Salty Seacock

Emirates Team New Zealand.

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Good lord that boat is slow. But they are impressed at how "stable" it is. Heh.

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11 hours ago, RMac said:

Uhhh... you know that's how you probably sound to a lot of us about NZ?  

Pick one thing disparaging I have said about the cor. Dean I don't like the way he sold out. Ben should have been charged with assault. 

Not once do i dis their teams, their chances of winning, or their politics in the game. I bet money on etnz last cycle and won at 12:1. I wouldn't place any on anyone yet this time out.

But you go right along and chum up with spamdaddy and troll cat. Thx

Edit..ha ha,I just looked at the two reactions, and there ya are.

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On 8/8/2020 at 1:20 AM, RMac said:

Uhhh... you know that's how you probably sound to a lot of us about NZ?  

Big difference - we've been doing it since 1986:D

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So over on the Prada thread there is an interview with max about the current state of play, very good it is too.

 

last point he made was that Prada gave the cyclor thing to ETNZ after they withdrew from the last cup.

this rather pokes a hole in the message that it was all in-house kiwi ingenuity thing.  Can’t imagine GD will be thrilled.

i mean no one gives a fuck now but interesting Max brought it up. 

 

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32 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

So over on the Prada thread there is an interview with max about the current state of play, very good it is too.

 

last point he made was that Prada gave the cyclor thing to ETNZ after they withdrew from the last cup.

this rather pokes a hole in the message that it was all in-house kiwi ingenuity thing.  Can’t imagine GD will be thrilled.

i mean no one gives a fuck now but interesting Max brought it up. 

 

Nothing to see here. ETNZ did the all development work on the cyclors. The other teams may or may not have 'thought about it'.

But obviously not enough.

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1 minute ago, Sailbydate said:

Nothing to see here. ETNZ did the all development work on the cyclors. The other teams may or may not have 'thought about it'.

But obviously not enough.

So max lied in the article? 

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Just now, JALhazmat said:

So max lied in the article? 

You tell me. 

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11 hours ago, Zaal said:

 

 

Here's another great interview, this time with Max Sirena. From bowman to Team Director and skipper of LR, he won 2 AC : one with OTUSA with JS and RC with the trimaran (he was head of sail design) and one with GD and ETNZ. He talks about how he started in the Cup: he helped assembling America Cube just bought by Bertelli to start the first Luna Rossa campaign.   .Then he talks about America's Cup and AC75, here what he says :

( I will only report his words and signal every time it's me commenting) .

 

- LR strongly wanted the upwind start to make the pre-start circling crucial again (ETNZ wasn't so sure about it). They are developing a very advanced software to help them in this fase. 

- They train with a speedboat that can "clone" the same speed and the same acceleration of LR, to simulate the behavior of another AC75.

- With the IACC they tested the boat sailing in a straight line for hours, trying to gain half a node more in speed. AC75 instead need to get "stressed" to be developed. The boat isn't stressed when it's sailing in a straight line, but when performing takeoffs, tacks and jibes. The development of the boat is made primarly doing complex maneuvering at high speed, not in straight line speed tests. They do that too, of course, like when they damaged the mast: they were doing a 35km downwind trip.

- About LR failures, he explain that there are two  approach building a boat. You can make the boat "bulletproof", so you are sure anything can't be damaged - but you end up having a very heavy boat - or you build a radical boat at the edge of the project's limits. Since they had time and  wanted to test also the simulator and the building process, they decided to go radical, since there is always time for adding wight, but taking it  away is far more difficult (edit: my personal idea is that they started with foils so small for the same reason, to learn sailing the boat with the most difficult - and faster?-  foils aviable. Max doesn't say that, this foil thing it's just my opinion). In order to have the best performances they had to push the boat to the limit. Everything is done with the most precision and accuracy, but you have to take - calculated - risks. Of course they didn't want to break the mast, but they were testing something new, something the boat wasn't 100% ready for, and they needed to have some feedback asap. If you want to win, he explain, you have to take risks. He make two examples: 1) with ETNZ they broke the foils one month before the start of the Louis Vuitton Cup. 2) When he was head of sails design with OTUSA they developed the famous wing sail of the trimaran because they broke the "traditional" mast. The wing sail was ready, but it was so huge, so complex and so new that they initially decided against using it and to go with the normal sails. One day performing a test (he says that it was a very similar test to the one they were performing when they broke LR mast) they destroyed the mast in 3 pieces. So they went with the wing-sail, and he says that without it Alinghi 99% had won the Cup. 

