Emirates Team New Zealand.

[GeeJay 66]

1 minute ago, DayTripper said:

Oh. Of course you know the answer is 'How come I can paint the boat but you can't paint the fence?'

Of course he does.  However, the truth will cause him grievous bodily harm and the withdrawal of privileges for a lengthy period. 

[dullers 400]

5 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

rumor has it that the heads down looking at screens approach is great until you fail to spot the massive wind shift that cost you the race as it didn't show up on the  6" screen you were busy watching.

hey wtf would I know

Could thermal imaging show wind shifts?

[Apterix 91]

2 minutes ago, dullers said:

Could thermal imaging show wind shifts?

Probably not, but a camera on the top of the mast ought to give you a much better idea of where the wind is that an obscured view from the cockpit.  May not be allowed of course - not sure about that one.  

[weta27 4,563]

1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Apparently, I have to trim the hedge first.

Bathrooms, cleaning and vacuuming here, you've got it easy!

[dullers 400]

1 minute ago, Apterix said:

Probably not, but a camera on the top of the mast ought to give you a much better idea of where the wind is that an obscured view from the cockpit.  May not be allowed of course - not sure about that one.  

With the quality of cameras now that would be possible. I don't know the rules either on this. I mean with cameras else where on the boat i would be surprised if that was not mentioned somewhere.

[dullers 400]

2 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Bathrooms, cleaning and vacuuming here, you've got it easy!

Yes but you can do all those things on a boat. Very few boats have hedges. He has wrongly allocated time to unnecessary  shore activities.

[The_Alchemist 1,256]

1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Haha. Sadly no, Dullers. It's that fucking green/grey thing, runner down my entire boundary, which was never really designed to be clipped into perfect symmetry.

The worst of it isn't the actual clipping, or even the raking up of said clippings - it's the formal inspection by the works supervisor afterwards. "Does that bit over there look a little bit high?" Hmmmm.

Which reminds me, I'd better get on with it. ;-)

Just tell her you are going natural this year.  Along with some wild flowers in the lawn... that will go over real well.

[Priscilla 2,316]

This guy offered to help just until the racing starts though....

 

[Varan 1,925]

34 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

This guy offered to help just until the racing starts though....

 

Looks fast.

[MrBump 69]

If you wondered about ETNZ aerodynamics noted already that Blair Tuke has cut his mullet

[trt131 181]

2 hours ago, weta27 said:

Bathrooms, cleaning and vacuuming here, you've got it easy!

I cant believe you guys are so henpecked.  Its time for you to hand in your man cards.

[weta27 4,563]

All done. Glorious day and magnificent spectacle here on North Head.

[Sailbydate 2,566]

Just now, weta27 said:

All done. Glorious day and magnificent spectacle here on North Head.

Big crowd, Weta?

[The_Alchemist 1,256]

let's all discuss in one thread.  Christmas regatta

 

[weta27 4,563]

43 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Big crowd, Weta?

Yeah pretty big spectator fleet and plenty on the hill

[The_Alchemist 1,256]

It is just so nice to see people out enjoying themselves in public.  Covid free!!!!!!!

[Forourselves 1,154]

The best quote of the day in the first race, talking about the Kiwi boat "Goodness gracious its a missile" lol 

[Indio 891]

39 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The best quote of the day in the first race, talking about the Kiwi boat "Goodness gracious its a missile" lol 

And AM? "Fuck me, it's a hupersonic missile!!"

[Forourselves 1,154]

1 minute ago, Indio said:

And AM? "Fuck me, it's a hupersonic missile!!"

She's a quick boat. One more lap and it would've been over. Still, AM sailed pretty much a perfect race and the Kiwi's had a shocker and just lost.

So what have we learned. These boats are fucking impressive! All the talk of them being too unsafe, looking stupid, can't match race, it was all blown out of the water today.

AM is quick, but lets be honest, Dean has no problems winning the first races, its the last ones he has the problems with.

The other thing we've learned is all the talk of not wanting to give the Kiwi's race practice was all BS as well. That was probably one of the greatest races we've seen since the LV cup final in 2017. AM sailed probably close to a perfect race while the Kiwi's had a shocker and they only just lost.

Can AM continue to sail perfect races for months on end? Time will tell.

 

 

[Indio 891]

1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

....

Can AM continue to sail perfect races for months on end? Time will tell.

We've just enjoyed the preview of Race1 on 6th March.

