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INEOS Team GB

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1 hour ago, chesirecat said:

Yep. 

Adding to this LR didnt look quite on form against AM so not sure they were as fast as they were against Ineos earlier.

Next, this vid below shows the influence of Merc is far more than designing and building a few parts. It is also strategic and tactical. I dont think the other teams have anything like their capability of delivering refined components as quick and this will really start to count. For one thing, they (Renishaw) can 3d print in titanium and can you imagine what possibilities that has, they can get the mods designed from this series in time for Friday.

 

I think the production capacity and tech at Brackley that they have access too is formidable and since the acquisition by Ratcliffe  of Merc F1 that toy box will be opened more than it was before

Renshaw will be great for making what you tell them but from a design and tech point of view and data management to weed out the noise and focus I think the Merc tie up will only yield stronger results.

after years of teams being ridiculed for the F1 tech tie ups, it looks like this might be bringing results 

focus on the job in hand and keeping improvements rolling through will be key, they aren't there to win the Prada cup and on last showing NZ are still a distant way ahead 

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39 minutes ago, KingMonkey said:

I tried to look through the scoring rules last night and failed to find anything on this. So theoretically LR can end up on 6 points same as ITUK. In the event of that happening I couldn’t see anything about how a tie is broken. That said I read fairly quickly. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iYKAVhJZt7fW3pVtBOyPlDeFbni_9-Vm/view?usp=drivesdk

Last race between the teams decides, so it would go LR way. Although, with all the spare time in the schedule now, you think they could fit in a tie breaker! SI's unlikely to be changed at this time however. 

Bit of a shame where you lose one team, but 2/3rd of the racing (from a spectators point of view)

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INEOS improvement has been great to see.

As I understand the improvement is a result of two workstreams:

1. Quite large and long lead time equipment in development and production such as new mast, new boom, new sails, new control equipment bits - these would have been planned in well before ACWS showed them really struggling

2. Analysis outcomes & lessons from boat handling such as sail trimming, sequence of actions; analysis of performance of foils and what has made them perform worse than expected and modifications that resolved these issues

 

So at this stage of the cup challenge, what else do they have in the pipeline? 

It's possible they've learned something new, started engineering & design and expect to start rapid manufacturing soon.

Will there be substantial and impactful bits of kit coming onboard for Prada Cup Final? Probably, and I'm sure that's the case for all teams.

So it's all about who can analyse, figure out, learn and create rapidly. Then which team has set themselves up to manufacture and fabricate quickly while away form home?

 

Would INEOS be able to use Merc F1 team manufacturing and air-freight parts to NZ?

Exciting times ahead. Race against LR showed that they're actually quite closely matched and sailing & tactics made all the difference.

If any of the Challenger teams are to get to ETNZ level they have so much work to do and the Defenders have the full strength of design & production team right at their doorstep

 

 

 

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I think there will be a lot of work looking at the data from the races to see what modes worked and which didn't, thus refine the crew 'checklists'

I also still think the w-foil may make another appearance as it may be the more suitable for lighter conditions expected for AC itself.

I'm also  sure they will be more work on jibs, foil flaps and tips, take-off modes

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48 minutes ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

If any of the Challenger teams are to get to ETNZ level they have so much work to do and the Defenders have the full strength of design & production team right at their doorstep

 

You would have to think that LR has plenty of development left on the table although their most obvious change (additional skeg/keel) was done very strangely after one day in the water. 
 

Equally you might think ITUK had already used a lot of their planned developments. That said they seem to be using the biggest foils of the three challengers  in the RR, all of which are bigger than ETNZ so you’d have to hope their development might allow them to move their smaller foils down the wind range. 

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58 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Last race between the teams decides, 

Thanks. There does seem to be some TV schedule issues now which they may try to find a way of filling but even given the fairly steady forecast between Friday and Saturday I can’t see them doing anything other than having the two points races on Friday.
 

All 3 teams with boats would probably be up for re-running the canned Christmas cup or similar over the weekend tho. 

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45 minutes ago, KingMonkey said:

 

All 3 teams with boats would probably be up for re-running the canned Christmas cup or similar over the weekend tho. 

I don't see that. Who would stand to gain from that?

NZ most because they have not had the serious racing

LR less because they have things to improve on

UK least of all, because they looked very switched on with crew-work, coordination and tactics

So if I were in team UK I would see the prospect of more racing than necessary, and especially any racing against NZ as only having downsides at the moment. The preparation of the defender that people were deploring last week.