-  Getting information from / spy the competitors is very important, but you have to stay focused on your design ideas. They changed 48 hull models on the simulator before starting the building of B1, the first were similar to the Ineos boat. They are very interested about the lenght of the foils and of the rudder of the competitors, because the lenght of the rudder can give you incredible speed gains. They watch what the other teams do, but they always have to think if some innovation made by some other team can be useful on their boat.  

- Having Ineos in Cagliari was useful to watch how their team works, their daily routine, to see in how much time they put the boat in the water and how much time they needed to get the boat ready for sailing. They sailed in the same body of water only one time (the famous one) and there were some distance between them, 4-500 m leeward -windward. He says that the sensation was that they were faster, a lot faster, but that wasn't a speed test, it was only 2 boats sailing in the same body of water, so it's not reliable. LR was sailing a lot farther offshore, where there was stronger winds, and that's why they had a smaller headsail. Both AC75s were coming back to their bases. There was the said leeward - windward distance, so it's possible that LR had higher wind pressure, but they were quite happy when they returned to the base. Joking, he add that if he had to choose a boat, he would pick LR without a doubt, and that he thinks that Ineos sailors would take LR too. He expect Ineos B2 to be a lot similar to LR and Te Ahie. 

- Asked by the audience about the speed of the AC75, he confirms 49 knots made with 18 wind knots. 50+ knots will be made easily by the time of the Cup. The great difference with the AC50 is not the top speed, but the average speed. In the famous video where LR is sailing in the  choppy sea, they had 42 knots of average speed for 8/9 minutes with a 24-25 knots Scirocco wind. 

- He confirms that the tactician works before the start.

- LR B2 will be not so different from B1. He expect also ETNZ B2 to be an evolution of B1. 

-  They have some new things ready for B2, they had to show some ideas in B1 (like the hull shape) because even the best simulator can't match the information you get from the real thing, and they needed to test the hull and sails.

- They sail bow down to close the gap with the water and create a ground effect. The shear lines are lower at the bow and at the stern, and higher at the center. This "boomerang" shape helps with the aerodynamics of the boat, allowing for much power in the sails. Sailing bow down (he calls it pitch down) also helps in taking the rudder more out of the water, adding speed. The overheeling attitude create more righting moment and simulate the same effect that some trimaran (he sailed a lot with Frank Cammas) had with the canting rig on the mast. It gives a lot of power to the boat.

- The LR TP52 campaign was not so great, he thinks that maybe they made a mistake to partecipate because they were all thinking at the America's Cup.

- Weight is crucial. Taking 30 kg off the boat you can gain up to 1 knot of speed. Every sailor must stay on a target weight, and they have different crew combination based on their weight. Helmsmen (I noted he used the plural) and mainsail trimmer are on a stricly diet to loose weight to allow more freedom of crew combinations.

- One of the top speed he can talk about is 50 knots made with 18 knots of wind. He says that anyway AC 72 were a lot more difficult to sail, since there were less instruments to control the boat.

- The most "dangerous" situation for the AC75 is jibing downwind, because in order to avoid the keel to touch the water during the manoeuver they raise up the boat. They don't clos the gap between the keel and the sea anymore. Doing this you can stall the rudder during the rotation. He says that that's how ETNZ capsized in the famous episode, and that Ineos also did that. They didn't do it with B1 (although they went near) but did it with Little Moon.

- The top of the mainsail have a sort of airbag that increase the buoyancy, so if the boat capsize it helps a lot.

- The double mainsail is now so advanced that it's as good as the wing-sail in terms of performance, but a lot easier to manage logistically.

