Salty Seacock

Emirates Team New Zealand.

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1 hour ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

FB_IMG_1605860281955.thumb.jpg.977bce8ce9442c7c58d2f12c3a3c40dc.jpg

The hull shape looks quite slippery from this angle 

There's just the slightest hint of Gitana 17's main hull in the bow of this thing with the rounded gunwhale down to a hard edge in the topsides...

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Be fascinating to know how much those little touches that we are seeing in those videos (and have seen from others) slow the boat down, and whether the different underwater designs affect it much

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3 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

 

It looks like a beast and is remarkably well dialled in for the first day on the water.  Not feeling quite so glum about initial impressions now.  

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This what happens when you try to use battens to 'push' camber out of a sail. 

INEOS TEAM UK: Innovating better and faster with the digital twin | Siemens

 

I think this was as good as the INEOS boomless set up got.Not too dissimilar to what the Kiwis have noe. But looking at teh huge cutout NZL has is does look like they have more range in their sheeting angle. 
America's Cup: Back on home waters >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News

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50 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Yep, she's boomless. There's two big arse battens down near the foot of the main. You can see them in the pic -

Te_Rehutai_bl.jpg.6246b09a2a4232712e3fa726e0a8e562.jpg

I can't seen any particularly big battens? There's a couple of tension creases in the sail. 

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11 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

Really the first competitor to give a shout out to AM as a formable challenger.  Everyone else seems to take them lightly.

My favourite Challenger Team NYYC AM is very well-respected by Kiwis for a number of reasons: the history of NYYC in the AC, the team's attitude since they launched their challenge, the Kiwi-like way in which they've gone about their business without any distractions, Hutch's history with ETNZ, Barker's involvement.

Make no mistake: win or lose, NYYC will be CoR in AC37 unless they beat us, in which case they will have RNZYS/ETNZ as CoR.

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This is what I see. Red is traveller. Blue is mainsheet. Green is an adjustable clew board for sheeting angle / twist. Pink are 'skirting' lines just to neaten up the shape below the clew board. 

Then there is a couple of creases where excess cloth is folding under tension and being brought down in to the deck. Downwind when the clew lifts these might drop out to maintain a tight fit against the deck. 

But I don't see any evidence of super thick battens 'pushing' camber out of the foot. 

battens.jpg.09a731b6864520128dda7ac8c36600b1.jpg.af422dcbffd8ff12ae599201d1e66cec.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Indio said:

My favourite Challenger Team NYYC AM is very well-respected by Kiwis for a number of reasons: the history of NYYC in the AC, the team's attitude since they launched their challenge, the Kiwi-like way in which they've gone about their business without any distractions, Hutch's history with ETNZ, Barker's involvement.

Make no mistake: win or lose, NYYC will be CoR in AC37 unless they beat us, in which case they will have RNZYS/ETNZ as CoR.

If ETNZ win I wouldn't be surprised to see INEOS as CoR, they are more aligned with the Kiwis on the whole foiling thing. NYYC sounds good in theory as a CoR, but they want traditional monohulls, Bellamente style.

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5 hours ago, zillafreak said:

Yes as challenger. Who are you picking?... Or didnt you read the post?

That's a good bet. I picked Team NYYC/AM to be Challenger right from the get-go.

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13 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Then there is a couple of creases

Are you sure they are creases? They look a bit too well defined to be creases. More like some sort of horizontal battens?

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44 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

In this pic it looks like the lower battens are attached to the main/traveler.

battens.jpg.09a731b6864520128dda7ac8c36600b1.jpg

We need our member with the magic "AI Zoom Enhancer" program to help out here!  Want to clearly see it "bigly". ;)

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

 

Haha! The 2 spy ribs are wringing their rings out trying to keep up:lol:

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@Horn Rock I'm not sure. Just saying what I see. 

But, in a system that is working well I don't think creases are unlikely. Upwind you want to pull hard along the foot to flatten the sail. So any excess cloth will bunch in creases. And you will be sheeting hard on the leech to for power so the clew (and foot of the sail) pulled down in to the deck. It was quite breezy upwind sailing in this video. I'd expect them to drop out downwind when they sail with a fuller sail. 

In ineos final boomless set up they had a a similar skirting line along the foot to neaten up below the clew (you can see below). But I don't think they had enough range of movement on the clew board for the mainsheet attachment. It also looks like NZL have two skirting lines. 

 INEOS TEAM UK

 

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4 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

So this is what sailors look like now. 
 

