Salty Seacock

Emirates Team New Zealand.

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Ah, yes, and that was a loan, and nobody realized they lost $ 3 M, and it's such a good scam that they know where the money is, and they were "informant", well pehaps "spies". :lol:

If nothing else I admire your irony.
 

Creating a nonsensical statement like that, in response to an accusation of stupidity is the sort of entertainment we can only get here. 

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6 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Go and make the kiwi public believe that ....yachtidiot.

Ah, yes, and that was a loan, and nobody realized they lost $ 3 M, and it's such a good scam that they know where the money is, and they were "informant", well pehaps "spies". :lol:

Not that I understand what you are trying to say, but the $3m "loan" and the missing scam money are not the same. We don't know the amount of the "scam" money or how much could be recovered.

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19 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Not that I understand what you are trying to say, but the $3m "loan" and the missing scam money are not the same. We don't know the amount of the "scam" money or how much could be recovered.

Nor was it a loan. It never happened. 

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12 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Nor was it a loan. It never happened. 

That's why there are the ""s. I didn't know how to describe this money otherwise.

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5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

No not a good look, first application was fair but the second? Would be interesting to know who in ETNZ was double dipping into the $3 million for time spent advising ACE. Great work if you can get it.......

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8 minutes ago, thetruth said:

No not a good look, first application was fair but the second? Would be interesting to know who in ETNZ was double dipping into the $3 million for time spent advising ACE. Great work if you can get it.......

One article suggested GD was paying ETNZ salaries out of ACE funds, including for designers while they worked up their AC75. Whether that was spent for the purpose of ‘running the event’ will likely be a point of, umm, discussion. 

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11 minutes ago, thetruth said:

No not a good look, first application was fair but the second? 

Hard to see how they incurred C19-related ‘revenue losses’ but maybe that’ll get looked into and resolved too.

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8 minutes ago, Hawke said:

As for ACE Ltd paying for services from ETNZ I don't see a problem with that at all.  They are two completely different organisations.  If one provides a service to the other then why not let costs lie where they occur.

Part of the way they framed it in the (finally) decent release they put out, at here and elsewhere:

The [informants] have previously been very clear with ACE that they considered it legitimate and provided examples such as F1 racing where the same approach has been taking on common design elements.

https://www.sail-world.com/news/229864/Americas-Cup-Team-New-Zealand-hits-the-headlines

Again, it does seem at least questionable if designing boats was in line with the ACE mandate to ‘run the event’ but I guess we’ll see.

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6 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Aren't the 3m "loan"/"not loan" and the amount on the Hungarian account different issues?
Are they by chance both 3m?

That's my take on it as well. Nowhere does it state that the $3-mil was the amount paid to the scammers - it is only stated that a payment was made to the manipulated bank account, and some of the money was repatriated. My understanding from publicly-available information is the $3-mil is a different issue altogether which the sacked contractors are alleging was a "loan" to ETNZ which "re-classified" (whatever that means). OTOH, Dalts has categorically declared that there was no $3-mil loan to ETNZ.

My guess would be there's an unaccounted-for $3-mil hole in the ACE Ltd. accounts which they're trying to parlay as a "loan" to ETNZ to cover their butts, but Dalts is not playing ball.

Maybe they should look further west from Hungary to find another bank account in a much more secure and secretive banking regime...:D

 

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That they alerted police authorities after realizing what happened probably proves they acted with good intention, but got scammed by the account number.

It’s a little strange how they say they recovered some unannounced portion of it - why would the hacker transfer some of it to (say) the Cayman Islands but leave some of it in the Hungarian account? 

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So why has Dalton fired "more than one" persons from ACE (Calder and Mayo?)For not reading the email address properly or something else?

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3 minutes ago, Indio said:

My guess would be there's an unaccounted-for $3-mil hole in the ACE Ltd. accounts which they're trying to parlay as a "loan" to ETNZ to cover their butts, but Dalts is not playing ball.

Or maybe the $3M originally ~was~ a loan, that had to be reclassified because it was later found (by the spies/informants/auditors) to be not legal to do it that way under the Host Venue Agreement.

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2 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Worth a listen (except for the Mike Hosking bits), for anyone who wants to unpack the headlines into explanations.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12344690

Noting:

  • One of the informants was in charge of paying the invoice.
  • The $3M quoted is not the same amount as the invoice.
  • They've got some of the money back.
  • The money wasn't public money.