[kenergy 562]

6 minutes ago, Indio said:

We've just enjoyed the preview of Race1 on 6th March.

And both boats and crews will be a whole lot  better by then too. 

[The_Alchemist 1,256]

5 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

She's a quick boat. One more lap and it would've been over. Still, AM sailed pretty much a perfect race and the Kiwi's had a shocker and just lost.

So what have we learned. These boats are fucking impressive! All the talk of them being too unsafe, looking stupid, can't match race, it was all blown out of the water today.

AM is quick, but lets be honest, Dean has no problems winning the first races, its the last ones he has the problems with.

The other thing we've learned is all the talk of not wanting to give the Kiwi's race practice was all BS as well. That was probably one of the greatest races we've seen since the LV cup final in 2017. AM sailed probably close to a perfect race while the Kiwi's had a shocker and they only just lost.

Can AM continue to sail perfect races for months on end? Time will tell.

 

 

AM did not sail a perfect race.  Dean tacked too late into the last top mark and let NZ squeeze inside of him.  AM needs to improve their tacks, pretty bad to allow the trailing boat to gain 400 meters on you in one leg.  AM either extended or kept its leads on the other two upwind legs. 

Nice to see them so close in speed even with all of the differences in design.  The AC will be won by the team that is the best at handling their beast of a boat.

[KiwiJoker 349]

2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

She's a quick boat. One more lap and it would've been over. Still, AM sailed pretty much a perfect race and the Kiwi's had a shocker and just lost.

So what have we learned. These boats are fucking impressive! All the talk of them being too unsafe, looking stupid, can't match race, it was all blown out of the water today.

AM is quick, but lets be honest, Dean has no problems winning the first races, its the last ones he has the problems with.

The other thing we've learned is all the talk of not wanting to give the Kiwi's race practice was all BS as well. That was probably one of the greatest races we've seen since the LV cup final in 2017. AM sailed probably close to a perfect race while the Kiwi's had a shocker and they only just lost.

Can AM continue to sail perfect races for months on end? Time will tell.

"The moving finger writes, and having writ moves on"

Kiwis showed amazing pace on the last windward leg to overtake at the ww mark on the inside.  Otherwise ........

Pete gave away the start and fell off the foils big-time on at least three occasions. Also some other oopses.

Superior performance from Deano but lots of spirit and potential from the Kiwis.

I'd say we have the makings of a memorable America's Cup match.

[Priscilla 2,316]

13 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

AM needs to improve their tacks, pretty bad to allow the trailing boat to gain 400 meters on you in one leg.  

Bloody tricky piece of water that course C is Amway2go reached for classical covering tacks and it was a joy to see TNZ looked a wee bit ponderous at times in comparison.

[Priscilla 2,316]

12 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

I'd say we have the makings of a memorable America's Cup match.

As long as the breeze is a few clicks above the agreed minimum anything under 10 knots renders racing between these new fangled flying machines just a splashdown lottery.

 

[Dutyfreenz 13]

They had some hydraulic issues heading into the second race

[Wandering Geo 58]

45 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

She's a quick boat. One more lap and it would've been over. Still, AM sailed pretty much a perfect race and the Kiwi's had a shocker and just lost.

So what have we learned. These boats are fucking impressive! All the talk of them being too unsafe, looking stupid, can't match race, it was all blown out of the water today.

AM is quick, but lets be honest, Dean has no problems winning the first races, its the last ones he has the problems with.

The other thing we've learned is all the talk of not wanting to give the Kiwi's race practice was all BS as well. That was probably one of the greatest races we've seen since the LV cup final in 2017. AM sailed probably close to a perfect race while the Kiwi's had a shocker and they only just lost.

Can AM continue to sail perfect races for months on end? Time will tell.

 

 

Hmm.....not really how I saw it.

One more lap and it would have been over? TR no juice, would have had to retire and been DNF.

AM perfect race? Not by a long shot. Very ragged trying close cover over TR. Overstood the top marks every time.

TR could have more of a battle on their hands than they were hoping for in a few months.

[mako23 436]

3 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

It is just so nice to see people out enjoying themselves in public.  Covid free!!!!!!!

Record number of deaths in the USA today. So very sad not in just  deaths but also destruction of peoples livelihood and hope. It’s easy to forget this in New Zealand we’re life is normal. 

[Lat35sowth 76]

12 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Record number of deaths in the USA today. So very sad not in just  deaths but also destruction of peoples livelihood and hope. It’s easy to forget this in New Zealand we’re life is normal. 

