Salty Seacock

Emirates Team New Zealand.

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4 hours ago, Zaal said:

I can't see why the event that organize the Cup should pay for boat designing. ACE have to organize the event, the broadcast of the event, accomodations, tickets, safety rules against Covid, etc etc. It's up to the Defender and the CoR to choose the boat. It's obvious. They can sail on Optimist if they like, it's not ACE business.

You're not alone. The HVA doc lays out very clearly what ACE is supposed to deliver vs ETNZ. Nowhere in there is anything regarding the boat class, the design, etc. - in fact there is language that certainly points precisely to the contrary...

Quote

1.5 Costs
A party who has an obligation to do anything under this Agreement is to perform that obligation at its own cost, unless a term of this Agreement expressly provides otherwise.

You can read through section 6 to see what those specific obligations are. And, unlike what has been speculated all over the floor herein, they also don't include things like the ACWS, etc. that someone used to paint M&C as financially desperate due to a shrinking event (and shrinking paycheck for themselves) as motivation for "treachery".

So most of the Kiwis speculating around here have no clue what they are talking about - even though this septic tank has burst in their own backyard. They're just flailing around trying to make it smell better than it actually does.

It all comes down, it seems, to this $3M that ETNZ billed ACE for (according to GD's admission).

There is no "chicken and egg" scenario here. Just kiwi and frying pan.

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8 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

You can read through section 6 to see what those obligations are. 

Link please?

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5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Link please?

Knock yourself out...:D

6. ACE’s and ETNZ’s delivery obligations
(a) In consideration of the Hosts performing their obligations under this Agreement, ACE and ETNZ will, as applicable, provided always that COR and the Defender maintain their respective prerogatives and rights as per the COR Letter:
(i) be responsible for and will undertake:
DOC REF 24134112
Host Venue Agreement 36th America's Cup 10
(A) the management of the Events and Event associated activities (but only those Event associated activities that ACE has the right to manage);
(B) in connection with the management and delivery of the Events, the planning for:
(I) appropriate control measures to ensure that the Events are run within regulatory requirements;
(II) the management of the crowd, and the movement of the public, at the Venue; and
(III) the safety of the public at the Venue,
and will deliver the Events in accordance with such plans;
(C) all aspects of the on-water and on-land delivery of the racing for the Events, including, but not limited to the following aspects:
(I) competition and training for the Events;
(II) management of the Race Courses in coordination with the Regatta Director;
(III) management of the On-water Media Areas and On-water Spectator Areas;
(IV) all movement of Team Boats and media, spectators and other Event delivery related yachts, boats and vessels, including to and from the Race Courses (for competition and training), the On-water Media Areas and the On-water Spectator Areas (as applicable) and in the Race Access Corridors;
(V) proactively participating in the design and communication of the transport options and experience for spectators to and from the On-water Spectator Areas;
(VI) timely and comprehensive communications to the public regarding Race Courses and, in particular, communications relating to safe spectator options for spectators viewing from the water, including in relation to the On-water Spectator Areas;
(VII) on-water communication with the Team Boats, spectators and the Hosts and the Hosts’ operational partners; and
(VIII) management of any event related aircraft engaged by ACE;
(D) all aspects of the on-water and on-land delivery of the Events at the Venue, including bringing the Events to the Venue and for all other aspects relating to the staging and management of the Events; these include, but are not limited to the following aspects:
(I) racing and Event related entertainment at the Venue;
(II) crowd management (including crowd control and public safety) and security at the Venue;
DOC REF 24134112
Host Venue Agreement 36th America's Cup 11
(III) providing for safe access for the public, residents and business personnel within and throughout the Venue;
(IV) waste management (other than waste relating to the amenities to be provided by the Council in accordance with clause 2.8 of Schedule 4) and cleaning within the Venue;
(V) proactively participating in the design and communication of the transport options and experience for spectators to and from the Race Village;
(VI) management of any event related aircraft engaged by ACE; and
(VII) establishing and delivering a volunteer programme for the purposes of, and in relation to, the Events within the Venue. The parties agree that the focus of the volunteer programme established by ACE, and any volunteer programme established by the Hosts for the purposes of, and in relation to, the Events outside of the Venue (as provided for in Schedule 2 (Rights and Benefits)) are to welcome visitors from overseas and New Zealand to Auckland, New Zealand and the Events and inform visitors about Auckland, New Zealand and the Events and, as such, the parties agree to cooperate and assist each other to create a coordinated approach across the ACE volunteer programmes inside the Venue and the Host volunteer programme outside of the Venue;
(E) managing car parking at the Venue in accordance with the Venue Traffic Management Plan;
(F) liaising with the Challenger of Record and all of the other Challengers in relation to the Events; and
(G) delivering its obligations to the Challengers under the Protocol;
(ii) to use reasonable endeavours and use all practical measures available to prevent and minimise the impact of actions and activities that are likely to breach the Major Events Management Act 2007 (MEMA) and applicable bylaws of the Council and ACE and ETNZ acknowledge and agree that if they are only using reasonable endeavours such standard may not be sufficient for the purpose of the Minister making a recommendation, or the chief executive making an appointment of enforcements officers, under MEMA;
(iii) in addition to clause 6(a)(ii), ACE agrees to use reasonable endeavours to preserve its own rights and the rights of its commercial partners in relation to the Events, including by using reasonable endeavours to ensure that all partners, sponsors and relevant contractors of ACE have contractually agreed to preserve the rights of ACE and its commercial partners (for example, by using reasonable endeavours to ensure broadcast and other media agreements have provisions to prevent broadcasters and other media from filming or otherwise covering attempts of Ambush Marketing, and therefore preventing international distribution and exposure of other brands) and ACE and ETNZ acknowledge and agree that if they are only using reasonable endeavours such standard may not be sufficient for the purpose of the Minister making a recommendation or the chief executive making an appointment under MEMA;
(iv) to house, if practicable and at no cost to ACE, the Harbourmaster, New Zealand Police, New Zealand Customs and other of the Hosts’ operational partners within the Race Village for the Event Period;
DOC REF 24134112
Host Venue Agreement 36th America's Cup 12
(v) to promote, manage, organise and deliver the Events in a professional manner and in accordance with:
(A) the terms and conditions of this Agreement; and
(B) generally accepted principles of good practice applicable to event organisation and management and any other fields of expertise relating to management of the Events,
to enable the Events to gain the maximum possible exposure and attendance, and to maximise the opportunity created by the Events to attract visitors to New Zealand;
(vi) deliver the Events to a standard that a reasonable objective person would view as being no less than the corresponding events for the 35th America’s Cup. Notwithstanding the foregoing, such a standard includes there being:
(A) quality on the water race management under the control of the independent Regatta Director supported by suitably qualified race officials;
(B) subject to clause 6(b), a minimum of four participating Teams;
(C) efficient on the water course management and spectator control;
(D) a vibrant Race Village that caters for the reasonable needs of all sponsors and stakeholders of the Events with suitable public areas featuring race viewing screens, a suitable stage for entertainment, pre-race shows, after race presentations, food and beverage outlets and other amenities to a standard customary for such a public event space;
(E) local promotion of the Events; and
(F) a high standard Media Centre providing for the needs of international and local journalists and the Hosts’ media;
(vii) ensure and procure that general admission to the areas of the Venue that are not private areas is free of charge,
in each case in accordance with the terms of this Agreement.
(b) The Hosts agree that any decrease in the number of Teams competing in one or more of the Events, from the number of Teams registered to compete in the Events as at 31 March 2019, as a result of mechanical failure in, or damage to, a Team Boat will not constitute a breach of clause 6(a)(vi)(B).
(c) ACE acknowledges and agrees that, subject to clause 9.1(f)(v):
(i) the Hosts (and Panuku) are not responsible for applying for and obtaining any consents, licenses and permits (as applicable) in relation to the Events and the Venue;
(ii) ACE, or the relevant third party (not including the Hosts or Panuku), will apply for all consents, licenses and permits (as applicable) in relation to the Events and the Venue and will obtain all consents, licenses and permits (as applicable) before the delivery of the Events; and
DOC REF 24134112
Host Venue Agreement 36th America's Cup 13
(iii) such consents, licenses and permits may impose obligations and costs on ACE, or the relevant third party, which are not covered in this Agreement.
(d) ACE and ETNZ agree to comply with their respective obligations set out in Schedule 4 (Public Sector Delivery Obligations) to this Agreement.
(e) For the avoidance of doubt, all on water activities will be undertaken in full consultation with the Harbourmaster and New Zealand Police.