- It was LR idea to use the cyclors on the AC50. They bring it to ETNZ when LR retired.

The last point ^
Was Max lying? If so, why? 

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6 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

The last point ^
Was Max lying? If so, why? 

Maybe he wasn't lying about LR thinking about using cyclors. My point is, other Challengers say they thought about it too.

But only one team developed and proved the idea.

The idea that LR developed cyclors and handed the advantage to ETNZ has about as much credibility as Doug Lord developing foiling Ultime Multis. 

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what would you say to someone that gave you an idea you were already working on and going to use

but keeping it secret

 

would you say ...

we are already doing it

we have thought about it

or

thanks for the idea we will look into it

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22 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

The last point ^
Was Max lying? If so, why? 

Puleese did you have to cross post that? 

No, max Probly didn't lie, but execution counts. There is plenty other juicy bits to pore over from that great translation..in the LR thread. Putting it here is just petulant.

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Peter Burling and Blair Tuke are keeping well away from the politics of the America's Cup

Peter Burling and Blair Tuke are keeping well away from the politics of the America's Cup

9 August 2020

There's set to be just three Cup challengers, after Team New Zealand's bid to allow American challenger Stars and Stripes the use of their first Cup boat Te Aihe was rejected by the arbitration panel.

It's unlikely Stars and Stripes will make it to Auckland.

Burling says that's out of their control.

>> More Sailing News 

© 2020 Newstalk ZB, NZCity

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31 minutes ago, barfy said:

Puleese did you have to cross post that? 

No, max Probly didn't lie, but execution counts. There is plenty other juicy bits to pore over from that great translation..in the LR thread. Putting it here is just petulant.

Only cross posted for clarity Of what he had said , not point scoring. Providing the source of what I was on about isn’t petulant 
 

yes I know you are laughing about the ineos design being one they discarded, that they are faster, that the Ineos lot would rather be in the LR boat etc Juicy enough? 

sailbydate making out Max has the same credibility as ol Doug? That’s petulant. 

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2 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Only cross posted for clarity Of what he had said , not point scoring. Providing the source of what I was on about isn’t petulant 
 

yes I know you are laughing about the ineos design being one they discarded, that they are faster, that the Ineos lot would rather be in the LR boat etc Juicy enough? 

sailbydate making out Max has the same credibility as ol Doug? That’s petulant. 

I am laughing, gee do you have my arlo password? But I didn't post it. Sbd is a fuddy duddy.

And the entire Ineos bit was set up as subjective and joking by Max at the start, so ya gotta take it with a grain of the salty sea.

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9 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Max has the same credibility as ol Doug? That’s petulant

Doug? Your inception date is post DL isn't it?

Edit:D

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9 minutes ago, barfy said:

Doug? Your inception date is post DL isn't it?

Edit:D

Long time lurker... ;-) the fire arrow wasn’t it? Did he leave or get pushed? 

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1 minute ago, JALhazmat said:

Long time lurker... ;-) the fire arrow wasn’t it? Did he leave or get pushed? 

And the..dare I say it..patented spelling of J shaped foils. 

Hasn't been heard of. I hope he is well and is good health, and racing RC sailboats.

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8 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

So over on the Prada thread there is an interview with max about the current state of play, very good it is too.

 

last point he made was that Prada gave the cyclor thing to ETNZ after they withdrew from the last cup.

this rather pokes a hole in the message that it was all in-house kiwi ingenuity thing.  Can’t imagine GD will be thrilled.

i mean no one gives a fuck now but interesting Max brought it up. 

 

It's not new, but only one team has made it work successfully.

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ETNZ could well have had the same idea. Max simply said it was their "idea" but that doesn't mean ETNZ did not have the same idea.

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

ETNZ could well have had the same idea. Max simply said it was their "idea" but that doesn't mean ETNZ did not have the same idea.

That is possible, and so is the possibility that it was LR that brought the idea over. We have here a first hand account of one person stating the origin of the idea within ETNZ. Has it been stated as clearly by someone else with a different origin?

