The Profit

Stars and Stripes Team USA is gone

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KiWhingersTM sure seem to be in a tizzy over their cheating team. Heh.

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

ETNZ has essentially confirmed the scheme to be true. The statement also suggests complicity. 
From https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2020/07/america-s-cup-2021-stars-stripes-seek-team-nz-boat-for-challenger-series.html

 

Team NZ have told Newshub: "Essentially, it's an issue for the challengers to work through.

Hahahaha, ""This has never happened before," says America's Cup historian Tom Ehman. "It's outrageous.""

Wrong. Artemis sailed a non-compliant boat in SF. Back then, the challengers have worked it out too, even supplied vital information of how to make a boat safe.
As for a Defender helping a challenger, just look at Bermuda with Oracle and Japan, exchanging parts, training with each other after Japan was out of the CSS etc.

It's rather strange that TE, who is certainly well-versed in all things AC, has such a short memory.

ETNZ is right: Let the challengers work it out, it's their call.

(That does not mean that I endorse the continued rape of the DoG's CIC clause. Au contraire, it's disgusting, but the watering-down has started pre-ETNZ-defense. Plus, ETNZ wanted to be morally better than Oracle, and now they seem to allow the same s#it. Poisoned Chalice, indeed.)

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9 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

As for a Defender helping a challenger, just look at Bermuda with Oracle and Japan, exchanging parts, training with each other after Japan was out of the CSS etc.

There are some shallow similarities but Japan complied with the AC35 Prot’s CIC clause (weak, but it was spelled out clearly), and they came with their own boat, designers, shore crew and base. Holroyd spoke several times of that team’s foil design and system design approaches. They also gave Artemis a pretty good run for their money in the CSS and, behind Artemis recorded the second-fastest speeds and VMG’s of all the racing in Bermuda. 
 

They did a couple practice starts with Oracle later but a more pertinent example in the AC may be how ETNZ, even after winning the LV in Valencia, did trial runs against Alinghi’s Defender prior to the Match. 

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As I said last year when the first whiff of this douchebaggery started to waft, the only reason this is happening is right here...

Quote

On top of that, it would also give the regatta cash and credibility...

"Of course, all of New Zealand would welcome a fourth challenger competing in Auckland this summer."

GD is pushing it off on the challengers from a rules standpoint - but that's a misdirect. I'm having a hard time seeing how S+S is of any real financial benefit to NZ at this point. Sure you might have a "fourth challenger" in Auckland - but they have no money, no real team infrastructure - they are simply Team Welfare. I just don't see any upside here. This whole thing was always purely about saving some amount of face in the midst of an utterly disastrous event. There IS no cash, and there IS no credibility left.

I honestly think this gambit to the panel is about outing GD's under-the-table dealings (possibly even to get out of a litigious situation). I think this story is about to get far more interesting. And GD is stinking to high heaven at this point.

The challengers would be crazy to accept this. They need to let GD stew in his own foul juices...as his own team and country loses even more respect for the embarrassment he has become.

 

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1 minute ago, smackdaddy said:

The challengers would be crazy to accept this.

Protocol changes still require only consent from LR, right? ETNZ apparently want it, already.

The Class Rule is the document that by now requires consent by all Challs, right? 
 

IF the above is true then it’ll be up to LR. While ‘Prada’ may be in favor for more-boats, more-races reasons, it’s very hard to see why the race team LR would want any part of this. 

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

There are some shallow similarities but Japan complied with the AC35 Prot’s CIC clause (weak, but it was spelled out clearly), and they came with their own boat, designers, shore crew and base. Holroyd spoke several times of that team’s foil design and system design approaches. They also gave Artemis a pretty good run for their money in the CSS and, behind Artemis recorded the second-fastest speeds and VMG’s of all the racing in Bermuda. 
 

They did a couple practice starts with Oracle later but a more pertinent example in the AC may be how ETNZ, even after winning the LV in Valencia, did trial runs against Alinghi’s Defender prior to the Match. 

Regarding protocol non-compliance I was taking Artemis in SF as example.

Yes, during AC32 Alinghi and ETNZ trained together was well, somewhere in Dubai, I think, where Alinghi had some ties.
Apropos AC32: IIRC all challengers also helped when the ETNZ boat was knocked over during a storm in the South of France. Alingi held one of their "ACWS" events there. ETNZ was allowed to fly in a substitute hull, and some regulations of the proto have been needed to be waived too. Can't remember which (and too lazy to search ;)).