Blame Trump...

[barfy 1,113]

2 hours ago, Indio said:

We've just enjoyed the preview of Race1 on 6th March.

Clutch problems for etnz first half of race...clear on their coms.mmm

AM sailed a great race, but would have most likely been ground down I reckon

[Forourselves 1,154]

2 hours ago, Indio said:

We've just enjoyed the preview of Race1 on 6th March.

Nah it’ll be LR. I think AM would’ve given away valuable data today. They may have let the cat out of the bag in terms of their speed around the course and weakness in a tacking duel. LR looked like they didn’t even wanna be there, so just went through the motions against the Kiwi’s. Look for them to take it to AM tomorrow. I think we’ll see a fast and polished performance from LR to beat AM tomorrow. 
 

[kenergy 562]

8 minutes ago, barfy said:

Clutch problems for etnz first half of race...clear on their coms.mmm

AM sailed a great race, but would have most likely been ground down I reckon

What clutch? 

[barfy 1,113]

7 minutes ago, kenergy said:

What clutch? 

I was listening to the on board and they kept going on about a clutch. NO I believe mentioned the jib didn't look right? 

I have no idea what clutch ha ha

[kenergy 562]

5 minutes ago, barfy said:

I was listening to the on board and they kept going on about a clutch. NO I believe mentioned the jib didn't look right? 

I have no idea what clutch ha ha

I heard that too, I was hoping you were in the know

[terrafirma 1,062]

1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

Nah it’ll be LR. I think AM would’ve given away valuable data today. They may have let the cat out of the bag in terms of their speed around the course and weakness in a tacking duel. LR looked like they didn’t even wanna be there, so just went through the motions against the Kiwi’s. Look for them to take it to AM tomorrow. I think we’ll see a fast and polished performance from LR to beat AM tomorrow. 
 

Luna Rossa looked to be sailing well against the Kiwis but wow they got smacked. I'm more an AM fan than I am Luna Rossa. Letting the cat out of the bag and being able to do something about it are 2 different things. I'm sure Luna Rossa will get better but by how much remains to be seen. AM had more time on the water with their mule and their race boats by a fair way. If anything that's why they've beaten the Kiwis twice albeit I think the Kiwis are a fair bit faster as we don't see VMG's very often during the races. AM and Kiwis have their boat speeds up there but Prada have some work to do. The Kiwis sailing with way more depth in their main and there's something in their twin skin setup the others don't have IMO. So all the boats will get better and so will AM. I like Terry Hutch looking over the boats and the races looking in also. Still lots to learn as we saw Ineos least time on the water and that showed. 

[Indio 891]

26 minutes ago, barfy said:

Clutch problems for etnz first half of race...clear on their coms.mmm

AM sailed a great race, but would have most likely been ground down I reckon

Ashby was also heard advising against powering the traveller too much or they wouldn't be able to bring it back up..

[terrafirma 1,062]

11 minutes ago, barfy said:

I was listening to the on board and they kept going on about a clutch. NO I believe mentioned the jib didn't look right? 

I have no idea what clutch ha ha

Yes Pete said no clutch and it may have been related to the traveller? It could have been the jib? He also said low on juice at some stage. Upwind the Kiwis are scary when they're good they hit 40 Knots upwind and I'm sure their VMG is better. The Kiwis had the bigger jib today especially in comparison to AM. 

[barfy 1,113]

11 minutes ago, kenergy said:

I heard that too, I was hoping you were in the know

No

Edit: no know

[weta27 4,563]

[Dutyfreenz 13]

hydraulic problems.......already said that

[Indio 891]

37 minutes ago, kenergy said:

What clutch? 

They use electrically-activated/de-activated clutches to connect the grinding pedestals to the different pumps delivering oil to the different actuators.

[kenergy 562]

16 minutes ago, barfy said:

No

Edit: no know

Know nout.

[kenergy 562]

1 minute ago, Indio said:

They use electrically-activated/de-activated clutches to connect the grinding pedestals to the different pumps delivering oil to the different actuators.

Ah, thanks.

[FinnFish 206]

2 hours ago, mako23 said:

Record number of deaths in the USA today. So very sad not in just  deaths but also destruction of peoples livelihood and hope. It’s easy to forget this in New Zealand we’re life is normal. 

Take it to COVID Anarchy.

[rastro 777]

AM looked good hey.

