Stingray~

INEOS Team GB

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1 hour ago, Priscilla said:

How on earth is that spar going to bend.

Am I missing sarcasm here?

We saw & discussed the hinge mechanism shortly after the launch & a nice drawing was produced (by @buckdouger I think?) which fits the visible evidence very well

8SDrHBG.png

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No sarcasm - I'd lost track of what had been discussed and forgotten about this forward hinge section. Things are much clearer now.

 

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5 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Yup. 

A2899D05-D1B2-4436-90FD-564C81DB70A5.jpeg

In the “how on earth” series: how does LR manage mainsail camber from under the deck, with slots that looked nowhere as long (cross-wise) as it would seem necessary?

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1 hour ago, Xlot said:

In the “how on earth” series: how does LR manage mainsail camber from under the deck, with slots that looked nowhere as long (cross-wise) as it would seem necessary?

There is a photo posted recently which confirms that the cross wise slots are not wide enough to contact the sail at high camber settings. Can't recall where ATM. 

One possibility, ignoring how it could be made to comply with rules is a chordwise forward movement of the batten ends/sail, pulling the TE toward the mast, but it doesn't seem to involve things under the deck. 

Not sure how credible or not such clues are that leak out. Any sense being on the ground 'locally'? 

 

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2 minutes ago, buckdouger said:

Any sense being on the ground 'locally'? 

Am planning to take the ferry to Sardinia as soon as the Kiwis arrive. Whether I’ll manage to pull some strings to get anywhere near the boats is another matter ...

 

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15 hours ago, barfy said:

Upon zooming further I can see that slender bit as well, so I agree the top assembly is load distribution.

Still, how does the "mainsheet" assembly get tension?

Not very certain on this but I believe the ram is either on the traveler car itself

I don't think they could be leading the mainsheet forward as that would seriously mess with the camber adjustment down low. 

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8 hours ago, NZK said:

Fair point - I guess I thought I'd seen pictures showing enough camber to require the boom to bend and was assuming (hoping?) the Kiwis had come up with something very special that appeared to be a solid spar but had ability to flex above the norm.... 

Dreams are free.

Te Kahu is not boomless by the look of things so TNZ seem committed to its positives.

I wonder if the Handbags forestay failed due to the loads of their boomless set up.

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1 hour ago, Priscilla said:

I wonder if the Handbags forestay failed due to the loads of their boomless set up.

I wonder if the buttons of my Prada shorts failed due to the loads of my boom setup.

If you could care to draw a simple vector diagram of your hypothesis, then I will show you mine.

 

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5 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

I wonder if the buttons of my Prada shorts failed due to the loads of my boom setup.

If you could care to draw a simple vector diagram of your hypothesis, then I will show you mine.

 

It's probably more likely that the failure is due to excessive bussle, certainty the reason in my case:P

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Just thinking without a boom to assist with out haul loads the main sheet is now the sole source of leach and foot control.

Headstay loads must be phenomenal.

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5 hours ago, RMac said:

Not very certain on this but I believe the ram is either on the traveler car itself

I don't think they could be leading the mainsheet forward as that would seriously mess with the camber adjustment down low. 

Again,I would think if that small diameter black bit that runs from the traveller to the orange strops is a ram, you would see hydraulic lines with enough play to enable traveller movement. 

And yes, leading the sheet forward seems to have problems.Maybe only forward to the last third of the foot that doesn't as much camber, and have a ram there.

I'm out of guess, and the hive mind hasn't produced. I give up until better photos.

 

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Just now, Priscilla said:

Just thinking without a boom to assist with out haul loads the main sheet is now the sole source of leach and foot control.

Headstay loads must be phenomenal.

OK, I see what you are hinting at, and agree that it will make a difference in headstay load. But the vector diagram in my head also has an increased vertical mainsheet load which also leads  to more headstay tension. In the end the rig designers surely will have it all calculated in 10 decimals.

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

OK, I see what you are hinting at, and agree that it will make a difference in headstay load. But the vector diagram in my head also has an increased vertical mainsheet load which also leads  to more headstay tension. In the end the rig designers surely will have it all calculated in 10 decimals.

 

 

That’s what they always say....