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11 minutes ago, Indio said:

and
(G) delivering its obligations to the Challengers under the Protocol;

Maybe this is the clause ETNZ is relying on, to bill that $3M for AC75-related Design? Looks very wide-open unless there are superceding conditions above it.

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16 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Maybe this is the clause ETNZ is relying on, to bill that $3M for AC75-related Design? Looks very wide-open unless there are superceding conditions above it.

Maybe. But you'd have to look at that single clause in a vacuum. In light of all the other language focusing the ACE responsibility on the event only (both in relation to ETNZ and LR) - that's a serious, serious stretch. And it would bring into question what LR then billed ACE for the same work - which would/should be its right as well, right? For example, look at 4.5(c).

Another possible angle here is the loss of the ACWS events - and related revenue - for LR. Did they just write all that off and say "no big deal"?

Again, impossible to know for sure - but this $3M charge smells to high heaven right now...obviously.

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15 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Maybe this is the clause ETNZ is relying on, to bill that $3M for AC75-related Design? 

The $3-mil payment is a red-herring introduced by the PoS Mayo&Calder as a "re-classified loan to ETNZ" raather than the payment for services rendered.

You'll recall that M&C cited "public safety" in their attempt to claim ex post facto whistleblower status, which just happens to be one of 3 qualifications to be satisfied for protected disclosure to be successfully claimed.

ETNZ are partially at fault - for hiring two con artists who clearly over-promised and have failed to deliver...

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20 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Maybe this is the clause ETNZ is relying on, to bill that $3M for AC75-related Design? Looks very wide-open unless there are superceding conditions above it.

Here’s one superceding clause:

 

ACE’s and ETNZ’s delivery obligations
(a) In consideration of the Hosts performing their obligations under this Agreement, ACE and ETNZ will, as applicable, provided always that COR and the Defender maintain their respective prerogatives and rights as per the COR Letter:
(i) be responsible for and will undertake:

(etc)

So I guess it’s possible there is disagreement over to who, between ACE and ETNZ, that expense was ‘applicable.’ 

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6 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Another possible angle here is the loss of the ACWS events - and related revenue - for LR. Did they just write all that off and say "no big deal"?

A similar argument may be being made, over the Portsmouth Event that ETNZ (ACE?) tried to run. 

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13 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

A similar argument may be being made, over the Portsmouth Event that ETNZ (ACE?) tried to run. 

Exactly. Which, again, brings in this Hungarian Hushpuppi "scam" of more than $1M (roughly half that $3M).

Again, according to 4.5(c) of this agreement - if money is going to be flowing one way or the other in relation to the event, it's supposed to flow FROM ETNZ TO ACE, not the other way around.

And on this point from Clownwell's article:

Quote

One of the issues to be addressed and verified in the audit is cost-recovery by Team New Zealand against the Event - primarily for selection of the America's Cup Class and development of the AC75 class rule. However, for that assessment, salary and remuneration information has probably been disclosed.

Where is that particular (and obviously very fundamental) obligation for ACE specified in the HVA? And where is the CoR's "cost recovery" for the same work if that's what was intended?

This report is going to be very interesting.

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5 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Again, according to 4.5(c) of this agreement - if money is going to be flowing one way or the other in relation to the event, it's supposed to flow FROM ETNZ TO ACE, not the other way around.

