The Profit

Stars and Stripes Team USA is gone

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10 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Proof please? SB’s sponsorship was likely enormous and that team had honest aspirations to win. 

Just not for any other challengers to win right? After all, they assisted Oracle in pre start training more than “a couple of times” the only reason you assist another team is to help them achieve their goal - Defending. Their priority was to keep the cup in the Oracle camp by either winning it themselves Or helping Oracle to retain against Team NZ. Certainly goes against the intent of a “challenge trophy” if Ehman wants to talk betrayal of challengers he need look no further than Bermuda 2017 and the betrayal of all challengers by SBTJ.

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3 hours ago, atwinda said:

Here's some wild speculation for you folks... What if S+S had the front bit of their mold and were able to layup that section, and splice It onto ETNZ B1 would it be possible for them to fulfill the CIC constraint?

No. Modifications are not restricted by the CiC requirement, but are limited to 12.5% of the area of the hull (Protocol clause 11.1 b). So they could cut off Te Aihe's bow and replace it, but it would still be an NZ hull. An alternative would be to cannibalise Te Aihe and use the bits in the S&S hull.

3 hours ago, atwinda said:

Could their request with the panel include a "we could go to this whole extreme, or can we just agree to let us use the boat for the benefit of the event?"

It's not up the AP, it can only interpret the protocol, it can't change it. It's up to LR and ETNZ to change the protocol and both must agree. The only reasons put forward for ENTZ to support this is to get some cash and to disrupt the challengers. What motivation would LR have?

Here is the section from the Protocol:

9. CONSTRUCTED IN THE COUNTRY REQUIREMENT FOR YACHTS.

9.1. The Deed of Gift requirement that the yacht of a challenging yacht club be constructed in the country of the challenging yacht club, and the yacht representing the yacht club holding the America’s Cup be constructed in the country of such yacht club, shall be deemed to be satisfied by the lamination or another form of construction of the hull in such country. Replaceable bows and sterns, materials, tooling and other components and hardware used in or during the lamination or other form of construction of the hull may be obtained from any country. In order to ensure compliance with this Article the following provisions shall apply:

a) Competitor shall arrange in a timely manner for a member of the Measurement Committee to inspect the hull at the place of construction to determine whether the hull has been constructed in accordance with this Article and, if this rule is met, the Measurement Committee shall certify it as per its findings, (“Constructed in the Country Certificate”). Such a certificate by the Measurement Committee shall be final;

b) for the avoidance of doubt, the fabrication, acquisition or use of any component, materials or resources used to complete an AC75 Class Yacht may be sourced without restriction as to their country of origin, place of fabrication, assembly, construction or development, but any such component, materials or resources must nevertheless comply with the AC75 Class Rule; and

c) the repair, modification or replacement of any part of an AC75 Class Yacht that has received the Constructed in the Country Certificate may be undertaken in any country.

So the starting point is to have a hull (presumably that measures to the rule) constructed in the competitor's country of origin. Without that, a challenge has no boat.

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11 minutes ago, RobG said:

So the starting point is to have a hull (presumably that measures to the rule) constructed in the competitor's country of origin. Without that, a challenge has no boat.

So why on earth would Canfield and Co go to the arbitration panel with a request to sign off on making the purchase of say Te Aihe tenable without the tacit approval of TNZ.

The only response from TNZ is that it is up to the panel to decide.

Yeah right.

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The protocol is clear in terms of CiC. They must be arguing for dispensation, probably something to do with Covid being an act of god prevented them from class Rule compliance. There is precedent for such a case in Artemis Racing being granted dispensation to race outside of class rule measurement in 2013.

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2 hours ago, NZL4EVER said:

What does Emirates position matter now? Grant got the money well before Covid was a threat to the world. Emirates could go bust and it wouldn't matter the money has changed hands and pretty much been spent.

 

Sponsorship agreements usually include obligatory ladders/steps/gateways to be met. There might even be clauses stipulating best efforts in liquidating unused assets to be offset against existing sponsor funding. Emirates came in slightly later and got naming rights. That could be a tough if not onerous deal. ETNZ did get Gov wage help, so though it may be tight, they have a track record on going to the line and coming through. Maybe they've made S&S an offer low enough they can't refuse.

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So if ETNZ give away Flipper, would that free them up to build another set of foils?  I can’t imagine the challengers would be too happy about that. 

