Salty Seacock

Emirates Team New Zealand.

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One thing I do love about the ETNZ boat. 

The shape is so defined and clean that you can just about see air flowing over it, even when it's stationary!  You can almost see how all the biyts working without even seeing it in action!

It's not pretty, but it certainly looks effective!

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This boat is pretty impressive. Those people losing their minds that she's like Ineos B1 clearly aren't the most observant folks out there. There are zero similarlites beyond a brief section of slab sides about two thirds the way back. That's where the similarities starts and end IMO. The aero is super impressive. Crew tucked into the cowlings either side (not sure if this is the right word). You can clearly see how the whole hull form is like a wing with a moth-like canoe volume hanging off the bottom, that blends with generous flat in the bow. The angle of the bottom volume gives a good suggestion of the intended sailing trim. Wonder if by lowering the deck as they have done gains sail area? The mast pivot is on a raised pedestal by the looks of it. Fascinating to think that when ETNZ claimed Te Kahu was a kind of B1.5, they weren't lying. The complexity down the centreline on the canoe volume is interesting. Are the little convavities and strake thingee about quick release or what? Also, to those who think there will be no trickle down from this incredible moment in AC time are not open minded enough. I have always felt like foiling cats seemed a little awkward and illogical. I believe what we are seeing here is the future of foiling hull forms. We are in the midst of another great leap, another paradigm shift in sailing I reckon. Man I love this stuff!!

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8 minutes ago, Indio said:

I rather think that Holroyd and Bernasconi would have arrived independently at their respective design decisions through their naval architectural engineering expertise and sound design principles and simulations. As would have LR's and Team-NYYC's designers.

Their design directions were always likely to converge - you can't argue with physics..

No disputing that. My musing was, might Nick have any regret not having more conviction in some of his original Britannia design choices, he seemed to abandon with his B2 design.

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16 hours ago, WakaNZ said:

25ABCF3F-7798-4FF2-8A97-8C1843FE3ADF.jpeg

I like the upturned dual exhaust pipes, or are those wheel wells?

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5 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Fair point, you mean like this airflow diagram where it creates lower pressure below the hull?

Screen Shot 2020-11-18 at 9.56.06 AM.jpg

 

That is from GB 1 and isn't tunneling

Which is what Am Patriot is design for:

151469304_AMPatriot53.jpg.063404bfb71c9bc95f1ed27c2b1f3ab7.jpg

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7 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:
7 hours ago, Sidecar said:

If you are heeled to windward, you have righting moment to spare? And the “lift “ helps hold you up?

If you are out of the water then you have enough lift, and more lift (especially on windward side) will reduce RM

And when you are heeled to leeward, it will increase RM. in other words it has an inherent self levelling aspect to it which should also help maintain ride height, making it faster and easier to sail due to less foil adjustment?

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21 minutes ago, desprit said:

They have their mainsail(s) up. 

Where are they sailing??

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55 minutes ago, Hemi said:

This boat is pretty impressive. Those people losing their minds that she's like Ineos B1 clearly aren't the most observant folks out there. There are zero similarlites beyond a brief section of slab sides about two thirds the way back. That's where the similarities starts and end IMO. The aero is super impressive. Crew tucked into the cowlings either side (not sure if this is the right word). You can clearly see how the whole hull form is like a wing with a moth-like canoe volume hanging off the bottom, that blends with generous flat in the bow. The angle of the bottom volume gives a good suggestion of the intended sailing trim. Wonder if by lowering the deck as they have done gains sail area? The mast pivot is on a raised pedestal by the looks of it. Fascinating to think that when ETNZ claimed Te Kahu was a kind of B1.5, they weren't lying. The complexity down the centreline on the canoe volume is interesting. Are the little convavities and strake thingee about quick release or what? Also, to those who think there will be no trickle down from this incredible moment in AC time are not open minded enough. I have always felt like foiling cats seemed a little awkward and illogical. I believe what we are seeing here is the future of foiling hull forms. We are in the midst of another great leap, another paradigm shift in sailing I reckon. Man I love this stuff!!