Really? Missed that part.

AC.com released this replay today, it has me wondering (semi-related) did we ever see who will be producing the new LiveLine? It was excellent.

 

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20 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Really? Missed that part.

AC.com released this replay today, it has me wondering (semi-related) did we ever see who will be producing the new LiveLine? It was excellent.

 

Jobson says ‘That graphic looks like a page out of my high school Physics book.” :) 

A59554F7-FA62-44E9-8E90-824CBBDCECDB.thumb.png.2558d9ab52a11c2220f513f61a7b6708.png

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3 minutes ago, Hawke said:

ACE Ltd.  Oh my oh my....the same shareholders as ETNZ.  Who would've thought!

 

Yep, two of the ETNZ board moved to ACE, replaced on the ETNZ board by GD and (?) Kevin S. And with GD as CEO of both.

Todd Niall wrote in a recent article that there’s a possibility ACE will go under MBIE after the review. 

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10 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Yep, two of the ETNZ board moved to ACE, replaced on the ETNZ board by GD and (?) Kevin S. And with GD as CEO of both.

Todd Niall wrote in a recent article that there’s a possibility ACE will go under MBIE after the review. 

Niall knows shit. MBIE has no business running a yacht regatta. The only entity entitled to take over under the HVA is Auckland Council - and that's not going to happen any time soon, at least not without AC36 disappearing over the horizon to greener waters..

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3 minutes ago, Hawke said:

Only if it is in the terms of the contract between MBIE and ACE.  

Niall described how that actually is in the contract.

I doubt we’ll see it happen but apparently it’s a long-stretch possibility. In his recent interview, Goff explained why it is in both the city and the govt’s interests to make sure the Event is run properly, suggesting that budget hits to ACE from ETNZ is a big concern for them. 

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6 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Niall described how that actually is in the contract.

I doubt we’ll see it happen but apparently it’s a long-stretch possibility. In his recent interview, Goff explained why it is in both the city and the govt’s interests to make sure the Event is run properly, suggesting that budget hits to ACE from ETNZ is a big concern for them. 

Yeah - these goofballs have obviously not read the contract.

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^ I haven’t seen anyone, even the NZ Herald lawyer yesterday, arguing to release the salary data ETNZ’s lawyer protested so strongly about, claiming it would be an ‘on the water competitors advantage’ in this and subsequent Cups. 

GD and his ETNZ CFO should recuse themselves from things-ACA and focus on ETNZ instead. They’d be much happier that way :) 
 

Way back when, Clean did an interview with GD which was actually very good. But in one part of it GD said he was ‘counting toilet seats’ for the event and it made me wonder why. Surely he has better things to do? 

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6 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

^ I haven’t seen anyone, even the NZ Herald lawyer yesterday, arguing to release the salary data ETNZ’s lawyer protested so strongly about, claiming it would be an ‘on the water competitors advantage’ in this and subsequent Cups. 

GD and his ETNZ CFO should recuse themselves from things-ACA and focus on ETNZ instead. They’d be much happier that way :) 
 

 

I suspect one of the main drivers here is the inability for ACE to find sufficient sponsors/broadcast deals for this event. Remember, they were supposed to cover everything beyond that $37M ($40M-ENTZ's "fees") with money they brought in through these kinds of deals. I doubt they've been able to do that - especially in today's environment - and then panic set in all round. Money wasn't coming in, "loans" couldn't get repaid, events needed to shrink, etc.

That free-to-air broadcast model seems particularly short-sighted right now, eh?

What a #CLOWNSHOW.

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10 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

I suspect one of the main drivers here is the inability for ACE to find sufficient sponsors/broadcast deals for this event. Remember, they were supposed to cover everything beyond that $37M ($40M-ENTZ's "fees") with money they brought in through these kinds of deals. I doubt they've been able to do that - especially in today's environment - and then panic set in all round. Money wasn't coming in, "loans" couldn't get repaid, events needed to shrink, etc.

That free-to-air broadcast model seems particularly short-sighted right now, eh?

What a #CLOWNSHOW.

I suspect budget shortfalls too, or else ETNZ would not have billed $3M to (basically treated as their in-house) budgets at ACE (or direct from MBIE?) instead of simply billing ETNZ-employee work to ETNZ. Problems on both floors? It would explain a lot.

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Maybe ETNZ should just refund the $3M to MBIE and agree it as a ‘misinterpretation’? Could save a boatload of lawyers fees! 

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This is why I think Gladwell is such a biased/useless clown when it comes to covering the AC...

He writes (rightly so) about how unsafe these AC75s are and specifically brings up the issue of "sky jumps" (what I've been pointing out since Te Ahmed quite literally hit the water - over and over and over and over again).

Here is the pic he uses in his poorly written article to illustrate the "sky jump"...

yysw286172.jpg

 

And here is what he says about it...

Quote

The safety can't be sorted out a week or so ahead of the start of the Prada Cup. We do know that two AC75's have performed "Sky jumps" leaving both leaving the water completely in moderate winds - with one capsizing.

Yo - Clownwell! It was your beloved Emiratis' Te Ahmed that first invented the "sky-jump-cum-nosedive"!!!! And it was your beloved Emiratis' Te Ahmed that was the first and only AC75 to capsize!!! You have/took the freakin' photos yourself!!!

Are you really that afraid of your Kiwi readers? Trust me - they're toddlers. All screech and no flight.

PS - SpinKahu, you clearly have no idea what you're reading and I'm not going to explain it to you.

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5 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Pretty good article.

Calm down, you are losing your grip.

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9 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

This is why I think Gladwell is such a biased/useless clown when it comes to covering the AC...

He writes (rightly so) about how unsafe these AC75s are and specifically brings up the issue of "sky jumps" (what I've been pointing out since Te Ahmed quite literally hit the water - over and over and over and over again).