I think UK will have got all they want out of the racing, and now want some opportunity to put in the next set of updates before the Prada finals

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9 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Who would stand to gain from that?

 

Would have thought they’d all fancy more me time with ETNZ. Fastest boat has least to learn and they are all slower than the Kiwis.

... but onto more important things as the team’s enforced Belstaff relationship has led to an important question: do you buy the £90 t-shirt...

https://www.belstaff.co.uk/men/clothing/polos-t-shirts/britannia-applique-t-shirt-dark-ink/B000143571.html?utm_source=Partnerships&utm_medium=INEOSTeamUK&utm_campaign=britannia-collection-2020&utm_content=AppliqueTshirt

or the £225 (£225, not a typo)  Hamble wanker jacket:

https://www.belstaff.co.uk/men/outerwear/gilets/britannia-rodings-gilet-dark-navy/B000143586.html?utm_source=Partnerships&utm_medium=INEOSTeamUK&utm_campaign=britannia-collection-2020&utm_content=RODINGSGILET

... they’re not exactly trying to buy favour with the fan base are they. 

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Good video explaining the sailing positions on Britannia, what each person is responsible for. I think this is part of why they are winning. Look and see what you think. 

 

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58 minutes ago, KingMonkey said:

Would have thought they’d all fancy more me time with ETNZ. Fastest boat has least to learn and they are all slower than the Kiwis.

... but onto more important things as the team’s enforced Belstaff relationship has led to an important question: do you buy the £90 t-shirt...

https://www.belstaff.co.uk/men/clothing/polos-t-shirts/britannia-applique-t-shirt-dark-ink/B000143571.html?utm_source=Partnerships&utm_medium=INEOSTeamUK&utm_campaign=britannia-collection-2020&utm_content=AppliqueTshirt

or the £225 (£225, not a typo)  Hamble wanker jacket:

https://www.belstaff.co.uk/men/outerwear/gilets/britannia-rodings-gilet-dark-navy/B000143586.html?utm_source=Partnerships&utm_medium=INEOSTeamUK&utm_campaign=britannia-collection-2020&utm_content=RODINGSGILET

... they’re not exactly trying to buy favour with the fan base are they. 

How do you know if the Kiwis are fastest as of today?  The fastest boat is AM in heavy weather IMHO. It was interesting that when the Kiwis capsized INEOS was close.

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1 hour ago, dullers said:

How do you know if the Kiwis are fastest as of today?  The fastest boat is AM in heavy weather IMHO. It was interesting that when the Kiwis capsized INEOS was close.

Because if ETNZ didnt think/calculate they were faster im sure they would all be in the shed working out how to go faster!

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14 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

I think the production capacity and tech at Brackley that they have access too is formidable and since the acquisition by Ratcliffe  of Merc F1 that toy box will be opened more than it was before

Renshaw will be great for making what you tell them but from a design and tech point of view and data management to weed out the noise and focus I think the Merc tie up will only yield stronger results.

after years of teams being ridiculed for the F1 tech tie ups, it looks like this might be bringing results 

focus on the job in hand and keeping improvements rolling through will be key, they aren't there to win the Prada cup and on last showing NZ are still a distant way ahead 

I think you'll find that ratcliffe only bought 33% of Mercedes F1. Still very useful though

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Can someone tell me what Ben Ashley and Scott Gillies do on the English boat? I don't think its been really well covered in these forums.

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Something similar on Ineos's foils perhaps, or at least ongoing development on their two sets. One set racing, the other being upgraded. Be a major advantage if they can pull it off.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a31076350/mercedess-dual-axis-steering-advantages-explained/

"DRS is an electronic system triggered by the driver on the steering wheel that temporarily flattens the upper rear wing element on long straights to slash aerodynamic downforce and drag"

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6 hours ago, umpire said:

I think you'll find that ratcliffe only bought 33% of Mercedes F1. Still very useful though

I know what he bought as i have had to explain it numerous times, 

bring pedantic that 33% is an ownership stake so while didn’t repeat the actual % he is one of the owners rather than his previous position as a sponsor 

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8 hours ago, KingMonkey said:

Would have thought they’d all fancy more me time with ETNZ. Fastest boat has least to learn and they are all slower than the Kiwis.