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1 hour ago, Fiji Bitter said:

OK, I see what you are hinting at, and agree that it will make a difference in headstay load. But the vector diagram in my head also has an increased vertical mainsheet load which also leads  to more headstay tension. In the end the rig designers surely will have it all calculated in 10 decimals.

How does vertical main sheet load equal 'increased' headstay load? Wouldn't that main sheet load vector arrow be pointing pretty much towards the masthead?

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

https://www.sail-world.com/news/226342/Two-top-Aussies-aboard-Ainslies-SailGP-crew

SailGP: Six Olympic Gold Medals in Brit's SailGP crew for 2020

Nation v Nation lol

Well at least 2 of them get to stop pretending to be "Japan Team."  Ainslie apparently has a "developing" team lol. What a load SGP is. Hope Ben wins the Cup and Ratcliffe kicks SGP to,the curb after a year.

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14 hours ago, Liquid said:

How does vertical main sheet load equal 'increased' headstay load? Wouldn't that main sheet load vector arrow be pointing pretty much towards the masthead?

I guess he is hinting on an effect similar to the effect of a mast ram in a dragon or star.(more headstay tension when you pull the undersection backwards-> will straighten the undersection of the mast) Because you will have to put in some horizontal force to shape the sail you automatically pull the understection of the mast backwards and with that you increase headstay tension.

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The only mainsheet load that gets shared with the forestay goes through the leech to the mast first

I think the outhaul effect is managed with some very interesting battens, and that compression load goes right into the spar down low

I think some of the best trickle down tech is going to relate to battens and luff hardware. 

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18 hours ago, Liquid said:

How does vertical main sheet load equal 'increased' headstay load? Wouldn't that main sheet load vector arrow be pointing pretty much towards the masthead?

Sheet tension pulls the sail down, which pulls the mast aft, which tensions the forestay. Happens in most sailboats that have a mast and a forestay and a mainsheet.

 

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4 minutes ago, nroose said:

Sheet tension pulls the sail down, which pulls the mast aft, which tensions the forestay. Happens in most sailboats that have a mast and a forestay and a mainsheet.

... and the resulting main sheet vector arrow would be down not up

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1 minute ago, Liquid said:

... and the resulting main sheet vector arrow would be down not up

Down from the clew. Up from the deck...

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22 hours ago, Woolfy said:

It's probably more likely that the failure is due to excessive bussle, certainty the reason in my case:P

 

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49 minutes ago, nroose said:

Sheet tension pulls the sail down, which pulls the mast aft, which tensions the forestay. Happens in most sailboats that have a mast and a forestay and a mainsheet.

 

Of course, but why would this rig have more leech load than the same size sail with a regular boom?

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3 hours ago, RMac said:

Of course, but why would this rig have more leech load than the same size sail with a regular boom?

Exactly.

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5 hours ago, RMac said:

Of course, but why would this rig have more leech load than the same size sail with a regular boom?

Seems like that the boom helps with some of the foot tension and adds some leverage directly on the bottom of the mast, and without the boom, all of that is on the rest of the sail and on the forestay.

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On 2/8/2020 at 3:26 AM, Xlot said:

Am planning to take the ferry to Sardinia as soon as the Kiwis arrive. Whether I’ll manage to pull some strings to get anywhere near the boats is another matter ...

Nice. Good to know you're on it Xlot!

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10 hours ago, RMac said:

Of course, but why would this rig have more leech load than the same size sail with a regular boom?

Maybe because it's an apparent wind rig that needs the sail plywood flat for minimum drag? So not just leach, but outhaul as well. Someone else draw the vectors please :P

 

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8 hours ago, barfy said:

Maybe because it's an apparent wind rig that needs the sail plywood flat for minimum drag? So not just leach, but outhaul as well. Someone else draw the vectors please :P

 

The sails that have so much depth down low the booms articulate?

That's a joke, but I still don't see any reason why the foot tension would get transferred to the leech

 

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5 hours ago, RMac said:

The sails that have so much depth down low the booms articulate?

That's a joke, but I still don't see any reason why the foot tension would get transferred to the leech

 

If you don't have a boom that can handle the compression, or no boom at all, wouldn't some of the foot tension end up as leach tension because of the purchase angle of the main ram or block?

I just threw out foot tension as another way these sails are hyper stressed, but now you got me thinking.. Pleas someone else draw arrows? :unsure:

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A boom allows changes in the draft of the sail with the outhaul, (as per ETNZs boom) while maintaining a more stable leech tension.

