking us’ ethos that GD admits that he uses a motivational driving force?
 

Lol, you do swallow hard! 

Coming from the guy who thinks the boat that got its ass kicked 8 races to 1 was clearly faster because his “fun little database” told him so lol 

[Stingray~ 1,245]

Just now, Forourselves said:

Coming from the guy who thinks the boat that got its ass kicked 8 races to 1 was clearly faster because his “fun little database” told him so lol 

When people ask ‘how fast does it go?’ they mean top speed. It’s a very normal definition of ‘fast.’

ETNZ in Bermuda was for sure ‘fast’ but recorded only the 4th highest top speed out of 6 boats there, yes including by VMG to the mark and VMG to the TWA. And yes, my database could answer that and plenty of other questions, am so looking forward to your version for AC36  

[Forourselves 1,008]

6 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

When people ask ‘how fast does it go?’ they mean top speed. It’s a very normal definition of ‘fast.’

ETNZ in Bermuda was for sure ‘fast’ but recorded only the 4th highest top speed out of 6 boats there, yes including by VMG to the mark and VMG to the TWA. And yes, my database could answer that and plenty of other questions, am so looking forward to your version for AC36  

Lol No they don’t! Winning is ALL that matters! When you’re watching a race between 2 boats and one keeps winning, and winning convincingly, that boat is ALWAYS faster. If the racing was close you might have a case but it was a demolition job. A “caning” as Ken Read put it. No one cares about top speed because it’s instantaneous and relative to the conditions and doesn’t contribute in any way to the outcome of a race. The only database that’s in any way relevant is the scoreboard.

[Kate short for Bob 235]

15 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

When people ask ‘how fast does it go?’ they mean top speed. It’s a very normal definition of ‘fast.’

ETNZ in Bermuda was for sure ‘fast’ but recorded only the 4th highest top speed out of 6 boats there, yes including by VMG to the mark and VMG to the TWA. And yes, my database could answer that and plenty of other questions, am so looking forward to your version for AC36  

So if they were the "slowest" how did they win?

Also as for slowest VMG and top speed is that in the races they lost or are you comparing the entire population dataset against single events?  If the latter it sounds as accurate as Covid-19 research.

[weta27 3,956]

Last night

[Forourselves 1,008]

1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

When people ask ‘how fast does it go?’ they mean top speed. It’s a very normal definition of ‘fast.’

ETNZ in Bermuda was for sure ‘fast’ but recorded only the 4th highest top speed out of 6 boats there, yes including by VMG to the mark and VMG to the TWA. And yes, my database could answer that and plenty of other questions, am so looking forward to your version for AC36  

So, if someone runs a slightly faster 50m time than Usain Bolt, then gets absolutely smoked by 100 meters, does that make them faster than Usain Bolt over 100 meters?

[kenergy 465]

2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

So, if someone runs a slightly faster 50m time than Usain Bolt, then gets absolutely smoked by 100 meters, does that make them faster than Usain Bolt over 100 meters?

Motor racing is probably a better comparison. 

Fastest lap vs winner over  60, 80, 200 laps.

Its average speed that wins races. 

[Forourselves 1,008]

I'm picking a Luna Rossa/ Ineos Team UK Challenger final. Who emerges from that tussle as winner is anyone's guess. But my preference would be INEOS. LR for me, would have to be a lot faster than INEOS Team UK to beat them, which IMO I don't think they are, or will be.

Jimmy Spithill v Ben Ainslie is an exciting prospect, but in an equal or faster boat, I'd pick Ben Ainslie and Giles Scott all day long. 

[enigmatically2 485]

7 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Oh FFS. We all know all of the teams make/ made trade offs. You mention “fanboys” saying this and that... as soon as that boat came out the door, haters like you said “oh they copied INEOS” like that actually happened. Just like when the boat was announced they said “that boat will never work” just like they said Te Aihe had “major structural issues” because they saw a reflection, just like they said “They’ve been off the water for 5 weeks so they obviously have issues” and “They’re way behind the other teams”. We can even go back to Bermuda when simulators would never be an effective training platform and bikes were no better than grinders. Yeah right.