... but onto more important things as the team’s enforced Belstaff relationship has led to an important question: do you buy the £90 t-shirt...

https://www.belstaff.co.uk/men/clothing/polos-t-shirts/britannia-applique-t-shirt-dark-ink/B000143571.html?utm_source=Partnerships&utm_medium=INEOSTeamUK&utm_campaign=britannia-collection-2020&utm_content=AppliqueTshirt

or the £225 (£225, not a typo)  Hamble wanker jacket:

https://www.belstaff.co.uk/men/outerwear/gilets/britannia-rodings-gilet-dark-navy/B000143586.html?utm_source=Partnerships&utm_medium=INEOSTeamUK&utm_campaign=britannia-collection-2020&utm_content=RODINGSGILET

... they’re not exactly trying to buy favour with the fan base are they. 

Eye watering prices! I saw those too the other day. Yeah....na. Shame really as I would have been quite keen on some kit this time round. Henri Lloyd is doing some stuff at a slightly more reasonable set of prices.

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9 hours ago, KingMonkey said:

Would have thought they’d all fancy more me time with ETNZ. Fastest boat has least to learn and they are all slower than the Kiwis.

... but onto more important things as the team’s enforced Belstaff relationship has led to an important question: do you buy the £90 t-shirt...

https://www.belstaff.co.uk/men/clothing/polos-t-shirts/britannia-applique-t-shirt-dark-ink/B000143571.html?utm_source=Partnerships&utm_medium=INEOSTeamUK&utm_campaign=britannia-collection-2020&utm_content=AppliqueTshirt

or the £225 (£225, not a typo)  Hamble wanker jacket:

https://www.belstaff.co.uk/men/outerwear/gilets/britannia-rodings-gilet-dark-navy/B000143586.html?utm_source=Partnerships&utm_medium=INEOSTeamUK&utm_campaign=britannia-collection-2020&utm_content=RODINGSGILET

... they’re not exactly trying to buy favour with the fan base are they. 

For £225, they could have thrown some fucking sleeves in...

AC_RODINGS_GILET_DARK_NAVY_71070097C50N0

 

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9 hours ago, KingMonkey said:

... they’re not exactly trying to buy favour with the fan base are they. 

There's a fan base?

But not for me. Firstly, because that is 10x what I'd pay and secondly, because a union flag on leisure-wear is tacky.

 

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20 minutes ago, An Interested Non-Sailor said:

If you want to make your eyes water have a look at the price of the Prada gear!

I have enough tinfoil already. Or have they moved past using baking foil as clothing material?

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46 minutes ago, An Interested Non-Sailor said:

If you want to make your eyes water have a look at the price of the Prada gear!

Remember checking out the team bases in Valencia during that AC and being fairly shocked by the Prada pricing then. God knows what it is now!

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6 hours ago, chesirecat said:

Something similar on Ineos's foils perhaps, or at least ongoing development on their two sets. One set racing, the other being upgraded. Be a major advantage if they can pull it off.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a31076350/mercedess-dual-axis-steering-advantages-explained/

"DRS is an electronic system triggered by the driver on the steering wheel that temporarily flattens the upper rear wing element on long straights to slash aerodynamic downforce and drag"

Not sure I see the comparison. All the boats can already  flatten the flaps on foils and rudder T to reduce drag, or increase them to increase the vertical forces needed. 

Is there something else in there you think is innovative that could cross-over that I am missing?

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This is a more interesting video... they're a day late as I already did the shout out to Andy Bryson and the tactical app yesterday on my video... but interesting none the less. 

I've posted in the Prada thread comparing the type of communication Giles gives compared to Bruni in the same situation and this software is a big part of the reason why Giles is able to do that.

Gotta laugh, they also did a crew roles video a few days after mine... maybe someone in INEOS is watching? 

 

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1 hour ago, Nutta said:

For £225, they could have thrown some fucking sleeves in...

AC_RODINGS_GILET_DARK_NAVY_71070097C50N0

 

Yeah, but wait til their Acapella album drops...that shit will fly off the shelves! 

Screenshot_20210119_111241_com.whatsapp.jpg

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8 hours ago, Lat35sowth said:

Because if ETNZ didnt think/calculate they were faster im sure they would all be in the shed working out how to go faster!