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They actually need to finish a set of foils first, as it has a mixed set currently. 
 

but it’s in interesting idea, it would potentially mean the second hand boat team could build a set for the kiwis in return? 

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10 hours ago, chesirecat said:

Same.

Prada were struggling 4th quarter last year and his factory in Bergona was down to making masks during the pandemic so it wouldn't be a surprise. B was concerned about the LR's software costing 60m euros early on. Additionally ETNZ's budget must have been hit if they were able to claim subsidies based on 30/40% drop in income so offloading B1 (plus one assumes software, engineering, sailing, etc, support) might be on the "do now" list.
I really dont see S&S seeing any sense attempting this. It takes months to just to get the language (which also requires the relevant competitive racing experience) sorted on the boat and many months learning how to actually watch the thing and what to look for. Its just fantasy they can race meaning fully in the AC this time around and why get a B1 when a B2 could be available after this cup and that would assume the next cup will stay in the same class. 

Emirates are struggling

"More redundancies were expected at Emirates this week including both Airbus A380 and Boeing 777 pilots, the sources said on the condition of anonymity.
The workforce of 4,300 pilots and nearly 22,000 cabin crew could shrink by almost a third from its pre-coronavirus levels, three of the sources said."

Additionally NZ will be hitting recession late December this year so more purse tightening there. 

Absolutely, if Prada is struggling then ETNZ is struggling even more and only public money and national pride can make the difference, and we know the present controversy. If GD can get a few millions with S&S he will.

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It's too late for S&S. Why burn millions of dollars when you simply don't have a chance of winning? It must be SA Anarchy folks bored stuck at home that's keeping this thread alive. We need to freeze this thread just like the Larry's Circus one, who the fark cares? :D

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10 hours ago, Forourselves said:

If we strip this whole S+S situation back, we have no idea what’s gone on. TE says S+S has submitted a request to the AP to grant use of Te Aihe in the CSS. Neither S+S or ETNZ has confirmed it. Hypothetically, if S+S is granted permission, that decision rests squarely at the feet of the AP. The DoG does not apply to the CSS, as LR is the CoR and has full rights as Challenger representative. Their challenge must be fulfilled before any other challenge can be considered.

No, there is another possibility as the Challenger of Record may wish to relinquish its position.

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47 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

It's too late for S&S. Why burn millions of dollars when you simply don't have a chance of winning? It must be SA Anarchy folks bored stuck at home that's keeping this thread alive. We need to freeze this thread just like the Larry's Circus one, who the fark cares? :D

There's an easy fix: Just don't click on the threads you deem uninteresting.

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20 hours ago, rh3000 said:

Well I can't provide payslips. But if you have any real access to SB/OTUSA people you already know the truth.

My information comes first-hand directly from NZers who were on teams in Bermuda - make of that what you will.

Okay...

tenor.gif

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11 hours ago, Priscilla said:

The Hungarian Hustle shines a light on the robustness of TNZ accounting practices and the whistle blowers claims are yet to be disclosed via the court.

Booyah. And extra points for "Hungarian Hustle"...

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24 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

No, there is another possibility as the Challenger of Record may wish to relinquish its position.

Either way that challenge must be fulfilled before any other challenge can be considered whether it’s by winning, by elimination or withdrawal.

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12 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Either way that challenge must be fulfilled before any other challenge can be considered whether it’s by winning, by elimination or withdrawal.

No, there is a difference, if the CoR relinquishes its position TNZ can chose the next CoR.

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On 2/2/2020 at 4:42 PM, smackdaddy said:

https://www.sail-world.com/news/226186/Americas-Cup-US-team-hits-rules-headwinds

This is the biggest load of BS I've ever read. It's ETNZ desperately trying to find sponsors for S+S - simply to save its own dignity. And this part is beyond bollocks...

Quote

The young US team does have some substance, for which their media give them little credit - being the payment of the first tranche of $1million of a $2million Entry Fee. The team also has a partly built AC75 to a design package purchased from Emirates Team New Zealand. That basic design is believed to be very similar in concept to Te Aihe the first AC75 launched by Emirates Team New Zealand and which is about to head to the Cagliari ACWS, after a very successful four and a half months of trialing and development in Auckland.

The team are believed to have attracted three substantial sponsors.