Here is the pic he uses in his poorly written article to illustrate the "sky jump"...

yysw286172.jpg

 

And here is what he says about it...

Yo - Clownwell! It was your beloved Emiratis' Te Ahmed that first invented the "sky-jump-cum-nosedive"!!!! And it was your beloved Emiratis' Te Ahmed that was the first and only AC&% to capsize. You have/took the freakin' photos yourself!!!

Are you really that afraid of your Kiwi readers? Trust me - they're toddlers. All screech and no flight.

PS - SpinKahu, you clearly have no idea what you're reading and I'm not going to explain it to you.

I thought RG made some reasonable arguments in that article for why condensing the event may be problematic for the PRO (Murray) and for testing the new LiveLine (whatever that’s supposed to be) but he (a hardcore ETNZ guy) tried to imply that if ACE can’t deliver the goods then it’s ACE’s problem and nobody else’s. That is not what Goff said about the review, and the withholding of MBIE funds until it gets sorted.

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5 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Calm down, you are losing your grip.

Let me put it this way - the part talking about the current brouhaha was pretty good as I said - then I came back round and got to the last part. And it was a bit much to take. Also, dude seriously needs an editor if he's going to get paid for that crap.

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5 minutes ago, Hawke said:

just transfer it back to ACE from ETNZ! 

I assume you got that backwards? Anyway..

In the response letter from ETNZ they addressed at length the subject of safety and security. The Harbormaster is apparently calling for measures that might need an additional $3M... 

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3 minutes ago, CaptainGigi said:

Smackdaddy wrote: "This is why I think Gladwell is such a biased/useless clown when it comes to covering the AC...."

Tsk, tsk. An ad hominem attack. No need for that. Just tell 'im where he could improve in his writing...like I did after reading his article: "Tighten it up. It's way, way too long."

I see your point CG.

Mr. Gladwell, please stop writing like a myopic clown.

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1 minute ago, smackdaddy said:

Mr. Gladwell, please stop being a clown.

:D 

I like the guy but damn he uses a lot of commas, usually in the wrong places! :)

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

:D 

I like the guy but damn he uses a lot of commas, usually in the wrong places! :)

Bloody good pics, though.

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8 minutes ago, CaptainGigi said:

I recall some a few Kiwis set me straight some years back awhile ago on the difference in meaning well-placed commas can give an expression. Some things you don't forget remember.

The prevalent use of the word ‘whilst’ among Kiwi writers is a cute wonderment too. You never comma ever hear that word used in the US. :D

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11 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Bloody good pics, though.

That I'll give you.

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12 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

:D 

I like the guy but damn he uses a lot of commas, usually in the wrong places! :)

A yank lecturing on punctuation in English composition??

YCMTSU.jpg.1ff8d9b04c616c973f10ae0d81c517f8.jpg

 

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11 minutes ago, CaptainGigi said:

And he gave credit to the photos, if I recall correctly.

He did indeed. It was just his selection and wording that was completely lame and disingenuous.

Gotta keep the "sources" happy I suppose - whilst dropping typos and commas all over like a kiwi in the grass. Heh.

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A good AC memory of mine was hearing that TE was flying up to Anacortes on the eve of DogZilla’s launch up there. Insisted on meeting him at SeaTac, he said yes, we drove together up there from Seattle. Got to go inside the base (no photos!) and there was a fun event at the Anacortes YC later that night, where he got up on stage and commandeered  the guitar player’s git for a set. Fun stuff.

I returned the following day, rented a small plane and took 3 gazzillion photos of DZ’s maiden voyage through the San Juan Islands, brilliant fun! 

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23 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The prevalent use of the word ‘whilst’ among Kiwi writers is a cute wonderment too. You never comma ever hear that word used in the US. :D

What? They don't use it in America - just like correct tense, proper verbs and past participles?

That's bad. Really, really bad.

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5 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

What? They don't use it in America - just like correct tense, proper verbs and past participles?

That's bad. Really, really bad.

Irregards to you too :)

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3 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Todd Niall wrote in a recent article that there’s a possibility ACE will go under MBIE after the review.  

3 hours ago, Hawke said:

Only if it is in the terms of the contract between MBIE and ACE. 

That's not even close!! The only party to the HVA who can exercise and enforce the right to take over running AC36 and related events are the Hosts: Auckland City.

(c) If the parties cannot agree a resolution, including a timeframe for effecting such resolution, within Business Days of meeting to discuss the Escalation Notice, without prejudice to any other rights under this Agreement, the Hosts will have the right (but not the obligation) to, on notice to ACE:
(i) if the event is one identified in clause 19(a)(i), clause 19(a)(ii) or clause 19(a)(iii), terminate this Agreement in accordance with clause 22.1;
(ii) exercise the rights held by ACE to run the Events;
(iii) withhold any further Event Investments due and payable to ACE; and/or
(iv) require that ACE repay to the Hosts the amount of the Event Investment already paid to ACE at the time of giving the Escalation Notice and not yet spent by ACE.
(d) ACE confirms that:
(i) on receipt of the notice referred to in clause 19(c) above, it will assign to the Hosts all of the rights held by it to run the Events
; and
(ii) such an assignment will not breach the Protocol or any other agreement in relation to the Events.

 

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5 minutes ago, Indio said:

That's not even close!! The only party to the HVA who can exercise and enforce the right to take over running AC36 and related events are the Hosts: Auckland City.

(c) If the parties cannot agree a resolution, including a timeframe for effecting such resolution, within Business Days of meeting to discuss the Escalation Notice, without prejudice to any other rights under this Agreement, the Hosts will have the right (but not the obligation) to, on notice to ACE:
(i) if the event is one identified in clause 19(a)(i), clause 19(a)(ii) or clause 19(a)(iii), terminate this Agreement in accordance with clause 22.1;
(ii) exercise the rights held by ACE to run the Events;
(iii) withhold any further Event Investments due and payable to ACE; and/or
(iv) require that ACE repay to the Hosts the amount of the Event Investment already paid to ACE at the time of giving the Escalation Notice and not yet spent by ACE.
(d) ACE confirms that:
(i) on receipt of the notice referred to in clause 19(c) above, it will assign to the Hosts all of the rights held by it to run the Events
; and
(ii) such an assignment will not breach the Protocol or any other agreement in relation to the Events.