Boats dont get faster for being in the shed otherwise no one would be out on the water. I think Prada have a faster boat than INEOS but INEOS is being sailed better. Much to my surprise this race is about sailing the course the fastest by reading the wind. I suspect the KIwis have a fast boat but I have no proof of that and neither do you as the boats are all much improved from the last time they raced together. You have no proof either. The Christmas regatta is so last year.

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5 minutes ago, TANGO QUEBEC said:

Yeah, but wait til their Acapella album drops...that shit will fly off the shelves! 

Screenshot_20210119_111241_com.whatsapp.jpg

It does have sleeves. Short sleeves. You know you want to buy one or you would not have browsed through Ben Ainslie's wardrobe.

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21 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

This is a more interesting video... they're a day late as I already did the shout out to Andy Bryson and the tactical app yesterday on my video... but interesting none the less. 

I've posted in the Prada thread comparing the type of communication Giles gives compared to Bruni in the same situation and this software is a big part of the reason why Giles is able to do that.

Gotta laugh, they also did a crew roles video a few days after mine... maybe someone in INEOS is watching?

 

Doesn't tell us a lot about anything that it gives more than standard ones.

The one thing I found interesting was Giles on a few occasions (and always correctly I think) calling whether or not the other boat would get to the layline on their current tack or gybe (mostly gybe). This informed their decision as to which mark to go for. That is quite tricky, so I do suspect it has something for that

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^better job than the BBC which has been silent since day 1  when they went 2-0 up. I’d have thought AM crashing was newsworthy and UK being 4-0 up too!

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1 hour ago, enigmatically2 said:

Doesn't tell us a lot about anything that it gives more than standard ones.

Yeah, true. But just thought it was interesting in context of a weekend of universal credit for giles calls. 
What's interesting, is how much more Giles speech is quantitative rather than just opinions on laylines / other boats etc. And that is probably a hint to what he is seeing on his screen.

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1 hour ago, oioi said:

Sailing even made the guardian newspaper!

That guy Sam Wollaston is usually writing the TV review... but good to get some layman's stuff in. There has been some photos in the Mail as well... but only really Ed Gorman in the Times and the Telegraph guy actually writing good articles. The trouble for outsiders is that you literally have to explain the idiosyncratic nature of the competition before you even start but no doubt there will be more interest the longer it goes on and obviously the Mercedes element is interesting to a lot of F1 fans. 

 

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3 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Yeah, true. But just thought it was interesting in context of a weekend of universal credit for giles calls. 
What's interesting, is how much more Giles speech is quantitative rather than just opinions on laylines / other boats etc. And that is probably a hint to what he is seeing on his screen.

Agreed. Even if you put this tech into the hands of the other teams, they'd need someone lucid enough i.e. not under some degree of excess physical/mental stress to interpret it. Regarding the tech, even when you have something flashing traffic lights at you or giving you %, you're still going to have to take a deep breath confirm your're happy with what it is telling you. Fighter planes are an area that has looked at this to death i.e. pilot load, providing the right information at the right time. It is the fundamental reason why you have generations of aircraft with a pilot and a navigator/weapons officer. Of late, they have been pushed to use technology to allow the fighters to go back to single seaters. In an AC75, having Giles able to have the brain width to think clearly is proving fundamental. Britannia is not obviously faster than the other boats. She is going the right way more often.    

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37 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

Agreed. Even if you put this tech into the hands of the other teams, they'd need someone lucid enough i.e. not under some degree of excess physical/mental stress to interpret it. Regarding the tech, even when you have something flashing traffic lights at you or giving you %, you're still going to have to take a deep breath confirm your're happy with what it is telling you. Fighter planes are an area that has looked at this to death i.e. pilot load, providing the right information at the right time. It is the fundamental reason why you have generations of aircraft with a pilot and a navigator/weapons officer. Of late, they have been pushed to use technology to allow the fighters to go back to single seaters. In an AC75, having Giles able to have the brain width to think clearly is proving fundamental. Britannia is not obviously faster than the other boats. She is going the right way more often.    

Good obs about the fighter jets. I know from personal experiences that your brain can process an incredible amount in just one second, but with the amt and variation of tech in a fighter, they are really pushing a single pilot to the very limit.

However, a pilot doesn't face that amount of stress for 20+ minutes in one stretch like an AC75 crew. Dedicating the 4 most intense tasks on a boat to separate crew members for 100% continuous concentration seems more sensible. IMO.

