Salty Seacock

Emirates Team New Zealand.

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I wonder how fast and effective LR's twin-helm approach is in the heat of pre-start and tacking manoeuvres. How does it all work? Is there a tactician calling and co-ordinating the timing of hand-off between Spithill and Bruni? Or is there automated dis-engagement of one wheel as soon as the other helm grabs his wheel?

Could be more troublesome especially if neither of the helms is proficient in the other's first language.

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3 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Pretty ruff no in flight entertainment consoles for the Handbags.

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A74A1C50-E55B-41DE-8D6B-2445310B051E.jpeg.5aaa8928e75bf485c02d9419343c9706.jpeg

 

One obvious difference between the two boats is the chord thickness generated by the twin skin mainsails down low.

ITA B2 is about a helmet width, NZL B2 looks to be at least 4 helmet widths?

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24 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Just look at the differences in the volume between the twin sail on each boat.  LR looks like it is a token twin sail, while NZ is obviously trying to control the shape of each sail.

Here you can really tell where the control area stops as you go up the sail and you can see the cables/battens on the windward sail.

1524767577_ScreenShot2020-12-10at3_38_16PM.png.09d2561cb76a935b4ce0e8f7b96ee95f.png

Blow up of controls

 

1524767577_ScreenShot2020-12-10at3_38_16PM.png.09d2561cb76a935b4ce0e8f7b96ee95f crop.jpg

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The screen are great but what happens when they turn off or fuck up, the  alternative eyes on option looks a touch limited. 

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Just now, Wandering Geo said:

Blow up of controls

 

1524767577_ScreenShot2020-12-10at3_38_16PM.png.09d2561cb76a935b4ce0e8f7b96ee95f crop.jpg

Clever it undoubtedly is but to coin a very unflattering colloquialism, the clew of that “looks like a badly packed kebab” 

the price of speed and adjustability I guess 

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7 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

The screen are great but what happens when they turn off or fuck up, the  alternative eyes on option looks a touch limited. 

Three days in the shed I'm guessing.

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10 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

One obvious difference between the two boats is the chord thickness generated by the twin skin mainsails down low.

ITA B2 is about a helmet width, NZL B2 looks to be at least 4 helmet widths?

It is only so a few metres from the bottom of the sail.  The rest of the sail looks like LR's

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3 hours ago, winchfodder said:

ETNZ looks decidedly beamier than LR. Does this mean their foil arms are also wider giving more righting moment?

Isn't there something in the rule that fixes the position of the cantilever in the hull to a maximum?

I was talking about the foot of the main.

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14 minutes ago, trt131 said:

It is only so a few metres from the bottom of the sail.  The rest of the sail looks like LR's

Just guessing again, it looks as though the thickening starts at about the level of the mast sidehung camera mounts, so that is about the bottom 3 metres of sail.

So extra lift low down with minimal heeling moment. Magnified/streamlined by the endplate “channel”?

Nothing then?

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23 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Clever it undoubtedly is but to coin a very unflattering colloquialism, the clew of that “looks like a badly packed kebab” 

the price of speed and adjustability I guess 

The "badly-packed kebab" is in the shed getting prettied up for you.

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11 minutes ago, Indio said:

The "badly-packed kebab" is in the shed getting prettied up for you.

It's only a main halyard remember.

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Well it’s hardly a picture of elegant design is it? 
 

highly functional but not elegantly executed. 

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6 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Well it’s hardly a picture of elegant design is it? 
 

highly functional but not elegantly executed. 

True, but it works...

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2 hours ago, RMac said:

I don't think it's mast rotation.  That would likely go to the boat, this goes to the clew. I suppose you could try and use a tensioned lever to twist the joint between sail and mast to turn the mast, but that's an awfully difficult way to do it. I think this is for compressing the battens to induce shape into the main. 

Looking at the photo I think the arms might be controls for the battens as the lines lead back to the double clew. Rotation might be controlled below deck.

Screenshot_20201210-215059_Chrome.jpg

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It’s a big frikkin ram to help adjust camber, obviously. The geometry is muscular but the other teams are doing it with different (internal) solutions. 

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3 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

It’s a big frikkin ram to help adjust camber, obviously. The geometry is muscular but the other teams are doing it with different (internal) solutions. 

I suspect that this is all Ashby's fault. :P

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4 minutes ago, fish7yu said:

I suspect that this is all Ashby's fault. :P

Well yes! Agreed, and look at all other shit he has going on for main sheet control. 

