Salty Seacock

Emirates Team New Zealand.

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isnt 10% normally the golden standard for copyright and patent law

 

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29 minutes ago, Boink said:

Being so much smaller and less inertia as a total package, will yield a very different behaving beast as Ineos would testify to.

Total weight and moment of inertia can be designed to be similar.

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TeKahu_foil01.jpg.c20f481a4d77f9367a2b04fe6ce3ad12.jpg

Might be optical distortion from the wide angle lens, or there could be a gentle curve as shown by the yellow line. These look to be long narrow foils, as well as being very thin, so it might be a bit of sag from the weight? This flex would probably change when under load in the water. They look quite different to Te Aihe's foils.

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For what it's worth. I much prefer this hull to the other one, a wide V allows a more stable hull when hitting the water, flying lower for more RM, and a softer water hits than a flat hull. This a much more classic hull.

Kiwi fans hated me for my comments on the last hull as we can't touch the sacred cow (dolphin), let's see how they like these ones.

 

TeKahu_foil01.jpg.c20f481a4d77f9367a2b04fe6ce3ad12.jpg

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2 hours ago, uflux said:

491EFDC9-6C02-4502-A04B-8FA2AEECC350.jpeg

The mast section looks very thick for that sized boat - almost stump like. Probably close to or the same thickness as the 75. Another interesting feature.

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6 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

For what it's worth. I much prefer this hull to the other one, a wide V allows a more stable hull when hitting the water, flying lower for more RM, and a softer water hits than a flat hull.

I don't think this boat is about the hull shape, that's been deliberately designed quite generic. This boat is a platform to test everything other than the hull.

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6 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

I don't think this boat is about the hull shape, that's been deliberately designed quite generic. This boat is a platform to test everything other than the hull.

You may be right. However I guess they want to test a maximum of hypothesis, boat hull, sail, mast, foil.

On the other end their port foil seems pretty close from the other one, perhaps they want to try the same with different controls ?

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55 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

That is not the AC9F youth class...

Not youth present... just hobbits...

Just the future I think. 

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12 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

This boat is a platform to test everything other than the hull.

Exactly.

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Just now, Horn Rock said:

The mast section looks very thick for that sized boat - almost stump like. Probably close to or the same thickness as the 75. Another interesting feature.

Using the same section, but lighter (and  shorter) would make sense. Same for control systems, to make them interchangeable for when to be used as spares. GD is a bean counter, after all.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Using the same section, but lighter (and  shorter) would make sense. Same for control systems, to make them interchangeable, as to be used as spares. GD is a bean counter, after all.

Exactly what I was thinking, as well as aiding development. Translating the data for the simulator should be much more simple than if they had scaled everything down as the other teams have.

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20 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

On the other end their port foil seems pretty close from the other one

Port foil looks to be a shallow angle anhedral with a slight sweep back. Again different to the deeper anhedral seen on Te Aihe.

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The first example of a “second design” and it looks like NZ has made dramatic changes to their hull!.  It looks more like they have shifted away from the bulbous hull and moved more towards LR.  Go ahead and try to claim they made a generic hull, but it is obvious that NZ made some very distinctive design decisions that are not generic.  

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9 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Go ahead and try to claim they made a generic hull, but it is obvious that NZ made some very distinctive design decisions that are not generic.  

As if they're going to show what their B2 hull shape will look like this far out from the match. If you can't see that this is a generic hull shape - then that's your problem. You're not going to win if you read things this poorly.

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2 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

The foils and foil arms do look to be close to, if not full sized. If they are full sized I wonder if she carries ballast to bring her up to the weight of an AC75? Have the Kiwis sneakily stolen a march on the others in being able to test as many full sized foil designs as they like on this boat, which don't count towards the restrictions placed on the AC75?

Hardly "stolen a march" when others have been able to do that since they launched their test boats months ago.

The restrictions in rule 5.1 only apply once components are fitted to an AC75, so until then, teams can test as many versions as they like of most components however they want, as long as they don't use a surrogate, wind tunnel or tank testing.