Two are world-leading information technology and consulting companies. The third is a major international fashion house, headquartered in the USA.

You really expect a struggling team that has exactly 0 time on the water in any kind of foiling mono like this to build a boat that has already proven itself completely uncontrollable? Please.

As I predicted a long time ago, I think ETNZ will give this team Te Ahmed (through some ridiculous loophole) - and then will pull all kinds of under-the-table shenanigans to get them funded and to the line.

Quote

The second sponsor, a major technology player, also has a relationship with Emirates Team New Zealand ...

And it will ONLY for the benefit of ETNZ itself.

Quote

However the Auckland regattas would definitely be better for their participation.

I called this way back. And here we are.

S+S needs to die a dignified death and try next time. Tell the Emiratis and their Kiwi management to pound sand. This is freakin' embarrassing...for SDYC, for the US, for the entire sailing world - and especially this very screwed up America's Cup.

Gladwell, this isn't journalism. This pure and pathetic PR. And it stinks to high heaven.

Why look at that! I predicted this back in February (earlier even as noted when I heard Clownwell make the "guarantee" to TE).

Is the Hauraki Gulf the douche and Auckland the bag for the rest of the world? Sure seems so.

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1 hour ago, terrafirma said:

It's too late for S&S. Why burn millions of dollars when you simply don't have a chance of winning? It must be SA Anarchy folks bored stuck at home that's keeping this thread alive. We need to freeze this thread just like the Larry's Circus one, who the fark cares? :D

Why freeze it?  ETNZ confirmed its true. We have every right to mock this hilarious shit show!  (And I’m referring to Stars & Stripes, not ETNZ). 

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Just now, Monkey said:

Why freeze it?  ETNZ confirmed its true. We have every right to mock this hilarious shit show!  (And I’m referring to Stars & Stripes, not ETNZ). 

That's a distinction without a difference.

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SBOTJ was a rort that should never have been allowed, and this is just as bad - if not worse - so hopefully the AP puts it to bed.  The AC should be about designing your own boat and testing it out against the opposition to see if you're good enough.  If you want to buy a package and go racing, there's plenty of one-design circuits out there so go pick one.

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7 minutes ago, NSP said:

SBOTJ was a rort that should never have been allowed, and this is just as bad - if not worse - so hopefully the AP puts it to bed.  The AC should be about designing your own boat and testing it out against the opposition to see if you're good enough.  If you want to buy a package and go racing, there's plenty of one-design circuits out there so go pick one.

Young Australia

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56 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

No, there is a difference, if the CoR relinquishes its position TNZ can chose the next CoR.

So you’re saying Bertelli is going to sponsor the event, but relinquish their place as priority challenger and let someone else tell him what to do? That’s not realistic.

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34 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

So you’re saying Bertelli is going to sponsor the event, but relinquish their place as priority challenger and let someone else tell him what to do? That’s not realistic.

I am disgressing on rumours provided by TE.

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It's only the sponsors and "investors" that would burn more millions.  For the S+S organization whatever that is, it's revenue.

Theranos burned through a billion dollars but people got paid, buildings were rented, labs outfitted, lawyers and ad agencies hired.

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"The struggling American team have gone to the independent America's Cup arbitration panel, seeking permission to use a boat built in another country"

is there actual confirmation that this will specifically be Te Ahie ???

Eneos, LR will have a B1 that fits the reported criteria of 'built-in another country' and they won't be allowed to trial B1&B2 together so will be excess stock

 

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5 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

"The struggling American team have gone to the independent America's Cup arbitration panel, seeking permission to use a boat built in another country"

is there actual confirmation that this will specifically be Te Ahie ???

Eneos, LR will have a B1 that fits the reported criteria of 'built-in another country' and they won't be allowed to trial B1&B2 together so will be excess stock

 

A published quote from ETNZ does appear to confirm that it’s about Te Aihe. 

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4 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

A published quote from ETNZ does appear to confirm that it’s about Te Aihe. 

got a link?, cant find it

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I wonder if this is going to be a tipping point in America's Cup economics. As I think @Rennmaus said somewhere, the "requirement" for many challengers, huge tourism projections, big venue development plans came with AC32. 

In the new world where virtual is monetizable, pandemics may recur, maybe there could be at least some thinking about a Cup that isn't sold as a real estate development bonanza, at least. Sure there will be plans for spectators but for example, we like having the Superbowl in our stadium but don't go nuts building a lot of new hotels for it. 