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31 minutes ago, winchfodder said:

Looking at the photo I think the arms might be controls for the battens as the lines lead back to the double clew. Rotation might be controlled below deck.

Screenshot_20201210-215059_Chrome.jpg

Lots of cats have rotation controls that go to the boom. Means that the mast auto rotates when you let the sail out. In the case the rotation control appears to be going to the "boom substitute". Notice how floppy the other side is with the biggest camber.

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29 minutes ago, fish7yu said:

I suspect that this is all Ashby's fault. :P

I don't think punters fully appreciate the value of input from someone like Glen Ashby who owns his own sail loft into the design of ETNZ's sail inventory programme and various sail combo configurations - and then going out in TR and tuning and controlling them on the water.

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5 minutes ago, Indio said:

I don't think punters fully appreciate the value of input from someone like Glen Ashby who owns his own sail loft into the design of ETNZ's sail inventory programme and various sail combo configurations - and then going out in TR and tuning and controlling them on the water.

It was just a cheeky compliment to Ashby, I believe most AC followers understand the contribution and value he brings to the team. ;)

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7 minutes ago, fish7yu said:

It was just a cheeky compliment to Ashby, I believe most AC followers understand the contribution and value he brings to the team. ;)

It was just a general observation that most of the comments on Ashby quite rightly focus on his significant role on the boat, but not much acknowledgement of his more technical expertise in the sail loft for ETNZ.

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3 hours ago, Lat35sowth said:

Thats because they dont think outside football.

Most countries in the world dont think outside of football and I include my Country as well.

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4 hours ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

To me it looks as if the arm sticking out to the starboard side could be rigidly linked to a forward part of the batten.

If that forward part of the batten was stiff, the pull on that actuator could impose bending and force this part of the skin to assume a shape.

They could probably play a lot with how the batten cross-section changes along it's length, vary it's bending stiffness and achieve a specific shape.

image.png.7652000f8e6beb50d90c1475f3a6313e.png

But why do it outside the sail, there's room inside for a short ram. Reminds me of the early cat wing controls which later moved inside. Agricultural was the old word.

3 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

Just look at the differences in the volume between the twin sail on each boat.  LR looks like it is a token twin sail, while NZ is obviously trying to control the shape of each sail.

Here you can really tell where the control area stops as you go up the sail and you can see the cables/battens on the windward sail.

1524767577_ScreenShot2020-12-10at3_38_16PM.png.09d2561cb76a935b4ce0e8f7b96ee95f.png

That looks terrible.

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5 minutes ago, buckdouger said:

But why do it outside the sail, there's room inside for a short ram. Reminds me of the early cat wing controls which later moved inside. Agricultural was the old word.

That looks terrible.

Looks all very experimental but they obviously know what they want to so with the skins, and I imagine will be tidied up after Xmas. I cant see how pulling that windward ram will shape the sail much when the mainsheet(s)(s) are only a foot long. The most interesting thing is whether anyone else copies it. Or if this is ETNZ catching up to the challs, but seems unlikely given their visible speed so far. The screens and cameras look impressive.

Finally, Ashby looks like he plans to spend a lot of time peering over the deck (port above) , with one hand on a special handhold. How he can do anything one handed then is a puzzle. Is he looking upwind at the water between jib and main for puffs aka old school. Foot/pedal controls?

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There is a slight chance that some of that birds nest is there to fool or distract the other teams from noticing something else. I just can’t believe ETNZ are ready to show off anything important at this point. 

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4 hours ago, FinnFish said:

....but what happens when they turn off or fuck up?

Three days in the shed I'm guessing.

FIFY:

Hiltz! 

Cooler.

3 days......

(Uncredited flunky actor tosses hero a Baseball Glove and Ball)

Cue, evocative Whistling Tune.......

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16 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Shit. Low flying chopper alright, Mike. Looks only about 3-4 metres above sea level!

Screen Shot 2020-12-10 at 10.51.21 PM.png

 

 

Clearly that Helicopter has been taking cues from all this AC development cycle.

It's nose down, arse up, low to the water, seeking Ground Effect and a Wanna Be Ekranoplane with a Lotus '79 inspired black paint job.

"Utterly conclusive proof." an anonymous Black Billed Gull was quoted as saying before rushing off to swoop on an unsuspecting child with Hot Chips.