* "blends with generous flare in the bow"

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

from https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/123454881/americas-cup-team-new-zealand-see-new-boat-going-well-over-50-knots-and-the-envy-of-opposition

There was obvious pride in the Team New Zealand crew with what their designers and boatbuilders have given them and Ashby was wondering what their opponents were thinking.

“I’d love to be a fly on the wall at the other bases to hear their conversations on what they have seen roll out of the shed here.”

Stay humble glen... 

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

video at LSD https://www.livesaildie.com/blair-tuke-we-need-to-figure-out-how-to-sail-this/

Emirates Team New Zealand sailing member Blair Tuke talks to Cameron Dunn about ‘Te Rehutai’ which was launched on Thursday 19 November 2020 in Auckland New Zealand.

Really the first competitor to give a shout out to AM as a formable challenger.  Everyone else seems to take them lightly.

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19 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Stay humble glen... 

There's nothing arrogant in that statement, Gash is genuinely curious as to what the others would think...

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3 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

There's nothing arrogant in that statement, Gash is genuinely curious as to what the others would think...

Sure.. despite you lot claiming him there is an ozzy lurking under the surface. ;-)

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38 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Really the first competitor to give a shout out to AM as a formable challenger.  Everyone else seems to take them lightly.

Who is everyone else? That’s actually gone on record and dismissed them? ( apart from max before they sailed past him recently.) 

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9 minutes ago, Apterix said:

Blimmin awesome - not much pissing around - straight into it!

well that is starting to look like  they think "end plating" is worthwhile

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

 I think a few people need to stop getting over excited about the similarities. 
Ineos B1 stern wasn’t flat.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSzzVOIFTUEh5cDylbYYFQ
 

infact theyre completely different.

DSC_1415.thumb.jpg.80df8a672a195f0364d784c0c7d375f3.jpg
 
The height of the topsides at the top of the curve, maybe, but Ineos topsides were straight and did not taper down to the stern, the deck layout is open compared to completely enclosed on ETNZ, no bustle as opposed to a very obvious bustle and a completely different bow profile. Chalk and cheese!

Fracker No2 not that flat arsed either.

Crikey some of the TNZ naysayers need a trip to Specsavers.

F9CFC552-5566-47C6-B6B6-50BEDEAAAD57.jpeg.978c002607452b1042c42642066659f7.jpeg

58F9CD8B-3D77-4A82-8803-4EBBEEFAA6FA.jpeg.1df4f609707d411e32661f354f4423b5.jpeg

 

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I find it quite amazing some of the similarities that ETNZ B2 has with the other boats. But given ETNZ wrote the AC75 design rule and as many have pointed out here they had a massive head start on everyone else. How anyone thinks ETNZ have copied one/some of the other boats, they well and truly have their hand on their dicks.

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Would the deck design increase a funneling effect across the foot of the main?  Generating more power than the other boats? As the wind passes through the slot, instead of just spilling at the back, it’s diverted down along the foot of the main?

Is it true that 60/40 power split across the main? So it would make sense to divert even more of that wasted power along the foot? 

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As most of the power comes from wind going across the outer side of the sail that would make sense. The wind would be compressed as it passes between the outer/leeward side and the inner side of the hull/channel?

I’m  no designer or great sailor.....

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These shots shows just how much of the deck/floor/sole has been cut away compared to the Frackers with the mast sitting on the ball atop of the pedestal.

The only thing these two have in common is that they both float.

F9CFC552-5566-47C6-B6B6-50BEDEAAAD57.jpeg.978c002607452b1042c42642066659f7.jpeg.702d18bb913d3a529c862e8561244087.jpegIMG_2063.thumb.jpeg.8bd04e3da5d488df38870fd15416724c.jpeg

 

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Red represents the condensed air passing along the leeward side and being funnelled down the to the rear of the sail along the foot to create more power?

80E990EC-309F-462A-8FBC-0B815E37B830.jpeg

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

Sure.. despite you lot claiming him there is an ozzy lurking under the surface. ;-)

Are you implying all aussies are arrogant now too? 