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9 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

got a link?, cant find it

Look harder. Why should people spoonfeed you guys who can't seem to keep up?

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4 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

I wonder if this is going to be a tipping point in America's Cup economics. As I think @Rennmaus said somewhere, the "requirement" for many challengers, huge tourism projections, big venue development plans came with AC32. 

In the new world where virtual is monetizable, pandemics may recur, maybe there could be at least some thinking about a Cup that isn't sold as a real estate development bonanza, at least. Sure there will be plans for spectators but for example, we like having the Superbowl in our stadium but don't go nuts building a lot of new hotels for it. 

So right.
Apart from the uniqueness of the situation, AC33 in VLC was incredible. Intimate, exclusive, like an "insider job". I would not mind a low-scale event, as long as two cool yachts sail for The Cup.

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2 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

So right.
Apart from the uniqueness of the situation, AC33 in VLC was incredible. Intimate, exclusive, like an "insider job". I would not mind a low-scale event, as long as two cool yachts sail for The Cup.

Agreed about AC33, it was terrific in some ways.

But as you point out, this situation is unique in the world since NZ fans will be able to happily flock to the event by the tens of thousands, and so some amount of infrastructure will be good. 

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Just now, Stingray~ said:

Agreed about AC33, it was terrific in some ways.

But as you point out, this situation is unique in the world since NZ fans will be able to happily flock to the event by the tens of thousands, and so some amount of infrastructure will be good. 

Yup, and VLC already had the infrastructure, so not much venue related spending was required. Maybe a but base polishing, that was all.

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10 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

cheers,

yes that is the link that I found as well but it is only speculation that te ahie is the proposed boat

this is quite possibly a challenger team wanting to loan out a boat so they get 2 boat testing

etnz would be happy for S&S to borrow a boat from someone else to cover their ass with the competitor numbers

risk of having S&S breaking te Ahie foils or mast that might be required for the match is to high imo

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5 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

cheers,

yes that is the link that I found as well but it is only speculation that te ahie is the proposed boat

this is quite possibly a challenger team wanting to loan out a boat so they get 2 boat testing

etnz would be happy for S&S to borrow a boat from someone else to cover their ass with the competitor numbers

risk of having S&S breaking te Ahie foils or mast that might be required for the match is to high imo

It’s hard to know how specific the question was, that ETNZ was addressing, but the question almost surely included the detail that it is the Defender’s B1 boat being discussed. The key quote from ETNZ, which surely implies acquiescence or more, is:

Team NZ have told Newshub: "Essentially, it's an issue for the challengers to work through.”

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Iirc, TE mentioned on Friday during this segment that the Prada Cup Notice of Race says near the top that the over-arching DoG applies to the CSS too. So there’s another wrinkle fun to yak about. 

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If it was Defiant, the CiC is no problem. Mixing defenders and challengers is no problem. Sleaze factor, still an issue but not problem. But would NYYC be that "patriotic"?  

Which would weaken ETNZ more, having a US challenger and a half, or fighting thru pimping out Te Cuckoo related problems?

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also, who would supply the foils and mast ... lots of un-asked questions and answers

i dont know why S&S don't do a deal with AM for Boat 1 as it will be sitting in Auckland as a backup, no issue around nation of manufacture

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7 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

i dont know why S&S don't do a deal with AM for Boat 1 as it will be sitting in Auckland as a backup, no issue around nation of manufacture

I’m sure S+S would love that but TE has it on ‘good authority’ that there’s a snowball’s chance in hell of AM letting anyone else at their boats - for a good list of reasons. 

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If they lose the decision they can still try and race with defiant should NYCC wish to offer it for terms agreed.

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16 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

If they lose the decision they can still try and race with defiant should NYCC wish to offer it for terms agreed.

Can’t think if any reason at all why AM would want outsiders to have access to their boats and program.

I’m sure Canfield and Buckley are really good guys, maybe their secret sponsors too, but the obvious path would be to try join AM if they want in on the action, right? 

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Put C&B in one of the AC9Fs and let them time trial the punks as a exhibition. Anything else is ridiculous.

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28 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Can’t think if any reason at all why AM would want outsiders to have access to their boats and program.

