Salty Seacock

Emirates Team New Zealand.

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5 hours ago, barfy said:

I did a little edit of the video from the Italian Guys, who got it elsewhere. (sorry for no original credit)

No AFX atm, so just Prm with no stab on the zoomed.

There were cuts between zoomed and not zoomed. I put the zoomed together with some more zoom at half speed to illustrate the traveler movement, and jib and main sheet on. Seems to me that as they round up there is a sheet on, then a traveler on, seperate movements.

The second bit is zoomed out to show the head, which as i observed before, seems passive. 

But any observations please speak up!

Over.

 

 

Very flush and clean deck.

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I think the main is just really low stretch, and it doesn't take much trim on to get the leech tight up top.  The traveler is also curved up at the ends which opens leech when car is away from center line

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It looks to me that the boat needs to bear away, find a suitable puff then quickly turn to windward and sheet the main.  The increased velocity of the foil arm during the turn creates enough increase of water flow over the foil' and along with the slow pump of the main, that is enough to get the boat on the foil.  Once on the foil it is relatively easy to stay on the foil with the increase speed.  It is the rotation of the boat that increases the flow over the foil that allows lift off.

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1 hour ago, trt131 said:

It looks to me that the boat needs to bear away, find a suitable puff then quickly turn to windward and sheet the main.  The increased velocity of the foil arm during the turn creates enough increase of water flow over the foil' and along with the slow pump of the main, that is enough to get the boat on the foil.  Once on the foil it is relatively easy to stay on the foil with the increase speed.  It is the rotation of the boat that increases the flow over the foil that allows lift off.

If Te Kahu needs to do that with large bulbless foils it doesn't augur well for boats with small bulbed foils.

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1 hour ago, DayTripper said:

If Te Kahu needs to do that with large bulbless foils it doesn't augur well for boats with small bulbed foils.

Like everything else we have seen I don't think it will be nearly as pronounced for the bigger AC75.

The hull speed of the AC75 is about 1.5 times the test yacht (11 to 12 knots vs about 8), they should very easily get up to that speed and by then the foils should be really starting to work.

Also that looks under 10 knots there, so probably right on the viable wind limit anyway.

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4 minutes ago, Boybland said:

Also that looks under 10 knots there, so probably right on the viable wind limit anyway.

That's sort of the point.

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1 minute ago, DayTripper said:

That's sort of the point.

I know, I just don't think the 7 knot lower limit is low enough to cause too many headaches for the AC75 in this regard.

Drop it to 5 or 6 knots and it might turn into a similar scenario and there are bound to be moments in racing where it does, I just don't think it will be that many.

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36 minutes ago, Boybland said:

 

Like everything else we have seen I don't think it will be nearly as pronounced for the bigger AC75.

The hull speed of the AC75 is about 1.5 times the test yacht (11 to 12 knots vs about 8), they should very easily get up to that speed and by then the foils should be really starting to work.

Also that looks under 10 knots there, so probably right on the viable wind limit anyway.

?? Where are those figures from??

yes the foil area and sail area are a bit more on the 75 but hawk is surely lighter. So I’m not convinced there is much in it for minimum foiling wind speed ...:mellow:

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An awful lot of supposition based on a few seconds of a single transition to foiling by a test boat and somewhat inexperienced and crew. The technique used may be just whatever works at the time.

The hot–shots have tipped theirs over and crashed it many times, maybe these boats are just fucking hard to sail and any transition to foiling where you don't fall over is a good one. I think we need to hear a lot more from those who actually sail them about how that's done.

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On 2/4/2020 at 9:23 PM, Priscilla said:

Will the others follow suit and consign the whomper to the bin.

Crikey Priscilla, I though you were a bogan.