The FCS is really the only questionable bit since ENTZ might have inside knowledge on how the black box control system works. Others have been denied the ability to copy the software or have access to the source code (and maybe ENTZ hasn't been given access either, which would be far).

As far as I can tell scaling from an image, the Te Kahu foils look full size (about 4m tip to tip).

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Relax guys, it’s just an ad for Toyota.

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9 minutes ago, Teaky said:

Relax guys, it’s just an ad for Toyota.

Bugger!

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BTW, I really hope the spies saw Te Aihe being packed up and went home. 

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Very interesting if they've pulled the 'full scale foil/rig on officially smaller boat' thing while others have built sub-scale :huh:

Especially since they did it last time too.

If this was their plan all along it was very clever.

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12 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

More pics. 

From those pics, both foils look anhedral, but only the port set looks to have a backwards sweep.

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1 hour ago, RobG said:

Hardly "stolen a march" when others have been able to do that since they launched their test boats months ago.

The restrictions in rule 5.1 only apply once components are fitted to an AC75, so until then, teams can test as many versions as they like of most components however they want, as long as they don't use a surrogate, wind tunnel or tank testing.

The FCS is really the only questionable bit since ENTZ might have inside knowledge on how the black box control system works. Others have been denied the ability to copy the software or have access to the source code (and maybe ENTZ hasn't been given access either, which would be far).

As far as I can tell scaling from an image, the Te Kahu foils look full size (about 4m tip to tip).

""There is no doubt looking back that the Challengers all learned some valuable lessons and got a bit of a jump on us with their developments. But it was a conscious decision of ours to suck that up and play the long game knowing that points don't start to count until the first race of the America's Cup, which obviously is in March 2021. ”continued Dalton."

This may or not be an accurate representation of the situation of course, the AC being the AC.

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1 hour ago, RobG said:

so until then, teams can test as many versions as they like of most components however they want, as long as they don't use a surrogate, wind tunnel or tank testing.

None of the other teams are running full sized foils on their surrogates, the advantage of which is pretty obvious. So I stand by my statement that ETNZ have stolen a march on their rivals. Their surrogate shits on the other teams. Score one to the Kiwis.

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Bugger!

And the cleverness of that reply flew right over the heads of our foreign mates. 

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Looking forward to seeing her fully rigged now. Will they use a deck sweeper main? How about the hydraulic leach control?

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11 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Did Dalts get a nice new launch thrown in as a bonus? ;)

 

Not big enough on his bonus 

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7 hours ago, RobG said:

Whatever it is, it can't be a "surrogate" as defined in the protocol since:

11.1 c) No Competitor shall acquire, sail or test any Surrogate Yacht as defined in this Protocol and the AC75 Class Rule

Where Surrogate Yacht is defined as:

…any monohull yacht exceeding 12m LOA which is capable of producing meaningful design or performance information for use either directly or indirectly in the design, construction or sailing of an AC75 yacht…

 

It’s a hopeless battle. I gave up long ago

 

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4 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Translating the data for the simulator should be much more simple than if they had scaled everything down as the other teams have.

 

edit sorry just re-read your post.. I'm agreeing with you.

Different items scale in different ways because they're operating in different densities etc.  Made even more complicated when you have to factor in cavitation.  You can't expect nature to scale the vapor pressure of water for you.  Far easier and more accurate to keep it as close as possible and eliminate scaling where possible. 

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5 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

Far easier and more accurate to keep it as close as possible and eliminate scaling where possible. 

Which is what I've said. Having full sized foils will give better data for the simulator than scaled ones which will need translating.

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1 minute ago, Horn Rock said:

Which is what I've said. Having full sized foils will give better data for the simulator than scaled ones which will need translating.

yep already corrected myself above

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5 hours ago, RobG said:

Each team is only allowed 2 FCSs, so if it's a "stock" AC75 FCS either they're using their second one or breaking the rule.

Perhaps they've built a nearly identical system, which would test the measurement committee with regard to the component limits rule.

Doubt a scaled down version for a 'non-surrogate' would be an issue.

Don't think it can be full size in that hull, but if so they could just rip one out of B1 or Te Kaahu when they need it for B2.

 

 

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Looking for sponsors?