I was a bit stunned to see AM's tactician labouring at a grinder! :blink:

 

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18 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Good obs about the fighter jets. I know from personal experiences that your brain can process an incredible amount in just one second, but with the amt and variation of tech in a fighter, they are really pushing a single pilot to the very limit.

However, a pilot doesn't face that amount of stress for 20+ minutes in one stretch like an AC75 crew. Dedicating the 4 most intense tasks on a boat to separate crew members for 100% continuous concentration seems more sensible. IMO.

I was a bit stunned to see AM's tactician labouring at a grinder! :blink:

 

Obviously the physical workload for TH is one of the limitations to his effectiveness as tactician - he is also watching out from Port side only..., whereas Giles Scott is mobile. He would often back out to end of the mainsail to peek out on windward side if need to get a visual. At all times they have  two members of the tactical loop responsible for tactics on both sides: BA and GS - 360deg overview assisted by well developed tactical software.

American Magic are maybe relying on Andrew Campbell, the sole flight controller, who is on the Starboard side and not moving across to provide observations from that side.

But I'd think controlling the foils is a pretty full on job!! Just as mainsail trimming requires constant attention from Paul Goodison

INEOS have seemingly made a good move and hedged their bet on this system, on endurance of their 6 grinders and have reaped the rewards so far.

 

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17 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

 

However, a pilot doesn't face that amount of stress for 20+ minutes in one stretch like an AC75 crew

Not sure which fighter pilots you have talked to, but i would respectfully disagree.

Though I agree with the rest of your post

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Just found a picture of some of the INEOS modifications that have improved her.

Screenshot (1807).png

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6 minutes ago, dullers said:

Just found a picture of some of the INEOS modifications that have improved her.

 

FFS remove that. The Queen isn't supposed to be biased in favour of us against the colonials. They'll only whinge if they know she is giving us an advantage

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Just now, enigmatically2 said:

FFS remove that. The Queen isn't supposed to be biased in favour of us against the colonials. They'll only whinge if they know she is giving us an advantage

INEOS haven't started racing the colonials yet. ;)

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1 minute ago, Ex-yachtie said:

INEOS haven't started racing the colonials yet. ;)

Not entirely true, we're 2 up against the first lot of them and now they've broken their boat ;).

But you are right she is allowed to favour us against that lot of colonials. But we'll get to you in time :)

 

 

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4 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

FFS remove that. The Queen isn't supposed to be biased in favour of us against the colonials. They'll only whinge if they know she is giving us an advantage

The Kiwis have already admitted to copying that mod of the Queen but have opted for  smaller Union Jack in the corner. We will see if that is better or not in march.

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5 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

INEOS haven't started racing the colonials yet. ;)

Yes we have..American Magic

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... what is BE doing with his right hand?   Turning a handgrip for- and backwards ...   what is it for ?

2114495293_INEOSTeamGB-Page72-AmericasCupAnarchy-SailingAnarchyForums.png.60787534514c3cfd0ff7fcedb42fe45a.png

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Just now, Norberto said:

... what is BE doing with his right hand?   Turning a handgrip for- and backwards ...   what is it for ?

2114495293_INEOSTeamGB-Page72-AmericasCupAnarchy-SailingAnarchyForums.png.60787534514c3cfd0ff7fcedb42fe45a.png

I think this is for rudder pitch control

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Have we determined what the inner wheel is for ... didn’t see BA adjusting it during the racing

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its also a new inner wheel from the first day of racing when it was shaped differently 

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28 minutes ago, Norberto said:

... what is BE doing with his right hand?   Turning a handgrip for- and backwards ...   what is it for ?

2114495293_INEOSTeamGB-Page72-AmericasCupAnarchy-SailingAnarchyForums.png.60787534514c3cfd0ff7fcedb42fe45a.png

giles scott...

Doing rudder pitch which he takes control of when the flight controller has to grind. 

I think they have rudder pitch in lots of places, helm can do it, it's one of the two flight controller grips as well. 

The inner wheel is now black, and doesn't have the grip shift... i think it's maybe a fine and course wheel for rudder movement? 

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1 hour ago, dullers said:

Yes we have..American Magic

Hmmm, I suspect, on the same grounds, Luna Rossa may consider Britain to be an old colony of theirs?

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10 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Hmmm, I suspect, on the same grounds, Luna Rossa may consider Britain to be an old colony of theirs?

Nah The Romans are so 55 BC. We went and invaded them in a replay about 1943 I think. We have last dibs.