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Maybe they want S+S to accidentally damage the other boats?   

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4 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Maybe they want S+S to accidentally damage the other boats?   

Ha! No, the primary motivation by ETNZ must surely be money.

But ‘damage’ (not physical) is likely why TE suggests the Challs will want no part of being forced to race a lot more races, when development and boat upgrades and repairs and testing, is where time would be far better spent than racing SSTNZ. 

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1 minute ago, NeedAClew said:

Maybe they want S+S to accidentally damage the other boats?   

This is so déjà-vu; the AC is same same, irrespective of who the Defender is.

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Posted (edited)

And people who had been saying no one would watch the Cup...is this 4th challenger going to change much?  Are 24 round robins really better---for what?   

The only way this Te Borrow entry will help the US win the Cup is if they ram the other boats.  And I doubt GD and NYYC are in cahoots to give over that annoying Defender venue stuff. 

Addendum

Would be funny as shit if DC rescinnded permission to use the name now, so as not to besmirch it. 

 

Edited by NeedAClew
addendum

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If S+S make the match, they would replace the current CoR as LRs challenge would have been decided under the current protocol. S+S would become CoR. Given the protocol states mediation between parties is the first course of action, obviously LR and ETNZ could not reach MC which is why the situation has gone to the Arb. Panel. It is the panels decision to make, not ETNZ’s.

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19 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Maybe they want S+S to accidentally damage the other boats?   

You mean like Ben did before and during the event? First he took ETNZ out, then almost took SBTJ and himself out.

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Any reading of the DoG makes obvious that the driving purpose behind the competition is to build  a boat of a better design than the Defender.

The potential case of the Match being contested by two of the Defender’s boats is truly bizarre! Lol 

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Any reading of the DoG makes obvious that the driving purpose behind the competition is to build  a boat of a better design than the Defender.

The potential case of the Match being contested by two of the Defender’s boats is truly bizarre! Lol 

While I totally agree with you, especially taking into account how it came to the AC initially, the "driving purpose" is not part of the 4 corners of the Deed. Sigh...

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Ladies and gentlemen, I give you...

Te Tinihanga

yysw275971.jpg

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30 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

And people who had been saying no one would watch the Cup...is this 4th challenger going to change much?  Are 24 round robins really better---for what?   

The only way this Te Borrow entry will help the US win the Cup is if they ram the other boats.  And I doubt GD and NYYC are in cahoots to give over that annoying Defender venue stuff. 

Addendum

Would be funny as shit if DC rescinnded permission to use the name now, so as not to besmirch it. 

 

DC has also previously sailed a boat that wasn’t his in the Cup match itself. In 95 DC merged his S&S syndicate with  Pact 95 and used Kevin Mahaneys boat to defend instead of his own

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18 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Any reading of the DoG makes obvious that the driving purpose behind the competition is to build  a boat of a better design than the Defender.

The potential case of the Match being contested by two of the Defender’s boats is truly bizarre! Lol 

SBTJ.

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Protocol changes still require only consent from LR, right? ETNZ apparently want it, already.

The Class Rule is the document that by now requires consent by all Challs, right? 
 

IF the above is true then it’ll be up to LR. While ‘Prada’ may be in favor for more-boats, more-races reasons, it’s very hard to see why the race team LR would want any part of this. 

Obviously it’s gone past that point. LR obviously didn’t agree which is why the Arb panel is now involved.

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14 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you...

Te Tinihanga

yysw275971.jpg

Please provide a rule they have broken.

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

There are some shallow similarities but Japan complied with the AC35 Prot’s CIC clause (weak, but it was spelled out clearly), and they came with their own boat, designers, shore crew and base. Holroyd spoke several times of that team’s foil design and system design approaches. They also gave Artemis a pretty good run for their money in the CSS and, behind Artemis recorded the second-fastest speeds and VMG’s of all the racing in Bermuda. 
 

They did a couple practice starts with Oracle later but a more pertinent example in the AC may be how ETNZ, even after winning the LV in Valencia, did trial runs against Alinghi’s Defender prior to the Match. 

Japan were never independent of Oracle. They bought Oracles B1 and built 2 metres of bow (Which were one design anyway) to attach to the front. 
As for the practice starts... Ken Read said Oracle have been out here every day, pre start practicing against Oracle. And they were both destroyed anyway! In this instance, it is merely S+S gaining permission from ETNZ to use their B1. Team NZ obviously granted permission and said “you guys work out the details”  and this is where it is.

