Salty Seacock

Emirates Team New Zealand.

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4 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

I recall a comment about not seeing any pre-start practice... they did a very well controlled quick left-right maneuver from about 0:26, impressive in the light air.  I could see them using that as a feint, perhaps to force the opponent off the foils?

I counted 8 seconds between manoeuvres, kinda blows the 15 second FCS recharge time away, no?

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5 minutes ago, barfy said:

I counted 8 seconds between manoeuvres, kinda blows the 15 second FCS recharge time away, no?

That little zigzag really makes me pumped to see the first box entry. I think we will be pleasantly surprised with the prestart action.

At least until sir ben runs his raised foil through half a sailing team. 

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

 

Chris Steele commentates on footage from Friday 27th November, 2020 where he looks at the similarities and differences between Emirates Team New Zealand and Luna Rossa Prada Pirelli Team.
When ETNZ was being filmed, they were in the upper wind limits, and actually above the racing wind limits of about 24 knots.
Luna Rossa Prada Pirelli Team was in lighter conditions, around 18-20 knots.

Hope we get some analytical commentary from Chris again this cup. 

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20 minutes ago, kenergy said:

That little zigzag really makes me pumped to see the first box entry. I think we will be pleasantly surprised with the prestart action.

At least until sir ben runs his raised foil through half a sailing team. 

Oh no...please drug test Ben and take away the steroids...his neck is a dead giveaway

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35 minutes ago, kenergy said:
39 minutes ago, Nutta said:

Just re-watched that R8, to the horror of my wife. Jimmy's face at the end was like a busted arse...

If I recall correctly that was the race where we finally figured out that pistol pete wasnt too shit at the prestart.

I might just go and watch it again myself. 

I re-watch them every now and then, fucking awesome.

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33 minutes ago, barfy said:

I counted 8 seconds between manoeuvres, kinda blows the 15 second FCS recharge time away, no?

Not between arm lifts - which is what would require a full recharge. Dropping the arm shouldn't require significant assist.

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11 minutes ago, astro said:

I re-watch them every now and then, fucking awesome.

Burling just owned Jimmy in that pre start, it was a thing of beauty to park  Jimmy,  bear off and sailaway.......

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50 minutes ago, barfy said:

I counted 8 seconds between manoeuvres, kinda blows the 15 second FCS recharge time away, no?

Is that the time the electrical pump(?) system takes to rebuild hydraulic pressure?

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2 minutes ago, Navig8tor said:

Burling just owned Jimmy in that pre start, it was a thing of beauty to park  Jimmy,  bear off and sailaway.......

I'm hoping that's when we find out which hull shape really works, drop em in a hole and fuck off quick smart 

Maybe a good old fashioned dial up.

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There was a clip of ETNZ earlier today that showed quite some activity, followed by a touchdown, and very quick lift off. Not sure what the wind was,  but if they can do that pre start it'll be interesting....

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53 minutes ago, barfy said:

I counted 8 seconds between manoeuvres, kinda blows the 15 second FCS recharge time away, no?

Each of the arms is powered by it's own dc-powered hydraulic power pack, so they can zig-zag all day long:)

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8 minutes ago, Navig8tor said:

Burling just owned Jimmy in that pre start, it was a thing of beauty to park  Jimmy,  bear off and sailaway.......

After not understanding a reaching start, I am a convert now.  The starts were awesome.

But I have expectations of these new machines being even more exciting.  Here's hoping anyway.

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6 minutes ago, kenergy said:

I'm hoping that's when we find out which hull shape really works, drop em in a hole and fuck off quick smart 

Maybe a good old fashioned dial up.

My guess is most of the competition will not want to get their boat going slow so dial up will not be engaged if at all possible, some boats appear decidedly sticky in the light so once on their foils I'm guessing thats were they'll want to stay.

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On 11/29/2020 at 4:49 PM, DayTripper said:

That would fit with a low pressure area under the hull vaporising water.