:D

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47 minutes ago, Pung boy said:

Would the deck design increase a funneling effect across the foot of the main?  Generating more power than the other boats? As the wind passes through the slot, instead of just spilling at the back, it’s diverted down along the foot of the main?

Is it true that 60/40 power split across the main? So it would make sense to divert even more of that wasted power along the foot? 

Just like UK B1, but they obviously didn’t think it was worth it or they would have put it on their second boat.

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9 minutes ago, weta27 said:

 

DSC_1587.jpg

Fark look at all those sea gulls! #mustbefast

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29 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

These shots shows just how much of the deck/floor/sole has been cut away compared to the Frackers with the mast sitting on the ball atop of the pedestal.

The only thing these two have in common is that they both float.

F9CFC552-5566-47C6-B6B6-50BEDEAAAD57.jpeg.978c002607452b1042c42642066659f7.jpeg.702d18bb913d3a529c862e8561244087.jpegIMG_2063.thumb.jpeg.8bd04e3da5d488df38870fd15416724c.jpeg

 

Are you sure?  The crew walls on NZ2 are high enough to totally enclose the crew, where as the crew on UK B1 could easily rest an arm on the wall.  Also, don’t the rules state the exact height of the mast base in relationship to the foils.  If you take that into consideration, the decks look very similar, with just higher walls on NZ

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1 minute ago, rh3000 said:

Fark look at all those sea gulls! #mustbefast

They saw Pete eating some fish and chips on that big ass back porch.

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Just now, The_Alchemist said:

Are you sure?  The crew walls on NZ2 are high enough to totally enclose the crew, where as the crew on UK B1 could easily rest an arm on the wall.  Also, don’t the rules state the exact height of the mast base in relationship to the foils.  If you take that into consideration, the decks look very similar, with just higher walls on NZ

I don't think this comparison quite works: NZ2 the crew are standing on the hull, GB1 they were in the cockpit. Walls could be similar height, but possibly shorter on NZ2 given the extreme geometry.

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How much foiling did the other teams do on day 1?  From Taka grammar I've watched them mince about a bit in front of Takapuna, then leg it north towards the bays, then way out off whangaparoa.   

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18 hours ago, WakaNZ said:

25ABCF3F-7798-4FF2-8A97-8C1843FE3ADF.jpeg

Now that I've gotten over the shock of the B2 design... from this angle it looks like the designers decided on the best aero design for the hull, but as it was lower that the 1.5m Rules spec, then added the crew pods as "deck end plates".

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11 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Are you sure?  The crew walls on NZ2 are high enough to totally enclose the crew, where as the crew on UK B1 could easily rest an arm on the wall.  Also, don’t the rules state the exact height of the mast base in relationship to the foils.  If you take that into consideration, the decks look very similar, with just higher walls on NZ

TNZ crew can still put an elbow on the gunwale and are not entirely submerged in the pockets so there goes that theory.

C2E0534F-0180-485F-8F2B-536B77391886.jpeg.dc2a9730047124818b2fb735395f381c.jpeg.96cae2c55feb289682bcb38e2f422a71.jpeg 

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4 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

TNZ crew can still put an elbow on the gunwale and are not entirely submerged in the pockets so there goes that theory.

C2E0534F-0180-485F-8F2B-536B77391886.jpeg.dc2a9730047124818b2fb735395f381c.jpeg.96cae2c55feb289682bcb38e2f422a71.jpeg 

Given that there's a shore crew person standing between the jib and the main, I wouldn't read to much into crew positions from this photo ;)

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The stability (righting moment) of Ineos B2 and KZ B2 in the lower heel angles ( < 20deg’) is going to be massively different ~ in effect from Boats 1 configuration in both cases there has been a reversal on righting moment properties.Secondly ~ an educated guess is that the longitudinal prismatic coefficient is much higher on KZ2.

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

Who is everyone else? That’s actually gone on record and dismissed them? ( apart from max before they sailed past him recently.) 

My comment isn't directed at any negative comments towards AM, just the omission of them in all of the talk that was going around during the launches.  They was very little mention of AM by any of the other teams.  i just found it interesting that he made a point of signaling out AM and the work they have been putting in.