(Sorry about the screenshot Blair)

A34351C2-A38D-4F98-87BD-E39E92454D1E.png

Seems to me it's kinda what most sensible people look like who face 60+kn winds while outside getting wet, skiers, motorcyclists etc, no?

3 hours ago, MaxHugen said:

Very interesting indeed!

I wonder if it's an asymmetrical section (only at that extended fairing section) that they're trying to get some extra lift from, pre-take-off when the foil cant is probably lower so the section is in the water?

Rules....have you read them? Fairings may not transmit loads etc?

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24 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

foil tip out of the water

They seem to like this "mode" of shallow flying. Not much arm in the water, and the bit that is has that narrowing. Might be fast?

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29 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

They seem to like this "mode" of shallow flying. Not much arm in the water, and the bit that is has that narrowing. Might be fast?

But they’re the only ones with zero-anhedral foils, right?

 

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Still unlovely, but at least you can see how it all works now.

 

Could the fat part of the foil arm be for anti leeway at low speeds?

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1 minute ago, Xlot said:

But they’re the only ones with zero-anhedral foils, right?

LR's foils are pretty shallow anhedrals, but yeah they're the only ones with flat T-foils - so far.

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

foil tip out of the water

Seems to be a bit of a trend ATM. Amway are doing it often and Frackers sometimes on the vids I've seen .

Have to say, B2 for NZL looked pretty good on her first outing.

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9 hours ago, Boybland said:

Those "reflections" line up with the track for the traveller, so they may be something to do with how that was installed or some external variance caused by internal bracing required by it.

You nailed it! The sides are indeed super smooth and glossy. What I WAS SEEING is a small deformation due to the traveler slot. Lines up on the exact spot. So Terra and other deniers can kiss my ass

Its actually visible  at multiple timepoints on the video, even at 2:29. AS REAL REFLECTIONS MOVE BY, this "reflection" somehow stays right on the boat. On both sides :lol:

Now back to sailing....

 

1487323204_ScreenShot2020-11-20at10_11_45AM.png.e893c4c160c0a34a3d41d4475875e68b.png

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24 minutes ago, zillafreak said:

You nailed it! The sides are indeed super smooth and glossy. What I WAS SEEING is a small deformation due to the traveler slot. Lines up on the exact spot. So Terra and other deniers can kiss my ass

Its actually visible  at multiple timepoints on the video, even at 2:29. AS REAL REFLECTIONS MOVE BY, this "reflection" somehow stays right on the boat. On both sides :lol:

Now back to sailing....

 

1487323204_ScreenShot2020-11-20at10_11_45AM.png.e893c4c160c0a34a3d41d4475875e68b.png

So, I think we can all agree, it was NOT a "Patch" 

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3 hours ago, RMac said:

Still unlovely, but at least you can see how it all works now.

 

Could the fat part of the foil arm be for anti leeway at low speeds?

It’s in the eye of the beholder ... and to me functional aero design is as sexy af 

looking at the YouTube from airflow NZ at 2:20 I’m wondering if they’re trying to use the fat foil arm section as a lifting surface ?

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

So, I think we can all agree, it was NOT a "Patch" 

It is a patch.


It’s been well documented that they had a horrendous stack in one of their pre launch midnight test sessions.

the wavy finish on the hull undersides are further evidence of the rippling caused by the shear forces that result when you nose in at over 60 kts.

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13 minutes ago, kiwi39 said:

It is a patch.


It’s been well documented that they had a horrendous stack in one of their pre launch midnight test sessions.

the wavy finish on the hull undersides are further evidence of the rippling caused by the shear forces that result when you nose in at over 60 kts.

I understand they hit the Hauraki Kraaken.

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36 minutes ago, kiwi39 said:

It’s in the eye of the beholder ... and to me functional aero design is as sexy af 

looking at the YouTube from airflow NZ at 2:20 I’m wondering if they’re trying to use the fat foil arm section as a lifting surface ?

In keeping with aero design nomenclature, can we call the fat foil arm sections “spats” as in fixed undercarriage wheel fairings?

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Sure looks like PB crossing shortly after tacks in the Airflow vid, but: Has anyone spotted yet that there are for a fact wheels on both sides? 

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29 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Sure looks like PB crossing shortly after tacks in the Airflow vid, but: Has anyone spotted yet that there are for a fact wheels on both sides? 

My money says there are no wheels. 

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57 minutes ago, Xlot said:

In keeping with aero design nomenclature, can we call the fat foil arm sections “spats” as in fixed undercarriage wheel fairings?