 

Are the hosts the MBIE (who paid the Hosting Fee) or Auckland City?

And does it even matter much which it is? 

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3 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Are the hosts the MBIE or Auckland City?

And does it even matter much which it is? 

Not really. And I would bet that the clauses above are what's being discussed right now behind closed doors - especially with M&C now out of ACE and working with MBIE/et.al.

As I said previously, this is a sinking ship and panic is setting in.

368023269_ScreenShot2020-07-06at10_45_19PM.thumb.png.2607bc6e0242af24734e52fae356140d.png

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I guess there’s a chance M&C (who ran the VOR events with success) could actually run AC36 for MBIE/Auckland, then? 
 

Am not getting why anyone would object to that unless ETNZ wants the authority to siphon public money out of ACE. Why would that necessary to ETNZ when GD is such a good ETNZ fundraiser? 

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Who knows Sting? I suppose we'll find out soon enough. But considering all the pieces of this puzzle we've seen thus far it sure looks like a possible scenario. And GD seems to be right in the middle of the dumpster.

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16 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

I guess there’s a chance M&C (who ran the VOR events with success) could actually run AC36 for MBIE/Auckland, then? 
 

Am not getting why anyone would object to that unless ETNZ wants the authority to siphon public money out of ACE. Why would that necessary to ETNZ when GD is such a good ETNZ fundraiser? 

The Pinot must be cutting in round about now...right on schedule!

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

The prevalent use of the word ‘whilst’ among Kiwi writers is a cute wonderment too. You never comma ever hear that word used in the US. :D

 

1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

What? They don't use it in America - just like correct tense, proper verbs and past participles?

That's bad. Really, really bad.

Bravo!

And you haven't even mentioned their inability to use all the vowels e.g. Colour vs. Color, the substituion of z for s in too many instances, and rearranging "re" to "er"...........

So, whilst I will continue to have the Centre Caps on my Aluminium Wheels Anodised in a Gunmetal colour; no Sesame Street educated baffoon, will be sought for comment or advice. :P

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6 minutes ago, Boink said:

 

Bravo!

And you haven't even mentioned their inability to use all the vowels e.g. Colour vs. Color, the substituion of z for s in too many instances, and rearranging "re" to "er"...........

So, whilst I will continue to have the Centre Caps on my Aluminium Wheels Anodised in a Gunmetal colour; no Sesame Street educated baffoon, will be sought for comment or advice. :P

And don't even get me started on their pronunciation. What a nightmare! ;-)

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17 minutes ago, Hawke said:

Bollocks!!  Just do a simple exercise on paper and line up one side vs the other!  I know which team I'd have my money on!

Team ETNZ/ACE

Grant Dalton ( CEO - pitbull street fighter)
Greg Horton (Commercial Lawyer)
Sir Stephen Tindall GNZM (2nd on NZ's Richest List)
Kevin Shoebridge (8 America's Cup involvement)
Matteo de Nora CNZOM (Swiss-Italian hybrid - family owns half of Italy)
Bob Field (ex Toyota NZ CEO)
Tina Symmans (Ex Senior Manager Telecom - Director on heaps of big boards)
Davey Salmon (Commercial Litigator)
Bell Gully (Law Firm)

vs

MBIE/Auckland City Council

MBIE (ummm some bureaucrats)
Auckland CC (ummm some more bureaucrats)
Beattie Varley (who?  forensic accountants ex Government employees)
Mayo and Calder + Michael Choy (Event Managers and an inexperienced accountant)
NZ Herald (Govt. funded struggling rag)


 

Like bringing a box cutter to a gun fight. 

 

Edited by Sailbydate
Demo

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3 minutes ago, Hawke said:

How so?

It was a dock with a gate, an existing coffee shop and 6 Volvo cars parked nearby.

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10 minutes ago, CaptainGigi said:

Hawke: I can't speak to their history with the VOR, but since the Plan is (publicly) available, and seems to have been acceptable to those concerned up to this point in time, albeit with expected revisions to the Draft, it seems anyone could run the AC with it in hand, but I don't know about such things, do I, else I'd be 'down under' instead of 'up top,' keying this.

It now comes down to 'following the money' and finding sponsors with deep pockets, yes?

_________

Up close, rats are undeniably cute, but if you want to catch a rat, get a cat. —Old Adage

Up close, rats are undeniably cute. • © Lina Viberg + EyeEmEyeEm + Getty Images.jpg

To get rid of rats, get a cat. • © Marvin Borgmann + EyeEmEyeEm+ Getty Images.jpg

And seagulls

 

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1 hour ago, Hawke said:

But unlikely to happen.  Can you honestly see Auckland City Council running the Event?  The only option they would have is to retain Mayo and Calder and quite frankly what I've read about that organisation and their employees that wouldn't happen.

It won't happen for a couple of very good reasons:

Without Dalts, there'll be no Emirates. Without Emirates, the government and Auckland Council will need to stump up with more money to fill the big Emirates hole - in an election year?

Without Dalts, I can see RNZYS forced to defend AC36 in another part of the world...

BUT as you quite rightly point out, none of the above will happen. MBIE will exonerate ACE and ETNZ, Mayo&Calder will still be sacked from ACE and will be liable for the missing funds, they'll be forced to return all information and documents in their possession which they illegally leaked to third parties including the media, and they will skulk off into the night last, seen talking to no-one in particular under the Newmarket bridge

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59 minutes ago, Hawke said:

What's more if Mayo and Calder have had all that experience with the VOR in Auckland.....how did issues arise?  Seems odd to me.