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3 minutes ago, ITA602 said:

Looking for sponsors?

The Dolphin will be doing all the flashy promo work in exotic locations like Cagliari and Plymouth.

This will be doing the behind the scenes hard work haha

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This legend will be smiling.

6FB0E5CD-39B1-484C-BFA1-A57C66DF55D7.jpeg.041ed40c070a63510b6588516d7d5e74.jpeg

0963C4F2-96F3-4248-84F3-3443F5B88CFD.thumb.jpeg.8a40dfb84263f17edd26df83422763f4.jpeg

Te Kahu reminds me of my old Javelin skiff kind of.

Local Javelin Sanders and Kingham Cups.

0B7DD184-3A10-4F05-B36C-1E36AE9856CC.jpeg.05c8ff23175974fefc44f62d1746c6aa.jpeg6D21073E-0141-4BB2-B84E-95C18C93CF7E.thumb.jpeg.69e5ed237d84c8e38ad7f50e3cbc25a5.jpeg

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

TeKahu_foil01.jpg.c20f481a4d77f9367a2b04fe6ce3ad12.jpg

Might be optical distortion from the wide angle lens, or there could be a gentle curve as shown by the yellow line. These look to be long narrow foils, as well as being very thin, so it might be a bit of sag from the weight? This flex would probably change when under load in the water. They look quite different to Te Aihe's foils.

I think there is a curve on the foils.  Below is the pic with a lot of the lens distortion removed

 

 

TeKahu 3-edit.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Boatshed said:

I think there is a curve on the foils.  Below is the pic with a lot of the lens distortion removed

I think it's the anhedral bend now that I've seen the instagram pics from Ex Yachti.

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6 hours ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

Great stuff great for Friday run racing

Yes, and I'd love to watch the minis race each other. 

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Oh What a feeling..! New Zealand...I was a massive Hilux fan but jumped ship. The ride is like rocks and the DPF issue is now a class action lawsuit. Thankfully I know ETNZ are a lot smarter than Toyota but the later has the money so why not. Loving the Surrogate Trainer looks lean and mean.

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The LOH for the AC75 is 20.70 m, which allows a test boat to have a hull length minus the bowsprit to be just over 70cm shorter than the AC75.  And, if you took that >70cm off the bow you could have a foil-rudder-rig configuration that mimicked a full scale AC75 pretty closely.   That'd be a pretty awesome test platform and if you had a sufficiency skilled team you could potentially run a two boat testing programme if allowed under the rules.   

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Sail World: Emirates Team New Zealand revealed their new custom designed and built test boat Te Kahu today in Auckland.

To outside spectators it likely seems that Emirates Team New Zealand are a bit late to the party with the launch of their test boat, considering the Challengers test boats started hitting the water all the way back in September 2018, to which Dalton explains:

“It might seem like the launch of our test boat is a bit overdue, but early in any campaign decisions have to be made that ultimately will only be judged at the end.

https://www.sail-world.com/news/225883/Americas-Cup-Emirates-Team-NZ-launch-The-Hawk

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Recognizing the obvious.

“There is no doubt looking back that the Challengers all learnt some valuable lessons and got a bit of a jump on us with their developments. But it was a conscious decision of ours to suck that up and play the long game knowing that points don’t start to count until the first race of the America’s Cup, which obviously is in March 2021.” continued Dalton.

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5 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Recognizing the obvious.

“There is no doubt looking back that the Challengers all learnt some valuable lessons and got a bit of a jump on us with their developments. But it was a conscious decision of ours to suck that up and play the long game knowing that points don’t start to count until the first race of the America’s Cup, which obviously is in March 2021.” continued Dalton.

Ha, ha. You didn't disappoint, TC.

The real message is a little more subtle .

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1 minute ago, Sailbydate said:

The real message is a little more subtle

Yeah Dalts knows how to play the game - talking up your rivals is always a good ploy.

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If the test boat is max 12m LOA, then I estimate these foil wings are not longer than about 3.5m, though we don't have ideal pictures to compare. With a reasonable side view you can compare LOA to foil arm projected length, and with a reasonable front view, you can then compare the foil arm projected length to the foil wing span.