Stupid strawman is stupid

Did I say that NZ copied GB (except as a joke)- no, I just said they were alike

Did I say "that boat will never work" - no

Did I say Te Aihe had structural issues due to damage on the hull -no

did I say they were way behind other teams - no

Did I say bikes were no better than grinders - no

So you are 0 for 5. Whereas you consistently say that there are no similarities between NZ2 and the GB boats - despite every independent observer concluding differently; you denied there could possibly be any damage to the NZ1 steering column even after the team announced there was You have consistently argued that NZ were benefitting from more time on the water early on, but didn't lose anything from absence on the water later.

So if they all make trade-offs, perhaps you could explain where you think the trade-offs NZ have made on boat 2 is a dis-benefit?

[kiwi39 44]

2 hours ago, kenergy said:

Motor racing is probably a better comparison. 

Fastest lap vs winner over  60, 80, 200 laps.

Its average speed that wins races. 

Agreed.

Mercedes seldom have the fastest top speed. But they’ve consistently got the highest one lap (quali) and race speed. 

you would definitely say they’re fast ...
 

 

[Forourselves 1,008]

18 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Stupid strawman is stupid

Did I say that NZ copied GB (except as a joke)- no, I just said they were alike

Did I say "that boat will never work" - no

Did I say Te Aihe had structural issues due to damage on the hull -no

did I say they were way behind other teams - no

Did I say bikes were no better than grinders - no

So you are 0 for 5. Whereas you consistently say that there are no similarities between NZ2 and the GB boats - despite every independent observer concluding differently; you denied there could possibly be any damage to the NZ1 steering column even after the team announced there was You have consistently argued that NZ were benefitting from more time on the water early on, but didn't lose anything from absence on the water later.

So if they all make trade-offs, perhaps you could explain where you think the trade-offs NZ have made on boat 2 is a dis-benefit?

Did I say NZ was perfect? No.

Did I say the high sides were risible, and now brilliant for aero? No.

Did I say the small thin keel was terrible, but now is brilliant? No.

Did I say the articulated boom was wonderful, until B2 went boomless? No.

Did I say NZ B1 was almost the finished article and only needed a few tweaks? No.

Te Rehutai is undoubtedly fast out of the blocks. On the water observers are so far impressed with what they saw of Te Rehutai. Considering it was the first day sailing in 5 weeks, the first day certainly was as good if not better than the first day of the other Boat 2's. That much is for certain, so it stands to reason that the team hasn't missed anything in the last 5 weeks, or to put it another way, the Challengers haven't gained significantly on the Defender in the last 5 weeks.

Call me a fanboy all you like... beats fence sitting cos you're too scared to pick a team to support.

[Mozzy Sails 448]

8 hours ago, chesirecat said:

I read in a Cagliari sailing page someone who watched  them on the water, saying Ineos was consistently faster than LR

Oh, then I guess it's even stranger. A poor showing in cagliari coupled with NZL modelling well in their sim would be a good explanation from their divergence from the original concept. 

I think the second boat was probably decided upon before much (or any?) sailing in cagliari. 

[Indio 784]

1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

I'm picking a Luna Rossa/ Ineos Team UK Challenger final. Who emerges from that tussle as winner is anyone's guess. But my preference would be INEOS. LR for me, would have to be a lot faster than INEOS Team UK to beat them, which IMO I don't think they are, or will be.

Jimmy Spithill v Ben Ainslie is an exciting prospect, but in an equal or faster boat, I'd pick Ben Ainslie and Giles Scott all day long. 

That's a semi-final with the winner to race Team-AM in the Prada Cup Final, before Team-AM loses valiantly to ETNZ in the Match

[Forourselves 1,008]

7 hours ago, Indio said:

That's a semi-final with the winner to race Team-AM in the Prada Cup Final, before Team-AM loses valiantly to ETNZ in the Match

I think it will go the way it always goes with Dean Barker. His team will be well trained and well polished and probably win a few of the races at the start, maybe convincingly, but once the urgency kicks in from the other teams, once they learn how to race their boats properly, make the necessary mods to their boats, and fulfill their boats potential, they'll pass American Magic.

[JALhazmat 942]

Ah yes dean not having designed the boat properly conundrum..

[Forourselves 1,008]

2 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Ah yes dean not having designed the boat properly conundrum..

His track record speaks for itself. 

[JALhazmat 942]

1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

His track record speaks for itself. 

As a designer? Lol 
he was good enough to get you 8-1 in San Fran 

The shore team let him and the sailing team down. You can’t fight a faster boat. And your team proved that point in BDA 

[chesirecat 435]

9 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Oh, then I guess it's even stranger. A poor showing in cagliari coupled with NZL modelling well in their sim would be a good explanation from their divergence from the original concept. 