Covid19. 

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53 minutes ago, Indio said:

It won't happen for a couple of very good reasons:

Without Dalts, there'll be no Emirates. Without Emirates, the government and Auckland Council will need to stump up with more money to fill the big Emirates hole - in an election year?

Without Dalts, I can see RNZYS forced to defend AC36 in another part of the world...

BUT as you quite rightly point out, none of the above will happen. MBIE will exonerate ACE and ETNZ, Mayo&Calder will still be sacked from ACE and will be liable for the missing funds, they'll be forced to return all information and documents in their possession which they illegally leaked to third parties including the media, and they will skulk off into the night last, seen talking to no-one in particular under the Newmarket bridge

Melbourne has gone into another Covid 19 6 week lock down if Auckland has to ever heaven forbid  follow in the near future AC 36 will not happen plain and simple.

Dalton and the Poisoned Chalice are irrelevant public welfare is where the focus should lay.

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31 minutes ago, Hawke said:

That's going to be the universal excuse for the failure to deliver anything for a while to come.  Regardless if it is true or not!

Not necessarily an excuse. There's no doubt that COVID-19 resulted in the cancellation of the Italian and Portsmouth ACWS events and imposed a great deal of inconvenience to the Challengers in restricting what they can do. For ACE, Mayo&Calder were specifically charged with securing sponsors and licensing to top up the needed funding for the event, including broadcasting agreements. I suspect they have not been able to deliver any significant sponsors and additional funding in these uncertain times in the middle of a world-wide pandemic, with big corporates tightening their belts as economies contract. Ferwer ACWS events would have made the broadcast deal a tough sell...

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18 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Melbourne has gone into another Covid 19 6 week lock down if Auckland has to ever heaven forbid  follow in the near future AC 36 will not happen plain and simple.

Dalton and the Poisoned Chalice are irrelevant public welfare is where the focus should lay.

I don't know why you keep making yourself miserable hanging around here :). Most of us do not give a fuck about your whining...really!!

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I'm no expert but I think their maybe "structural" issues in the way that ACE was only billed 3m for 6m worth of work..... Particularly when the CEO is on both sides of the deal.

I think that is covered here https://comcom.govt.nz/news-and-media/feature-articles/taking-action-against-price-fixing-accountants#:~:text=With price fixing continuing to,to spot anti-competitive conduct.&text=Price fixing is a form,significant penalties and banning orders.

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5 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

And don't even get me started on their pronunciation. What a nightmare! ;-)

Uh, PRETTY sure that Americans invented English, the same English your whole country is using, FOR FREE, so all's y'all can shut right up.

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2 hours ago, Indio said:

 

Without Dalts, I can see RNZYS forced to defend AC36 in another part of the world...

I was wondering when “it’s all a Bertelli plot to bring the AC to Cagliari” would come up :D 

 

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9 minutes ago, RMac said:

Uh, PRETTY sure that Americans invented English, the same English your whole country is using, FOR FREE, so all's y'all can shut right up.

 

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5 hours ago, Hawke said:

For the life of me I can't understand .....  Odd.

I can't think of any action.....  

This is obvious. Your 300 posts of cut-paste legal analysis and definitive proclamations - leading to...this.

You're learning.

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Excerpt from

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/122065522/americas-cup-organisers-need-to-win-back-the-publics-trust-by-making-changes-at-the-top

The central and most serious allegation is that Team NZ has effectively siphoned off funds meant for the event into its own coffers.

Team NZ strongly deny any accusations that public funds have been misappropriated. Dalton contends this money, reportedly in the realm of $3m, is to reimburse the syndicate for work its staff have done for the event, and has appeared as part of its regular reporting to MBIE for more than a year. 

That may well be the case. But the arrangement in the first instance appears to have been one agreed upon between Grant Dalton and Grant Dalton.

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43 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The central and most serious allegation is that Team NZ has effectively siphoned off funds meant for the event into its own coffers.

Team NZ strongly deny any accusations that public funds have been misappropriated. Dalton contends this money, reportedly in the realm of $3m, is to reimburse the syndicate for work its staff have done for the event, and has appeared as part of its regular reporting to MBIE for more than a year. 

That may well be the case. But the arrangement in the first instance appears to have been one agreed upon between Grant Dalton and Grant Dalton.

This gets back to what I mentioned earlier as the crux of the problem: If ETNZ pulled money out of ACE - for whatever reason - and we know that ACE has been primarily funded by MBIE to date via that hosting fee (public money) - what other money has come into ACE via private partnerships/sponsorships that is separate and apart from that fee? Remember the language in the HVA regarding ETNZ's financial responsibility TO ACE for any shortfalls.

This brings up the issues of the purported "loans", ACE's likely difficulty in finding more sponsorship (i,e, - non-public) money as it was obligated to do, etc. How much non-public money did/does ACE really have? And did ACE also pay the CoR for that same services if this work was tied to the Class design, protocol, etc.?

It doesn't look good.

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@Hawke

lawyer, scientist, tactician and nothing to see here move on please team apologist. 
 

which hat do you have on today? 

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Blah blah blah. The media loves to tell the public what they should be thinking and what they should be doing. As I said, the media have now all but given up on the release of the final report and now turned their attention to what it looks like for GD to be overseeing both entities. Who gives a crap? No one cared about it before this came along. As for “siphoned money” surely if you do the work, you get paid to do the work. That seems to be what’s happened. If it’s always been part of reporting to MBIE there is no issue. But again, the media hatchet job is in full swing “the public shouldn’t be thinking it’s okay” because we all have to be told how to think right? Cos we can’t do it for ourselves. What it looks like is irrelevant. Dalton is responsible, together with LR for holding America’s Cup 2021. He is also tasked with defending the cup at the same time. 

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34 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

...because we all have to be told how to think right? Cos we can’t do it for ourselves....

Says "Forourselves" - who spends all his time telling people here how to think - even in the face of countless facts that clearly contradict his drivel.