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4 hours ago, uflux said:

?? Where are those figures from??

yes the foil area and sail area are a bit more on the 75 but hawk is surely lighter. So I’m not convinced there is much in it for minimum foiling wind speed ...:mellow:

Maybe:

Hull speed can be calculated by the following formula:

{\displaystyle v_{hull}\approx 1.34\times {\sqrt {L_{WL}}}}

where

{\displaystyle L_{WL}} is the length of the waterline in feet, and

{\displaystyle v_{hull}} is the hull speed of the vessel in knots

If the length of waterline is given in metres and desired hull speed in knots, the coefficient is 2.43 kn·m−½. The constant may be given as 1.34 to 1.51 knot·ft−½ in imperial units (depending on the source), or 4.50 to 5.07 km·h−1·m−½ in metric units, or 1.25 to 1.41 m·s−1·m−½ in SI units.

The ratio of speed to {\displaystyle {\sqrt {L_{WL}}}} is often called the "speed/length ratio", even though it is a ratio of speed to the square root of length.

Wikipedia

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49 minutes ago, barfy said:

Maybe:

Hull speed can be calculated by the following formula:

{\displaystyle v_{hull}\approx 1.34\times {\sqrt {L_{WL}}}}

where

{\displaystyle L_{WL}} is the length of the waterline in feet, and

{\displaystyle v_{hull}} is the hull speed of the vessel in knots

If the length of waterline is given in metres and desired hull speed in knots, the coefficient is 2.43 kn·m−½. The constant may be given as 1.34 to 1.51 knot·ft−½ in imperial units (depending on the source), or 4.50 to 5.07 km·h−1·m−½ in metric units, or 1.25 to 1.41 m·s−1·m−½ in SI units.

The ratio of speed to {\displaystyle {\sqrt {L_{WL}}}} is often called the "speed/length ratio", even though it is a ratio of speed to the square root of length.

Wikipedia

That doesn’t take into account foil lift which is transitioning the displacement mode as soon as it starts moving. Different physics bro 

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2 hours ago, uflux said:

That doesn’t take into account foil lift which is transitioning the displacement mode as soon as it starts moving. Different physics bro 

But still hull speed would be an large factor in that that equation? And mass..And water density a constant.

Ok, I've caught a shit load of fish today and drank beer and can't think math, good night.

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3 hours ago, uflux said:

That doesn’t take into account foil lift which is transitioning the displacement mode as soon as it starts moving. Different physics bro 

Which is what I was trying to point out.

Basically an AC75 should accelerate smoothly to about 11 knots, even quite tight on the wind, by which time the foils will be really starting work and make a diference.

With the 34 footer it will only do this to about 8 knots and the foils won't be nearly as effective so you may need to bear away more to get up over the hump and get airbourne.

I'm not saying you won't have to bear away to get the AC75 up, you almost certainly will in light conditions, but probably not as far down as you have to on the 34 footer where they were really a long way down before accelerating up onto the foils.

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Sorry if this has come up earlier, had a quick look back, but couldn't see anything on it... 

Does anyone know what has happened to the webcam feed at 

https://www.takeabreak.co.nz/webcams/16/auckland_viaduct_harbour_webcam

Seems that it hasn't refreshed since the 4th Feb?

Could be my computer settings, as stranger things have happened previously, but I get the same result on my phone....

Do we think maybe GD has had enough of us keeping an eye on his boys and given them "the word" to shut it down?  :angry:

 

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Yeah, I've been waiting for them to fix the webcam since the 5th. The whole site went down briefly a couple of days before that so maybe they are having issues.

My attempts to catch them going out are shot if I can't see when the boat is about to leave the dock.

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45 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Yeah, I've been waiting for them to fix the webcam since the 5th. The whole site went down briefly a couple of days before that so maybe they are having issues.

My attempts to catch them going out are shot if I can't see when the boat is about to leave the dock.

All part of their new stealth programme  <_<

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1 hour ago, weta27 said:

Yeah, I've been waiting for them to fix the webcam since the 5th. The whole site went down briefly a couple of days before that so maybe they are having issues.

My attempts to catch them going out are shot if I can't see when the boat is about to leave the dock.

Am thinking you maybe you are right Weta...

I see the City Webcam is going as usual (https://www.takeabreak.co.nz/webcams/209/auckland_city_webcam), but the Queens Wharf (https://www.takeabreak.co.nz/webcams/61/auckland_queens_wharf_webcam)  seems to be stuck in the same time warp!! 