I think the second boat was probably decided upon before much (or any?) sailing in cagliari. 

Yep. They probably discovered quite a bit in the Solent (but then who doesn't!) and then the F1 team and huge amounts of computing power comes onboard. B1 had the aero flow inside the boat  - like ETNZ now whereas B2 has now outside the hull. I suspect they discovered some critical stuff with that huge splashdown in Cagliari.

[Forourselves 1,008]

16 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

As a designer? Lol 
he was good enough to get you 8-1 in San Fran 

The shore team let him and the sailing team down. You can’t fight a faster boat. And your team proved that point in BDA 

Ashby was skipper in 2017 and again (I assume) this time, and he’s had significant input into the direction of the design ie bikes, wing control etc, again in sail design and trim, and no doubt hull design as well. How much input does/ has Barker had in campaigns he has led? 

[Indio 784]

2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

I think it will go the way it always goes with Dean Barker. His team will be well trained and well polished and probably win a few of the races at the start, maybe convincingly, but once the urgency kicks in from the other teams, once they learn how to race their boats properly, make the necessary mods to their boats, and fulfill their boats potential, they'll pass American Magic.

So in your delusional vision, Team-NYYC are just going to sit on Patriot with their toes in the water with handlines over the side and watch the other teams "..learn how to race their boats properly, make the necessary mods to their boats, and fulfill their boats potential, (and) pass American Magic.."?? You need to stop wanking.

Of all the Challengers, the Team-NYYC's Hutchinson-Barker team is the only one to have experienced success in any Challenger Selection Series: with ETNZ in Valencia, and that was against 11 competitors.

I'm confident with my ETNZ-Vs-Team AM AC match.

[rh3000 1,494]

14 minutes ago, Indio said:

I'm confident with my ETNZ-Vs-Team AM AC match.

I agree...

It's a *very* had prediction to make, as there is so little comparison known, and all of the teams are at a very high level, but if I had to pick out of the challengers I'd say

1. AM
2. LR
3. ITU

But again, I don't feel very strongly about this (yet). Could just as easily be reversed...

[nav 476]

27 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Ashby was skipper in 2017 and again (I assume) this time, and he’s had significant input into the direction of the design ie bikes, wing control etc, again in sail design and trim, and no doubt hull design as well. How much input does/ has Barker had in campaigns he has led? 

Not this time, the 'older and wiser' PB has been tagged as skipper by the team, although they are not going on about it - nor have they made an official announcement afaik......

[Forourselves 1,008]

59 minutes ago, Indio said:

So in your delusional vision, Team-NYYC are just going to sit on Patriot with their toes in the water with handlines over the side and watch the other teams "..learn how to race their boats properly, make the necessary mods to their boats, and fulfill their boats potential, (and) pass American Magic.."?? You need to stop wanking.

Of all the Challengers, the Team-NYYC's Hutchinson-Barker team is the only one to have experienced success in any Challenger Selection Series: with ETNZ in Valencia, and that was against 11 competitors.

I'm confident with my ETNZ-Vs-Team AM AC match.

No but history doesn’t bode well for first time teams in the AC unless you buy the previous Defender. History doesn’t bode well for Dean Barker in the AC either, or TH for that matter. Can they break the hoodoo as part of a first time team this time? Time will tell. But history suggests No. 

Great that you’re confident with your pick, as I am with mine, mainly because Ainslie will have learned lessons from last time, he has hired guys like Simmer, Iain Jensen who know how to win, and he managed to demolish the SailGP fleet in his first outing. 

[weta27 3,956]

Since seeing Te Rehutai in action, and following the discussion about similarities with Britannia's keel, I've started to notice that Britannia actually spends a lot of her time flying with her keel a significant height above the water.

Are they getting maximum benefit from that keel if they don't seal the gap under the boat??

Or do they only need that low-riding attitude upwind?

[Chris UK 92]

Poor old Dean Barker. Probably wonders on to SA forum and thinks, "Ah, I better avoid the AM pages in case i'm being slagged off....and better avoid the ENTZ pages in case people are still going on about frisco....I know, I'll go to the INEOS pages, surely I'll be safe from assassination there....i've never had anything to do with them.......OH BOLLOCKS!!!!!" 