Done !

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I could see them running electronic controllers, or tiny F1 size wheels.

 

This thing looks like a meat cleaver down low. 

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bloody hysterical skinny trimaran. That was the logical design solution all along, but I personally would have preferred it if they actually raced in trimarans....

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12 hours ago, Apterix said:

It looks like a beast and is remarkably well dialled in for the first day on the water.  Not feeling quite so glum about initial impressions now.  

That first run looks bloody quick at a glance. 

Has anyone done a speed calc on her? 

12 hours ago, Apterix said:

It looks like a beast and is remarkably well dialled in for the first day on the water.  Not feeling quite so glum about initial impressions now. 

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49 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

My money says there are no wheels. 

I called it early that wheels wouldn’t feature, so let’s see, was right with the deck height thing so fingers crossed lol 

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12 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Well we have already had at least 2 boats add a think keel overnight this iteration, so who knows if T'arse copied GB 1 or L2

Out of curtsy, please use the full name of the boat.  

Up T'arse

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16 minutes ago, D_Dog said:

That first run looks bloody quick at a glance. 

Has anyone done a speed calc on her? 

The video released last night had several drone shots, some of which were keeping up. Looking at the drone on launch night and speed capability, there are very few commercial drones that can reach 50 knots. I'm picking they held back yesterday which is fair enough for day one!

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Ah so good to see some friendly rivalry,  How else could we  come up with such an apt and evocative phrase as "dog penis paint job" ... wonderful

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Looking closer at the First sail video from airflownNZ:

Here are some speed calculations:

image.png.23785f50022fdee776f9da76dab8ca66.png

It is nice to see them up and foiling the first day, a lot of kinks to work out.

at about 1:40 and on you can see some flutter in the jib.  I took capture a slowed down version:

 

Add you can see the wrinkles on the other side after they turned:

195727114_ScreenShot2020-11-20at4_32_07PM.png.ff1133aa68686a5dd16b1ad893477dd9.png

Also, on every turn it looks like a fire drill with two crew members crossing before the turn and a third crossing back after the turn.  All in front of the mast.

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1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

My money says there are no wheels. 

There are helmsman controls on both side of the boat because they have three people crossing on every turn.  It may not be a wheel.

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3 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

There are helmsman controls on both side of the boat because they have three people crossing on every turn.  It may not be a wheel.

I'm picking joystick steering control.

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10 minutes ago, Indio said:

I'm picking joystick steering control.

Seems to me out of all the things the Cup traditionalists would find to be distasteful about these boats, having a joystick for steering would piss them off the most lol.

Edit:

It could actually be a regular rc transmitter like an frsky Taranis or something similar. They could have pitch and roll on one stick and rudder on the other and one person could control foil angles and steering with one device. If you hooked sail trim up to throttle then one person could control it all.

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Just now, JustinL42 said:

Seems to me out of all the things the Cup traditionalists would find to be distasteful about these boats, having a joystick for steering would piss them off the most lol.

Think of it as a mini tiller.

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11 minutes ago, JustinL42 said:

Seems to me out of all the things the Cup traditionalists would find to be distasteful about these boats, having a joystick for steering would piss them off the most lol.

Yet joystick control will deliver the immediate response from the rudder which I imagine is an absolute necessity in the instant-response environment of these monsters. They could also have toggle switching on top of the joystick to activate other inter-dependent functions - like foil flap control.

It also, coincidentally, will be the most time-consuming and inconvenient for the competitors to try to retrofit to replace their wheels:)

EDIT: It's just occurred to me that Burling would enjoy even more freedom if he had a remote-control wireless Joystick controller he carries with him when he moves from port to s/board. Now wouldn't that be something...:P

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17 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Has their main actually got battens?

You can't see obvious ridges like in the jib, and no pockets.

DSC_1714.JPG

batten1.jpg

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1 hour ago, JALhazmat said:

I called it early that wheels wouldn’t feature, so let’s see, was right with the deck height thing so fingers crossed lol 

Quote

12 minutes ago, Indio said:

Yet joystick control will deliver the immediate response from the rudder which I imagine is an absolute necessity in the instant-response environment of these monsters. They could also have toggle switching on top of the joystick to activate other inter-dependent functions - like foil flap control.