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9 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Pretty ruff no in flight entertainment consoles for the Handbags.

LR_top.thumb.jpg.efaecf3ab6e351ac6f3b7aff5563bbaa.jpg

They looked a bit cramped in their cockpits which are narrower than TR's. Not sure why they didn't exploit some of that wide gunnel space. Maybe they like that cosy arrangement - a bit like 3 on a vespa.....ciao.......

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Looks like the tensioning rams attach to the leech control ram not the battens. Still dont understand it. Theres a lot more purchases and rope in the clew control kebab than I realised.

main control.jpg

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Luna Rossa chief executive Max Sirena admits Team New Zealand have an edge on the rest of the America's Cup fleet, on the evidence of the practice racing so far this week.

"As I have said many times, the target, the benchmark are the Kiwis," Sirena told the Herald.

"[On Thursday] they showed their good speed, especially upwind. So we need to work to improve our performance upwind, even if [yesterday] we had a few issues and we were not able to sail on our target.

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/americas-cup-2021-luna-rossa-boss-max-sirena-lifts-lid-on-practice-races-against-team-new-zealand/MDZCLOXBEUZW7M4HVF54VYRR3Q/?utm_campaign=nzh_tw&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=nzh_tw#Echobox=1607662865

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19 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Shit. Low flying chopper alright, Mike. Looks only about 3-4 metres above sea level!

I see the cat camera boats look rock solid and quick too. Video coverage is going to be epic.

Screen Shot 2020-12-10 at 10.51.21 PM.png

 

Seems like the camera is a long way away, with a big lens. The chopper is not close to the boat. The camera is also looking down on the boat, since the shore is half way up the hull. So it is difficult to really know how close the chopper is. But it is a dramatic shot! And I am looking forward to the show as well!

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Yeah. There's a bit of that, Alchy. But even you must have some doubts, eh? Not that I'd expect you to admit it. ;-)

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https://www.martin-raget.com/folio/2616/pratice-racing.html
 

looks like someone is off the GD/Max Christmas card list

few secrets given up early again ;-) in full HD 

maybe the Ariel shots are why? as in a couple of hours a third party got more useful information that months of spy shots and put them online. 

link has died/been killed, if only someone had downloaded the file before it was removed 

2034BDD5-54BE-4943-84B2-B569BBF29D67.jpeg

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4 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Wow.  ETNZ must hate this forum.

Or just G M.Raget.. 

can’t imagine Max is thrilled with the pizza oven roulette wheel on show either 

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Quite a conservative flight path today then.

Wetapix

DSC_2916.thumb.JPG.d7b72ba536839e547c2ebe019f0a9cbc.JPG

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6 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Or just G M.Raget.. 

can’t imagine Max is thrilled with the pizza oven roulette wheel on show either 

You’re probably right.  He’s just got back in after a day on the water to find his images (without watermarks in some instances) bouncing around the internet.

 

In regard to the competitors, they must have know this day was coming, and it’s only a week until onboard footage goes live.

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7 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Quite a conservative flight path today then.

Yes, he was down so low at times, felt like we were in a Bond movie.

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4 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Nice short video of TH from stop to foiling. (Not sure if this has been posted before) 

 

That acceleration is quite something.

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These cavitation shockwaves are becoming a bit of an issue at warp drive speeds, by the look. ;-)

Somebody had better get NIWA to check the inner Gulf's accelerating sea temperature, real quick.

Wetapix

DSC_2865.thumb.JPG.7310e02042b847f2a9e7d7dd670085c9.JPG

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I'm confused as to why those GMR pics have been taken down... if he's not employed by any of the teams, what's stopping him from renting a chopper for a day and taking some cool photos? What say does ETNZ have in any of that?

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3 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

LR_top.thumb.jpg.efaecf3ab6e351ac6f3b7aff5563bbaa.jpg

They looked a bit cramped in their cockpits which are narrower than TR's. Not sure why they didn't exploit some of that wide gunnel space. Maybe they like that cosy arrangement - a bit like 3 on a vespa.....ciao.......

To my eye ETNZ look beamier than the Italians in all the photos above. Check out the distance between the cockpits on both boats. There is a massive difference. 

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6 minutes ago, crashtack said:

I'm confused as to why those GMR pics have been taken down... if he's not employed by any of the teams, what's stopping him from renting a chopper for a day and taking some cool photos? What say does ETNZ have in any of that?