I think you'll find that's a venturi effect from air passing under the keel, nothing to do with "ground effect".  It's not vaporising the water, just blowing spray off the surface.

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24 minutes ago, Navig8tor said:

My guess is most of the competition will not want to get their boat going slow so dial up will not be engaged if at all possible, some boats appear decidedly sticky in the light so once on their foils I'm guessing thats were they'll want to stay.

No doubt,  still be fun to see.

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2 hours ago, Navig8tor said:

My guess is most of the competition will not want to get their boat going slow so dial up will not be engaged if at all possible, some boats appear decidedly sticky in the light so once on their foils I'm guessing thats were they'll want to stay.

All well and good until the other guy forces the issue because his boat ain't as sticky.

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2 hours ago, RobG said:

I think you'll find that's a venturi effect from air passing under the keel, nothing to do with "ground effect".  It's not vaporising the water, just blowing spray off the surface.

A venturi creates a low pressure area.

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20 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

Prove it with pictures.  

I was going to check through my launch pics but this latest GMR vid does it better :wub:

Step through some of these turns and tell me its not concave around the arm hinges.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/212000-emirates-team-new-zealand/&do=findComment&comment=7297587

image.thumb.png.3750f8fafa003d65fb490c50b2b535d3.png

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9 hours ago, Boybland said:

All well and good until the other guy forces the issue because his boat ain't as sticky.

Like Pistol Pete did to Slick Jimmy the Aussie motormouth in R8 of AC35 

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12 hours ago, Indio said:

Each of the arms is powered by it's own dc-powered hydraulic power pack, so they can zig-zag all day long:)

There was some discussion of accumulator recharge time being 15 seconds. But as @Horn Rock points out,a drop doesn't count..so the time between tacks or gybes is 8 seconds as seen perhaps. Which will make for some interesting racing if it's tactically advantageous.

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4 hours ago, ivansh said:

 

Great to see the teams getting into competition mode. Bring it on.

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42 minutes ago, barfy said:

There was some discussion of accumulator recharge time being 15 seconds. But as @Horn Rock points out,a drop doesn't count..so the time between tacks or gybes is 8 seconds as seen perhaps. Which will make for some interesting racing if it's tactically advantageous.

wasnt the 15seconds quoted quite early on in the design stage of the supplied items?

I'm sure that if they upgraded the units/pumps etc and it was available for all teams they would have all jumped at it

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1 hour ago, kiwi39 said:

Like Pistol Pete did to Slick Jimmy the Aussie motormouth in R8 of AC35 

The next race was every bit as masterful. Kiwis gybed inside first, then just soaked down over the top of OTUSA. Devastating.

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15 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

The next race was every bit as masterful. Kiwis gybed inside first, then just soaked down over the top of OTUSA. Devastating.

I agree Pete Burling : "No Look" ... then the wheels over and they're gybing  ... BANG !!! Owned !!! 

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38 minutes ago, kiwi39 said:

I agree Pete Burling : "No Look" ... then the wheels over and they're gybing  ... BANG !!! Owned !!! 

Not interested in reliving Bermuda - glorious though it was.  But, very interested in what lays ahead, and it looks like a massive challenge.  LR and AM look very competitive, particularly higher up the wind range - not sure about the Brits with their large funky foils.  I reckon the path ahead for ETNZ is anything but plain sailing.  ETNZ do look good in light airs, which seem to be their specialty, but ac36 may not be sailed in light airs and to my eye ETNZ look a little less comfortable in windy conditions than LR and AM.  

However, looking at mean windspeed and direction below, during ac36 windspeed ought to be around the 8-14 knot mark.  

image.thumb.png.c8b9e977f429adeae842809213461bdc.png

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11 minutes ago, Apterix said:

However, looking at mean windspeed and direction below, during ac36 windspeed ought to be around the 8-14 knot mark. 