[NZL3481 372]

2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Ashby was skipper in 2017 and again (I assume) this time, and he’s had significant input into the direction of the design ie bikes, wing control etc, again in sail design and trim, and no doubt hull design as well. How much input does/ has Barker had in campaigns he has led? 

Barker is the true one-trick pony...

[Boybland 515]

13 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Since seeing Te Rehutai in action, and following the discussion about similarities with Britannia's keel, I've started to notice that Britannia actually spends a lot of her time flying with her keel a significant height above the water.

Are they getting maximum benefit from that keel if they don't seal the gap under the boat??

If they are off the wind it probably doesn't matter so much, also the windier it is.  There is definitely some very nice footage off them right down low in light conditions.

[MastaVonBlasta 103]

13 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Since seeing Te Rehutai in action, and following the discussion about similarities with Britannia's keel, I've started to notice that Britannia actually spends a lot of her time flying with her keel a significant height above the water.

Are they getting maximum benefit from that keel if they don't seal the gap under the boat??

Was this photo taken when they were sailing downwind?

In the very first weeks of Rita 2 sailing it definitely looked that they were really low down and heeling windward. Have they learned something new?

I was going to do a sketch of how the hull sealing and the down-wash spray could be effective in generating some lift, but that spray would be a result of a shape that's much less efficient than a wing, creating a big separation.

It's so interesting eating all these comments about team ranks, while no one really knows... ETNZ certainly look very impressive from day one with their quite radical and clever Boat 2, but did people expect them to be weak?

I CANNOT wait for the Xmas Reggatas!

[mogs 94]

10 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Are they getting maximum benefit from that keel if they don't seal the gap under the boat??

In the transition certainly, I assume they're depowering once they're up there anyway (see very straight battens at the top of the rig).

That said, I suspect the little keel-on-a-keel on Te Rehutai might generate vortices as the air flows under it, possibly the hard chines on the bottom of Britannia's keel might have a similar effect. This may effectively extend the influence of the keel into the airspace below?

[MastaVonBlasta 103]

 

[JALhazmat 942]

High tide height down wind low upwind seems to be a common theme on all boats.

that vid above and the newest ineos one by airflow nz certainly have ineos working in the light stuff 

[weta27 3,956]

49 minutes ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

Was this photo taken when they were sailing downwind?

Yes, they were sailing a similar height both across and downwind that evening. Definitely sitting lower upwind.

However for apparent wind boats in light conditions like these, does upwind/downwind matter that much? Wouldn't the same principles apply and wouldn't you want all the power you can muster, whichever direction?

[The_Alchemist 1,102]

27 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

High tide height down wind low upwind seems to be a common theme on all boats.

that vid above and the newest ineos one by airflow nz certainly have ineos working in the light stuff 

That is exactly what Max said.  He said that low and nose down when going upwind and then high with the minimum foil arm in the water going downwind.

[The_Alchemist 1,102]

15 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Yes, they were sailing a similar height both across and downwind that evening. Definitely sitting lower upwind.

However for apparent wind boats in light conditions like these, does upwind/downwind matter that much? Wouldn't the same principles apply and wouldn't you want all the power you can muster, whichever direction?

yes, according to Max

[weta27 3,956]

I had the idea that in light breeze, these boats are always going upwind??

[chesirecat 435]

7 hours ago, weta27 said:

Since seeing Te Rehutai in action, and following the discussion about similarities with Britannia's keel, I've started to notice that Britannia actually spends a lot of her time flying with her keel a significant height above the water.

Are they getting maximum benefit from that keel if they don't seal the gap under the boat??

Or do they only need that low-riding attitude upwind?

Possibly more to do with reducing foil/rudder drag. Upwind speed of 30 plus knots v downwind 40 plus where drag would be extra critical. Now if they could get the bulb out of the water downwind  . . . .  Oh and dont need or want the same lateral resistance downwind.

[Sailbydate 2,401]

3 hours ago, weta27 said:

I had the idea that in light breeze, these boats are always going upwind??

In all breezes, I believe.

[Lat35sowth 57]

12 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Ashby was skipper in 2017 and again (I assume) this time, and he’s had significant input into the direction of the design ie bikes, wing control etc, again in sail design and trim, and no doubt hull design as well. How much input does/ has Barker had in campaigns he has led? 

He probably organises the teams discount clothing

[Lakrass 148]

9 hours ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

 

Interesting to see how late Ineos is dropping their arm and foil in the maneuver, they are basically half way through the turn in some cases, can't recall seeing that from other team and had the impression everyone dropped before starting the turn (as ETNZ is doing in the same vid). 