It would be something if Deano came into his own here, like Cinderella.

[Sailbydate 2,566]

4 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

Still, AM sailed pretty much a perfect race and the Kiwi's had a shocker and just lost.

Hardly perfect. They missed the lay line on that top mark by a country bloody mile. Just as well ETNZ blew off that penalty for them. Had, Pete held his nerve, they'd have had to throw out the pick and settle for second.

But all credit to AM. They nailed that start and had more speed.

Interestingly, ETNZ sailed about 700 - 800 metres less distance, but were not as quick.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Sailbydate
Race Stats.

[Sailbydate 2,566]

28 minutes ago, astro said:

AM looked good hey.

It would be something if Deano came into his own here, like Cinderella.

He did good today. But, do you think he can withstand the pressure?

[Ulairi 6]

33 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Interestingly, ETNZ sailed about 700 - 800 metres less distance, but were not as quick.

If you wanted to sandbag your second race, after a very dominant display in your first (first was 100% dry, IIRC),  would you:

(a) sail a bit higher than optimum and bleed off a bit of VMG, or

(b) maneuver a little unnecessarily - with a few resulting touch downs, or 

(c) all of the above?

Just hypothetically ..... 

[Sailbydate 2,566]

3 minutes ago, Ulairi said:

If you wanted to sandbag your second race, after a very dominant display in your first (first was 100% dry, IIRC),  would you:

(a) sail a bit higher than optimum and bleed off a bit of VMG, or

(b) maneuver a little unnecessarily - with a few resulting touch downs, or 

(c) all of the above?

Just hypothetically ..... 

Using all of those tactics would add up to a successful sand bagging exercise. But I don't think ETNZ were sand bagging. I think the race was lost, when they blew off AM's penalty. Talk about an own goal. Still. There's more racing to come. We'll see.

I'm pretty sure AM weren't sandbagging either. ;-)

 

[dullers 400]

The lines are open for extra abuse from Four skin and his minions  after my INEOS had a better day than expected.

[JonRowe 722]

Good close racing between AM and ETNZ, thats what we want to see!

I thought the after race speed graphs where interesting, really showing how close they were on speed, the fact that ETNZ caught up with such massive deficits from time off the foils is impressive.

[The_Alchemist 1,256]

2 hours ago, JonRowe said:

Good close racing between AM and ETNZ, thats what we want to see!

I thought the after race speed graphs where interesting, really showing how close they were on speed, the fact that ETNZ caught up with such massive deficits from time off the foils is impressive.

Very interesting.  Look who turned on the afterburners on the end of the final leg.  AM exceeds 45 knots, faster than any boat did in the entire race.

[Vin 153]

That final leg looked like the last few hundred meters of a full on sprint for the line after a relatively well doled out effort during a bike race (don’t take the dogs off of the chains until you hit that last 1k)...play hard but don’t break anything, then put the throttle down to finish strong. Very cool to see. Of course no one is showing all of their cards, but if they are not trying hard they are not going to learn squat about winning in these boats when it counts. Bahhh...no sandbagging in the classic sense (or Dennis in 88 vs KZ1). They need this. They need the data. 
 

 

[Forourselves 1,154]

[Varan 1,925]

8 hours ago, barfy said:

I was listening to the on board and they kept going on about a clutch. NO I believe mentioned the jib didn't look right? 

I have no idea what clutch ha ha

That wasn't clutch they said, it was hutch. They had a hutch problem 

[jaysper 596]

12 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

I'm pretty sure INEO were doing NOTS rather than KNOTS.

Goddamn Ben makes himself look really bad blaming all in sundry for his failures.

When you are the helmsman, you get blamed for bad driving. But he is "the man", so its on him.

I have little doubt the FCS is shit, but the other teams seem to be coping with that shit a lot better.

[Forourselves 1,154]

Agreed. If its a shit system, its shit for everyone. Everyone is in the same boat (excuse the pun), so either Ineos has modified the system and their mods aren't working, or their engineers just aren't coping as well as the other teams engineers.

Either way, it comes down to their own team - again.

[enigmatically2 758]

2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Agreed. If its a shit system, its shit for everyone. Everyone is in the same boat (excuse the pun), so either Ineos has modified the system and their mods aren't working, or their engineers just aren't coping as well as the other teams engineers.

Either way, it comes down to their own team - again.