With no boom (thus no outhaul control) as soon as you introduce draft you significantly reduce leech tension...and vice versa. 

Essentially you have less tools in your boxe to get the optimal sails shape at any given moment

 

 

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"Leech tension" is sort of a simplification. The tension is all through the sail. If you have to pull the clew aft with the sheet rather than the outhaul, that tension goes from being compression of the boom to being tension between the sheet and the forestay.

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1 hour ago, uflux said:

A boom allows changes in the draft of the sail with the outhaul, (as per ETNZs boom) while maintaining a more stable leech tension.

With no boom (thus no outhaul control) as soon as you introduce draft you significantly reduce leech tension...and vice versa. 

Essentially you have less tools in your boxe to get the optimal sails shape at any given moment

 

 

This is what I was alluding to. With a hinged boom or no boom outhaul gets vectored into leach tension, or just over all main tension. 

Not the original discussion but worth speculating about how this happens with no boom.

Edit: wonder how well the hinge boom takes compression loads, like an out haul.

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48 minutes ago, nroose said:

"Leech tension" is sort of a simplification. The tension is all through the sail. If you have to pull the clew aft with the sheet rather than the outhaul, that tension goes from being compression of the boom to being tension between the sheet and the forestay.

Ok let’s call it leech shape...:mellow:

Having no boom reduces your ability to independently “shape” the leech in respect to the draft. Which has a massive affect in terms of potential speed and drag when you sail with such a high apparent wind angle

6E242CF0-0419-48AD-97FA-8C65D7221543.jpeg

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16 hours ago, barfy said:

 

I'm of the opinion that the mainsheet can't and doesn't do much to tension the foot here. It would need to be straight aft of the connection point to do much. If you like, picture a reef point being trimmed on: until the cringle gets tight to the boom, it's pulling down, only when it's all the way down does the new foot get tight

 

Or more simply: which way does the mainsheet point? That's where the load goes.

 

I think it's done with compression members like battens or booms, at least until I see a line or ram pulling straight aft

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As we never do, or will, see any of the special sauce except the bit of clew, I reckon this aspect will be just like magic for this entire cycle.

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Maybe its a generational thing and flat is no longer fast.

Is this how millennials close reach with traveller up.

Main looks fucking awful and in my thinking to flatten it out the mainsheet load will simply transfer to the mast via the batten cars and thereby onto the forestay.

That double skin setup represents twice the out haul foot load at minimum and its going to end up where without a boom.

 

FA272E0F-3BC2-43D3-9D5B-C2D4DACDBF54.jpeg.afb9bafffca337948e62c94a3de9ebbc.jpeg.56a9462ee5059226e79cf74b8093c694.jpeg 

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17 minutes ago, uflux said:

Ok let’s call it leech shape...:mellow:

Having no boom reduces your ability to independently “shape” the leech in respect to the draft. Which has a massive affect in terms of potential speed and drag when you sail with such a high apparent wind angle

 

Just change the location the main sheet is attached to on the deck or on the sail and you have the control of that.

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^ someone on here said wrinkles are there to tell you how the sail is working, or some such. :D

 but as to camber I don't think any amount of batten is going to enable going from deep draft like this shot, to low drag flat.

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Just now, nroose said:

Just change the location the main sheet is attached to on the deck or on the sail and you have the control of that.

What, to a tower stuck on the transom?

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1 minute ago, barfy said:

What, to a tower stuck on the transom?

With a sail that has that high an aspect ratio, it would just be a few inches fore and aft under the clew.

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On 2/7/2020 at 11:37 PM, hoom said:

Am I missing sarcasm here?

We saw & discussed the hinge mechanism shortly after the launch & a nice drawing was produced (by @buckdouger I think?) which fits the visible evidence very well

8SDrHBG.png

Although that is a serious chunky hinge

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They try to recreate the wing camber with a soft sail, I guess AM will do it too. But this soft sail will probably end up being much more complicated and expensive than a wing.

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35 minutes ago, nroose said:

Just change the location the main sheet is attached to on the deck or on the sail and you have the control of that.