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47 minutes ago, Norberto said:

... what is BE doing with his right hand?   Turning a handgrip for- and backwards ...   what is it for ?

2114495293_INEOSTeamGB-Page72-AmericasCupAnarchy-SailingAnarchyForums.png.60787534514c3cfd0ff7fcedb42fe45a.png

I dont know because his hand is not in the picture.

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In other news 'Englands long hold on the World piss taking championship (55Bc to present day) is under threat from New Zealand with this late entry.

Screenshot (1806).png

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9 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

 

 

2.33 is interesting re the white handle.

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27 minutes ago, dullers said:

In other news 'Englands long hold on the World piss taking championship (55Bc to present day) is under threat from New Zealand with this late entry.

Screenshot (1806).png

I don't get it...

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3 hours ago, Chris UK said:

Agreed. Even if you put this tech into the hands of the other teams, they'd need someone lucid enough i.e. not under some degree of excess physical/mental stress to interpret it. Regarding the tech, even when you have something flashing traffic lights at you or giving you %, you're still going to have to take a deep breath confirm your're happy with what it is telling you. Fighter planes are an area that has looked at this to death i.e. pilot load, providing the right information at the right time. It is the fundamental reason why you have generations of aircraft with a pilot and a navigator/weapons officer. Of late, they have been pushed to use technology to allow the fighters to go back to single seaters. In an AC75, having Giles able to have the brain width to think clearly is proving fundamental. Britannia is not obviously faster than the other boats. She is going the right way more often.    

Good examples were Ineos consistently pushed LR to the port top rounding mark and made a tactical decision early even giving up some lead. This decision needs to made some way down the course and as Mozzy said, Giles comments were more quantitive based. As we know this is a common tactic and so more noticeable by lack of equivalent coms from LR . 

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9 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

I don't get it...

Phew.  Our piss taking championship cup is safe!  Unintentional piss taking is not accepted under the rules.

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6 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

Good examples were Ineos consistently pushed LR to the port top rounding mark and made a tactical decision early even giving up some lead. This decision needs to made some way down the course and as Mozzy said, Giles comments were more quantitive based. As we know this is a common tactic and so more noticeable by lack of equivalent coms from LR . 

Those kinds of calls are what is making this cup feel more like short course WMRT monohull match racing. The sailors with the most experience and best results with that type of sailing are Bruni and Ben. 

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9 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Not sure I see the comparison. All the boats can already  flatten the flaps on foils and rudder T to reduce drag, or increase them to increase the vertical forces needed. 

Is there something else in there you think is innovative that could cross-over that I am missing?

Both the Merc foils are different to the other teams, not only in overall design but wing/flap zones,  there's something about them that is just, well different. We probably need to be standing next to them and see them moving.  

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4 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

giles scott...

Doing rudder pitch which he takes control of when the flight controller has to grind. 

I think they have rudder pitch in lots of places, helm can do it, it's one of the two flight controller grips as well. 

The inner wheel is now black, and doesn't have the grip shift... i think it's maybe a fine and course wheel for rudder movement? 

Black seems good for INEOS. They did the black foils and now have moved to painting other things black.  They can only get better...does anyone know if this black is available to all the teams under the rules?

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12 hours ago, dullers said:

INEOS is being sailed better.

Certainly a lot better than in December, that's for sure.

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2 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Certainly a lot better than in December, that's for sure.

I think they were already good at that. I think the boat was the issue. Painting the foils black certainly helped.

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20 minutes ago, dullers said:

Black seems good for INEOS. They did the black foils and now have moved to painting other things black.  They can only get better...does anyone know if this black is available to all the teams under the rules?

Well, there is that team in New Zealand called the 'All Blacks', but that's probably not relevant, is it?!

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1 minute ago, pwormwood said:

Well, there is that team in New Zealand called the 'All Blacks', but that's probably not relevant, is it?!

Maybe they nicked a pot off the rugby team?

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5 hours ago, dullers said:

Nah The Romans are so 55 BC. We went and invaded them in a replay about 1943 I think. We have last dibs.

Is that why you’re shutting the borders now?

No one likes a trilogy. 

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Just now, Ex-yachtie said:

Is that why you’re shutting the borders now?

No one likes a trilogy. 

no more borders now

tearing down the Wall

and placing it around the Whites House

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1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Is that why you’re shutting the borders now?

No one likes a trilogy. 