What was actually said in that interview...

1. One of the informants was in charge of paying the invoice.

GD: "One of the informants was in charge of the accounts of the event. And it's a really important point."

Again, were these "informants" the MBIE people? What does this have to do with "spying"? There is zero clarity here as to what's really going. He's simply shifting the blame.

2. The $3M quoted is not the same amount as the invoice.

GD: ...

He doesn't mention the amount. So I don't know where you're getting that. Not from this interview,

3. The money wasn't public money.

GD: Instantly we rang MBIE and told them what had happened, and that it was not public money, because it wasn't.

How is the money differentiated here? What is his proof of this? Was the "large European contractor" supposed to be paid out of non-public funds? Sounds sloppy and like desparate butt-covering.

4. They've got some of the money back.

GD: We've got a lot of the money back. Well some of the money back at this stage.

So it is "a lot" or is it "some"? You got the wire fee returned?

5. Is it correct that ETNZ has been "obstructive" to the investigation?

GD: Yeah, kind of.

*********

Sticking with the facts...it's going to get ugly.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

from there

In short, this loan discussion is unrelated to the ETNZ charges for the Event work done by its staff on the creation of the concept and design for the new class of the yacht to be used in the Events (a radical new foiling monohull concept) and the Class Rule itself.


I suppose LR’s team designers were therefore also paid out of taxpayer money? 

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1 minute ago, Hawke said:

it is damn hard sifting the chaff out of what the NZ Herald and Stuff write.

For sure! Lol

The ETNZ release provides pretty good detail, and you’d suppose arguments. 

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7 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Or maybe the $3M originally ~was~ a loan, that had to be reclassified because it was later found (by the spies/informants/auditors) to be not legal to do it that way under the Host Venue Agreement.

The $3-mil is now evidently legitimate charges for work done by ETNZ personnel for ACE Ltd, which is only 50% of the actual work work effort put in. Seems fair enough to me...

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6 minutes ago, Hawke said:

That's legitimate I guess if that is in ACE's brief to do that. 

Big IF but sure, it is being argued that way. Again from there:

We do not accept that the matters raised in the Beattie Varley Report are individually or cumulatively material adverse events in relation to the management and delivery of the Events.

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Would hate to see any scandal reduce the will of the Kiwi's to support a challenge for the next cup.  It has been fun seeing NZ compete in the AC.

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9 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Would hate to see any scandal reduce the will of the Kiwi's to support a challenge for the next cup.  It has been fun seeing NZ compete in the AC.

I’m sure you mean, Next Defence.

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23 minutes ago, Indio said:

The $3-mil is now evidently legitimate charges for work done by ETNZ personnel for ACE Ltd, which is only 50% of the actual work work effort put in. Seems fair enough to me...

You would have thought that Dalton would have employed people to run that side so that him and Shoebridge could concentrate on running the sailing and not getting involved in the event and having to add their consultancy fees to ACE........

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from https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/121995084/americas-cup-team-new-zealand-boss-grant-dalton-says-attacks-are-personal


The letter, obtained by Stuff, raised concerns over the use of public money.

The claims in the letter include: "ACE has used part of the event Investment for costs that have arisen but which are not in relation to the management and delivery of the events"

 

meaning there’s clearly an argument 

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4 minutes ago, thetruth said:

You would have thought that Dalton would have employed people to run that side so that him and Shoebridge could concentrate on running the sailing and not getting involved in the event and having to add their consultancy fees to ACE........

I thought that was the plan? They originally appointed Greg Horton and Tina Symmans to run ACE, with Mayo and Calder as it’s directors. Grant Dalton was overseeing both entities. 

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

I thought that was the plan? They originally appointed Greg Horton and Tina Symmans to run ACE, with Mayo and Calder as it’s directors. Grant Dalton was overseeing both entities. 

Best I can tell, GD is CEO of both ETNZ and of ACE. Something we should probably expect to see change, soon.

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1 minute ago, Hawke said:

Who wrote the letter?

Council chief executive Stephen Town (stepped down last Friday) and Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) chief executive Carolyn Tremain

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4 minutes ago, Hawke said:

Who wrote the letter?