The notion of nationality wrt design in these cups is also a bit silly. The key people on the design side come from all over the place in pretty much all teams, not to mention the design tools which make things possible. 

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2 minutes ago, buckdouger said:

That is possible, and so is the possibility that it was LR that brought the idea over. We have here a first hand account of one person stating the origin of the idea within ETNZ. Has it been stated as clearly by someone else with a different origin?

The notion of nationality wrt design in these cups is also a bit silly. The key people on the design side come from all over the place in pretty much all teams, not to mention the design tools which make things possible. 

 

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9 hours ago, phill_nz said:

what would you say to someone that gave you an idea you were already working on and going to use

but keeping it secret

 

would you say ...

we are already doing it

we have thought about it

or

thanks for the idea we will look into it

Or, 'Say what? What a fucking dumb idea that is, Luigi"

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Checked the webcam this morning and Te Aihe is definitely out today. Not sure about Defiant?

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11 hours ago, JALhazmat said:
12 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Nothing to see here. ETNZ did the all development work on the cyclors. The other teams may or may not have 'thought about it'.

But obviously not enough.

So max lied in the article? 

Both Jimmy and Barker were interviewed after the launch of ETNZ's AC50 and said their teams had also considered pedal power but deemed the cons outweighed the pros. They were wrong of course, and you could see a flicker of fear in their eyes. When another team has something radically different there's always that chance they'll be radically better.

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

Checked the webcam this morning and Te Aihe is definitely out today. Not sure about Defiant?

Defiant heading out also... This will be interesting! Very light at the moment 

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The bulb on the port foil looks quite small and shallow in the few far-away photos that I managed. Might try for some closer shots this afternoon.

Interesting, in the last two pics you can see some kind of feeding frenzy going on in the background, and in one pic I got, a gannet is diving right by a chase boat.

Then they headed out around the back of Rangi.

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The feeding frenzy is just the bullsh&t artists on the forum scavenging 

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Sorry, tried my best to get a seagull; a gannet was the best I could manage.

Another scrappy shot of the port foil, again too far away, but for what it's worth ...

DSC_1273.jpg

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In one of the interviews that GD did on the cyclors, he gives credit to GA.

GD was concerned that GA hadn't contracted any grinders.

GA's response was that the knew what he wanted to do with the wing and how much power that needed and that arm grinding wasn't going to provide it. It was part of GA's attitude of throwing the ball as far as you can, and then chasing after it.

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1 minute ago, weta27 said:

Sorry, tried my best to get a seagull; a gannet was the best I could manage.

Another scrappy shot of the port foil, again too far away, but for what it's worth ...

DSC_1273.jpg

Not very much anhedral going on with that one!

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The other problem with using gannets to measure boat speed is that their velocity is all vertical 

DSC_1265.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Chapter Four said:

In one of the interviews that GD did on the cyclors, he gives credit to GA.

GD was concerned that GA hadn't contracted any grinders.

GA's response was that the knew what he wanted to do with the wing and how much power that needed and that arm grinding wasn't going to provide it. It was part of GA's attitude of throwing the ball as far as you can, and then chasing after it.

Not according to Max Sirena and JALh, apparently. ;-)

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1 minute ago, weta27 said:

The other problem with using gannets to measure boat speed is that their velocity is all vertical 

DSC_1265.jpg

:D

Pretty sure Smack would point out, that is entirely appropriate for, Te Aihe. ;-)

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running flat foils on both sides :O

so we can definitely make the assumption that this is at least #3 foil of a total of 6 allowed

@weta27 - if you can get a couple of square on pics to me I can scale the box's over them

 

 

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The foil restrictions are related to mass yeah?  So the foils themselves could be repositioned without using up the allocation if the mass remains the same?  