Media photography rights have been sold with specific restrictions. GMR may have shit in his own bed this time - hope they cancel any accreditation he was granted.

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25 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Nice short video of TH from stop to foiling. (Not sure if this has been posted before) 

 

Actually, it was closer to two minutes, but we won't let the facts get in the way of a good story. Pretty damn impressive, all the same.

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18 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

These cavitation shockwaves are becoming a bit of an issue at warp drive speeds, by the look. ;-)

Somebody had better get NIWA to check the inner Gulf's accelerating sea temperature, real quick.

Wetapix

DSC_2865.thumb.JPG.7310e02042b847f2a9e7d7dd670085c9.JPG

Talking of things green..

BA58E333-C8E9-4E8C-A5FF-1B6EAD129A2A.thumb.jpeg.80533e51b999026f3e0a38849c251140.jpeg

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6 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Actually, it was closer to two minutes, but we won't let the facts get in the way of a good story. Pretty damn impressive, all the same.

Yeah I stopped counting after 1.15 seconds but they were his words..! LOL 

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7 minutes ago, Indio said:

Media photography rights have been sold with specific restrictions. GMR may have shit in his own bed this time - hope they cancel any accreditation he was granted.

I find it strange Indio. I'm sure GMR would know the rules? I'm struggling with the fact that he jumps into a chopper and takes photos from above when he would know or the Kiwis would that this is going to happen? I'm positive the Kiwis would have set the ground rules? If he has done this without the Kiwi's knowledge he is in a deep hole. But I find that hard to believe, from all reports GMR is not like that? What gives..?

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I think the narrow long rams are basically a turbocharger. Pulling the windward one tight will twist the mast without loading the Hull, increasing AOA, while inducing batten camber low down and increasing main depth. Reverse of a normal outhaul. Smells much like GAs doing in his mad quest for power at the touch of a button 

0A065086-B75C-4453-9819-0EFC2A3D9542.png.f479664e11e52d6acf955ae3c225fc13.png

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3 minutes ago, Indio said:

Media photography rights have been sold with specific restrictions. GMR may have shit in his own bed this time - hope they cancel any accreditation he was granted.

I understand that RG had his memory stick reviewed by ETNZ before he was able to take it home each day. 
 

On balance though I suspect GMR has got the pip and removed them, not that he’s been discredited. His other AC photos are still there. 

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7 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

 

5E44976A-F8A9-45C0-A9C5-72B7CF266E79.jpeg

I was thinking more along these lines.

"Ever gazed upon the green flash, Master Gibbs?"
"I reckon I seen my fair share. Happens on rare occasion. The last glimpse of sunset, a green flash shoots up into the sky. Some go their whole lives without ever seeing it. Some claim to have seen it who ain't. And some say—"
"It signals when a soul comes back to this world from the dead."

Go Luna Rossa.

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Interesting that those GM photos have been removed. When I did the print screen and crop I did take care to leave his name on the bottom. The ones I nabbed were nowhere near the size of the originals, supposed to be bought ones. Maybe GM removed them because I screen grabbed them? Maybe only his clients have access now?

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43 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

To my eye ETNZ look beamier than the Italians in all the photos above. Check out the distance between the cockpits on both boats. There is a massive difference. 

Isn't the beam at the foil arms supposed to be the same?

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44 minutes ago, Indio said:

Media photography rights have been sold with specific restrictions. GMR may have shit in his own bed this time - hope they cancel any accreditation he was granted.

How can you deny someone "photography rights" of boats on public water? This isn't a football match or someone's backyard...

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59 minutes ago, Indio said:

Media photography rights have been sold with specific restrictions. GMR may have shit in his own bed this time - hope they cancel any accreditation he was granted.

If the public is getting pinged $3 mil by TNZ for the AC75 class design costs don’t they have a right to see what they paid for.

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1 minute ago, Priscilla said:

If the public is getting pinged $3 mil by TNZ for the design costs don’t they have a right to see what they paid for.

Our Weta enjoys the "free public licence" - when he hires a chopper to do it from the air in a commercial enterprise, it's a totally different ball game.

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34 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

I was thinking more along these lines.

"Ever gazed upon the green flash, Master Gibbs?"
"I reckon I seen my fair share. Happens on rare occasion. The last glimpse of sunset, a green flash shoots up into the sky. Some go their whole lives without ever seeing it. Some claim to have seen it who ain't. And some say—"
"It signals when a soul comes back to this world from the dead."