Please go the the Maxon video of ETNZ and carefully watch what the boom adjustments do to the shape  at around 023-028 sec into the video. That short moment alone will demonstrate what we are trying to explain .

then consider that the adjustments are occurring independently between sail skins and what that potentially does to the aero shape of the sail plan. Then tell me INEOS is not a tractor :blink:

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50 minutes ago, nroose said:

Just change the location the main sheet is attached to on the deck or on the sail and you have the control of that.

You would run out of boat first.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

They try to recreate the wing camber with a soft sail, I guess AM will do it too. But this soft sail will probably end up being much more complicated and expensive than a wing.

At least you can lower it instead of backing the boat down for ten miles from the course if the wind gets up to unsafe. Like OR had to do in bda, but only a couple miles I believe. 

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1 hour ago, Priscilla said:

WoodBumpkin.thumb.jpg.db4ea4ecdd77448a7be3fd4e282db0d2.jpg

You picked one of the greatest boats of all time to make that point. I had a similar-sized old yawl in the 1970s and early '80s, with the same arrangement for the mizzen sheet. It was also a handy place to fly the ensign at anchor, from the end of the boomkin up to the end of the mizzen boom.

In the case above, they also have a fitting on the side of the boomkin to serve as the pivot point for the passarelle for Med-mooring. That's what I call multi-tasking.

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57 minutes ago, barfy said:

At least you can lower it instead of backing the boat down for ten miles from the course if the wind gets up to unsafe. Like OR had to do in bda, but only a couple miles I believe. 

Correct, a reefing of the soft sail would make a considerable improvement vs the wing, mainly if they can get the performances close to the wing.

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2 hours ago, barfy said:

^ someone on here said wrinkles are there to tell you how the sail is working, or some such. :D

 but as to camber I don't think any amount of batten is going to enable going from deep draft like this shot, to low drag flat.

Creases help show what is happening. Important diagnostics in any rig.

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58 minutes ago, ed__miller said:

Sir Jim has just announced he has added Mercedes F1 to his stable of sports teams sponsorship as ‘official principal partner’ whatever that means ... live stream of presser here

https://youtu.be/ssvUlKUay5s

 

 

Yep, and they give a first look of their 2020 livery.
Whatever that may be...
Ineos.PNG.60b8d1cfc26d7e43b6ea8b577a648a2a.PNG
 

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23 minutes ago, Schakel said:

Yep, and they give a first look of their 2020 livery.
Whatever that may be...
Ineos.PNG.60b8d1cfc26d7e43b6ea8b577a648a2a.PNG
 

Interesting titbit from a press conference question asked about why the collaboration between INEOS and merc. 
Jim said Grant Simmer has been involved in 11 AC wins, F1 team had won 6 championships in a row and Dave Brailsford who runs the INEOS cycling team has won numerous Tour De France events... it’s not an accident. The way these teams work is a common ethos. there’s no arrogance between the engineers. 
Head of Mercedes Applied Science Graham Miller has relocated to the portsmouth base to share his engineering expertise. 30 engineers from merc F1 have also got involved in the AC project and worked with the AC team in Portsmouth...

seems quite a bit of collaboration and not just a marketing exercise. 
 

let’s hope it pays off!!

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26 minutes ago, Schakel said:

It's their new car for formula 1.
555462095_newcar.thumb.PNG.780bfb1b0e33634d65a468df234ae2d7.PNG
1922762038_newcar2.PNG.a1f08b44496c9934d96befdd831dc02f.PNG
 

Daimler board looking to get out of f1. Losses on the mercedes brand and f1 not the right profile of gas guzzling with new electric vehicles. 

No doubt good deal for INEOS to step in and save the day. Engines still to be built by Mercedes,  but of course in the UK not Germany!

As for the Mercedes design team stepping to save the day on the water I think that bird (dog?) has already flown.

And of course the frackers new engine and drive train for his Grenadier copy of a land drover is from BMW. Probably too late now for him to change to merc.

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1 hour ago, Schakel said:

It's their new car for formula 1.
555462095_newcar.thumb.PNG.780bfb1b0e33634d65a468df234ae2d7.PNG
1922762038_newcar2.PNG.a1f08b44496c9934d96befdd831dc02f.PNG
 

Old car new seasons livery. 

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1 hour ago, winchfodder said:

Daimler board looking to get out of f1. Losses on the mercedes brand and f1 not the right profile of gas guzzling with new electric vehicles. 