AM's B2 will show how far off they were with B1. Three boats now have  a bustle/keel/whatever, one doesn't. Good opportunity to recoup a few $ on a now useless hull that likely was a good first effort but is now uncompetitive.

That doesn't make the proposition any more likely to succeed though.

 

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https://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=315849&cat=977&fm=newsmain%2cnarts

The challenger's yet to launch its boat with thoughts the challenge exists largely in name only.

But reports out of the US claim Stars and Stripes has gone to the independent arbitration panel to try to get permission to take over Team New Zealand's first boat Te Aihe for the Prada Cup.

To do that they will need to force a rule change that says the boat's hull and other components must be built in a syndicate's country of origin.

They must also convince the other challengers.

On a more realistic note, American Magic will launch their first boat Defiant on the Waitemata Harbour, nearly five months after it last sailed in Florida.

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5 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Link please?

(Heh)

Look up Te Borrow :)

That link is the only other one carrying the subject so far, maybe the NZ Herald is gunshy about reporting ETNZ-related news or rumors for now; more likely, ETNZ is refusing to answer to their questions? 

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On 7/25/2020 at 2:14 PM, smackdaddy said:

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you...

Te Tinihanga

yysw275971.jpg

I prefer the name above - it really sums it all up nicely...

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Can’t think if any reason at all why AM would want outsiders to have access to their boats and program.

True, but the same would apply to ETNZ, there's no less conjecture required in that hypothesis either.

Indeed, the more I think about it I wonder if this has been S+S's plan for a very very long time.

Early on it was determined they won't be able afford to build a boat, let alone two, so why not bide some time and see if they can purchase a discarded B1 from another team. Their request for concession might even just be about ensuring they have as many options on the table when it comes to kicking tyres.

This would further explain why their entry remains even whilst no boat is being built. 

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I respect and admire GD on a wide variety of AC subjects, but TE suggested in the same show where he revealed the existence of a submission to the AP early this past week by S+S (as TE had already been hinting  could happen before it did happen) that a big drain on the budgets of both ETNZ and ACE, is $Millions straight to GD. An easy decision by GD if he is The Decider. 

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4 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

True, but the same would apply to ETNZ, there's no less conjecture required in that hypothesis either.

It must be about money somehow, is the biggest reason I can think of. This and other recent news suggest there are financial problems, problems that the likes of AM and Ineos won’t give a Rattcliff’s  ass about. 

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

other recent news suggest there are financial problems

Do tell :-)

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4 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Look harder. Why should people spoonfeed you guys who can't seem to keep up?

Not everyone is in this cess pool all day everyday.

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1 minute ago, rh3000 said:

Do tell :-)

Just the ACE/ETNZ alleged double-dipping, widely reported. If there were nothing to that subject then you wouldn’t have high-level govt officials confirming a funds freeze to ACE until the forensics get satisfied. 

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7 minutes ago, JJD said:

Not everyone is in this cess pool all day everyday.

That's fine - but don't ask for spoonfuls of cess when you do ease into the pool. Dive for the turds yourself. Why should anyone do it for you? That's the point.

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Where is GD’s favorite big $Billionaire, the Italian Matteo? This kind of money should surely not be a problem? 

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4 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Just the ACE/ETNZ alleged double-dipping, widely reported. If there were nothing to that subject then you wouldn’t have high-level govt officials confirming a funds freeze to ACE until the forensics get satisfied. 

Double dipping? Not what I've seen. Alleged use of public funds for private endeavour is the story. Doesn't indicate lack of funds, perhaps the contrary.

The only state entity that wouldn't pause the release of funds to an organisation under audit as a result of allegations, is a state entity that wants to demonstrate the most basic mismanagement and lack of diligence. It does not indicate anything more than our public organisations in NZ function prudently and appropriately in a given situation. Something citizens of NZ are proud of, even if it gives other innuendo to play with. :-)

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18 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Double dipping? Not what I've seen. Alleged use of public funds for private endeavour is the story. Doesn't indicate lack of funds, perhaps the contrary.

The only state entity that wouldn't pause the release of funds to an organisation under audit as a result of allegations, is a state entity that wants to demonstrate the most basic mismanagement and lack of diligence. It does not indicate anything more than our public organisations in NZ function prudently and appropriately in a given situation. Something citizens of NZ are proud of, even if it gives other innuendo to play with. :-)

Sure, I followed the deliberations by the AUK Council and by the MBIE/Wellington folks when AC budget subjects were before them and, like in SF too, it was remarkably transparent, both live-streamed and recorded. Good govt and yes, you should be proud.