This came as a letter by council chief executive Stephen Town and Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) chief executive Carolyn Tremain outlined “serious matters” signalled by a financial investigation firm ordered by the government to look into the management of the looming regatta in Auckland.

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Something many don’t seem to understand is the test will be whether money has fungibility. In many small businesses and partnerships, people too clever for their own good think they’re moving money around here and there and if in the end everything checks out all is clear. But if your monies are essentially fungible and the losses were incurred but the opportunity cost not because some money from external partner that was not appropriate? Sorry that’s a no no. 

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from

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/122010190/unravelling-the-americas-cup-mess

What’s at the centre of the money concerns?

$3 million paid to Team New Zealand by ACE for work done by Team New Zealand on the event itself.

Team New Zealand say the $3 million sum was not a loan but represented about half the costs incurred by the team in creating the event, such as designing a new class of boat in conjunction with challengers, and negotiating the event "protocol". They say the payment had been on regular budget reporting to the event's multi-agency steering group for more than a year, and has been known to all parties.

Team New Zealand insist there are no irregularities and that they are assisting with the investigation.

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13 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

 "ACE has used part of the event Investment for costs that have arisen but which are not in relation to the management and delivery of the events"

This is the underlying allegation which the sacked contractors made when they were sprung, to justify their claim of whistleblowing status to buy themselves temporary anonymity. One of these ex-officio "costs" is the sacked contractors' allegation that ACE paid to ship Dalt's race car to Oz, an accusation which Dalts quickly torched by producing shipping and payment documents.

It's really frustrating why no one in the media has asked the simplest of questions: "Are Mayo and Calder still involved in ACE Ltd?"

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

One article suggested GD was paying ETNZ salaries out of ACE funds, including for designers while they worked up their AC75. Whether that was spent for the purpose of ‘running the event’ will likely be a point of, umm, discussion. 

It depends on what they were designing. If was designing the youth foiling boat, then I'd expect those payments would be legitimate.

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3 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

such as designing a new class

Again, did LR’s designers therefore also get paid out of this account? How about other teams? 

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4 minutes ago, Hawke said:

Aside from that isn't this all a bit moot?  The Government is funding BOTH ETNZ and ACE. 

No, not this directly! Siphoning Auckland ratepayer or NZ taxpayer funds to pay for ETNZ’s AC75 design work is arguably not the intent behind any of that money. Hence the dispute. 
 

If ACE ‘event management funds’ are being drained well then who’s supposed to top it back up, Prada? 

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16 hours ago, SPEARO said:

Rubbish quality due to iPhone to Youtube, and to not give the spies any details. But gives a pretty good idea of racing geometry from almost an upwind position relative to the 'course'

Thanks for the vid, that was really cool to see.

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I think some posters are merging separate issues into one. I sense "the financial investigation firm ordered by the government to look into the management of the looming regatta in Auckland" was a standard MBIE audit as part of their fiduciary responsibility for AC36, performed by outside contractors (the prosecution service does it all the time, engaging private legal firms to prosecute cases on behalf of the government). The auditors found some things which they felt needed further investigation which is where the sacked contractors came in. I suspect they were culpably involved in the scammed payment and in ex-officio payments flagged up by the auditors. To cover their butts, they were flipped and leaked confidential information which the auditors were unable to get from their heavy-handed prosecutorial approach to ETNZ personnel..

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38 minutes ago, Indio said:

rs. To cover their butts, they were flipped and leaked confidential information which the auditors were u

Flipped by who? The elephant in the room is the  "Confidential information relayed back from Europe" used to confirm some leaks. The cor had approaches that they reported as they play a pretty level game with etnz? The media contractor? Ineos?

This is a separate issue from the "whistleblowers"I reckon.

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9 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

@HawkeYou taken the day off from advising gov covid response to tell us all on here or are you taking a break from your pro stat job on some big race sled? Or a break from medical studies?

 

i mean are we all just lucky to have you here or you wake up today and felt like being a prick? 

Sign of the sock.

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1 minute ago, barfy said:

Flipped by who? The elephant in the room is the  "Confidential information relayed back from Europe" used to confirm some leaks. The cor had approaches that they reported as they play a pretty level game with etnz? The media contractor? Ineos?

This is a separate issue from the "whistleblowers"I reckon.