Bugger, now I know that your quality footage is controlled by the same camera, I'm more put out than ever!!! :angry:

Although I have to confess my reasons are much more selfish, if I see they have been out for a splash, I jump on here to see what's new.

If they've not been out, I give it a miss as I know almost without doubt that the only thing happening on here will be bitching, name calling, sulking, finger pointing and all the other usual kindergarten playground actives!!!   :D:lol:;)      (With all due respect my fellow Anarchists) 

Do we need to send the Takeabreak team an email and tell them that the problem they are having is starting to have an affect on the mental stability of some mentally unstable America's Cup nuts!?!?!?!  
 

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We need someone working in the vicinity in the morning who can spot the boat, then should get on here and let 

@weta27 know.

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3 hours ago, The Dannevegus Express said:

Am thinking you maybe you are right Weta...

I see the City Webcam is going as usual (https://www.takeabreak.co.nz/webcams/209/auckland_city_webcam), but the Queens Wharf (https://www.takeabreak.co.nz/webcams/61/auckland_queens_wharf_webcam)  seems to be stuck in the same time warp!! 

Bugger, now I know that your quality footage is controlled by the same camera, I'm more put out than ever!!! :angry:

Although I have to confess my reasons are much more selfish, if I see they have been out for a splash, I jump on here to see what's new.

If they've not been out, I give it a miss as I know almost without doubt that the only thing happening on here will be bitching, name calling, sulking, finger pointing and all the other usual kindergarten playground actives!!!   :D:lol:;)      (With all due respect my fellow Anarchists) 

Do we need to send the Takeabreak team an email and tell them that the problem they are having is starting to have an affect on the mental stability of some mentally unstable America's Cup nuts!?!?!?!  
 

So, you come in here to soak up the information without contributing at all and only if the boat has been out because, you think that the rest of the time we're worthless to you.

You're a proper bludger. 

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On 2/8/2020 at 3:36 PM, DayTripper said:

If Te Kahu needs to do that with large bulbless foils it doesn't augur well for boats with small bulbed foils.

Yea, I doubt those boats with a bulbed foil will be able to foil....

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2 hours ago, Salty Seacock said:

So, you come in here to soak up the information without contributing at all and only if the boat has been out because, you think that the rest of the time we're worthless to you.

You're a proper bludger. 

Ummmmm, well....     Yeah...    Guilty as charged Salty :mellow:

So, if I promise to make more effort to add to the general shenanigans that goes in around here more often, will you revoke the Bludger status you have tagged me with?  ^_^

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1 hour ago, The Dannevegus Express said:

Ummmmm, well....     Yeah...    Guilty as charged Salty :mellow:

So, if I promise to make more effort to add to the general shenanigans that goes in around here more often, will you revoke the Bludger status you have tagged me with?  ^_^

Alternatively you could be a proactively chauvinist xenophobe and still offer no constructive input.

 

That way you wouldn’t be a bludger, you’d be Salty Seafuckwit. 

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1 hour ago, The Dannevegus Express said:

will you revoke the Bludger status you have tagged me with?

Nah, badge of honour mate, wear it with pride.

Bludging is fine, it's the bitch, bile and spittle brigade that drive us around the bend.

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4 hours ago, weta27 said:

Nah, badge of honour mate, wear it with pride.

Bludging is fine, it's the bitch, bile and spittle brigade that drive us around the bend.

I put about half the population here on ignore and suddenly enjoy it again!

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I just had a nice reply from the Snap IT people and they are aware that some of their cameras are down, including the Viaduct Harbour Webcam.

"Rest assured that we are working on the problem and hopefully will have the cameras back up and running ASAP."

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... and again:

"Sorted,,  back to boat watching you go...   Enjoy"

... and bingo, you can see Te Kahu was dropped in the water 20mins ago.

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On 2/8/2020 at 5:36 PM, DayTripper said:

If Te Kahu needs to do that with large bulbless foils it doesn't augur well for boats with small bulbed foils.

Or it’s a shit design on mini Flipper. We have no idea. Or it means nothing. 