Ward said much the same on TE’s show, about how AM and LR look to have made choices that favor all-around conditions with a ‘flatter optimization curve’ than the more conditions-optimized choices that Ineos and ETNZ seem to have aimed for, with higher performance IF they get the narrower conditions range they’re guessing at. He then reminded folks of the regatta expression “But it’s always ‘never like this’ .“ 

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25 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Ward said much the same on TE’s show, about how AM and LR look to have made choices that favor all-around conditions with a ‘flatter optimization curve’ than the more conditions-optimized choices that Ineos and ETNZ seem to have aimed for, with higher performance IF they get the narrower conditions range they’re guessing at. He then reminded folks of the regatta expression “But it’s always ‘never like this’ .“ 

The point about average wind speed is that the wind NEVER blows at an average speed.  ;-)

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16 hours ago, barfy said:

Hope we get some analytical commentary from Chris again this cup. 

It was poor quality, I had to force myself to listen to the whole thing on the hope something good would seep through...it didn't. Will be avoiding further commentary from Chris.

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4 hours ago, Lickindip said:

wasnt the 15seconds quoted quite early on in the design stage of the supplied items?

I'm sure that if they upgraded the units/pumps etc and it was available for all teams they would have all jumped at it

The arms and their hydraulic drive systems are all one-design supplied items which they can't modify as I presume a safety decision - after all, you don't to run out of hydraulic power at an inopportune time causing an accident and a serious injury. Under our H&S regulations, that could pose problems for ETNZ as Defenders.

How to control the hydraulic system within their FCS is open slather - within the Rules.

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

The arms and their hydraulic drive systems are all one-design supplied items which they can't modify as I presume a safety decision - after all, you don't to run out of hydraulic power at an inopportune time causing an accident and a serious injury. Under our H&S regulations, that could pose problems for ETNZ as Defenders.

How to control the hydraulic system within their FCS is open slather - within the Rules.

yes it is one design ... but like the foil arms ... has te system had an upgrade from the original specs

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5 hours ago, fish7yu said:

 

That is some ride-height controller they've fine-tuned...

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3 hours ago, Indio said:

That is some ride-height controller they've fine-tuned...

Seems to be less hobby horsing than the other boats, which always seem to be going up and down, searching for the elusive low rider mode.

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3 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Seems to be less hobby horsing than the other boats, which always seem to be going up and down, searching for the elusive low rider mode.

It'll be very interesting to see during the upcoming practice sessions and in the ACWS if the Italians' ride-height is as consistent as ETNZ's, in light of all the BS claims by the northern hemisphere "experts" that ETNZ's AC50 controller was "donated" by the Italians LOL!!

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Experts like Max? That was part of the team?

vs fan boy saying no our team thought of it all by ourselves.

but to be sure it was right you thought you would use Pradas test ac45 with it all in just to be sure it worked ;-) 

Try before you buy at the foiling week Italy

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Back home with the new toy

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3 minutes ago, Indio said:

It'll be very interesting to see during the upcoming practice sessions and in the ACWS if the Italians' ride-height is as consistent as ETNZ's,

LR seems to be going up and down like the others. Less depth in their bow is not making their job any easier either. Their shape looks more difficult to low ride. Ineos control system looks the less developed - their hobby horsing looking the most pronounced.

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8 hours ago, Ncik said:

It was poor quality, I had to force myself to listen to the whole thing on the hope something good would seep through...it didn't. Will be avoiding further commentary from Chris.

Avoid away.

Cut to your illuminating commentary.

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Once up and flying, one would think that the foil flaps would be used to control ride height. 

However, do we think a viable technique would be to constantly adjust the cant of the foil arm? Lowering would increase vertical force, but a reduction of horizontal force to windward. That way the foil flaps could be left in a position of best lift/drag ratio for the speed.

Not sure if there would be a benefit to this.... just a thought. The cant of the arm is probably not responsive enough. It would be interesting to know if there is a combination of constant cant/flap adjustment going on for ride height, or if they just set the cant for a certain wind pressure and work 100% on flap. 