Dude clearly needs a bustle.

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My 2 cents worth on the AC so called scandal.... (for anyone interested). 

I think the 2 x guys employed to run ACE, started running into trouble more than a year ago when the amount of challengers failed to materialise and the budgets started to shrink and not be the lucrative huge event that was once envisaged….... These guys also have a questionable track record and started to see the event failing to reach the numbers expected and that they were seemingly on (yet another) hiding to nothing….. 
 
Grant Dalton is the CEO of both entities namely to control and firstly put ETNZ in the "best possible position" to defend the cup, but also (secondly) to make sure the event is properly handled and something we, as Kiwis can be proud of. I think that the 2 guys (ACE) and Grant started to have difficult meetings over budgets early on and I think the R+D payment of $ 6m owed to ETNZ (for the class rule, R + D and setting up the event in the early stages) became a sticking point….. Eventually Grant as CEO forced the payment of $ 3million ACE to ETNZ. (BTW - This is not the scammed payment that went missing…... And it was never a loan despite the spin they tried to put on it).
 
All the while, the disgruntled event organisers had been going behind Grants back and reporting to MBIE and others?? what they assumed to be the "goings on/decisions" that they did not agree to or upset about and indeed exaggerated and presented as fact things that were not true to build a case lets say….... Everyone who knows Grant, knows loyalty is his absolute No1 requirement. By doing what they did, they went out on a limb against him. Bad move….... 
 
During this period, it sounds like a large payment was made from ACE to the TV production company that turned out to be a scam of sorts. I am sure details will be presented to show this in due course. Of course it can be argued that the scam was a set up/inside job, but I don't think so. Time will tell, but I think it has been coincidental, a side issue and not what the real issue is all about. Other than I can imagine a few words were spoken at the time it happened that may have hurt a few egos around the place lets say…..
 
Of course ETNZ does not want very commercially/sporting sensitive information about it's inner workings/funding publicly released - Rightly so. You can argue it's government money, but the government entered into an agreement where ETNZ and ACT ran the event without any control/input as to the finer detail of expenditure allocations. Of course they have the right to demand clarity to show no frauds have been committed with Government money and the Government has every right to investigate and see this for themselves. However the contents of any investigative report has to remain confidential from the public to protect the team going forward. This is easy to understand. All that needs to be published is a summary of facts.
 
I think these ACE guys got stuck on a road to nowhere that they didn’t have control over and subsequently have been caught out undermining ETNZ and the ACE by trying to present themselves/save themselves in a good light (whistleblowers) and try and show Grant Dalton up as the bad guy…... I think it's going to backfire on them of course. However the surrounding media and hype isn’t doing the AC event of ETNZ any good. At the end of the day though, Its a distraction only and yet another Americas cup story to go in the books. They will move on……. It wont affect much, apart from help sell a few more newspapers…..
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Perhaps separating the work from the defence was the original intent, but Given Emirates Team NZ is an extension of the original Team NZ who have held two defences and hosted 2 events in the past, there may have been ETNZ personnel who were qualified and inexperienced enough to carry out such work. And given the Covid environment, and closed borders, Dalton may have felt instead of trying to get internationals through the borders, it was easier and quicker to just use his own personnel. 

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Dalton as CEO - like any other CEO - reports to a Board in ACE and in ETNZ who have a legal fiduciary duty to ensure that standard corporate governance and operating procedures are respected and complied with. Payments by ACE to ETNZ for services rendered have appeared as standard expense items in the regular reports prepared and submitted by ACE since 2018 to the appropriate partners and entities entitled to the reports under the HVA agreement - otherwise, progress payments from MBIE would not be made! That the ACE Board did not raise any concerns is a matter likely to have already been addressed and resolved under the Companies Act. Bottom line is the buck stops at the Board.

As for the services for which ETNZ were paid the discounted rate of $3-mil, it is perfectly legitimate for ETNZ design resources and personnel involved in the design of the new AC75 to be charged to the event managing entity - ACE. All entry fees are paid to ACE, not to ETNZ as representatives of RNZYS. The design and free-issue components for the AC75 are defined in the Class Rule, and do not belong to ETNZ - the were contractors to ACE, and they deserve to be paid..

Mayo&Calder instigated this whole mess because they failed to deliver on their overly-optimistic hyperbolic presentations which won them the event management gig.

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59 minutes ago, Hawke said:

All of them and some more to come.

homer simpson hat GIF

 

Aww you actually believe it, how cute. 

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1 hour ago, waterborne said:

My 2 cents worth on the AC so called scandal.... (for anyone interested). 

Great post, largely agree.

Money is tight.

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Great post, largely agree.

Money is tight.

Yes definitely agree that that is the best educated guess as to what has gone on. We should have the answer soon. 

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2 hours ago, Indio said:

As for the services for which ETNZ were paid the discounted rate of $3-mil, it is perfectly legitimate for ETNZ design resources and personnel involved in the design of the new AC75 to be charged to the event managing entity - ACE. All entry fees are paid to ACE, not to ETNZ as representatives of RNZYS. The design and free-issue components for the AC75 are defined in the Class Rule, and do not belong to ETNZ - the were contractors to ACE, and they deserve to be paid..

That’s where the problem appears to be. GD strongly believes he did nothing wrong and is extremely pissed that anyone disputes his decision but here’s the thing: It is GD agreeing with GD, since under the current structure there is nobody to argue for and protect the ACE budget for ‘running the event’ and producing the deliverables as spelled out in the HVA. GD may have put ETNZ priorities above ACE’s priorities, without any questioning until the ‘SPIES!’ (forensic accountants) called him on it. Now he’s pissed off, and may even have fired the wrong people over it. 
 

Again, why doesn’t he step out, let someone else run ACE? He’s far better experienced at running ETNZ instead of being in a compromised and so therefore easily-questioned position when trying to run both. 