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1 hour ago, weta27 said:

"Sorted,,  back to boat watching you go...   Enjoy"

did they try

turn it off and turn it back on again

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7 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

https://livesaildie.com/nz-ocean-racing-the-vo65-arrives-in-auckland/?fbclid=IwAR0wfOVNkXAlD6FZ1k_7iZCQOZc3KBpwZm-pxqEK5_ls8s6cztT0YG9GHxk

NZ Ocean Racing – An official entry into The Ocean Race 2021/2022

Could we see Burling and Tuke as part of a NZ crew?

Sounds like a girl's team if Bianca is running it? Don't know just my guess?

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Just now, Forourselves said:

https://livesaildie.com/nz-ocean-racing-the-vo65-arrives-in-auckland/?fbclid=IwAR0wfOVNkXAlD6FZ1k_7iZCQOZc3KBpwZm-pxqEK5_ls8s6cztT0YG9GHxk

NZ Ocean Racing – An official entry into The Ocean Race 2021/2022

Could we see Burling and Tuke as part of a NZ crew?

No, they will be the official ETNZ entry in the Imoca's.

Don't ask me how I know, if even Dalts doesn't know that yet.

 

 

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and she has left the wharf

 

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52 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Sounds like a girl's team if Bianca is running it? Don't know just my guess?

An all female team supported by ETNZ would be choice^_^ 

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54 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Sounds like a girl's team if Bianca is running it? Don't know just my guess?

No.  Don’t think so. 

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The Hawk cutting up the Rangi channel to bits a few minutes ago .. transitions looking pretty good .. saw her do one foiling tack and in another watery tack there was quick acceleration back up, no bear away needed. Feels like 5-8 knots of wind if that.

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grain of salt please

 

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

https://livesaildie.com/nz-ocean-racing-the-vo65-arrives-in-auckland/?fbclid=IwAR0wfOVNkXAlD6FZ1k_7iZCQOZc3KBpwZm-pxqEK5_ls8s6cztT0YG9GHxk

NZ Ocean Racing – An official entry into The Ocean Race 2021/2022

Could we see Burling and Tuke as part of a NZ crew?

Not sure what's driving the timing on this, maybe Bianca has now got some sponsorship money or something and has made an official entry, but the boat has been out at YDL in the shed for months now...

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34 minutes ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

That's one sad little boat (Harmonic?) in the foreground.

Looks like one of the barnacle farms that used to grace Okahu bay before they pulled the mooring out. 

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20 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Alternatively you could be a proactively chauvinist xenophobe and still offer no constructive input.

 

That way you wouldn’t be a bludger, you’d be Salty Seafuckwit. 

Hahaha. You missed racist. 

At least I'm honest. 

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22 minutes ago, weta27 said:

A bit far away but managed to finally get some pics.

 

 

DSC_7796.jpg

 

 

The line in the middle of the inside of the sail, is it the counterpart of a halyard to tension the sail from the top ? or is it used to camber the sail ?

 

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The line in the middle of the inside of the sail, is it the counterpart of a halyard to tension the sail from the top ? or is it used to camber the sail ?

 

It’s the shadow of the backstay. 

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12 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

It’s the shadow of the backstay. 

That's not the line he means - it runs almost parallel to the mast and is visible in all five photos above. I hadn't noticed it until I looked at these on the computer.

Not evident in any Te Aihe pics.

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4 minutes ago, weta27 said:

That's not the line he means - it runs almost parallel to the mast and is visible in all four photos above. I hadn't noticed it until I looked at these on the computer.

Not evident in any Te Aihe pics.

I see it now. Thanks. 

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22 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

I see it now. Thanks. 

I tried to do a yellow line and a couple of arrows to help, but got beaten to it. 

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54 minutes ago, kenergy said:

I tried to do a yellow line and a couple of arrows to help, but got beaten to it. 

I can delete my post if it’d make you feel better?

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33 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

I can delete my post if it’d make you feel better?

No, it's not a time issue, just my incompetence. 

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2 hours ago, weta27 said:

That's not the line he means - it runs almost parallel to the mast and is visible in all five photos above. I hadn't noticed it until I looked at these on the computer.

Not evident in any Te Aihe pics.

Just had a look back at some older pics (Thanks RG) is it looks super evident in this one...