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1 minute ago, I ride bikes said:

The foil restrictions are related to mass yeah?  So the foils themselves could be repositioned without using up the allocation if the mass remains the same?  

potentially, but if you have a V shape and move it to a T shape at the bottom of the box you have re-positioned the bulk of the mass

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So, are we Kiwis ready to concede, ETNZ went to the wrong corner of the box for their initial foil development? :ph34r:

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9 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

if you can get a couple of square on pics to me I can scale the box's over them

Not quite square but close, stbd only at this stage. Will try for better this arvo.

square-on-stbd.jpg

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11 minutes ago, weta27 said:

 

Not quite square but close, stbd only at this stage. Will try for better this arvo.

square-on-stbd.jpg

Where is the bustle ? or optical illusion ?

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12 hours ago, barfy said:

Sbd is a fuddy duddy.

Well, you're right about that today, Barfy. It's a grey, overcast, cold day and my bones ache. :-(

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2 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Well, you're right about that today, Barfy. It's a grey, overcast, cold day and my bones ache. :-(

You must be wrong today Sbd ;)

 

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5 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Where is the bustle ? or optical illusion ?

Pretty sure it's still there TC, looking at, Weta's tow pics above.

Jeez, imagine discovering no bustle as WELL as bulbed foils. I doubt I could survive both revelations in one day! ;-)

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1 hour ago, weta27 said:

DSC_1224.jpg

DSC_1231.jpg

DSC_1234.jpg

DSC_1247.jpg

DSC_1249.jpg

DSC_1254.jpg

DSC_1261.jpg

DSC_1263.jpg

DSC_1271.jpg

Looks like 2 flat foils, a bulbed foil on port and bulbless on starboard.

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1 hour ago, weta27 said:

you can see some kind of feeding frenzy going on in the background,

Kahawai....

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22 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Kahawai....

Fresh smoked Kahi, yum. Need to get back out again. When it warms up a bit...

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

So, are we Kiwis ready to concede, ETNZ went to the wrong corner of the box for their initial foil development? :ph34r:

Jury is still out imho Sbd. What we do know, is that ETNZ have comprehensive real world data on bulbless foils in two configurations - flat and dihedral. Good basis to calibrate their sim, and now they can run bulbs to see if they're better. Seems to be plenty of logic in their approach.

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6 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Fresh smoked Kahi, yum.

Never tried them smoked....we generally used them as bait for snapper. That working school could be juvenile kingies, but most likely kahawai.

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2 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Never tried them smoked....we generally used them as bait for snapper. That working school could be juvenile kingies, but most likely kahawai.

Then you are missing a treat. Also good in fish curries or blackened fish as it is strong enough to push back against the spices.

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2 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Then you are missing a treat.

Love my smoked snapper - food of the gods......but yeah will try smoking some Kahawai one day......Off the coast here in Northern NSW we get Spanish Mackerel, Wahoo, and Yellow Fin tuna - all premium table fish.... 

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My nowcasting coast guard app says 15 average 18 peak due west at 14:12

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46 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Love my smoked snapper - food of the gods......but yeah will try smoking some Kahawai one day......Off the coast here in Northern NSW we get Spanish Mackerel, Wahoo, and Yellow Fin tuna - all premium table fish.... 

I think Kahawai is better smoked than snapper. Wahoo and Mahimahi are my two favourites.

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1 hour ago, Gissie said:

Fresh smoked Kahi, yum. Need to get back out again. When it warms up a bit...

Hot smoke glaze: Salt, a little brown sugar and honey. Yum, yum.

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4 minutes ago, Gissie said:

I think Kahawai is better smoked than snapper. Wahoo and Mahimahi are my two favourites.

Sword fish is pretty good too, Gissie. But my personal favourite is common old fish bait - mullet. It's a bit oily for some, but great on a cracker biscuit, with freshly squeezed lemon juice and ground black pepper. Yum.

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Just now, Sailbydate said:

Sword fish is pretty good too, Gissie. But my personal favourite is common old fish bait - mullet. It's a bit oily for some, but great on a cracker biscuit, with freshly squeezed lemon juice and ground black pepper. Yum.

Never had a lot of swordfish, something to do with the cost of catching them...

It always amazes me how many turn their noses up at some of the fish that are readily caught.The right method and it is all good, especially when caught by yourself.