No doubt good deal for INEOS to step in and save the day. Engines still to be built by Mercedes,  but of course in the UK not Germany!

As for the Mercedes design team stepping to save the day on the water I think that bird (dog?) has already flown.

And of course the frackers new engine and drive train for his Grenadier copy of a land drover is from BMW. Probably too late now for him to change to merc.

Toto, has a 30% share in the company and also runs the entire Mercedes motorsport division, they are already in Formula E so I’m pretty sure that are on top of it. 
 

it’s a new sponsorship announcement for the F1 team, that’s all. 

personally it’s nice to see Billionaires actually doing something with their money instead of hiding it away, accross football, F1, sailing and cycling it’s a decent portfolio 
 

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1 hour ago, ed__miller said:


 

let’s hope it pays off!!

i hate the fact that partnerships between auto racing and sailboat racing have never seemed to help the sailboat team.  

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11 hours ago, accnick said:

You picked one of the greatest boats of all time to make that point. I had a similar-sized old yawl in the 1970s and early '80s, with the same arrangement for the mizzen sheet. It was also a handy place to fly the ensign at anchor, from the end of the boomkin up to the end of the mizzen boom.

In the case above, they also have a fitting on the side of the boomkin to serve as the pivot point for the passarelle for Med-mooring. That's what I call multi-tasking.

Slight thread drift, but "Stormy Weather" is indeed an all time classic, winner of the 1935 Fastnet and still racing to these days. Designed by Olin Stephens of S&S, designer of no less than seven (7) successful AC defenders, by the way.

Olin Stephens would call it a bumpkin, not boomkin, and its greatest asset was to serve as a toilet seat, actually.

Timeless-classics-such-as-Stormy-Weather-the-SS-1934-yawl-will-compete-in-the-2015-Rolex-Fastnet-Race.jpg.cb49bb92e6776d8172776f620b8b11dd.jpg

 

 

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

i hate the fact that partnerships between auto racing and sailboat racing have never seemed to help the sailboat team.  

You would hope this time around there is actually enough transferable knowledge to make it work... composite production methods, hydraulic controls, energy recovery, wind tunnels, simulation, data analysis, AI, performance management,  physiologists, nutritionists, etc etc.

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1 hour ago, ed__miller said:

You would hope this time around there is actually enough transferable knowledge to make it work... composite production methods, hydraulic controls, energy recovery, wind tunnels, simulation, data analysis, AI, performance management,  physiologists, nutritionists, etc etc.

You'd like to think so but very different disciplines and goals - for example the Mercedes in house wind tunnel is set up for car testing and of no technical use in this case, and anyway most of the time its now a CFD driven process although yacht specific tunnels such as the twisted flow ones can be of value.

Very different mind set too for the engineers - and that takes time to adapt to a new arena, and in particular when you have no empathy or real hands on feel for the other's game.    So don't hold your breath - and a major downside can be from chasing down blind alleys.  Been there, seen that.

Presumably poor old Ben will now have to drive around in the top end Merc! 

 

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I hate the fact that people have confused Ineos sponsoring an F1 team with the America’s cup.

BMW chucking money at Lazzas tri was fine when you were cosying up to Jimmy was it not? 

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BMW was one of the very few successful co-ventures between an auto company and a sailing team, so yeah it was fine.  I don't really know what your point is otherwise.

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2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

 

 

BMW was one of the very few successful co-ventures between an auto company and a sailing team, so yeah it was fine.  I don't really know what your point is otherwise.

Agreed. Probably a pretty cheap deal for BMW considering the exposure. 

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10 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Agreed. Probably a pretty cheap deal for BMW considering the exposure. 

No cash changed hands there either, but I'm sure they spent plenty on airfare and hotels.

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4 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Slight thread drift, but "Stormy Weather" is indeed an all time classic, winner of the 1935 Fastnet and still racing to these days. Designed by Olin Stephens of S&S, designer of no less than seven (7) successful AC defenders, by the way.

Olin Stephens would call it a bumpkin, not boomkin, and its greatest asset was to serve as a toilet seat, actually.