 

1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Is that why you’re shutting the borders now?

No one likes a trilogy. 

?

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22 hours ago, dullers said:

Boats dont get faster for being in the shed otherwise no one would be out on the water. I think Prada have a faster boat than INEOS but INEOS is being sailed better. Much to my surprise this race is about sailing the course the fastest by reading the wind. I suspect the KIwis have a fast boat but I have no proof of that and neither do you as the boats are all much improved from the last time they raced together. You have no proof either. The Christmas regatta is so last year.

Im going on a hunch!

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Watching day 2 again, I wonder whether anyone has tried using both foils to get out. After all 2 foils doubles the lift, but is far less than doubling the drag (because the hull is much more drag at that point). So sail up to speed x (where x <19kt) with only leeward foil in as now, then drop the other foil which will give a burst of lift and hopefully lift you out before the additional drag slows you down too much.

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1 hour ago, Lat35sowth said:

Im going on a hunch!

So am I.

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3 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Watching day 2 again, I wonder whether anyone has tried using both foils to get out. After all 2 foils doubles the lift, but is far less than doubling the drag (because the hull is much more drag at that point). So sail up to speed x (where x <19kt) with only leeward foil in as now, then drop the other foil which will give a burst of lift and hopefully lift you out before the additional drag slows you down too much.

I would suspect they have tried everything.

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1 minute ago, dullers said:

I would suspect they have tried everything.

Maybe though we haven't seen any evidence, maybe they may have only modelled it. But sometimes such things are overlooked

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8 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Watching day 2 again, I wonder whether anyone has tried using both foils to get out. After all 2 foils doubles the lift, but is far less than doubling the drag (because the hull is much more drag at that point). So sail up to speed x (where x <19kt) with only leeward foil in as now, then drop the other foil which will give a burst of lift and hopefully lift you out before the additional drag slows you down too much.

Once they have gotten up to speed, around that 19 knot mark, I don't think they have a lot of problem taking off. By then, they are already getting lift to reduce wetted area... a lot of design work probably went into trying to reduce drag as much as possible for take off. Adding drag from the second foil might make the difference of reaching take off speed or not, in light air?

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1 minute ago, MaxHugen said:

Once they have gotten up to speed, around that 19 knot mark, I don't think they have a lot of problem taking off. By then, they are already getting lift to reduce wetted area... a lot of design work probably went into trying to reduce drag as much as possible for take off. Adding drag from the second foil might make the difference of reaching take off speed or not, in light air?

It might well, but the point being that if it gave enough of a burst of lift at lower speeds they could take off earlier. I said <19kt because I know they take off at 19, but who knows with dropping that 2nd foil whether they could do it at 14 or something.  I'm sure they have considered it, was just a passing thought.

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11 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Maybe though we haven't seen any evidence, maybe they may have only modelled it. But sometimes such things are overlooked

I think when INEOS was struggling in the Christmas regatta they would have tried everything  including foiling without foils. One thing I did find and it has been proved several times is that INEOS appears to be the fastest boat in displacement mode. That must help when trying to get back up but stickiness to water would be included or part of that or unrelated when the hull actually tries to leave the water?  If you have not watched it i recommend the sail gb in Sydney at the beginning of the year. BA steps onto a boat he has not raced much in and then kills the rest.

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3 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

It might well, but the point being that if it gave enough of a burst of lift at lower speeds they could take off earlier. I said <19kt because I know they take off at 19, but who knows with dropping that 2nd foil whether they could do it at 14 or something.  I'm sure they have considered it, was just a passing thought.

Sure. I'd be surprised if the teams had not tried everything they could think of to pop up faster. I was a bit surprised to see in one video of a good rear angle of a boat building up speed prior to take off, with the leeward foil already fully canted. I guess it was to reduce leeway?

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On 1/18/2021 at 8:13 AM, Forourselves said:

So INEOS has to beat LR 3 times to go through, while LR only has to beat INEOS twice to go through?

Are not the points to last round robin worth 2 instead of 1?

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25 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Watching day 2 again, I wonder whether anyone has tried using both foils to get out. After all 2 foils doubles the lift, but is far less than doubling the drag (because the hull is much more drag at that point). So sail up to speed x (where x <19kt) with only leeward foil in as now, then drop the other foil which will give a burst of lift and hopefully lift you out before the additional drag slows you down too much.

Just to add, maybe the hull is not as draggy as the foil?