The rumors that GD is double-dipping have not yet been shown but if good transparency is maintained then it will be demonstrated, one way or the other, or more likely somewhere in between where it gets a bit hazy about if GD’s right or left hand won the argument in the end, both of them with the same middle-interest at heart. Which hand could reach higher? :D

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9 minutes ago, Hawke said:

Are you really referring to MBIE?

My point is, in this specific situation, pausing the funds is the only responsible thing to do, and does not indicate any more or less guilt on the part of ETNZ.

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On 7/26/2020 at 3:03 AM, Terry Hollis said:

That is not the only possibility, It could be another wealthy challenger who is prepared to pay for access to ETNZ technology.

Is that you, Ernesto?

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12 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

the "requirement" for many challengers, huge tourism projections, big venue development plans came with AC32. 

Not the first time I've seen this crap recently but its bullshit.

In my memory every AC since Perth '87 except the DoG Challenges has strived to be a big multi-Challenger tourism event.

Before my memory the '83 LVC had 7 Challengers, I dunno how much of a spectator event it was.

'87 absolutely was a major media/tourism event with 13 Challengers & 4 Defenders & as I recall was tied in with Aus bicentennial celebrations in '88.

'92 had 8 Challengers & 5 Defenders.

'95 had 7 Challengers & 4 Defenders.

AC2000 & AC2003 were unquestionably setup as a massive tourism big venue development setup.

Auckland had a super-shitty waterfront prior to the large development required for hosting AC2000. The absolute success of that was the impetus for all the further development since.

 

11 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Prada Cup Notice of Race says near the top that the over-arching DoG applies to the CSS too.

Like I fucking said the ONLY B1 that S&S can be allowed to sail other than one they built themselves is the AM B1.

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8 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

I prefer the name above - it really sums it all up nicely...

Oh Jeeeez. Not, leadgate and Herbie again. ;-)

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30 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Oh Jeeeez. Not, leadgate and Herbie again. ;-)

Nah. This is much more clumsy and obvious.

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If S&S want to borrow a boat to get into the challenger series, why not borrow(?) Defiant? Then the made in country issue evaporates. edit: oh - already suggested...

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What kind of contract could you write that gives you B1 back if there is damage to B2.

I think they'd get fucking annihilated but it's a neat idea at least. For the sake of the Cup I think more is better. 

Don would probably want to sail the boat to Mac island in 2022 though. 

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from https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2020/07/america-s-cup-challengers-running-scared-as-team-new-zealand-ponder-lending-boat-to-stars-stripes.html

American Magic looked right at home on the Waitemata - it's AC-75 foiling and flying in a light breeze. 

But it's another US team - Stars and Stripes - that's put a controversial spanner in the works.

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19 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

If it was Defiant, the CiC is no problem. Mixing defenders and challengers is no problem. Sleaze factor, still an issue but not problem. But would NYYC be that "patriotic"?  

Which would weaken ETNZ more, having a US challenger and a half, or fighting thru pimping out Te Cuckoo related problems?

I don't think NYYC is hard up for cash.  They may have other motivations to give up B1 but it's risky. 

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18 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

from https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2020/07/america-s-cup-challengers-running-scared-as-team-new-zealand-ponder-lending-boat-to-stars-stripes.html

American Magic looked right at home on the Waitemata - it's AC-75 foiling and flying in a light breeze. 

But it's another US team - Stars and Stripes - that's put a controversial spanner in the works.

Clownwell HAS to be getting paid by the Emiratis - surely - you don't just come up with stuff this blatantly stupid without having your beak wet...

Quote

It would most likely be Te Aihe - Team New Zealand's first boat - and Sail World editor, Richard Gladwell believes an extra boat in the challenger series benefits all parties. 

"If you look at what's best for the cup, it's certainly good for that," Gladwell told Newshub.

"The other guys might just have to get over themselves -  these guys [Stars & Stripess] have read the rules a bit better than the others." 

Are we sure Forourselves is not really Richard Gladwell? They appear to have the same lack of intellect and integrity.

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11 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

these guys [Stars & Stripess] have read the rules a bit better than the others." 