By the auditors. The baited info from Europe that nailed the contractors' treachery may have come via the auditors trying to confirm information with LR over the claimed ACE expenditure. The auditors may have dangled the info they already had from the contractors to LR who relayed it back to ETNZ.

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4 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Not that I understand what you are trying to say, but the $3m "loan" and the missing scam money are not the same. We don't know the amount of the "scam" money or how much could be recovered.

Correct, we don't know if it is related, we also don't know they amount. More intriguing, how did they recover part of the money ? what part ? and if they did, they know to whom they got it from.

Clearly Dalton did not say everything and we will know more soon.

 

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2 hours ago, Hawke said:

ITo help you comprehend the situation I'll explain for you...

...based on what I have read ...Someone (presumably...They will be....I doubt that....From listening to all the reports it appears....That's hard to determine...one would expect... would be of strategic value...would have...as it were.

It has been reported...None of us are privy...

Of course we have those saying stronger words for what may have been...It wouldn't have been...

If you find those facts ugly....

Ahm, I saw a whole lot of guessing and spin in your very, very, very,very long post (see above) - but I must have missed all these "facts" you say you provided.

Nice try newb. Now piss off like I said.

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2 hours ago, thetruth said:

So why has Dalton fired "more than one" persons from ACE (Calder and Mayo?)For not reading the email address properly or something else?

He’s fired the sub-contracting company because they’ve been responsible for sharing confidential information. The transfer of money to a Hungarian bank account is one of the things they’ve released. GD’s not shying away from the fact that it was a fuck up, but notes that one of the informants was in a position where they should have avoided the scam in the first place.

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Best I can tell, GD is CEO of both ETNZ and of ACE. Something we should probably expect to see change, soon.

Sting - I was wondering about this too. There's not a lot of info about ACE as a business entity that I've found in the few minutes of looking, but ETNZ seems to claim it as a "subsidiary". If so, then GD would be its CEO as well. And with him talking in the interview about approving what appears to be ACE payments to ACE contractors, that would support that conclusion.

But, it also puts GD in the hot seat for all of this. He can blather on about "spies" and "informants" all he wants, but it's his organization and he's responsible for it. Period. After all, he has both entities housed in the same offices.

The main problem he has is that the information that has come out via these "informants"/"whistleblowers"/"spies" is that one of two things is true based on that letter:

1. Financial impropriety with public funds that could lean toward criminal (at worst);

or,

2. Extremely poor management of the organizations he is supposed to lead (at best)

Either way, unless this story changes dramatically, GD has failed in a huge way.

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7 minutes ago, Hawke said:

Not in your lifetime.  I want to be around when the USA decides to sink Defiant off North Head after getting pantsed in the Challenger series.

Let’s don’t forget it is a race between yacht clubs and not really between nations. The world is toxic enough without hyper nationalism involved in the mix. 

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

By the auditors. The baited info from Europe that nailed the contractors' treachery may have come via the auditors trying to confirm information with LR over the claimed ACE expenditure. The auditors may have dangled the info they already had from the contractors to LR who relayed it back to ETNZ.

Sorry Indio, this make no sense. If what GD is saying is true about "the scam" - what legal culpability would this "informant" have? What "treachery" is there in inadvertently sending a payment to the wrong bank account? Hell, GD signed off on it himself!

No, you're sniffing around the wrong bush. There's more than that here.

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

from

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/122010190/unravelling-the-americas-cup-mess

But making things a little too cosy for 2021 is that Team New Zealand and ACE have been housed in the same building.

Don’t be surprised if there is some tweaking of how things are run given the poor public perception around this unwanted mess.

That is one of the better explanations of this mess that I've seen.

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5 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

That's why there are the ""s. I didn't know how to describe this money otherwise.

Petty cash?

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3 hours ago, Indio said:

The auditors may have dangled the info they already had from the contractors to LR who relayed it back to ETNZ.

Indiot, if the CoR had been so helpful Dalton would have publicly praised them which he did not. Did LR spill the beans ?

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1 hour ago, Hawke said:

The informant may well be the one and the same person involved with the accounting mistake AND disclosing information to a third party.

:lol:

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9 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

:lol:

Yeah - he's not the brightest bulb in the building - but he's enthusiastic.