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13 minutes ago, D_Dog said:

Once up and flying, one would think that the foil flaps would be used to control ride height. 

However, do we think a viable technique would be to constantly adjust the cant of the foil arm? Lowering would increase vertical force, but a reduction of horizontal force to windward. That way the foil flaps could be left in a position of best lift/drag ratio for the speed.

Not sure if there would be a benefit to this.... just a thought. The cant of the arm is probably not responsive enough. It would be interesting to know if there is a combination of constant cant/flap adjustment going on for ride height, or if they just set the cant for a certain wind pressure and work 100% on flap. 

The flaps are powered by powerful responsive dc motors, so I'd say they'll be fanning the flaps, with the arms adjusting the angle of the foils only.

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1 minute ago, Indio said:

The flaps are powered by powerful responsive dc motors, so I'd say they'll be fanning the flaps, with the arms adjusting the angle of the foils only.

I think the DC actuators for flaps were for testing only. They needed to wean off the electrons and go to hand cranked oil to comply with the rule. 

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2 hours ago, DayTripper said:

Madness that way lies.

In the words of the great Humus Effectus

A rising tide lifts all boats

They speaketh the love that dare not speak its name

 

 

 

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Sort of related to ETNZ but a great opportunity has just arisen for Tuke/Burling in the demise of "the unlucky" Hugo Boss boat. Few changes to the boat, better looking blokes, and a wider audience, sponsors dream......................

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32 minutes ago, thetruth said:

Sort of related to ETNZ but a great opportunity has just arisen for Tuke/Burling in the demise of "the unlucky" Hugo Boss boat. Few changes to the boat, better looking blokes, and a wider audience, sponsors dream......................

Burling and tuke  may be many things but blessed with mass market charisma they are not. Certainly compared with Alex.

while the ocean dolphin friendly race team might stump up the cash for russel’s circus, I can’t see them chucking 6mill for a boat at the problem

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32 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Burling and tuke  may be many things but blessed with mass market charisma they are not. Certainly compared with Alex.

Also a huge leap from a history where the closest is a fully crewed Volvo boat to the Vendee. 

Anyone who has made the leap from fully crewed to single or double handed would I am sure agree with me that it is a very very different experience

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I just watched the Cam and Kevin video. 

If you were needing rescue at sea, you couldn't hope for a better man than Cam to be there for you. Amazing. 

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8 hours ago, barfy said:

I think the DC actuators for flaps were for testing only. They needed to wean off the electrons and go to hand cranked oil to comply with the rule. 

AC75 Class Rules Clause 24.2(e) permits electric actuators.

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

AC75 Class Rules Clause 24.2(e) permits electric actuators.

You are absolutely correct sir. With dedicated batteries. 

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13 hours ago, barfy said:

Cut to your illuminating commentary.

It's not my job to provide illuminating commentary. I was looking forward to LSD coverage as I've been a fan for years, but that particular video was a let-down.

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Te Rehutai was giving the CZ a good workout this morning, getting quite a bit of speed up and sailing all over the place, from the Bays down to the Paddock.

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What are the rules around the foresails? Number, area limits, when the teams have to commit to a sail setup, etc? If this is very open, with say just a maximum area limit, I can see foresail choice on teh day having a major affect on the race outcome.

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That ketch didn't have booms on Saturday. New Leisure furls or a refurb?.

Looks like they are setting up the main too.

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1 hour ago, weta27 said:

...

DSC_2212.JPG

Noice! Thank you. Talk about having to keep your head out of the boat... "hey pete, kayak off starboard bow".

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2 minutes ago, Varan said:

Noice! Thank you. Talk about having to keep your head out of the boat... "hey pete, kayak off starboard bow".