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Umm has anyone seen any official documentation to say this actually happening? 

Seems to me it's just TE laying clickbait.

It's certainly got some trolls clicking.

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Ehman “This has never happened before” Pact 95 - S&S? SBTJ? Artemis Racing 2013.

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Just now, Forourselves said:

Ehman “This has never happened before” Pact 95? SBTJ? Artemis Racing 2013.

Is there an echo in here?

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15 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Obviously it’s gone past that point. LR obviously didn’t agree which is why the Arb panel is now involved.

Yes, that’s possible.

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14 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Japan were never independent of Oracle. 

SBTJ had their own boat, organization, and designers with a keen-to-win Dean Barker as skipper, a very well-respected Holroyd too. Even had an ACWS held in Japan at the YC they represented. As well as ... A sponsor (Japanese) worth tens of $Billions!!! 
 

I’m sorry, there’s little comparison that can be drawn. 

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11 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Ehman “This has never happened before” Pact 95 - S&S? SBTJ? Artemis Racing 2013.

Pact 95 was a US built and designed boat, see SBTJ comment above, Artemis was about late safety measures and the other Challs agreed it for AR. 

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

SBTJ had their own boat, organization, and designers with a keen-to-win Dean Barker as skipper, a very well-respected Holroyd too. Even had an ACWS held in Japan at the YC they represented. As well as ... A sponsor (Japanese) worth tens of $Billions!!! 
 

I’m sorry, there’s little comparison that can be drawn. 

They bought Oracles boat. It wasn’t their own. Essentially they ran Team Japan the same way they run the SailGP teams. Larry and Russell back the teams, they’re all paid from the same wallet, but they just give them National identities to garner support, which is why Japan ended the same time Oracle did. But you’re right, there is no comparison this time. ETNZ simply said “you can use our boat 1, but you work out the details”.

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17 minutes ago, Woolfy said:

Umm has anyone seen any official documentation to say this actually happening? 

Seems to me it's just TE laying clickbait.

It's certainly got some trolls clicking.

Scroll up for a response by ETNZ in the NewsHub article. They are apparently party to it. 

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6 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

SBTJ had their own boat, organization, and designers with a keen-to-win Dean Barker as skipper, a very well-respected Holroyd too. Even had an ACWS held in Japan at the YC they represented. As well as ... A sponsor (Japanese) worth tens of $Billions!!! 
 

I’m sorry, there’s little comparison that can be drawn. 

You are right in one way - S+S don't have anyone on ETNZs payroll like SB did with OTUSA. ^_^

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And DC used another US boat from the Citizens Cup process, not a challenger boat. It's mixing defender and challenger that is even more egregious than Stars+Scam sailing in Te Borrow. Or maybe Te Cuckoo is a better name. Puts its eggs in another bird's nest.

I christen thee "Te Wharauroa" and pour bottle of Kim Crawford over bow while Randy Newman song plays

 

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Just now, Forourselves said:

ETNZ simply said “you can use our boat 1, but you work out the details”.

Will agree some with at least this part of your post. Maybe the Arb Panel decision, if it gets that far and is published, will suggest whose idea it was, etc. 

Am curious: Why are you defending this pretty-cockamamie proposed arrangement? 

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1 minute ago, rh3000 said:

You are right in one way - S+S don't have anyone on ETNZs payroll like SB did with OTUSA. ^_^

Proof please? SB’s sponsorship was likely enormous and that team had honest aspirations to win. 

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4 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Pact 95 was a US built and designed boat, see SBTJ comment above, Artemis was about late safety measures and the other Challs agreed it for AR. 

Where the boat is built is irrelevant. Japan’s boat wasn’t built in Japan, save two 2 metre one design bow portions. Pact 95 wasn’t DC’s boat. It wasn’t built designed, or raced by S&S until the cup match. Look, I was, am and always will be, for Artemis Racing getting to the start line in 2013. What ever it was about, that boat was not an AC72. That team had only been sailing a few days and jumped straight in against LR. It was good for the event, the team and the competition. I’m for this too, if the Challengers can work out the details. I don’t care how competitive they are, or aren’t. I hope they get to the start line, even if it is in ETNZs B1.