It also, coincidentally, will be the most time-consuming and inconvenient for the competitors to try to retrofit to replace their wheels:)

EDIT: It's just occurred to me that Burling would enjoy even more freedom if he had a remote-control wireless Joystick controller he carries with him when he moves from port to s/board. Now wouldn't that be something

 

Regret shooting down your pindaric flight - but have a look at 16.8

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9 minutes ago, Indio said:

Yet joystick control will deliver the immediate response from the rudder which I imagine is an absolute necessity in the instant-response environment of these monsters. They could also have toggle switching on top of the joystick to activate other inter-dependent functions - like foil flap control.

It also, coincidentally, will be the most time-consuming and inconvenient for the competitors to try to retrofit to replace their wheels:)

EDIT: It's just occurred to me that Burling would enjoy even more freedom if he had a remote-control wireless Joystick controller he carries with him when he moves from port to s/board. Now wouldn't that be something...:P

You could do it all with this.

PXL_20201024_053216800.jpg

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3 minutes ago, JustinL42 said:

You could do it all with this.

PXL_20201024_053216800.jpg

It doesn't even have to be that bulky :) - although it will need to be if he was lounging in an armchair at the bar ashore..

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5 minutes ago, JustinL42 said:

You could do it all with this.

PXL_20201024_053216800.jpg

Good, now we can open the helmsman position into any RC controller operator...

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17 minutes ago, weta27 said:

You can't see obvious ridges like in the jib, and no pockets.

DSC_1714.JPG

batten1.jpg

Pockets could be between the skins and offset vertically, glued on to eliminate stitching for a smoother finish

The leech ribbons are in pairs, a photo of this area might give more detail

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11 minutes ago, Indio said:

It doesn't even have to be that bulky :) - although it will need to be if he was lounging in an armchair at the bar ashore..

They make smaller ones but there is something to be said for having a nice grip. That just happens to be mine.

Might want to make sure the controller is larger than any deck opening that leads into the bilge. It would suck to crash and lose the race because the controller fell below deck lol.

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Sorry if this has been posted already.  It provides a different perspective from some footage already posted.  

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13 minutes ago, Xlot said:

 

Regret shooting down your pindaric flight - but have a look at 16.8

CoR-LRPP will probably file an application against 16.8:P Ah well, it was fun while it lasted.

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19 minutes ago, weta27 said:

boom1.jpg

Note top rudder bearing area

The 2 stabilizer arms coming off the sides are fixed on other boats

You can see its connected directly to the top rudder bearing and the scope of movement can be seen by the gap fwd and aft

Keep an eye on this gap if you want to know rudder angles (upwind vs downwind etc)

The other boats cant do this as they have too much curvature in the hull at this point

 

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5 minutes ago, JustinL42 said:

They make smaller ones but there is something to be said for having a nice grip. That just happens to be mine.

Might want to make sure the controller is larger than any deck opening that leads into the bilge. It would suck to crash and lose the race because the controller fell below deck lol.

True!! But Burling's offsiders Tuke and Gashby can each carry a spare one that activates automatically when the first one goes swimming:)

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46 minutes ago, weta27 said:

You can't see obvious ridges like in the jib, and no pockets.

DSC_1714.JPG

batten1.jpg

So in comparison to AM and Ineos not as much.  The reason why I ask is that there seems to be a lot more wrinkles in the sails yesterday than previously.

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20 minutes ago, gungabow said:

Note top rudder bearing area

 The 2 stabilizer arms coming off the sides are fixed on other boats

You can see its connected directly to the top rudder bearing and the scope of movement can be seen by the gap fwd and aft

 Keep an eye on this gap if you want to know rudder angles (upwind vs downwind etc)

 The other boats cant do this as they have too much curvature in the hull at this point

 

That's tricky!

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34 minutes ago, gungabow said:

Note top rudder bearing area

The 2 stabilizer arms coming off the sides are fixed on other boats

You can see its connected directly to the top rudder bearing and the scope of movement can be seen by the gap fwd and aft

Keep an eye on this gap if you want to know rudder angles (upwind vs downwind etc)

The other boats cant do this as they have too much curvature in the hull at this point

 

Well spotted! :)  Another point @weta27 could focus on, this would keep @MaxHugen (and me :) ) happy

 

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5 hours ago, Forourselves said:

So, I think we can all agree, it was NOT a "Patch" 

I never said it was a patch. I said it looked like one. In fact I was asking what people thought it was. And its certainly not a fucking reflection is it. 

"reflectiongate" is hereby concluded.

 

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6 minutes ago, zillafreak said:

I never said it was a patch. I said it looked like one. In fact I was asking what people thought it was. And its certainly not a fucking reflection is it. 

"reflectiongate" is hereby concluded.