Does anyone have an estimate for the foil wing span on the AC75? Max permissible is 4m I believe.

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42 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Ha, ha. You didn't disappoint, TC.

The real message is a little more subtle .

^^ I was expecting that answer

When Dalts tells something pleasing: "Are you saying Dalts is a liar ? "

When Dalts tells that other teams may be better " It's because he wants to mislead competition, he is so smart and experienced".

When the kiwi boat crashes: "It's a test, you don't know shit"

When the boat breaks: "It's nothing, we have more time than others"

Nothing changes :)

 

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14 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

As if they're going to show what their B2 hull shape will look like this far out from the match. If you can't see that this is a generic hull shape - then that's your problem. You're not going to win if you read things this poorly.

From this view, it looks a lot more like AM than the NZ boat.

Image may contain: sky, cloud and outdoor

 

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Good go for it. Is there any one of the multiple foils seen that interested you in particular or do you require precise measurements for them all? :D

I think you'll find Te Kaahu's are not full sized - but that just my WAG, without yellow lines

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Could this development explain why the seemingly needless bowsprit was a mandatory requirement in the class rule? - ie. basically to create a backdoor to skirt around the surrogate size restrictions?

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What back door? A 20m* AC75 vs a 12m non-surrogate. What am I missing?

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11 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Looking forward to seeing her fully rigged now. Will they use a deck sweeper main? How about the hydraulic leach control?

They've gone this far by incorporating AC75 foils into their new R & D machine. Why wouldn't you want to replicate most of the systems of the AC 75 so you can actively develop them and provide near direct feedback to the full size boats?

It's quite subtle, but very clever...

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8 minutes ago, nav said:

What back door? A 20m* AC75 vs a 12m non-surrogate. What am I missing?

8m long bow sprit...

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26 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

8m long bow sprit...

If they only sail with a main then they could match the AC75 geometry without in... Basically take an AC75 and cut 6m off the nose - won't matter when you are foiling.

Anyone got a view on the beam / foil arm distance?

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2 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

If they only sail with a main then they could match the AC75 geometry without in... Basically take an AC75 and cut 6m off the nose - won't matter when you are foiling.

Looking at the volume in the bow. It looks like, in the real world, the could happily add 3m to the bow section and 2m to the stern.....Suddenly its a 17m yacht. They are trying to get a 12m to feel quite a bit bigger.

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They also plan to start out with symmetrical foils that look very similar to the other teams foils in angels, etc... (without the bulb). The design changes seem to shift more towards the other boats.  Now they can do more foil testing like the other teams did on their test boats.

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6 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

They also plan to start out with symmetrical foils that look very similar to the other teams foils in angels, etc... (without the bulb). The design changes seem to shift more towards the other boats.  Now they can do more foil testing like the other teams did on their test boats.

You are confusing, they are trying to mislead other teams, flatter hulls, anhedral foils.

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24 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Are you confusing Te Ahmed and Te Haktoum ?

Well-played, sir. I commend you.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^^ I was expecting that answer

When Dalts tells something pleasing: "Are you saying Dalts is a liar ? "

When Dalts tells that other teams may be better " It's because he wants to mislead competition, he is so smart and experienced".

When the kiwi boat crashes: "It's a test, you don't know shit"

When the boat breaks: "It's nothing, we have more time than others"

Nothing changes :)

 

You're finally getting the hang of it, mate. We'll make you an honorary, Kiwi yet. You'll have to apply formally first, of course. ;-)

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It only take 450 faceplants and your shore crews complaining about the amount of mud they have to wash off the bow and the repeated repairs to the sprit for months on end before you realize that maybe that "gorgeous, modern fine entry" everyone was excited about wasn't the greatest idea...

yysw278656.jpg

That entry is more like it...

SwimFloatiesInPool-FamVeld-Shutterstock.

And this from the article also caught my eye...

Quote

‘Te Haktoum’ was named by someone and is translated as ‘The Pelican’

The pelican majestically glides and soars at high speeds in the wind. It has great vision and foresight and stealthily swoops in on its prey by clumsily falling head-first into the water...

assignment-349-motion-blur-DYWPhoto-0-15

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Just now, Tornado-Cat said:

Are you confusing Te Ahmed and Te Haktoum ?