Yep, interesting quote there! Lol

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31 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Yep, interesting quote there! Lol

"What's best for the Cup?" - please. "What's best for GD." - more like it.

SDYC is now not only the laughing stock of yacht clubs in the US but - along with C&D - are utter sellouts and kiwicuddlers. These clowns have no right to fly the US flag.

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On 7/26/2020 at 6:58 AM, Monkey said:

So if ETNZ give away Flipper, would that free them up to build another set of foils?  I can’t imagine the challengers would be too happy about that. 

The foils were used for sailing an NZ AC75 hull so they would count towards the limit..  You don't get a reset just because you sold them, otherwise each team could sell multiple foils to some "sponsor" and start over.

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On 7/26/2020 at 2:06 AM, RobG said:

No. Modifications are not restricted by the CiC requirement, but are limited to 12.5% of the area of the hull (Protocol clause 11.1 b). So they could cut off Te Aihe's bow and replace it, but it would still be an NZ hull. An alternative would be to cannibalise Te Aihe and use the bits in the S&S hull.

It's not up the AP, it can only interpret the protocol, it can't change it. It's up to LR and ETNZ to change the protocol and both must agree. The only reasons put forward for ENTZ to support this is to get some cash and to disrupt the challengers. What motivation would LR have?

Here is the section from the Protocol:

9. CONSTRUCTED IN THE COUNTRY REQUIREMENT FOR YACHTS.

9.1. The Deed of Gift requirement that the yacht of a challenging yacht club be constructed in the country of the challenging yacht club, and the yacht representing the yacht club holding the America’s Cup be constructed in the country of such yacht club, shall be deemed to be satisfied by the lamination or another form of construction of the hull in such country. Replaceable bows and sterns, materials, tooling and other components and hardware used in or during the lamination or other form of construction of the hull may be obtained from any country. In order to ensure compliance with this Article the following provisions shall apply:

a) Competitor shall arrange in a timely manner for a member of the Measurement Committee to inspect the hull at the place of construction to determine whether the hull has been constructed in accordance with this Article and, if this rule is met, the Measurement Committee shall certify it as per its findings, (“Constructed in the Country Certificate”). Such a certificate by the Measurement Committee shall be final;

b) for the avoidance of doubt, the fabrication, acquisition or use of any component, materials or resources used to complete an AC75 Class Yacht may be sourced without restriction as to their country of origin, place of fabrication, assembly, construction or development, but any such component, materials or resources must nevertheless comply with the AC75 Class Rule; and

c) the repair, modification or replacement of any part of an AC75 Class Yacht that has received the Constructed in the Country Certificate may be undertaken in any country.

So the starting point is to have a hull (presumably that measures to the rule) constructed in the competitor's country of origin. Without that, a challenge has no boat.

That look very straight forward.  They would have to transport the hull back to the US and replace a lot of the material in a US location in order for it to even be considered for use by a US team. 

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Funny that a few months back everyone on here was saying how Stars + Stripes was not going to be competitive in their own boat (which was to be IDENTICAL to Te Aihe).

Fast forward a few months later and now those same people are saying it gives ETNZ a foot and a benchmark in the Challenger camp. How? If S+S are going to be easy beats in a boat Identical to the one they were supposed to build, how is that a worthwhile benchmark? If S+S gains entry and gets absolutely wiped out in the CSS, as everyone on here said they would, that benchmark would be useless.

Secondly, if S+S gain entry, that would be a decision made SOLELY, by the IAP.

The only way S+S gain entry is by dispensation. The Protocol is straight forward and clear. The hull or some part of its construction must be undertaken in the country it represents.

There may be some kind of  "act of god" scenario in regards to Covid 19 they can campaign on.

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3 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Fast forward a few months later and now those same people are saying it gives ETNZ a foot and a benchmark in the Challenger camp. How? If S+S are going to be easy beats in a boat Identical to the one they were supposed to build, how is that a worthwhile benchmark? If S+S gains entry and gets absolutely wiped out in the CSS, as everyone on here said they would, that benchmark would be useless.

I find the prospect of them getting hold of Te A highly, highly unlikely but playing along anyway for the fun of it..

Te A is not the boat S+S would have developed, and yes ETNZ know it’s abilities in incredible detail and so, whether it wins using S+S sailors or not, the benchmarking would happen. There’s almost nothing one can think of, that would be attractive to those Challs about it.