 

Its nothing. Nothing at all, thats what everyone's been trying to say.

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1 hour ago, The_Alchemist said:

There are helmsman controls on both side of the boat because they have three people crossing on every turn.  It may not be a wheel.

Rule 16.8

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32 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Well spotted! :)  Another point @weta27 could focus on, this would keep @MaxHugen (and me :) ) happy

 

Our S.A.S team is growing!   Cool. ;)

(Sailing Anarchy Spies)

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

Its nothing. Nothing at all, thats what everyone's been trying to say.

Oh FFS there is. It's a minute deformation of some kind due to the traveller that shows up because of the insane gloss polish. Perhaps extra strengthening inside the hull, perhaps it is a fucking patch after all that was part of the plan to begin with in order to install part of the traveller. Perhaps that's where they put the training wheels on.

But there is certainly something there, not a damn reflection. And even a reflection isn't "nothing at all" now is it. Fucking brilliant.

 

 

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On 11/19/2020 at 12:49 PM, kenergy said:

 

She foils at least.

 

Edited to add the correct video 

How come you are preventing us from adding to a playlist?

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I won’t waste everybody’s time with 20 photos to prove it but there is NOTHING on the side of the boat there

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Just now, zillafreak said:

Oh FFS there is. It's a minute deformation of some kind due to the traveller that shows up because of the insane gloss polish. Perhaps extra strengthening inside the hull, perhaps it is a fucking patch after all that was part of the plan to begin with in order to install part of the traveller. Perhaps that's where they put the training wheels on.

But there is certainly something there, not a damn reflection. And even a reflection isn't "nothing at all" now is it. Fucking brilliant.

 

 

A trick of light and image. Something that shows up only from a certain angle of light, and not from another... like a shadow. 

S4DGU34LQ6ULUR347AL323MYZU.jpg

Nothing here...

Screen-Shot-2020-11-20-at-8.24.56-PM-sca

Nothing here...

tnz-ac75-te-rehutai-first-sail-b.jpg?fit

Nothing here...

america_s-cup-racer-te-rehutai-launches-

Nothing here...

AC75_ANZ_ETNZ_Launch_Skeg_Stern2_1911202

And nothing here

There's nothing.

Nothing.

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2 hours ago, weta27 said:

DSC_1703.JPG

This is a fantastic photo @weta27! Old school being past by science fiction. I even like the nod to modern youth classes with the BICs Skiffs in the background.

Thanks as always, we are so lucky to have your photo's 

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10 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

A trick of light and image. Something that shows up only from a certain angle of light, and not from another... like a shadow. 

S4DGU34LQ6ULUR347AL323MYZU.jpg

Nothing here...

Screen-Shot-2020-11-20-at-8.24.56-PM-sca

Nothing here...

tnz-ac75-te-rehutai-first-sail-b.jpg?fit

Nothing here...

america_s-cup-racer-te-rehutai-launches-

Nothing here...

AC75_ANZ_ETNZ_Launch_Skeg_Stern2_1911202

And nothing here

There's nothing.

Nothing.

I think you'll find that the red swirls actually move faster than the black ones.

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3 hours ago, Indio said:

I'm picking joystick steering control.

I've done a fair bit of driving boats on sticks and it isn't pretty. It doesn't have feel for rate of change, and extremes of position like a wheel does. I fly a racing drone with a stick, and it's all about rate of change, but you can do a barrel roll or loop with a drone, but not a drone.

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3 hours ago, weta27 said:

boom1.jpg

Note the drainage flap on the light grey area. Similar to the flaps on the underside of the hull. 

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6 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Sure looks like PB crossing shortly after tacks in the Airflow vid, but: Has anyone spotted yet that there are for a fact wheels on both sides? 

I think we’re seeing Pete and Glenn crossing to windward then Blair crossing back.

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8 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

I think we’re seeing Pete and Glenn crossing to windward then Blair crossing back.

Thanks, missed that so far. 
 

similar, at https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2020/11/america-s-cup-team-new-zealand-opt-for-two-helmsman-with-new-boat.html

Kiwi sailing legend Brad Butterworth predicts Team New Zealand will opt for two helmsmen, when they defend the America's Cup in March 2021.

Team New Zealand's second boat is radically different from their first and came as a bit of a shock to onlookers, but Butterworth thinks the biggest shock is yet to come.

"The new boat looks like they might have two helmsmen, where they'll have dedicated helmsmen on side to side, which is something Luna Rossa are doing at the moment," he says. 

 

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