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

Jury is still out imho Sbd. What we do know, is that ETNZ have comprehensive real world data on bulbless foils in two configurations - flat and dihedral. Good basis to calibrate their sim, and now they can run bulbs to see if they're better. Seems to be plenty of logic in their approach.

That is how the other teams did it.  They all had bulb less foils at first on the test boats, then switched to the bulbed foils after gathering the real world data.  Convergence. 

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1 minute ago, The_Alchemist said:

That is how the other teams did it.  They all had bulb less foils at first on the test boats, then switched to the bulbed foils after gathering the real world data.  Convergence. 

Difference is, the others don't seem to be having the same success as the Kiwi's are having with their configurations. Certainly AM aren't.

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20 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Hot smoke glaze: Salt, a little brown sugar and honey. Yum, yum.

I like to salt the fuck out of them and leave in the fridge of a good stretch .... gets the moisture out and stops it from going sloppy. Then, as you say, brown sugar, honey, knobs of butter and a good crack in the hot smoker with manuka shavings. Consider trying a little pomegranate molasses for a bit more zing

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Difference is, the others don't seem to be having the same success as the Kiwi's are having with their configurations. Certainly AM aren't.

Another totally ridiculous statement with no basis in really.  Take off your fanboy glasses and join the discussion for once!

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why are people just assuming you can 'add a bulb' and get real world confirmation results

the point of the bulb is to hold mass, this means wings are full structural arnt required to hold the weights. this means you can have a thinner profile / volume

if etnz still has the weight in the fat wings and adds a bulb all they are effectively doing is adding drag

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15 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Never had a lot of swordfish, something to do with the cost of catching them...

It always amazes me how many turn their noses up at some of the fish that are readily caught.The right method and it is all good, especially when caught by yourself.

I love trevally...all this talk about fish has made me hungry so it's off to the fish shop for lunch..

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Just now, The_Alchemist said:

Another totally ridiculous statement with no basis in really.  Take off your fanboy glasses and join the discussion for once!

Based on the video, and the explanations of those who have been out on the water. All we have to do is compare the video and images. Even you have to admit, AM right now, is having more than a couple of issues, that ETNZ is not having, whether they be control or handling errors. 

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Just now, Forourselves said:

Based on the video, and the explanations of those who have been out on the water. All we have to do is compare the video and images. Even you have to admit, AM right now, is having more than a couple of issues, that ETNZ is not having, whether they be control or handling errors. 

You won't get any help from the seagulls when you're trying to gauge speed - they're all on Queen St. evidently..

853572776_SeagullsonQueenSt.jpg.7c64c620740ec6c693ab8c95ea37aa70.jpg

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2 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Pretty sure it's still there TC, looking at, Weta's tow pics above.

Jeez, imagine discovering no bustle as WELL as bulbed foils. I doubt I could survive both revelations in one day! ;-)

A smaller belly perhaps ?

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3 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

So, are we Kiwis ready to concede, ETNZ went to the wrong corner of the box for their initial foil development? :ph34r:

What we like of Kanterbury locals is that they are not one eyed B)

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9 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

What we like of Kanterbury locals is that they are not one eyed B)

Kanterbury?

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40 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

if etnz still has the weight in the fat wings and adds a bulb all they are effectively doing is adding drag

You're assuming the bulb has no other purpose than ballast. It may just be that with a bulb is better, regardless of weight distribution.

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3 minutes ago, RobG said:

You're assuming the bulb has no other purpose than ballast. It may just be that with a bulb is better, regardless of weight distribution.

image.png.228abe6e7058befed819db5b8247c321.png

doubt it :lol:

you need to displace the water around the bulb ... the only way you can do that is accelerating the water, faster water more chance of cavitation

if a bulb is better why are we not seeing them on rudders?

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9 hours ago, Forourselves said:

ETNZ could well have had the same idea. Max simply said it was their "idea" but that doesn't mean ETNZ did not have the same idea.

Think that everyone is missing the point that it was the Swedes back in what c.1980(?) who tried out pedal power on their 12M that were the genesis to all of this......

This whole conversation is moot.