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Doesn't the San Diego Yacht Club have a strong Hungarian contingent? Maybe GD was just trying to get S+S to the line on the hush? They are still listed on the website as participants you know.

Heh.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Indiot, if the CoR had been so helpful Dalton would have publicly praised them which he did not. Did LR spill the beans ?

By publicly praising them he would’ve put them in an incredibly awkward situation. He would have confirmed an opposition team had been in receipt of sensitive ETNZ information, and the world would know it. Imagine if LR had won, after being publicly outed for receiving sensitive confidential information from a “mole” inside ETNZ. There would forever be an asterisk beside that win. By not involving them, the integrity of all of the teams is maintained. 

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12 minutes ago, Hawke said:

Event hosting - planning, preparation.  Simple answer.

$40 million is a massive amount of loot for a one off yachting regatta that now will no longer host bonanza sized overseas crowds on a AC36 spendathon.

I would have thought due to the impact of Chinese virus the costs to hold the event would shrink accordingly.

If ACE is sending large dollops of loot to a production company for Cup coverage where is the returning cash generated by sales of broadcast rights.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Government halts funding to TNZ subsidiary ACE pending inquiry.

ACE as of date has received and spent $29 million on what exactly.

On achieving the agreed milestones to date in the contract... ?

The Host City agreement with MBIE was signed on the 26th Match 2018 - almost exactly three full years before the end of the AC (21st March 2021).

So we are now over 80% of the way through the agreement, and ETNZ/ACE appear to have received less than 75% of the total amount.

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12 minutes ago, Hawke said:

Event hosting - planning, preparation.  Simple answer.

There should be an enquiry into MBIE - 4,700 employees achieving what outcomes?

FFS look at this motley crew!

screenshot-www.mbie.govt.nz-2020.07.png

Strange isn't it that they even look like government employees. Must be some sort of dress code they use

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3 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

I would have thought due to the impact of Chinese virus the costs to hold the event would shrink accordingly.

How so?

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20 hours ago, Hawke said:

Not correct.  The mortality rate as a percentage of total cases is declining in the USA.  Graph below.

I'll post from now on in the Covid-19 topic.

 

Screenshot_20200701-202740_Chrome.jpg

Semantics wont bring back 5 percent of the people who contracted the disease . 

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So $29m out of $40m has so far been paid to ACE.

ETNZ supports a hold on payments while the investigation runs it's course.

It's a total clusterfuck in the media but having worked on this stuff previously I am not yet worried about ETNZs position.

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20 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

How so?

The hosting rights cost Bermuda $20 million and now for AC 36 those costs have doubled to $40 million for a event with far less contenders supporters super yacht attendance etc etc.

I smell gravy.

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31 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

If ACE is sending large dollops of loot to a production company for Cup coverage where is the returning cash generated by sales of broadcast rights.

According to Dalton, it was ETNZ, not ACE, paying the regular fee to the European "TV" organisation.

Perhaps it is not broadcast-related but something to do with a streaming/5G/data/video process that the team uses under licence?

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3 minutes ago, Hawke said:

Well you are wrong for a start.  Bermuda bid $77m (USD).

The key figures revealed by Gibbons include:

• A $15 million event fee to the America's Cup Events Authority

• A $25 million underwrite to cover any sponsorship shortfall by the authority

• $14 million for site preparation and infrastructure for docks and the America's Cup village

• $11 million in operation expenses for the America's Cup village

• $12 million to cover transport costs, security, emergency services, insurance and legal bills

Spinning the good side of the equation, Gibbons predicted that the island could gain "approximately $250 million from hosting the event" and $14 million was predicted to come in from taxes and duties.

We are talking  hosting right costs like what are being paid to ACE wake up.

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14 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

 

The hosting rights cost Bermuda $20 million and now for AC 36 those costs have doubled to $40 million for a event with far less contenders supporters super yacht attendance etc etc.

I smell gravy.

ETNZ/ACE sold hosting rights? I thought they made a case for investment with some return...

Still waiting on some examples of how decrease in physical attendees would materialy decrease the costs ACE will incur (and are getting subsidised by MBIE)...

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6 hours ago, barfy said:

Sign of the sock.

So which sock is currently missing and feeling super enlightened? 

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Ah, what money is it then yachtidiot ?

Ask Grant Dalton. He’s the one I’m paraphrasing. 
 