The AP decision could make for interesting reading since they often include submissions by the other teams. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

 

The AP decision could make for interesting reading since they often include submissions by the other teams. 

 

"It should be noted at this point in the deposition the anonymous representative from Team Ineos UK began to step up onto the table with veins bulging out of his forehead screaming 'if you fucking do this I'll gut you, I'm a knight dammit and they give you a sword for that you cunt!'"

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1 hour ago, smackdaddy said:

"What's best for the Cup?" - please. "What's best for GD." - more like it.

SDYC is now not only the laughing stock of yacht clubs in the US but - along with C&D - are utter sellouts and kiwicuddlers. These clowns have no right to fly the US flag.

It's Long Beach. LBYC. San Diego won it. 

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19 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

It's Long Beach. LBYC. San Diego won it. 

My mistake. Point stands.

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

That look very straight forward.  They would have to transport the hull back to the US and replace a lot of the material in a US location in order for it to even be considered for use by a US team. 

Not for the Prada cup. Those rules are for the AC so, in theory, S&S could enter the Prada cup with Te Aihe. If they won the Prada Cup they are then instantly the COR and can change the AC protocol with ETNZ and challenge for the AC. 

 

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55 minutes ago, RMac said:

"It should be noted at this point in the deposition the anonymous representative from Team Ineos UK began to step up onto the table with veins bulging out of his forehead screaming 'if you fucking do this I'll gut you, I'm a knight dammit and they give you a sword for that you cunt!'"

 

Thanks for the laugh, good one! :D 
 

it may not be far from the truth :D :D 

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8 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

Not for the Prada cup. Those rules are for the AC so, in theory, S&S could enter the Prada cup with Te Aihe. If they won the Prada Cup they are then instantly the COR and can change the AC protocol with ETNZ and challenge for the AC. 

 

Only via a protocol change that waters down the CiC specs, or if S+S laminate the hull in their country.
The current proto includes the Prada Cup (CSS) as well, bold mine:

"8.
ELIGIBILITY OF YACHTS.
Only the yachts complying with the AC75 Class Rule are eligible to compete in the Preliminary
Regattas, the CSS and the Match. However, COR/D may introduce alternative arrangements
for one or more of the ACWS events depending upon the number of Competitors and the
then number of AC 75 yachts available to compete at the time of the event.
9.
9.1.
CONSTRUCTED IN THE COUNTRY REQUIREMENT FOR YACHTS.
The Deed of Gift requirement that the yacht of a challenging yacht club be constructed in
the country of the challenging yacht club, and the yacht representing the yacht club holding
the America’s Cup be constructed in the country of such yacht club, shall be deemed to be
satisfied by the lamination or another form of construction of the hull in such country.
Replaceable bows and sterns, materials, tooling and other components and hardware used
in or during the lamination or other form of construction of the hull may be obtained from
any country. (...)"

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2 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

That look very straight forward.  They would have to transport the hull back to the US and replace a lot of the material in a US location in order for it to even be considered for use by a US team. 

But they are limited to only being able to change something like 15% of the hull......

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I was hoping the silly season would be over by now

 

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3 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

 

Are we sure Forourselves is not really Richard Gladwell? They appear to have the same lack of intellect and integrity.

Even Gladwell is right once in awhile. S Clarke never is.

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Am looking forward to submissions to the case, from the likes of NYYC/AM.


The whole idea is obviously against a multitude of AC36 rules but seeing what teams put the sharpest focus on will be informative, maybe even educational. The AP will have no wiggle room, is my bet.

TE has invited RG to debate the subject, either tomorrow or Friday on SI Live. 

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36 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Am looking forward to submissions to the case, from the likes of NYYC/AM.


The whole idea is obviously against a multitude of AC36 rules but seeing what teams put the sharpest focus on will be informative, maybe even educational. The AP will have no wiggle room, is my bet.

TE has invited RG to debate the subject, either tomorrow or Friday on SI Live. 

Am I missing something - or is the ONLY benefactor in all this as regards the participants the Emiratis? If the above interpretations regarding a pathway to CoR for these American Clowns is correct, this should not only be shut down now by the challengers and panel - C&B should be blackballed from sailing altogether for getting into bed with GD.

I'm still wondering about the Hungarian contingent at LBYC. This whole thing is utterly ridiculous. It makes AC36 even more of a turdblender than it already was.

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