Oddly enough in most of the world, if one car of a model goes wrong, it doesn't mean that all the others do. There is even the concept of a "Friday Car" which has lots of problems. Is it different in NZ so that if one breaks they all do?

[Ripclaw 27]

4 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Agreed. If its a shit system, its shit for everyone. Everyone is in the same boat (excuse the pun), so either Ineos has modified the system and their mods aren't working, or their engineers just aren't coping as well as the other teams engineers.

Either way, it comes down to their own team - again.

The highlighted bit by me above raises an important question; are any of the teams allowed to change any of the one-design parts?

[Forourselves 1,154]

1 minute ago, enigmatically2 said:

Oddly enough in most of the world, if one car of a model goes wrong, it doesn't mean that all the others do. There is even the concept of a "Friday Car" which has lots of problems. Is it different in NZ so that if one breaks they all do?

No, but if there is a faulty part in one of the models, the rest are recalled. 

[Forourselves 1,154]

1 minute ago, Ripclaw said:

The highlighted bit by me above raises an important question; are any of the teams allowed to change any of the one-design parts?

No. It s a supplied part so its identical.

[enigmatically2 758]

2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

No, but if there is a faulty part in one of the models, the rest are recalled. 

Only for safety issues. Not for reliability.

Or should the FCS have been recalled?

[Forourselves 1,154]

4 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Only for safety issues. Not for reliability.

Or should the FCS have been recalled?

Are we sure it needs to be? Easy to pin an excuse on something that you didn't build. I'm sure ETNZ would be willing to send over a few engineers to INEOS to check correct installation? Something tells Me Ainslie wouldn't be so keen on that idea.

[Miffy 2,140]

8 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Only for safety issues. Not for reliability.

Or should the FCS have been recalled?

What? Where do you hail from? Because I've totally had warranty recall notices for reliability items that the manufacturer decided better to fix as a customer service/brand loyalty/reliability thing.

[enigmatically2 758]

2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Are we sure it needs to be? Easy to pin an excuse on something that you didn't build. I'm sure ETNZ would be willing to send over a few engineers to INEOS to check correct installation? Something tells Me Ainslie wouldn't be so keen on that idea.

Surely ETNZ should arrange for the 3rd party supplier to go to fix the Ineos boat, because we are told ETNZ didn't build it, but they did contract it. Which is essentially what Ben is asking for

 

And Miffy, if that is the case, why hasn't ETNZ done such a recall?

[Miffy 2,140]

6 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Surely ETNZ should arrange for the 3rd party supplier to go to fix the Ineos boat, because we are told ETNZ didn't build it, but they did contract it. Which is essentially what Ben is asking for

 

And Miffy, if that is the case, why hasn't ETNZ done such a recall?

Shrug because it isn't a consumer product and I take Ben Ainsley's complaints with a grain of salt. The other teams demurred when given the opportunity to join his complaint. And if there's anything consistent re AC campaigns - is shit stirrers always shit stir & Ben Ainsley has trouble with team building/integration work.

[enigmatically2 758]

Just now, Miffy said:

Shrug because it isn't a consumer product and I take Ben Ainsley's complaints with a grain of salt. The other teams demurred when given the opportunity to join his complaint. And if there's anything consistent re AC campaigns - is shit stirrers always shit stir & Ben Ainsley has trouble with team building/integration work.

But that's my point, other teams may not have had a problem. May be hardware, may be software, but without the software INEOS can't tell, and there is no evidence that the FCS engineers have visited, tested and confirmed there is no problem either.

[Miffy 2,140]

Who knows at this point - if the issue is the software side & it isn't the component associated with the OD elements and teams are supposed to write their own code for control systems and tinker with inputs based on data from the sensors - why would anyone else make the software for them. I just don't know if anyone in public domain has that information. 

[wardy89 3]

9 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Surely ETNZ should arrange for the 3rd party supplier to go to fix the Ineos boat, because we are told ETNZ didn't build it, but they did contract it. Which is essentially what Ben is asking for

 

And Miffy, if that is the case, why hasn't ETNZ done such a recall?

Another solution could be for all the teams to have and embedded engineer from the company that builds them to help with integration and fixes and maintenance schedule ect., just like F1 engine suppliers do with customer teams.

[jaysper 596]

33 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Oddly enough in most of the world, if one car of a model goes wrong, it doesn't mean that all the others do. There is even the concept of a "Friday Car" which has lots of problems. Is it different in NZ so that if one breaks they all do?

Look I am NOT going to espouse the merits of these boats cos I think they are shit.