[enigmatically2 485]

I've seen ETNZ and LR dropping it that late too. I was interested that NZ and GB both seemed to practice some mark rounding turns. Both seemed pretty fast and stable (I'm assuming that N at 1.35 was deliberate, though it is a bit of a strange stop)

[dorox 108]

Handheld controllers are the new norm. Is this the main trimmer?

 

[enigmatically2 485]

Not entirely sure what the advantages are of handheld controller in this context

WRT to the video, on the first tack the old foil is lifted very early - starts just as the jib sets on the new side. Looks a fraction of a second early to me as they dip and just kiss the water. But they are looking increasingly slick

[MastaVonBlasta 103]

I've also noticed that as they're heading into a tack, there are two guys looking directly at foils 

 

In this clip they're doing back-to-back tacks and don't bother with helm, wing trimmer and flight controller running over to the new windward side. They stick around and do another tack 23s later.

From what I can see the very aft guy is looking at the mainsail and as spotted above seems to be holding a controller, then there's the helmsman and foil controller.

As they go through a tack the grinder no 3 seems to be letting go off the handles and controls the jib through the tack

[JALhazmat 942]

36 minutes ago, dorox said:

Handheld controllers are the new norm. Is this the main trimmer?

 

tendency to bring the old foil half way out to aid lift and stability as they settle to the new tack.

seems to limit/ remove the front to back rocking and bow/stern touch, most teams are doing this now rather than the immediate arm lift especially in the lighter air

 

also no crew moved in that sequence..

[luminary 34]

2 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

tendency to bring the old foil half way out to aid lift and stability as they settle to the new tack.

seems to limit/ remove the front to back rocking and bow/stern touch, most teams are doing this now rather than the immediate arm lift especially in the lighter air

 

also no crew moved in that sequence..

isnt there something in the regs that says that the windward foil has to be out before ??? time or distance after a maneuver?

[The_Alchemist 1,102]

Wonder if that is just a quick combination of maneuvers instead of what they will do all the time.  They keep 7 crew on the starboard side with only 4 on the port.  Maybe they figure the VMG is so good that they can get away with riding on just one side for most of the length of the course.

[MastaVonBlasta 103]

(don't think it's been posted yet?)

[JALhazmat 942]

the video further up the page, the split video with ETNZ also shows minimal crew movement on INEOS, (less than NZ are doing with the fancy pods)

it only looks like Main trimmer is swapping sides? if at all

 

I think there is something on the foil deployment side of things but with all the teams seemingly doing it/trying it, its likely within limits 

 

and there is the video above proving that analysis from one vid to the next is impossible, crew swaps all over the show on that one ! 

[SimonN 225]

On 11/25/2020 at 6:16 AM, nav said:

Not this time, the 'older and wiser' PB has been tagged as skipper by the team, although they are not going on about it - nor have they made an official announcement afaik......

PB might be tagged as skipper, but Glenn is his boss. Having seen Glenn, Pete and Blair working together, I think this discussion is probably mute as they don't really see a distinction between themselves, which is probably why they are all just listed as "sailor".

[Stingray~ 1,245]

AWS

 

[JALhazmat 942]

well off the pace.. 

[Rushman 218]

37 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

well off the pace.. 

I think you forgot the purple font 

[Wandering Geo 45]

2 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

well off the pace.. 

Hmmm........possibly.

AM much farther away, small jib downwind.

Seemed to be staying about level.

Obviously impossible for us to know about windspeed, direction, sandbagging etc.

Won't really know until the racing starts 

[dorox 108]

Finally a good shot of the main top control device

[JALhazmat 942]

54 minutes ago, Wandering Geo said:

Hmmm........possibly.

AM much farther away, small jib downwind.

Seemed to be staying about level.

Obviously impossible for us to know about windspeed, direction, sandbagging etc.

Won't really know until the racing starts 

Went around two separate marks  on to the same tack, ineos pulled away, camera panned out to accomodate the gap getting bigger

AM then gybes later on but Ineos continued deep and fast

different jib size? Yup and likely different set ups when the racing starts too 

my pace comment was tongue in cheek after a few people were saying “ my mate who’s friend heard from a guy in a bar” that ineos were more  more fucked than a $10 hooker in terms of speed. 

[NZL3481 372]

2 hours ago, dorox said:

Finally a good shot of the main top control device