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To my eye, she looks good in the water and even better when she gets out.

The shape is starting to make sense.

DSC_1611.jpg

DSC_1620.jpg

DSC_1629.jpg

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14 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

Just looks all sail area in this one.

Looks like their light airs setup. Main looks bigger than we've seen previously.

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6 minutes ago, weta27 said:

First fuzzy look at that boom-less arrangement in action

boom3.jpg

boom4.jpg

Someone is kneeling there (hanging on the main?) whilst this thing is up and foiling...

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Just now, rh3000 said:

Someone is kneeling there (hanging on the main?) whilst this thing is up and foiling...

Confident. 

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19 minutes ago, weta27 said:

First fuzzy look at that boom-less arrangement in action

boom1.jpg

boom2.jpg

boom3.jpg

boom4.jpg

Still looks like they have a boom. Still the rams at the back . Just a long foot to the sail

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2 minutes ago, uflux said:

Still looks like they have a boom. Still the rams at the back . Just a long foot to the sail

This nice shot from @desprit has some interesting detail...a suspended rod for a traveller..maybe a single ram visible...

 

20201120_142000.jpg

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29 minutes ago, weta27 said:

To my eye, she looks good in the water and even better when she gets out.

The shape is starting to make sense.

DSC_1611.jpg

DSC_1620.jpg

DSC_1629.jpg

They've got plenty of sail area up in this shot.! Looks a great day to be testing.  American Magic's sail plan looks tiny (Especially with their small jib) in comparison to this. Can't wait to see some video of them transitioning up onto the foils. hull doesn't look too bad in this shot as compared to some others./ 

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Just now, terrafirma said:

They've got plenty of sail area up in this shot.! Looks a great day to be testing.  American Magic's sail plan looks tiny (Especially with their small jib) in comparison to this. Can't wait to see some video of them transitioning up onto the foils. hull doesn't look too bad in this shot as compared to some others./ 

Hopeful the no Code Zero required setup :rolleyes:

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5 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

Not much interest then?

Ha Ha pisser..! Looks like a Sydney to Hobart start for this years race..! :D

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5 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Ha Ha pisser..! Looks like a Sydney to Hobart start for this years race..! :D

At least no Mr Shouty, 'get the gear on, get the gear, off, off, off, I said off...'

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4 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Can't wait to see some video of them transitioning up onto the foils.

These pics are of the first foil, they were being very careful I suspect, and the transition was imperceptible - I have 5 or 6 frames where its impossible to tell if they are clear of the water or not.

Not that much breeze either, INEOS was just down the way struggling to get something (anything!) out of their CZ.

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7 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Ok, NZ1.5 didn't have the slab sides, or the large square skeg, or the small thin add-on keel either

You do notice that pretty much everyone on here thinks there are lot of things in common with the GB boats, so do the Italian duo. But you still maintain otherwise. 

Oh
Brother
Thou eschews
Understanding
So
Excellently

 

It did have slab sides. It did have crew pods and a similar bow profile.

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36 minutes ago, I ride bikes said:

Why don't they wear aero helmets?  

Most likely because between B2’s shape and the same ugly paint job, the crew wanted to retain at least a little dignity!

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57 minutes ago, MrBump said:

Given that there's a shore crew person standing between the jib and the main, I wouldn't read to much into crew positions from this photo ;)

boom4.thumb.jpg.b053abfbfc1ec8ccebbdc9cebf937712.jpg.4c55f8228c6de6a0bd6ba9949216ba44.jpg

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45 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Someone is kneeling there (hanging on the main?) whilst this thing is up and foiling...

11th crew member no room in the pods.

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12 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

11th crew member no room in the pods.

So all the aero advantage of the pods is lost due to some bloke having to sit on the stern?

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8 minutes ago, FinnFish said:

So all the aero advantage of the pods is lost due to some bloke having to sit on the stern?

until the 'guest racer' is eliminated due to H&S during racing ... wink wink nudge nudge

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2 hours ago, Pung boy said:

As most of the power comes from wind going across the outer side of the sail that would make sense. The wind would be compressed as it passes between the outer/leeward side and the inner side of the hull/channel?

