Schakel

Fucked up big time. Crystal Blue crashed because captain having sex

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So many expressions apply directly to this episode of crashing a big boat while getting it on...like "keep your dick in your pants" etc.

Now this may sound crazy but perhaps this stuff happens because a piece of the trout brain that is left over down in the brain stem somewhere just gets the better of people. When you look at trout in the mating season, the risks they take--it is very dangerous! Maybe doing it on the bow of a moving boat that you are supposed to be piloting is equivalent to milting over a redd with an active female, even while ospreys and otters are all coming after you...

haha does water activate the fish brain?

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On 12/6/2019 at 7:17 AM, NORBowGirl said:

It's a quote from a movie. Go see one. 

Oh, I checked your account page.

Is that Derek Zoolander that said that?

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26 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

It ceased to exist twice, however, the culture was able to survive through underground plays, religious ceremonies and other cultural identifiers. During WWII the late PopeJohn Paul II was In a concentration camp breaking rocks with his sick uncle for years until the Uncle died. All of his family was slaughtered and yet he and many others preserved their cultural identity in these underground activities. The ones that were discovered were destroyed. It was as terrible time for many brave Poles.
 

Poland is that rare country that refused to be snuffed out.

Hey, you are the only American I know that actually knows about Poland's struggles and proud history, instead of Polack jokes. You are my new best friend.  If I go to NJ to visit my brother, we'll meet up and the drinks are all on me.  Hell, dinner too!  You must have Polish ancestors.

Everybody has heard of the Jewish Ghetto uprising in 1943, but few people outside of Poland know about the Warsaw uprising of 1944.  In Polish, Powstania Warszawskie.  Talk about bravery.  Rising '44 by Norman Davies is an excellent book about on the subject.  I have been to the Uprising Museum in Warsaw, it's very cool.  I have a good friend that moved to Warsaw and her apartment is in the Wola district.  In the first 3 days of the uprising, the Nazis slaughtered 30,000 Polish men, women, and children in cold blood in Wola.  Shelled the apartment buildings at random, and dragged people out on the streets and mowed them down. Fucking Nazis.  Finally a Nazi general came there and put an end to it, he told them to stop the slaughter, that the Germans weren't Barbarians.  Uh Huh.

I looked up my grandfather online in the Ellis Island documents.  He came when he was 16 years old, from eastern Poland in 1907.  On the space for his country it said 'Russia'.  For nationality it said 'Polish'.  At the time that part of Poland belonged to Russia.

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3 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Geez, I thought it was short for notice of race bow girl. I have to break out the old vhs and watch me some movies...

Take this one:
Amelié
amelie.PNG.f18e3ff3bd735c1fd4d49bb0a8ba0605.PNG
It's for intelligent people.

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10 minutes ago, schakel488 said:

Take this one:
Amelié
amelie.PNG.f18e3ff3bd735c1fd4d49bb0a8ba0605.PNG
It's for intelligent people.

That's pretty funny.  

Don't tell me, you keep your copy of The New Yorker magazine in the toilet for a little light reading, and you listen to Mozart operas on your iPhone airpods while you cut your lawn.  

Why do you bother slumming in this place?  Only a few of us here are intelligent.

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12 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

That's pretty funny.  

Don't tell me, you keep your copy of The New Yorker magazine in the toilet for a little light reading, and you listen to Mozart operas on your iPhone airpods while you cut your lawn.  

Why do you bother slumming in this place?  Only a few of us here are intelligent.

Exactly, Sailing used to be for the elite.
But with the scum that robs us everyday the style is gone.
I am an engineer for Ineos Team UK.
We only do their towing tank test. 
Australia II was in our tank,
Marin
800px-Australia_II_winged_keel.JPG

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6 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

They can do tank testing in AC36?  

Already happened.

She, the foil, looks like a sharp jet fighter that is going to win.
When it looks sharp mosty it's fast.
Look forward to Hull #2 from team UK.
Last one was too ugly.
Jim Rathcliff wanted a new one.
1852989106_IneosteamUK.thumb.jpg.f836acf9c283eb7bde54c5ea1d2654da.jpg
1512694569_actuatorsonukfoil.png.ed3ef7e4fb7ed026671a7c7bb3f16004.png

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11 minutes ago, schakel488 said:

Exactly, Sailing used to be for the elite.
But with the scum that robs us everyday the style is gone.
I am an engineer for Ineos Team UK.
We only do their towing tank test. 
Australia II was in our tank,
Marin
800px-Australia_II_winged_keel.JPG

I read the whole MARIN 3-ring binder on Containership lines optimization 21 years ago. That was a great book. "You can read it, but you cannot copy any of it." So I seared it into my memory as best I could.