However, comparing a "Friday Car" to the FCS is a completely false equivalency.

People who own Friday cars don't have the resources to inspect and potentially rectify any problems on a daily basis.

If INEOS receieved "Friday Foils", they could (and should) have done whatever is necessary to rectify the problem and bring the FCS into spec.

If INEO are being shot in the foot with a poor quality FCS when other teams are not, then it can only be INEOS are pointing the gun.

[Miffy 2,140]

3 minutes ago, wardy89 said:

Another solution could be for all the teams to have and embedded engineer from the company that builds them to help with integration and fixes and maintenance schedule ect., just like F1 engine suppliers do with customer teams.

And that doesn't solve underlying integration/systems work at the team. 

For example, you could have a Mercedes engine and end up like Williams or have a Renault or Honda engine and perform like Red Bull. I just don't think anyone has enough information to determine where the breakdown is. 

[enigmatically2 758]

1 minute ago, Miffy said:

. I just don't think anyone has enough information to determine where the breakdown is. 

No, I agree. But as INEOS are saying its the one design bit then ETNZ should be moving heaven and hell to get that sorted OR prove that it is not. I don't see any evidence of that effort

[Miffy 2,140]

lol suppose there's hydraulic actuators and cylinders and pumps and the reliability is improved by minimizing pressure spikes and also pulsating fluids - and all the mechanical engineers and software guys on the other teams have figured that out and made the software run that way & there's one dumb team with poor systems integration work who can't figure it out - whose problem is that? I just don't get it - Inoes is funded by a Brexit billionaire, figure it out like everyone else because it seems like one party is whining. I just don't think there's enough information yet.

[nav 576]

It's pretty simple. Some have been after the software for a while, today gave Ben a worldwide audience to ask for it in front of - but he needs to make the case that there are no other domestic mechanical issues before the software can possibly be to blame or provide any relief.

Don't forget the other issues aboard Fraka2 today and get sucked into a one issue mind-set.

But given all that it sounds to me like it would make sense to put a small expert group together to consider options for FCS reliability improvements - before it ends in tears 

[rh3000 1,596]

2 minutes ago, Miffy said:

lol suppose there's hydraulic actuators and cylinders and pumps and the reliability is improved by minimizing pressure spikes and also pulsating fluids - and all the mechanical engineers and software guys on the other teams have figured that out and made the software run that way & there's one dumb team with poor systems integration work who can't figure it out - whose problem is that? I just don't get it - Inoes is funded by a Brexit billionaire, figure it out like everyone else because it seems like one party is whining. I just don't think there's enough information yet.

Ineos struggling to pump oil? The irony...

[wardy89 3]

2 minutes ago, Miffy said:

And that doesn't solve underlying integration/systems work at the team. 

For example, you could have a Mercedes engine and end up like Williams or have a Renault or Honda engine and perform like Red Bull. I just don't think anyone has enough information to determine where the breakdown is. 

No but what it does is enable the team to effectively debug their system and identify if the issue are on their side or the FCS supplied parts side. 

Yes you could preform like Williams with the Mercedes engine, but the role of the integrated Power unit engineer is not to help the team with aerodynamics and performance but is instead there to insure the power unit is installed and running correctly. That is what i am suggesting having a embedded engineer for all the teams to insure that their FCS systems are installed correctly to spec and functioning properly. 

and you are correct that we dont really have enough information!

[enigmatically2 758]

1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

Oh hell, we aren't going to restart the argument about a boat being faster but losing again are we? Only in reverse this time

[Miffy 2,140]

1 minute ago, wardy89 said:

Yes you could preform like Williams with the Mercedes engine, but the role of the integrated Power unit engineer is not to help the team with aerodynamics and performance but is instead there to insure the power unit is installed and running correctly.

They're actually there to ensure it is to spec - if the team wants to run the PU at high levels to compensate for aerodynamic problems, or ignore cooling issues at their own peril - it is the team's decision. It is too complicated to be able to diagnose remotely without more information. 

[Forourselves 1,154]

5 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Oh hell, we aren't going to restart the argument about a boat being faster but losing again are we? Only in reverse this time

No. Just posting something that was on the AC FB page

[ncs 38]

37 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

But that's my point, other teams may not have had a problem. May be hardware, may be software, but without the software INEOS can't tell, and there is no evidence that the FCS engineers have visited, tested and confirmed there is no problem either.