Not at all, not even after being dropped on my head at birth, and with one glass eye from a pirate attack.

13 hours ago, chesirecat said:

""There is no doubt looking back that the Challengers all learned some valuable lessons and got a bit of a jump on us with their developments. But it was a conscious decision of ours to suck that up and play the long game knowing that points don't start to count until the first race of the America's Cup, which obviously is in March 2021. ”continued Dalton."

This may or not be an accurate representation of the situation of course, the AC being the AC.

 

1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Recognizing the obvious.

“There is no doubt looking back that the Challengers all learnt some valuable lessons and got a bit of a jump on us with their developments. But it was a conscious decision of ours to suck that up and play the long game knowing that points don’t start to count until the first race of the America’s Cup, which obviously is in March 2021.” continued Dalton.

 And did you mean Te Maktoum?

 

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

You're finally getting the hang of it, mate. We'll make you an honorary, Kiwi yet. You'll have to apply formally first, of course. ;-)

I think I'll ask rh 0,3000 or the whiny bitter first  ;)

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Just now, Tornado-Cat said:

I think I'll ask rh 0,3000 or the whiny bitter first  ;)

Been one for quite a while, and it is Sir Whiny Bitter for you, mate.

 

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i happened to catch on the webcam the moment Te Kahu was first wheeled out into the light. I was too far away to do anything about it.

 

vasIsDas.jpg

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15 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Looks like she might be about to re-emerge? A cradle has appeared.

Ooh good the SW breeze is starting to build. Hopefully they are out on the water today!

 

BE058C17-942A-48C9-B406-41FFFFA2EF79.jpeg

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1 minute ago, uflux said:

Ooh good the SW breeze is starting to build. Hopefully they are out on the water today!

 

BE058C17-942A-48C9-B406-41FFFFA2EF79.jpeg

Where do you get this data?

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30 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Looks like she might be about to re-emerge? A cradle has appeared.

Na, that was the moment yesterday I saw something was up. I made a few calls but was unable to attend.

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7 minutes ago, barfy said:

A cradle has appeared.

Could be Te Aihe's cradle, ready for dismantling and packing away?

EDIT: Yes, I think it is, a piece has just come off.

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Another different strategy by ETNZ with their new test boat as a 1.5 model between 1 and boat 2 etc. The interesting thing is the hull design which is different to one so could it be the vision of boat 2 we're seeing? Can't wait to see the 75's racing in the warm up series.

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5 hours ago, nav said:

Good go for it. Is there any one of the multiple foils seen that interested you in particular or do you require precise measurements for them all? :D

I think you'll find Te Kaahu's are not full sized - but that just my WAG, without yellow lines

?

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17 hours ago, kenergy said:

And the cleverness of that reply flew right over the heads of our foreign mates. 

Maybe some context will help

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From this view it looks remarkably like a planing dinghy with an anti–nose dive forefoot. Not particularly remarkable at all (pic reposted from #1255). The 15° V might help with rolling to windward pre foiling, the planning strake is a different approach to the belly of Te Aihe: similar philosophy but simpler implementation. It's designed to plane when touching down, not try to slice through.

498710537_ETNZmule.thumb.jpg.c371ef84d1e1f662fe0af70fdbf65b43.jpg

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12 minutes ago, RobG said:

From this view it looks remarkably like a planing dinghy with an anti–nose dive forefoot. Not particularly remarkable at all (pic reposted from #1255). The 15° V might help with rolling to windward pre foiling, the planning strake is a different approach to the belly of Te Aihe: similar philosophy but simpler implementation. It's designed to plane when touching down, not try to slice through.

498710537_ETNZmule.thumb.jpg.c371ef84d1e1f662fe0af70fdbf65b43.jpg

Exactly. More of a planning hull and the bow has been changed to pop back up when it hits the water.

Image may contain: sky, cloud and outdoorimage.jpeg.534cabd359f60505678915a7925b6c5f.jpeg

 

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Just now, RobG said:

Maybe some context will help

Warning: not for cry babies!

 

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