What it does serve to remind us is that innovation is key and often multi faceted in its spin-offs. Pedal power meant that their hands were free for other tasks - giving more outright power to the boat but also sharing complex tasks across more bodies - flight control, jib trim, tactics, situational awareness etc

Win/Win....

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2 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Never tried them smoked....we generally used them as bait for snapper.

the small fat ones are really good

catch livies for the kingies .. when they get less active cut and bleed em for snapper bait

on the trip home split and dry them

when they get home they are smoked

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2 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

image.png.228abe6e7058befed819db5b8247c321.png

doubt it :lol:

you need to displace the water around the bulb ... the only way you can do that is accelerating the water, faster water more chance of cavitation

if a bulb is better why are we not seeing them on rudders?

Have to agree but disagree. Too simplified an explanation. And a misleading photo...... but at least it is prop powered and not fighter jet analogy!

Bulbs allow pressure points to be manipulated around and away from leading edges - the recovery point of pressure field can be altered by a bulb to allow the recovery point to intersect with the leading edge, thereby reducing the likelihood of cavitation - (Cavitation @Tornado-Cat - not ventilation)

Anhedral also spreads the  pressure field more evenly - hence the Mercedes Star configuration - and probably why AM are trialling it on their rudder at the moment.

So its not as simple as what you describe - though you do start in a valid direction.

The plane is a Cargo plane so its not a class leading example of minimum drag - just a fit for purpose design......

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Okay just to add a sailing angle to this fish talk.....In my early twenties I noticed a school of Kahawai working the bay (Arkles). Had my starling on the beach, ran back and picked up a lure/hand line and sailed out - really light conditions. Managed to put myself right in the middle of the working school and snagged two of em, before I had such a tangle I couldn't get the line out again. Not easy trying to sail and troll at the same time. Two big kahawai flapping around in the cockpit - so funny......

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4 hours ago, weta27 said:

in one pic I got, a gannet is diving right by a chase boat.

 

4 hours ago, weta27 said:

Sorry, tried my best to get a seagull; a gannet was the best I could manage.

 

4 hours ago, weta27 said:

The other problem with using gannets to measure boat speed is that their velocity is all vertical 

Shhh @weta27........

Unknowingly You are giving the teams secrets away!

It is no coincidence that with the development of the boat and the increased speeds it is attaining, those Gulls from Queen St. can no longer keep up.....

It is worth mentioning that Cape Gannets are recorded:

100 km/hour
 
They can hit the water at speeds of up to 100 km/hour. Cape gannets are expert fliers, once in the air. On land, they need a runway to build up speed before they can take off.
 
This happens to be approximate Cavitation ceiling speed.
 
Any engineer worth his salt can analyse a vertical component for comparison to a horizontal motion. The diving action of the  Bird has also removed the apparent wind factor that was creating undue large data errors between upwind and downwind flight and is much more repeatable and reliable datum source. 
 
Coincidence? I thunk not! ;)
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8 minutes ago, Boink said:

Have to agree but disagree. Too simplified an explanation. And a misleading photo...... but at least it is prop powered and not fighter jet analogy!

Bulbs allow pressure points to be manipulated around and away from leading edges - the recovery point of pressure field can be altered by a bulb to allow the recovery point to intersect with the leading edge, thereby reducing the likelihood of cavitation - (Cavitation @Tornado-Cat - not ventilation)

Anhedral also spreads the  pressure field more evenly - hence the Mercedes Star configuration - and probably why AM are trialling it on their rudder at the moment.

So its not as simple as what you describe - though you do start in a valid direction.

The plane is a Cargo plane so its not a class leading example of minimum drag - just a fit for purpose design......

happy to have a debate :)

 

discussed this in the foil/boat comparison thread a while back

have a watch from around 43 mins, all about limiting nozzles (drag)

in my view, you are speeding up the water around the bulb and introducing worse shaped nozzles. need to be fairing the crap out of them

my vision if anything in front of the junction would be a 3 way arrow point (kind of like what etnz have on the trailing edge)

 

 

 

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