For the AC35 FCS ETNZ used Beckhoff sensors and controllers onboard: EtherCAT-linked modules controlled by special version of embedded Windows developed by Beckhoff. They also had a CANBus system for valve actuation and human interface input. Now I have no inside knowledge of the AC36 system but it seems probable they're using the same kit again because their FCS band is back together: Ryan, Vito, Stefano, Carsten etc. 

My guess is ETNZ sends an FCS binary firmware update to the teams which they download to their Beckhoff IPC. Seems unlikely the original source code is distributed or even openly reviewed by the other teams. Across my four campaigns source code review, even for mission critical code, was not SOP or even asked for. 

But with these systems post-mortem fault diagnosis is problematic due to insufficient logging: hard to know the exact state of everything with millisecond precision because their logging system is not designed capturing the state of hundreds of channels at 1KHz and not all critical signals are even recorded. For example, if a FCS valve is stuck open or closed was it caused by a logic fault in the software, EMI in a sensor signal, a bit of unflushed metal caught in the valve, a valve controller MOSFET temporarily in thermal shutdown mode, human input device error, human mistake, etc? Often hard to tell which. Or none of the above. 

[Schakel 125]

Probably said before but then you have to read 5 pages.
Two races with 1500 meters appart allmost immediately ruled out two teams for a chance to win.
Between ETNZ and American Magic, in these conditions : this was the finish and ETNZ fell from his foils more often.
To be continued....

[Stingray~ 1,405]

1 hour ago, ncs said:

For the AC35 FCS ETNZ used Beckhoff sensors and controllers onboard: EtherCAT-linked modules controlled by special version of embedded Windows developed by Beckhoff. They also had a CANBus system for valve actuation and human interface input. Now I have no inside knowledge of the AC36 system but it seems probable they're using the same kit again because their FCS band is back together: Ryan, Vito, Stefano, Carsten etc. 

My guess is ETNZ sends an FCS binary firmware update to the teams which they download to their Beckhoff IPC. Seems unlikely the original source code is distributed or even openly reviewed by the other teams. Across my four campaigns source code review, even for mission critical code, was not SOP or even asked for. 

But with these systems post-mortem fault diagnosis is problematic due to insufficient logging: hard to know the exact state of everything with millisecond precision because their logging system is not designed capturing the state of hundreds of channels at 1KHz and not all critical signals are even recorded. For example, if a FCS valve is stuck open or closed was it caused by a logic fault in the software, EMI in a sensor signal, a bit of unflushed metal caught in the valve, a valve controller MOSFET temporarily in thermal shutdown mode, human input device error, human mistake, etc? Often hard to tell which. Or none of the above. 

Thanks, great post. 

[JALhazmat 1,168]

1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

No. It s a supplied part so its identical.

Ask any olympic sailer how identical one design gear is and come back to us.. 

[atwinda 94]

6 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Ask any olympic sailer how identical one design gear is and come back to us.. 

Are you suggesting that ETNZ's FCS suppliers took an inventory of the components they were sending out to the teams, and sent INEOS crap gear TWICE? 

[Windskip 16]

1 hour ago, enigmatically2 said:

Oh hell, we aren't going to restart the argument about a boat being faster but losing again are we? Only in reverse this time

Especially if those speeds weren't even in the same race. Anyone have a link to that data, please?

[Stingray~ 1,405]

2 minutes ago, Windskip said:

Anyone have a link to that data, please?

This! 
 

SBD posted a couple of nice screenshots, but in the last two AC’s a set of race data was made freely available after each day. They also streamed it live, ARL even provided an app to be able to receive that stream, was very cool. 

[Monkey 1,325]

42 minutes ago, atwinda said:

Are you suggesting that ETNZ's FCS suppliers took an inventory of the components they were sending out to the teams, and sent INEOS crap gear TWICE? 

Even though they overheated tow control units, that doesn’t mean those were the problem. The issue is most likely elsewhere in the system and they probably didn’t have time to change that out. 

[JALhazmat 1,168]

12 minutes ago, atwinda said:

Are you suggesting that ETNZ's FCS suppliers took an inventory of the components they were sending out to the teams, and sent INEOS crap gear TWICE? 

No, there are tolerances with any one design part, the idea that everything is precisely identical is a farce.

What does happen and chews up huge budget for Olympic sailers is going through boat after boat and mast after mast, foil etc to find the best one. 
 

All I am suggesting is that one design is not the last word in repeatable perfection