Team New Zealand isn’t solely funded by the Government.

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I know it was posted earlier but another great vid from the team. Te Aihe definitely looks to have stepped on from last time.

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26 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

 

The hosting rights cost Bermuda $20 million and now for AC 36 those costs have doubled to $40 million for a event with far less contenders supporters super yacht attendance etc etc.

I smell gravy.

That ain't gravy you're smelling...B)

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@Racing Fast @NZL nothing from you chaps? I thought you were all over it when it came to funding issues and mismanagement of funds?
I mean this is actually a thing you could really get stuck into, why so quiet?  
 

or still working out if there is “sufficient evidence”

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19 minutes ago, weta27 said:

According to Dalton, it was ETNZ, not ACE, paying the regular fee to the European "TV" organisation.

Perhaps it is not broadcast-related but something to do with a streaming/5G/data/video process that th e team uses under licence?

These guys circle-O is the joint venture of Riedel Communications (Germany) and WEST4MEDIA (Austria) are providing technology and expertise to the AC36 broadcasting.

https://www.circle-o.tv/vid/circle-o-feature.mp4

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2 hours ago, Hawke said:

Good move.  No point in having a leaked DRAFT report debated in the media.  

Anway looking at the video of our girl on the water yesterday - I'd say why not throw another $20m their way.  She looks good.

Where did leaked draft report come from? 
It’s not a leaked report and it’s not a draft.

its just gagged at the moment 

NZ Herald and NewstalkZB were served an injunction in the High Court by America's Cup Event Ltd (ACE) and Team NZ from publishing details of a report commissioned by the Crown into the spending of public money.

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13 minutes ago, Hawke said:

Skidmark you seen intent on giving the impression you know more than the rest of us.  Why not post what you know?  Or will you stick to scuttlebutt?

Sorry, HE SEEMS INTENT? 
have you looked at what you have posted in the last 24hrs? 

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2 hours ago, Indio said:

That ain't gravy you're smelling...B)

Right - it’s Vegemite :D 

 

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The only one posting with some sense of superiority and intent is you, across multiple threads with your numerous areas of expertise, sailing tactics, medical, seemingly a law degree now coupled with event management. 
 

anyone would think you should be running the show. 

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6 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Right - it’s Vegemite :D 

 

Fark it’s Marmite in the home of the Cup get it right.

Made by the not for profit Seventh Day Adventist’s.

B505927B-23CC-40DA-B9A3-F63DEA42D2B6.jpeg.56ac35c5a9733b4330377d0164a1023a.jpeg

 

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3 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

The only one posting with some sense of superiority and intent is you, across multiple threads with your numerous areas of expertise, sailing tactics, medical, seemingly a law degree now coupled with event management. 
 

im not seeing how that makes him different to most here

 

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Just now, Priscilla said:

Made by the not for profit TAX Seventh Day Adventist’s.

deer yar

fify

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Just now, phill_nz said:

deer yar

fify

My brother was for years  the key account manager for the Brethren here in the home of the Cup.

Two most go to destinations on arrival for the visiting head pooh bas was Maccas and K Rd.

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why am i so astoundedly not surprised

 

is gloriavale one of their specialist juniors affiliated branches

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8 minutes ago, phill_nz said:

why am i so astoundedly not surprised

 

is gloriavale one of their specialist juniors affiliated branches

Gloriavale is a taxpayer funded kiddy fiddlers paradise.

Hopeful Christian the founding father served a custodial sentence for sexual offences against minors that was marketed to the adoring flock as a period of isolation and reflection.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/103933602/notorious-gloriavale-leader-hopeful-christian

 

 

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this i know

the latest questions  are

is the current investigation into one of his spawn

and

who did that teenager learn it from

( most who abuse kids were once kids who were abused .. kiddyfiddlers 101 )

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4 minutes ago, phill_nz said:

this i know

the latest questions  are

is the current investigation into one of his spawn

and

who did that teenager learn it from

Sins of the father rings a pertinent bell or is a dynasty thing son like father.

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so you say he wasn't just a common or garden kiddy fiddler .. he like family games as well ?

 

i suppose at that level of sickness it.s just a small step to add incest as well

 

i also thought hopeful christian wasn't the only one of the original sect to get busted for kiddy fiddling

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