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5 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

I christen thee "Te Wharauroa" and pour bottle of Kim Crawford over bow while Randy Newman song plays

 

Great video! :)

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4 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

I’m for this too, if the Challengers can work out the details. I don’t care how competitive they are, or aren’t. I hope they get to the start line, even if it is in ETNZs B1.

Why? You are pointing accusatory fingers at past syndicates, so... Why? 

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19 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Proof please? SB’s sponsorship was likely enormous and that team had honest aspirations to win. 

Well I can't provide payslips. But if you have any real access to SB/OTUSA people you already know the truth.

My information comes first-hand directly from NZers who were on teams in Bermuda - make of that what you will.

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3 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

And DC used another US boat from the Citizens Cup process, not a challenger boat. It's mixing defender and challenger that is even more egregious than Stars+Scam sailing in Te Borrow. Or maybe Te Cuckoo is a better name. Puts its eggs in another bird's nest.

I christen thee "Te Wharauroa" and pour bottle of Kim Crawford over bow while Randy Newman song plays

 

Citizens Cup, Prada Cup, the trophy names are irrelevant. Those boats and campaigns were racing each other to become the Defender. They weren’t an in house trial set up. By the end, they had all signed a deal that who ever won, would get the pick of those 3 boats to use for the match. It was a co ordinated  process between 3 independent campaigns. But you’re right, it’s an egregious flout of the rules.

compattmentalise this situation for a second. Stars + Stripes asked permission to use Te Aihe to get to the start line, it was granted. ETNZ then said “it’s an issue for the challengers to work through” essentially they said, you can use our boat, but you sort the details out. 

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3 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Why? You are pointing accusatory fingers at past syndicates, so... Why? 

Because they were Co ordinated efforts. This as far as we know is ETNZ granting permission to S+S to use their B1. The rest is up to the Challengers/ Arbitration Panel to sort out.

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

 Stars + Stripes asked permission to use Te Aihe to get to the start line, it was granted.

From what I've read we don't actually know this. I suspect ETNZ heard S+S's request and said 'why don't you go try your luck with CoR/ARB and if you get over that hurdle then we can talk"

 

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Stars + Stripes asked permission to use Te Aihe to get to the start line, it was granted. ETNZ then said “it’s an issue for the challengers to work through” essentially they said, you can use our boat, but you sort the details out. 

While that is a plausible explanation, another one is that ETNZ demanded of S+S that they participate, or else get sued for the millions they owe ETNZ. 
 

Again, maybe an Arb panel decision, or interviews by principals in the meantime, will shed more light. But any way you look at it, it’s a VERY strange prospect:

A Defender’s build and designed yacht, against the Defender’s built and designed yacht, in a Match for the America’s Cup! 

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13 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Proof please? SB’s sponsorship was likely enormous and that team had honest aspirations to win. 

They had the same major sponsorships as Oracle had. Airbus, Panerai and Parker Hannifin. 

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

While that is a plausible explanation, another one is that ETNZ demanded of S+S that they participate, or else get sued for the millions they owe ETNZ. 
 

Again, maybe an Arb panel decision, or interviews by principals in the meantime, will shed more light. But any way you look at it, it’s a VERY strange prospect:

A Defender’s build and designed yacht, against the Defender’s built and designed yacht, in a Match for the America’s Cup! 

Would’ve been the same if Japan had made the match last time.

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3 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

From what I've read we don't actually know this. I suspect ETNZ heard S+S's request and said 'why don't you go try your luck with CoR/ARB and if you get over that hurdle then we can talk"

 

Agreed, though it’d be pretty strange to not go to the team who’s boat you’re wanting to use first? What would the AC be without controversy!

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Just now, Forourselves said:

They had the same major sponsorships as Oracle had. Airbus, Panerai and Parker Hannifin. 

They were a damn good team, not some ‘S+S’ flash in the pan couple guys who haven’t even seen, let alone sailed, a Cup boat - only a few months before the Match.  The whole thing is ridiculous.

If this was an ask by S+S then ETNZ/RNZYS should have said ‘No.’

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5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

While that is a plausible explanation, another one is that ETNZ demanded of S+S that they participate, or else get sued for the millions they owe ETNZ. 
 

Again, maybe an Arb panel decision, or interviews by principals in the meantime, will shed more light. But any way you look at it, it’s a VERY strange prospect:

A Defender’s build and designed yacht, against the Defender’s built and designed yacht, in a Match for the America’s Cup! 

A horrible thought, if there's any respect of the Deed left.