Is it possibly just a fabric change line??

 

yysw279253.jpg

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25 minutes ago, The Dannevegus Express said:

Just had a look back at some older pics (Thanks RG) is it looks super evident in this one...

Is it possibly just a fabric change line??

 

yysw279253.jpg

If you pull that line taught down across the face of the battens you'll get same volume in a wing shape.

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1 hour ago, The Dannevegus Express said:

Is it possibly just a fabric change line??

No, there's something underneath, you can see where the fabric is stretched over it

line-1.jpg

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2 minutes ago, weta27 said:

No, there's something underneath, you can see where the fabric is stretched over it

line-1.jpg

It is just a stitch line and material panel change I think

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2 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Same panel product change on headsail luff.

Stiffer laminate overlay?

E65900B7-A9CC-4C0D-8D9E-0E5BF142400E.jpeg.3086e5472b1c32c9910b4328db703a77.jpeg

I hadn't noticed how much more volume the battens in the passive zone had either.

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7 hours ago, weta27 said:

That's not the line he means - it runs almost parallel to the mast and is visible in all five photos above. I hadn't noticed it until I looked at these on the computer.

Thanks for the photos weta27

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2 hours ago, WetHog said:

They should be.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Yes they should - it would be consistent with just about every other AC they have participated in... and more recently they were ahead in AC34 (but got caught up to) and AC35. :-D

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7 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Same panel product change on headsail luff.

Stiffer laminate overlay?

E65900B7-A9CC-4C0D-8D9E-0E5BF142400E.jpeg.3086e5472b1c32c9910b4328db703a77.jpeg

I think it's just a extra layer of taffeta or similar.  I don't think it's an object inside the skins like a line as the creases don't deflect around it that I can see.

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Jib has it too....

yysw279253.jpg

 

The difference in cloth is also visible here ....

DSC_7769.jpg

Brilliant once again Weta.......:)

 

 

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2 hours ago, rh3000 said:

Yes they should - it would be consistent with just about every other AC they have participated in... and more recently they were ahead in AC34 (but got caught up to) and AC35. :-D

Not AC 31 or AC32.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Next race in 5hrs.

https://www.facebook.com/events/royal-geelong-yacht-club/live-stream-2020-49er-49erfx-and-nacra-17-world-championships/560503617871920/

 

 

 

Pos

Sail Number Team Netto Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q5 Q6 Q7 Q8 Q9 Q10 F11 F12 F13 F14 F15 F16 F17 F18 M19 Total
1 DownloadFlagImage?countryCode=GBRGBR 3 Dylan FLETCHER-SCOTT
Stuart BITHELL 
4.0 1.0 1.0 2.0                                 4.0
2 DownloadFlagImage?countryCode=AUTAUT 6 Benjamin BILDSTEIN
David HUSSL 
5.0 2.0 1.0 2.0                                 5.0
3 DownloadFlagImage?countryCode=NZLNZL 1 Peter BURLING
Blair TUKE 
7.0 1.0 5.0 1.0                                 7.0
4 DownloadFlagImage?countryCode=NEDNED 8 Bart LAMBRIEX
Pim van VUGT 
9.0 3.0 1.0 5.0                                 9.0
5 DownloadFlagImage?countryCode=USAUSA 311 Andrew MOLLERUS
Ian MACDIARMID 
11.0 5.0 5.0 1.0                                 11.0
6 DownloadFlagImage?countryCode=ESPESP 4 Diego BOTIN
Iago LÓPEZ MARRA 
14.0 4.0 9.0 1.0                                 14.0
7 DownloadFlagImage?countryCode=USAUSA 141 Harry MELGES
Finn ROWE 
17.0 10.0 2.0 5.0                                 17.0
8 DownloadFlagImage?countryCode=GERGER 2 Erik HEIL
Thomas PLOESSEL 
17.0 8.0 3.0 6.0                                 17.0
9 DownloadFlagImage?countryCode=ESTEST 321 Juuso ROIHU
Henri ROIHU 
18.0 11.0 5.0 2.0                                 18.0
10 DownloadFlagImage?countryCode=POLPOL 42 Łukasz PRZYBYTEK
Paweł KOŁODZIŃSKI 
20.0 11.0 6.0 3.0                                 20.