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I can’t understand all of this arguments and talking while the situation is so clear: ACE does not have to pay for the boat design. ACE’s job is organize a sport event. Defender and COR job is design the boat and write the Protocol, than sail the boat against the challengers. Very different jobs. There would be a Cup event to organize even if Defender and CoR decided to sail on Lasers. Dan Bernasconi make decisions about the hull shape and foils, not about what type of paper to use for printing the VIP invitations. 

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7 minutes ago, Zaal said:

I can’t understand all of this arguments and talking while the situation is so clear: ACE does not have to pay for the boat design. ACE’s job is organize a sport event. Defender and COR job is design the boat and write the Protocol, than sail the boat against the challengers. Very different jobs. There would be a Cup event to organize even if Defender and CoR decided to sail on Lasers. Dan Bernasconi make decisions about the hull shape and foils, not about what type of paper to use for printing the VIP invitations. 

ACE doesn’t have to pay for ETNZs boat design, but they may have to pay for parts and/ or designs available to all teams. ETNZ has to sail their boat against the challengers. There is a class rule to write and supplied parts and therefor, work that ETNZ has to undertake in order for all teams to be able to compete, therefor for the event to go ahead.

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^^^How much did LR get for that same work? Who paid them?

Again, just read the HVA. This stuff is not part of that agreement. Hence the "loan" - that was apparently hidden by the manipulated "financial dashboards" and then simply came due when the whistle blew.

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24 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

ACE doesn’t have to pay for ETNZs boat design, but they may have to pay for parts and/ or designs available to all teams. ETNZ has to sail their boat against the challengers. There is a class rule to write and supplied parts and therefor, work that ETNZ has to undertake in order for all teams to be able to compete, therefor for the event to go ahead.

This could be a follow on from LR fucking up the arms. It was initially their job, presumably at their cost. Or at least an agreement between the teams to jointly fund it.

TNZ stepped in and did the work to keep things moving along. This was never in the plan and it is likely not covered by the contract with ACE. Instead of wasting time getting it sorted properly, GD put one hat on and asked ACE to pay. He then put his other hat on and agreed. A product of time pressures and too much control in one person's hands.

Of course I could be talking shit like Hawke does, but it makes more sense than he does.

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Thanks to all you crazy ass America's Cup followers, I must say this is helping with my sheltering in place in my little island home.  Keeps me out of the tavern as me mum used to say.  Good on ya'll, keep it up please.

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1 hour ago, Hawke said:

I'd rather he stayed as CEO of both.  Remember what happened when he had more time on his hands in San Francisco - on and off the water.  B)  Look on the bright side we definitely know he is not training to be a grinder!

:)

GD has said on a time or two back-when that he sometimes browsed these threads, he even mentioned Stingray laughingly on at least two occasions, his main point was that he sometimes saw good ideas among the rest of the bullshit. And so again, GD if you see this? 
 

Please consider getting out of the ACE management fiasco, it will benefit everyone including yourself and your team. It may help your sponsorship recruiting efforts too, the looks of the current f’up, rightly or wrongly, can only be improved that way. You are already an AC legend. 

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3 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

:)

GD has said on a time or two back-when that he sometimes browsed these threads, he even mentioned Stingray laughingly on at least two occasions, his main point was that he sometimes saw good ideas among the rest of the bullshit. And so again, GD if you see this? 
 

Please consider getting out of the ACE management fiasco, it will benefit everyone including yourself and your team. It may help your sponsorship recruiting efforts too, the looks of the current f’up, rightly or wrongly, can only be improved that way. You are already an AC legend. 

Out of all the posters on SA - you are the only one I've seen/heard quoted several times in the actual sailing media...at least when people are talking seriously and not making fun of Clean.

GD should listen to you. He won't look good in stripes.

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7 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

at least when people are talking seriously and not making fun of Clean.

:D

Clean is sharper than most all of us, sailing-media-wise, but yes his perspective can be a touch too close to the ground being as how personable he is. 
 

This ACE thing has the potential to be seriously problematic especially sponsorship-wise, when viewed from ‘on-high.’ The ‘structure’ mentioned in several quotes by parties like MBIE suggest too that a high-level change would be good for everyone. 

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Blowing my own horn here but it was by far the most-laughed at comment posted during TE’s Sailing Illustrated show earlier today. Made in jest, obviously 

155C3CEC-BB4D-4076-B906-4E1915BA379B.thumb.jpeg.2a8f29490c968d067c2d87c10315c516.jpeg

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17 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

:D

Clean is sharper than most all of us, sailing-media-wise, but yes his perspective can be a touch too close to the ground being as how personable he is. 
 

This ACE thing has the potential to be seriously problematic especially sponsorship-wise, when viewed from ‘on-high.’ The ‘structure’ mentioned in several quotes by parties like MBIE suggest too that a high-level change would be good for everyone. 

Clean's a dork. But that's not relevant.

Honestly, I think this was a blessing for potential sponsors. Imagine calculating the ROI on AC36 in today's world. You're the CMO of virtually any organization (save The Hungarian National Bank) - trying to figure out if it's worth 7-9 figures to plaster your name all over. Things already look incredibly shaky, simply from the numbers in the original Economic Assessment. Yet - it's the "Auld Mug" and your CEO (and a shareholder or two) is passionate. Of course, they still want ROI or your head.

Well, that calculus is now done. AC36 is utterly dead commercially - both as an event and in terms of broadcast/brand exposure. No one cares about the AC in today's world, except for those few of us who like sailing. But now, beyond that, it's tarnished - which usually wipes off onto a brand. The image as "the pinnacle of sailing" that "the pinnacle of business" want to aspirationally align with is just gone.

This dumpster fire was just the icing on that crapcake. No one except McDonalds, the Emiratis, and maybe the Sinaloa Cartel or Big Tobacco will touch this thing. It's poison now.

MBIE should take over the event, get its money back from Ahmed and the boys, get the thing over with, and focus on rebuilding the NZ brand.

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