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How long has this been in the works? Is this what S+S meant by "we'll be in Auckland" lo these many months ago, after their boat building fizzled and funding campaign collapsed? So are Canfield and Buckley in quarantine now? Anybody seen them? How many more US residents/citizens do they need to get into NZ or are they getting THAT nationality rule arb'd away, too #becausejobs for Kiwi sailors? Are they bringing the SGP US team over to sail Te Wharauroa? 

Do you honestly think it is ok for a challenging yacht club that never could get a team together or boat built to borrow a Defender’s boat to compete with challengers that did fund and form teams and build boats? 

After all the moaning and screaming and venom about OTAUS and how they cheated and screwed over ETNZ, people are now saying THIS IS OK BECAUSE IT IS NO DIFFERENT FROM WHAT LARRY DID?

Sheesh. I look forward to an Ineos victory.

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4 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Would’ve been the same if Japan had made the match last time.

SBTJ were protocol compliant and other Challs had the opportunity to also have most of their hulls laminated at Core. 

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13 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Agreed, though it’d be pretty strange to not go to the team who’s boat you’re wanting to use first? What would the AC be without controversy!

Oh I'm sure s+s have asked, but ETNZs leverage comes if s+s manage to get though Cor/ARB and then truly have a shot at sailing.

So ETNZ likely will reserve decision based on terms negotiated at the point they have maximum leverage. If it even ever comes to pass. Indeed why waste precious time negotiating and scenario planning now when to might not even happen.

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1 minute ago, Rennmaus said:

A horrible thought, if there's any respect of the Deed left.

Thank you! :)

I did get your ‘4 Corners’ post above but this point just seems so central to the DoG. 

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

They were a damn good team, not some ‘S+S’ flash in the pan couple guys who haven’t even seen, let alone sailed, a Cup boat - only a few months before the Match.  The whole thing is ridiculous.

If this was an ask by S+S then ETNZ/RNZYS should have said ‘No.’

How good the team is makes no difference to rules.

We don't know what ETNZ have said...

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Just now, Stingray~ said:

They were a damn good team, not some ‘S+S’ flash in the pan couple guys who haven’t even seen, let alone sailed, a Cup boat - only a few months before the Match.  The whole thing is ridiculous.

If this was an ask by S+S then ETNZ/RNZYS should have said ‘No.’

They were essentially a team of disgruntled ex Team NZ guys who were snapped up by Oracle. Canfield is a damn good sailor in his own right. 
Why should they have said No? That’s even more ridiculous! More challengers makes for a better event no matter how you look at it! Maybe they should’ve said No Artemis in 2013 too huh? 

 

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

SBTJ were protocol compliant and other Challs had the opportunity to also have most of their hulls laminated at Core. 

Only after LR withdrew because of breaches of that same protocol.

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Just now, Forourselves said:

Maybe they should’ve said No Artemis in 2013 too huh? 

 

Ummmm....

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3 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Thank you! :)

I did get your ‘4 Corners’ post above but this point just seems so central to the DoG. 

“Friendly competition between Nations” does this not satisfy that intent? 

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2 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

 

Do you honestly think it is ok for a challenging yacht club that never could get a team together or boat built to borrow a Defender’s boat to compete with challengers that did fund and form teams and build boats? 

After all the moaning and screaming and venom about OTAUS and how they cheated and screwed over ETNZ, people are now saying THIS IS OK BECAUSE IT IS NO DIFFERENT FROM WHAT LARRY DID?

Sheesh. I look forward to an Ineos victory.

You are presaging what ETNZ has done... It's going to cor/ARB so let's just wait and see.

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Why should they have said No? That’s even more ridiculous! More challengers makes for a better event no matter how you look at it!

More Challengers, while a good thing, is not the point of the AC competition at the sharp end of the stick. 

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To date, the protocol has been followed. Disputes are settled with the Arbitration panel as per the protocol. It is with the Arbitration Panel to decide.

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

Thank you! :)

I did get your ‘4 Corners’ post above but this point just seems so central to the DoG. 

Don't confuse my personal wish/opinion with what the DoG says.
I'd like to see S&S in AKL, I'd like to see them in a DoG/proto-compliant boat. I know that Artemis raced in a non-compliant boat, and I hated it. Not because it was Artemis, that had all my sympathy, but because the Deed was cheated on.

And then there are the 4 corners and the proto wording that may or may not destroy all my wishes anyway.