Go Luna Rossa.

?

F019C202-34A7-4364-8BF5-FED2A436C7A5.jpeg

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5 minutes ago, Indio said:

Our Weta enjoys the "free public licence" - when he hires a chopper to do it from the air in a commercial enterprise, it's a totally different ball game.

Crikey let’s get Weta in a helicopter and then see how his accreditation expediently progresses.

Who by the way is issuing the accreditation’s ACE or TNZ not that there is any difference,

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1 hour ago, crashtack said:

I'm confused as to why those GMR pics have been taken down... if he's not employed by any of the teams, what's stopping him from renting a chopper for a day and taking some cool photos? What say does ETNZ have in any of that?

Flight no go over the race course for the racing.

https://www.aviation.govt.nz/airspace-and-aerodromes/airspace/36th-americas-cup/

 

 

946AA792-C57C-452B-AF3E-A5E282D74ABC.jpeg

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11 hours ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

To me it looks as if the arm sticking out to the starboard side could be rigidly linked to a forward part of the batten.

If that forward part of the batten was stiff, the pull on that actuator could impose bending and force this part of the skin to assume a shape.

They could probably play a lot with how the batten cross-section changes along it's length, vary it's bending stiffness and achieve a specific shape.

image.png.7652000f8e6beb50d90c1475f3a6313e.png

I think it's just mast rotation. But as the battens will be attached to the the mast, then I guess you could say it is affecting them too. 

Most battents are usually less stiff in the front, as that is where you want more shape. So I don't see how a solid section would particularly help there.

The difference between what we see on luna rossa and their boomless set up, and what we see on the kiwi boat is quite interesting, however. One of the advantages of the booms, is it gives you fixed point against which the mast can be rotated which moves with traveller trim. I.e. when you ease traveller to decrease angle of attack, the mast moves in unison. Just like the spanner on a Tasar. This is how AM and INEOS are controlling mast rotation, and how ETNZ were controlling it on B1. 

The italians have their mast rotation below deck. However, we don't know how it is linked to the traveller. It may be totally independent, linked electronically, or have a physical linkage below deck. 

In the photo above, you can see the the mast rotation lines / piston lead directly back to the clew. This means mast rotation is adjusted relative to the clew and therefore, as the sail is eased, the mast rotates with it, and all you adjust is the amount of mast rotation relative to the chord which changes the entry angle for a given angle of attack, and acts a a total camber control in the same way. 

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

Isn't the beam at the foil arms supposed to be the same?

Not exactly... foil arm pivot axis must be 4.1mm apart by the rules. Hull beam I think is spec as 4.8-5m.

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3 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Nice short video of TH from stop to foiling. (Not sure if this has been posted before) 

 

This was when they took off this morning. I was a bit further back down the wharf and have a much worse video of the same sequence. 

I was fascinated by the angles, there was fuck all breeze but you could see the speeds as the apparent wind changed. 

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3 hours ago, weta27 said:

Yes, he was down so low at times, felt like we were in a Bond movie.

Did you manage to get on the media boat?

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43 minutes ago, kenergy said:

This was when they took off this morning. I was a bit further back down the wharf and have a much worse video of the same sequence. 

I was fascinated by the angles, there was fuck all breeze but you could see the speeds as the apparent wind changed. 

At least mute the fuck all breeze on your camera.

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21 minutes ago, dullers said:

At least mute the fuck all breeze on your camera.

Time to mute you Muppet.

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5 hours ago, dullers said:

At least mute the fuck all breeze on your camera.

Considering that you haven't seen my footage its remarkable that you know what it sounds like. 

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15 hours ago, amc said:

There is a slight chance that some of that birds nest is there to fool or distract the other teams from noticing something else. I just can’t believe ETNZ are ready to show off anything important at this point. 

Dunno, the foot tension system was not on the boat earlier, so guessing they're still stuck testing gear out in full view.

I wouldn't be surprised if that system gets moved inside.  

Don't really care too much about the messy look off the traveler. Seems like much of that is just to tension the skins where they form the decksweeper. No reason you couldn't toss some 3di extensions over all that.  

Guessing their bottom battens are about as stiff as most boats rigs!  Very impressive stuff going to hopefully trickle out of all this

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