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17 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

FFS remove that. The Queen isn't supposed to be biased in favour of us against the colonials. They'll only whinge if they know she is giving us an advantage

I'm not sure she measures, so best leave her off the boat?

20210120_232414.jpg

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8 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

Sure. I'd be surprised if the teams had not tried everything they could think of to pop up faster. I was a bit surprised to see in one video of a good rear angle of a boat building up speed prior to take off, with the leeward foil already fully canted. I guess it was to reduce leeway?

As I understand they take off on one foil and have the windward canted up, so that they'd quickly gain plenty of righting moment as soon as they take off and pivot about the leeward foil arm. If the windward was lowered, they'd lose out by not having all that mass stick far out.

If the windward arm was in the water they'd need to raise it while acceleration was happening, mainsail getting trimmed onto transition to foiling modes - quite a bit to handle

While the windward arm would add lift it probably adds a lot of drag, which would of course reduce the acceleration into foil speeds and modes

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10 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

It might well, but the point being that if it gave enough of a burst of lift at lower speeds they could take off earlier. I said <19kt because I know they take off at 19, but who knows with dropping that 2nd foil whether they could do it at 14 or something.  I'm sure they have considered it, was just a passing thought.

The 19 knot lift off for INEOS. Do you have any idea about the other lift of speeds for the others?

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1 minute ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

As I understand they take off on one foil and have the windward canted up, so that they'd quickly gain plenty of righting moment as soon as they take off.

If the windward arm was in the water they'd need raise while acceleration was happening, mainsail getting trimmed onto transition to foiling modes.

While the windward arm would add lift it probably adds a lot of drag, which would of course reduce the acceleration into foil speeds and modes

Tidal movement probably plays a knot or two of difference.

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2 minutes ago, Nutta said:

I'm not sure she measures, so best leave her off the boat?

20210120_232414.jpg

God bless her. I will cry when she goes. She is wearing a silver fern for the KIwis I think. I am sure I have seen that colour scheme at the Nuremberg rallies  for the middle right broach. Looks sort of waffen SS. No disrespect intended to her Madge. I suspect they copied it off her anyway.

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9 minutes ago, dullers said:

I think when INEOS was struggling in the Christmas regatta they would have tried everything  including foiling without foils. One thing I did find and it has been proved several times is that INEOS appears to be the fastest boat in displacement mode. That must help when trying to get back up but stickiness to water would be included or part of that or unrelated when the hull actually tries to leave the water?  If you have not watched it i recommend the sail gb in Sydney at the beginning of the year. BA steps onto a boat he has not raced much in and then kills the rest.

As an Aussie I vote to have BA blindfolded in the upcoming SailGP series.  :D

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4 minutes ago, dullers said:

The 19 knot lift off for INEOS. Do you have any idea about the other lift of speeds for the others?

All similar if you watch Day 2

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Just now, MaxHugen said:

As an Aussie I vote to have BA blindfolded in the upcoming SailGP series.  :D

It was impressive. He was in a different league. and Slingsby is pretty bloody good!

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1 minute ago, enigmatically2 said:

All similar if you watch Day 2

I suspect even half a knot difference would mean the winning or loosing of a race.

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3 minutes ago, MaxHugen said:

As an Aussie I vote to have BA blindfolded in the upcoming SailGP series.  :D

To be fair I thought the Aussie boat was having a few mechanical or soft ware problems I think.

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For getting up to speed, initially the biggest obstacle is righting moment. Until the leeward foil has enough speed to produce lift then the only RM they have is weight distribution, and the biggest thing they can do with that is raise the windward foil. Once going, and leeward foil is producing lift the leverage increases dramatically, as the boat is no longer rolling about eh keel, but rolling about the leeward foil. I think once going, but not quite foiling, there might be a tiny fraction of time where more lift could be gained by using the windward foil, but really I doubt it as it's in exactly the wrong place for RM, which you need for power.

Obviously, once foiling, they can foil around with two foil reasonably happy, but a a bit slow and we see this 'eagle mode' used for when they need to soak down to a leeward mark. I also watched the onboard pre-start of INEOS and they cruised around with both down. They can maintain a lower foiling speed with both foils down, but... they struggle to get enough speed pre-tacking (they discuss this and at one time lift the windward board to get more speed up, then drop it and tack). 

But for take off, even in the light, I think they need the windward foil raised for RM / power. 

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