Again, what I like to see happening and what is feasible under the rules may be two totally different things. And in the end I'll be with the Deed (you know how much I admire this document).

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3 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Only after LR withdrew because of breaches of that same protocol.

LR was outvoted. ETNZ stayed in, despite voting with LR. It was protocol-legal, although admittedly a bit screwy. 

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8 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

How long has this been in the works? Is this what S+S meant by "we'll be in Auckland" lo these many months ago, after their boat building fizzled and funding campaign collapsed? So are Canfield and Buckley in quarantine now? Anybody seen them? How many more US residents/citizens do they need to get into NZ or are they getting THAT nationality rule arb'd away, too #becausejobs for Kiwi sailors? Are they bringing the SGP US team over to sail Te Wharauroa? 

Do you honestly think it is ok for a challenging yacht club that never could get a team together or boat built to borrow a Defender’s boat to compete with challengers that did fund and form teams and build boats? 

After all the moaning and screaming and venom about OTAUS and how they cheated and screwed over ETNZ, people are now saying THIS IS OK BECAUSE IT IS NO DIFFERENT FROM WHAT LARRY DID?

Sheesh. I look forward to an Ineos victory.

Everybody knows you only whinge when you're the victim getting screwed. When you're the perpetrator, it's your "right" to screw. At least that's how it goes in New Squealand.

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

More Challengers, while a good thing, is not the point of the AC competition at the sharp end of the stick. 

No, it’s not. The AC is contested between the Defender and Challenger only. Fast forward to 2021 and the event is a made for TV/ Internet sport complete with fans, sponsors and TV broadcasters hence the excitement aspect. More teams makes for a better event. Like it or not, it’s the world we live in.

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4 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

More Challengers, while a good thing, is not the point of the AC competition at the sharp end of the stick. 

This is a great point. The Emiratis have turned "The Pinnacle of Sailing" into "The Cesspool Regatta".

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

LR was outvoted. ETNZ stayed in, despite voting with LR. It was protocol-legal, although admittedly a bit screwy. 

They were, but what led to this? The late change of boat, the breach of protocol that saw an agreement between the commissioner of ACEA and ETNZ broken jeopardising ETNZs chances of competing leading to the firing of the commissioner and an IJ ruling that saw an ETNZ win and financial compensation being paid to them.

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1 minute ago, smackdaddy said:

This is a great point. The Emiratis have turned "The Pinnacle of Sailing" into "The Cesspool Regatta".

Aww boo fucking hoo crybaby

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4 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

More teams makes for a better event. Like it or not, it’s the world we live in.

There are regattas with supplied boats. Those regattas are not the America’s Cup. 

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Crikey this is getting to be stranger than fiction.

We could wait 6 weeks for the arbitration panel to hand down a decision can it be appealed.

 

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Just now, Stingray~ said:

There are regattas with supplied boats. Those regattas are not the America’s Cup. 

Actually, the deliverable to have a huuuuuuge CSS/AC regatta became kind of mandatory with AC32 and the protocol negotiated between SNG and GGYC. GGYC/Oracle set this target after AC33 and failed. Things got slightly better in Bermuda, but deteriorated for AC36, as we know.
Having as many challengers as possible became a necessity, although (and here is the Deed again) all it takes are two boats and a couple of marks.

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1 minute ago, Priscilla said:

Crikey this is getting to be stranger than fiction.

It’s so strange that it’s likely not worth worrying about. But it’s a pretty fun subject to bat around before the Arb decision comes :) 

As far as ‘appeals’ go, well put yourself in the shoes of the current Bonafide Challengers, let alone the Malta’s and Dutch efforts. 

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Heh - I think AC36 is turning into the best possible advertisement for SailGP imaginable - for both the public and for professional sailors. It's all that's left at the top tier now.

Nice work ETNZ!

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5 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

a couple of marks.

Three, Rennie, three! ‘Triangular’ 

oh wait, were we counting the start line marker? 
 

Fun stuff for a gorgeous lakeside but isolated Saturday afternoon in Seattle. 
 

Can’t believe that this wild a rumor proved to have legs so solid that ETNZ have even confirmed it, lol 

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Just now, Stingray~ said:

Three, Rennie, three! ‘Triangular’ 

oh wait, were we counting the start line marker? 
 

Fun stuff for a gorgeous lakeside but isolated Saturday afternoon in Seattle. 
 