I’m  no designer or great sailor.....

That seems to counter my understanding of what's supposed to happen. Air pressure on the outer side of the sail is supposed to be less, which is what impels the boat. But if the gap between the inner side of the hull and the sail acts as a venturi then air pressure will be reduced as airflow speeds up and consequently power will be increased. Or not.

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On 11/18/2020 at 12:37 PM, The_Alchemist said:

This looks like Britannia B1 that we all laughed at:

 

B6E4F866-FB01-49B2-9076-D9ADC128EE6C.jpeg

Absolutely. It's INEOS B1 top with B2 bottom. It's the last thing I thought I'd see with ETNZ B2. Looks like Holroyd has got the right ideas after all.

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19 hours ago, Barnyb said:

 

126235041_3575053952551637_6074434305030132885_o.jpg

Hull underside looks like it's derived from high speed powerboats - relatively sharp entry, lot of flare forward, and wide flat aft sections to help keep the hull level longitudinally so it can "climb" over the bow wave.

That flare will probably help if the boat "dives" too.

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Quite the launch. Great pics and talk, drinks thanks etnz

out past the noises having ripped over from whangaparoa between 2 and 3 today. Headsail change out there, as I guess it was fresher. . Hull well below the horizon. All this on day one. Amazing.
Ineo’s headed out there eventually but went on to whangaparoa as I left around 3

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51 minutes ago, kidviciousf2b said:

Looking pretty good.  Skims the water nicely making the most of any end plating.  And, someone crosses the boat during the tack - it looks like a bit of a scramble to get out of the pod, but it demonstrates, at least at this stage, that they are intending to move sailors around a bit.   

Also, they continue to fly the foil with the tip piercing the surface - so they obviously still think that works.   

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2 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

That title sets a very low bar considering that they only have pictures of the boat being towed...lol

I think you may need glasses. Have another look :rolleyes:

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19 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Probably tactician. It will be an interesting crew selection process. Ainslie has a helmsman, mainsail trimmer, a pilot. Maybe the pilot flies the boat while the helmsman focuses on boat speed. ETNZ has the obvious, Burling, Tuke and Ashby, but also guys like Josh Junior, Andy Maloney and even Ray Davies, who may end up being coach again, although Davies is backup helmsman. All outstanding sailors in their own right. Will they be simply grinders? They have a few big grinders as well, so maybe spoilt for choice?

While playing around with calcs, it appears to me that the most critical control will be for the stabilator AoA (via rudder rake).  This has to compensate for every slight variation in TWS, mainsail tweaking, etc.  My guess is that this will need to be managed full-time, so not a job for I grinder, I think. 

If the use of an accelerometer (measuring AoA of the hull) real-time display is not accepted as "standard instrumentation", managing the stabilator AoA will be a tough job!

Maybe they will use two helmsmen, alternating as the "flight controller" when they're not steering? As seen in AC35, the tactician could also be grinding (on and off), whilst deciding tactics, so not required 100% of the time.

I think.

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3 minutes ago, Apterix said:

Looking pretty good.  Skims the water nicely making the most of any end plating.  And, someone crosses the boat during the tack - it looks like a bit of a scramble to get out of the pod, but it demonstrates, at least at this stage, that they are intending to move sailors around a bit.   

Also, they continue to fly the foil with the tip piercing the surface - so they obviously still think that works.   

Also of note, it looks like those new fairings on the foil arms may generate a bit of lift - which may allow them to fly the foils on more of an angle and generate a bit more lift to windward.  

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29 minutes ago, zillafreak said:

What is this patched area seen on the rollout? Is this where Herbie was installed? Forgot something? B)

 

Screen Shot 2020-11-19 at 7.12.06 PM.png

Looks like lots of reflections going on. We saw that with the previous boat in this thread,

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17 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

That title sets a very low bar considering that they only have pictures of the boat being towed...lol

????? ......  It is foiling and tacking on the first day, pretty impressive I'll say.

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