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6 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Not AC 31 or AC32.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

They were finalists in both events though.:D

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Just now, Priscilla said:

They were finalists in both events though.:D

Sure.  One was by default and the other no one was ever ahead of Alinghi.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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2 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Sure.  One was by default and the other no one was ever ahead of Alinghi.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Haven't they won 2 against Alinghi?

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4 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Haven't they won 2 against Alinghi?

Sure but they weren't ahead of Alinghi in development for AC32.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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AC31 five zip.

Crikey the Kiwis have done some dough over the years.

1987

1988

1992

2003

2007

20013

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2 hours ago, nav said:

Jib has it too....

yysw279253.jpg

 

The difference in cloth is also visible here ....

DSC_7769.jpg

Brilliant once again Weta.......:)

 

 

I don't think this is likely, but i'll throw it out there in case someone knows something that I don't: could be a surface roughening texture in service of delaying separation, akin to vortex generators. 

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15 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

AC31 five zip.

Crikey the Kiwis have done some dough over the years.

 

20013

That was the one sailed with solar sails using the sun as the top mark, yes?

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3 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

That was the one sailed with solar sails using the sun as the top mark, yes?

:D

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7 minutes ago, buckdouger said:

I don't think this is likely, but i'll throw it out there in case someone knows something that I don't: could be a surface roughening texture in service of delaying separation, akin to vortex generators. 

Ahh the old drag reduction chestnut eh.

Dennis may have some in his store.

3M Drag Reduction Riblet Film

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44 minutes ago, buckdouger said:

The difference in cloth is also visible here ....

Thanks, perhaps just an optical illusion, but intriguing. In the RG photo the darker panel is adjacent to the mast whereas in my photos the lighter panel is next to the mast.

Seems that the fabric has a sheen that changes with the direction of the light - in this photo, part-way through a dry foiling gybe, the tension is off as the sail reverses camber, you can see the battens and the mast-adjacent panel appears darker again.

 

line-2.jpg

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4 hours ago, WetHog said:

Not AC 31 or AC32.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

I'd argue ETNZ was further ahead than the other teams in AC31 - in terms of boat design it was deliberately much more aggressive than others as they figured it was their only shot... gamble failed later though... but in lead up? clearly ahead...

NZL92 launched well in advance of SUI100 so again, well ahead in the lead up to the AC... as is what is posited by JS now...

Not who finished ahead, but who is most advanced in lead-up to cup - generally ETNZ are well advanced more than others during their cup endeavours... 

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14 hours ago, rh3000 said:

I'd argue ETNZ was further ahead than the other teams in AC31 - in terms of boat design it was deliberately much more aggressive than others as they figured it was their only shot... gamble failed later though... but in lead up? clearly ahead...

NZL92 launched well in advance of SUI100 so again, well ahead in the lead up to the AC... as is what is posited by JS now...

Not who finished ahead, but who is most advanced in lead-up to cup - generally ETNZ are well advanced more than others during their cup endeavours... 

 Alinghi took a boat with the 2nd IACC number issued for AC31 and dominated the cycle.  Alinghi then took that design advantaged and dominated the AC32 Acts with SUI-75.  And SUI-75 even took 3 out 5 races in Act 11 over ETNZ, BOR and LR sailing their 1st new boats.  The facts don't support your argument.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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The swiss boats were simply evolutions of earlier TNZ designs. 

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51 minutes ago, kenergy said:

The swiss boats were simply evolutions of earlier TNZ designs. 

And it could be said TNZ designs were evolution's of A3 designs.  ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Even though I hated seeing NZ lose to her, SUI-100 was a nice boat. Slightly fuller forward, she was almost fish form rather than canoe. 

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1 hour ago, kenergy said:

The swiss boats were simply evolutions of earlier TNZ designs. 

The Swiss TEAM were simply an evolution of TNZ.

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25 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

The Swiss TEAM were simply an evolution of TNZ.

Sure were, leaving behind a gutted carcass. We were never going to defend the cup following the "evolution", and that's why those fuckers can fuck right off. 

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