Bloody speedbumps shouldnt be alowed outside the harbour 

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Forgive me if this is a stupid question

Later this month, WIll NZ be sailing B1 or B2. I assume B2, But i only ask after watching this youtube clip where they say they are excited to put B2 onto the start line on March 6 (5:18)

 

 

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10 minutes ago, starlyte said:

Forgive me if this is a stupid question

Later this month, WIll NZ be sailing B1 or B2. I assume B2, But i only ask after watching this youtube clip where they say they are excited to put B2 onto the start line on March 6 (5:18)

It would be an interesting tactical move by NZ if they raced B1 in the Xmas series and then B2 in the cup itself. NZ would intimately know how B1 sails relatively to B2, but no one else would have a clue?

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5 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

It would be an interesting tactical move by NZ if they raced B1 in the Xmas series and then B2 in the cup itself. NZ would intimately know how B1 sails relatively to B2, but no one else would have a clue?

No going back to B1, it was striped of parts and they are being used on B2. There was photo on this thread earlier which showed B1 on dry dock with a cover over it.

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7 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

It would be an interesting tactical move by NZ if they raced B1 in the Xmas series and then B2 in the cup itself. NZ would intimately know how B1 sails relatively to B2, but no one else would have a clue?

Unless B2 is damaged or has major flaws, the chances of recommissioning B1 is very slim.

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6 hours ago, weta27 said:

Only on the Hauraki Gulf ...

DSC_2228.JPG

Half decent part of the world right now.

So grateful for the black passport.  

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33 minutes ago, zenmasterfred said:

I'll take the non foiler in this photo, no brainer!

Probably draws a bit too much water for a lot of nice spots in NZ.

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1 minute ago, Horn Rock said:

Probably draws a bit too much water for a lot of nice spots in NZ.

Yeah. Not suitable at all....

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20 hours ago, thetruth said:

Sort of related to ETNZ but a great opportunity has just arisen for Tuke/Burling in the demise of "the unlucky" Hugo Boss boat. Few changes to the boat, better looking blokes, and a wider audience, sponsors dream......................

Not sure they'll sneak past the solo requirement. That said, I sometimes wonder if they're not a single entity.

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7 hours ago, weta27 said:

Getting a bit arty-farty, sorry ...

DSC_2180.JPG

Mate. Right on cue for the Christmas Cup. Got that one with the Metrosideros excelsa in near view focus?

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59 minutes ago, I ride bikes said:

1:50-2:00

Yes, interesting stuff. Looks like they accelerate with very little lift on the foil then suddenly kick it in the guts at a specific speed, hence the sudden increase in wake off the foil. 

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44 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

 

Start 'em early. Awesome.

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19 minutes ago, Flippin Out said:

Yep, maneuvers no where near as quick with that up. 

I think I saw one manoeuver where they stayed up, but mostly they seem to go ker plop. Big clumsy things. If the next cup is still in these boats, scrapping the CZ will be one of the first amendments.

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48 minutes ago, D_Dog said:

Yes, interesting stuff. Looks like they accelerate with very little lift on the foil then suddenly kick it in the guts at a specific speed, hence the sudden increase in wake off the foil. 

Amazing the sudden geyser up the foil fairing..in two lift offs.some serious Shit happening a meter underwater right there

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I've been trying to work out how long it takes any boat to get onto the foils, but its not always easy to figure out when they start trying. In that video it looks to me like they sheet in at 1:54, and are clear of the water and able to head up at 2:12. So I think 18s. Not sure how that compares with other boats but it does show the benefits/disadvantages from pushing someone off the foils pre-start

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I think they were just utilising the light wind day. I feels like we are starting to get into sea breeze season 

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59 minutes ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

Not sure they'll sneak past the solo requirement. That said, I sometimes wonder if they're not a single entity.

Since they seem to be joined at the hip, they may get away with it. ;-)

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8 hours ago, barfy said:

Amazing the sudden geyser up the foil fairing..in two lift offs.some serious Shit happening a meter underwater right there

They probably put the flaps down.

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Does anyone know where I could watch replays of the 35th cup races with NON american commentry?

On youtube now are all the american commentators and I feel like I missed out on something listening to them

 

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