Timeless-classics-such-as-Stormy-Weather-the-SS-1934-yawl-will-compete-in-the-2015-Rolex-Fastnet-Race.jpg.cb49bb92e6776d8172776f620b8b11dd.jpg

 

 

3335564139_d03963e87b_b.thumb.jpg.c4d63eed51237e11a68bc35ea46fd107.jpg

1307028378_1974-Ondine(1).jpg.4b26b496e8c86a27e74e14a97c65a4a8.jpg

Kialoa-II-on-the-hard-338.jpg.0397add74ef2f5a71de5a12c27d48c29.jpg

 

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I love that high aspect mizzen, but the shithole is missing in the bumpkin...

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3 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

 

 

BMW was one of the very few successful co-ventures between an auto company and a sailing team, so yeah it was fine.  I don't really know what your point is otherwise.

The Daimler-Benz Aerosail program's highlight was building what was the worlds most expensive dog of an ILC 40.

ETNZ and Toyota have been happily in love for the greater part of 3 decades.

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3 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

The Daimler-Benz Aerosail program's highlight was building what was the worlds most expensive dog of an ILC 40.

ETNZ and Toyota have been happily in love for the greater part of 3 decades.

That's a cash sponsorship, not a technical partnership.

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6 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

That's a cash sponsorship, not a technical partnership.

One would argue that a nation partly built on innovation using #8 fencing wire, tractors and Hiluxes, it could be at least in part be a technical partnership.

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1 hour ago, NZL3481 said:

One would argue that a nation partly built on innovation using #8 fencing wire, tractors and Hiluxes, it could be at least in part be a technical partnership.

Isn't it mostly the NZ Toyota distributor,  not much from head office?

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for fuck's sake it is a marketing deal.  And that's a John Deere.

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14 hours ago, Schakel said:

It's their new car for formula 1.
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No, it's the 2019 car , the 2020 car will be launched later this week.

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7 hours ago, NZL3481 said:

One would argue that a nation partly built on innovation using #8 fencing wire, tractors and Hiluxes, it could be at least in part be a technical partnership.

Nah, you’re thinking of ITM. 

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5 hours ago, Forourselves said:

The evolution of Ben Ainslie Racing/ Ineos Team UK

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All the promo shots, from all teams like to have the raised foil out of sight as much as possible.

Could this be because from many angles these boats are just fugly?

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On 2/9/2020 at 12:32 AM, barfy said:

 

It's curious that ineos seems to run their masthead spin halyard to the top of the sprit quite often.

It's not tight so I don't think it does anything for the rig, unless it's insurance for the forestay in testing?

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Did you all see the DAS steering wheel in the New Mercedes F1 Car?  With the Ineos collaboration they're bringing that to the Cup boat......

 

Look if everyone else on here can make shit up so can I ;)

Plus someone else would have said it on here eventually! and believed it was true.

 

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On 2/23/2020 at 1:49 AM, RMac said:

unless it's insurance for the forestay in testing?

I thought it might be a security measure if they're testing a 'structured luff' jib (or whatever the North version is called) that is pushing the limits on numbers...

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I bet big ben was wishing the AC was in GP50's and not AC75's after his clean sweep on the first day in Sydney. 

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1 hour ago, winchfodder said:

I bet big ben was wishing the AC was in GP50's and not AC75's after his clean sweep on the first day in Sydney. 

The day the AC becomes one design is the day I stop watching. Ben had his chance in a 50ft foiling cat and blew it. Not for a lack of funds either. It's one thing to jump on a ready made boat and do well. It's entirely different kettle of fish to have to actually come up with a winning design.

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2 hours ago, winchfodder said:

I bet big ben was wishing the AC was in GP50's and not AC75's after his clean sweep on the first day in Sydney. 

Looked like a pro team slumming it in the minor leagues.   

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56 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

The day the AC becomes one design is the day I stop watching. Ben had his chance in a 50ft foiling cat and blew it. Not for a lack of funds either. It's one thing to jump on a ready made boat and do well. It's entirely different kettle of fish to have to actually come up with a winning design.

Agreed his best results are in one designs. Cat design was a dog called Rover. He does not have much luck with choosing designers. We wait to see if the plank flies fast enough. 

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Well, the Ineos team seems cohesive. If only they get a fast boat...

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5 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Well, the Ineos team seems cohesive. If only they get a fast boat...

I had exactly the same thoughts.

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