Can’t believe this rumor proved to have legs so solid that ETNZ have even confirmed it, lol 

Haha, "a couple" as in "some".
But yes, removing the memory dust going back to AC32 to 35, and rehashing Deed knowledge and interpretations really is fun. Brings back cool memories B).

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11 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Brings back cool memories B).

Do you remember the Spanish seagulls, on the beach boardwalk east of the Darsegna where the good bars were?
 

Felt compelled to bring seagulls into this funniness too :)

 

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32 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Everybody knows you only whinge when you're the victim getting screwed. When you're the perpetrator, it's your "right" to screw. At least that's how it goes in New Squealand.

:lol:

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Just now, Stingray~ said:

Do you remember the Spanish seagulls, on the beach boardwalk east of the Darsegna? 
 

Felt compelled to bring seagulls into this funniness too :8 

 

There is quire some seagullery in the Ineos thread.
VLC seagulls are impressive, but the biggest, loudest and diarrheaest live in Lorient. I've never washed my rental car during a vacation stay... until I went to Lorient.

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20 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

 
 

Can’t believe that this wild a rumor proved to have legs so solid that ETNZ have even confirmed it, lol 

Where? Link please...to an ETNZ official outlet, not a click gathering media outlet.

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16 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

There is quire some seagullery in the Ineos thread.
VLC seagulls are impressive, but the biggest, loudest and diarrheaest live in Lorient. I've never washed my rental car during a vacation stay... until I went to Lorient.

Dang! I bet.

I like the Roman seagulls, they’re very good looking. Fed sardines to a family of them who were nesting on a roof below the balcony of the place I rented most recently there. Surprisingly, they’re protected, you can’t destroy their nests. Seagullery reigns! 
 

I forget if the birds I am remembering soaring along the Malvarossa beach were gulls or not but I do know this with absolute certainty: They were a lot dang faster than Britannia :D 

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Assuming this is even true, it is telling that ETNZ are giving up the chance to sail both of their boats simultaneously during the CSS. Did they get all the data needed from the first boat and can plug that into a chase boat to race against as they have done previously or is Te Kahu really fast enough to go up against boat 2 in a meaningful way. 

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2 minutes ago, amc said:

Assuming this is even true, it is telling that ETNZ are giving up the chance to sail both of their boats simultaneously

I doubt it was in their plan to maintain and sail two AC75’s simultaneously, it’d take a bigger operation than what they can afford.  

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Any reading of the DoG makes obvious that the driving purpose behind the competition is to build  a boat of a better design than the Defender.

The potential case of the Match being contested by two of the Defender’s boats is truly bizarre! Lol 

Maybe the assumption/hope is that, in the somewhat unlikely event that S+S wins out and gets to the Match, they'd take one of NYYC's boats in, à la Connor going into the '95 Match with USA-36?

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11 minutes ago, Halidon said:

Maybe the assumption/hope is that, in the somewhat unlikely event that S+S wins out and gets to the Match, they'd take one of NYYC's boats in, à la Connor going into the '95 Match with USA-36?

Yes, it’s a (very unlikely) possibility. But I doubt ‘S+S’ would sail it, even if it were to represent the LBYC instead of AM’s NYYC.  
 

The AM crew would have big leverage in that eventuality since it’d be their boat program. 

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Will agree some with at least this part of your post. Maybe the Arb Panel decision, if it gets that far and is published, will suggest whose idea it was, etc. 

Am curious: Why are you defending this pretty-cockamamie proposed arrangement? 

Because it would be great to see as many AC75’s being launched, rigged and sailed around Auckland as possible. Secondly, instead of a boat sitting in a shed doing nothing, it will be raced in anger. Thirdly, it would be great to see talented guys like Canfield get a chance to play in the big leagues of the AC. Why would you not support it? While we’re at it, a few months ago you said Canfield and co would be ridiculously uncompetitive in their own boat, which was to be identical to Te Aihe anyway, so to now say they’d give ETNZ a yardstick to measure in the CSS doesn’t make sense because they’d be so far off the pace that there would be no useful yardstick with which to measure. Right?

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so you get the world match race series in identical boats pitting the best teams against each other...and then the AC which was to be design teams from home countries pitting best designs again each other and then race each other. So we now have a single person (ok maybe two), that is going to rent a boat from another country, with others peoples money, that is known that he does not have, to sail against teams that have spent considerable resources to design a boat and refine a boat, per the rules, and then on top of that use a crew that is rented...wtf? some people have no shame...what a sham..

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