I also like your competitor's place in Newfoundland. Bigger basin for self-propelled tests in waves.

On the other end of the scale is the little tank at MIT.
 

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3 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

I read the whole MARIN 3-ring binder on Containership lines optimization 21 years ago. That was a great book. "You can read it, but you cannot copy any of it." So I seared it into my memory as best I could.

I also like your competitor's place in Newfoundland. Bigger basin for self-propelled tests in waves.

On the other end of the scale is the little tank at MIT.
 

Competetive,

I like mesh wire models and the testing.
Is american magic doing their own test?

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10 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

I wanted to say that a while back, but I'm in enough trouble already.  :lol:

Well lets talk about legs then - I always preferred them over tits anyway.

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4 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Well lets talk about legs then - I always preferred them over tits anyway.

Legs have muscles and can be conditioned. :-)

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Just now, SloopJonB said:

Well lets talk about legs then - I always preferred them over tits anyway.

Are you a leg, breast or butt man?
Mostly I like their faces.
And she is Chantall Jansen.
Chantal-Jansen-Euro-Entertainment.thumb.jpg.5ace7135d92e466e5e7273b9d91d5711.jpg
Chantal Janzen

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1 hour ago, schakel488 said:

Exactly, Sailing used to be for the elite.
But with the scum that robs us everyday the style is gone.
I am an engineer for Ineos Team UK.
We only do their towing tank test. 
Australia II was in our tank,
Marin
800px-Australia_II_winged_keel.JPG

Very nice.  The foils on the cat look quite like a B-52 bomber to my eye, and I am sure I am not the only one that has said that.

What I can't understand is your 'sailing used to be for the elite" comment.  I mean, I understand you're an engineer, but your from the Netherlands.  In my limited visits, people there are extremely tolerant and seemingly egalitarian.  Do you have British or German ancestors maybe?   I pointed put a number of accomplished Polish sailors in another thread, Poland is hardly an elite country, at least it hasn't been for quite some time anyway.  Scum have robbed many things in many ways, since, well since the beginning of time I suppose.

But you get to work with interesting boats, so there's that.

I don't know that I can agree with your taste in women, but taste is subjective and everyone has their own tastes, so that's that.  As long as you are happy.  

Last question, do you have a sense of humor?  I've known a good many engineers of all stripes in my life, my bother in law is one, and I have 2 nephews that that suffer the affliction as well, along with many acquaintances.  It seems the possession of a sense of humor was a mixed bag.

Oh, I do love Dutch cheeses.

 

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12 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

LOL, "bother in law."

Hahahaha, Freudian slip maybe?  Actually I quite like him, He's my favorite-in-law, even if he was an engineer.  A civil engineer, mostly bridges and water projects.    And then he switched careers in mid-life and he got his Masters in International Business and worked for BP in their credit card division until he retired.  My sister must like him as well, they celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary this year.  I have had 3 wives and only 31 years total to my credit, I doubt I will surpass their time together no matter how I do it.

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Well lets talk about legs then - I always preferred them over tits anyway.

I'm with you, I've always been a leg and ass man.

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6 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

Hey, you are the only American I know that actually knows about Poland's struggles and proud history, instead of Polack jokes. You are my new best friend.  If I go to NJ to visit my brother, we'll meet up and the drinks are all on me.  Hell, dinner too!  You must have Polish ancestors.

Everybody has heard of the Jewish Ghetto uprising in 1943, but few people outside of Poland know about the Warsaw uprising of 1944.  In Polish, Powstania Warszawskie.  Talk about bravery.  Rising '44 by Norman Davies is an excellent book about on the subject.  I have been to the Uprising Museum in Warsaw, it's very cool.  I have a good friend that moved to Warsaw and her apartment is in the Wola district.  In the first 3 days of the uprising, the Nazis slaughtered 30,000 Polish men, women, and children in cold blood in Wola.  Shelled the apartment buildings at random, and dragged people out on the streets and mowed them down. Fucking Nazis.  Finally a Nazi general came there and put an end to it, he told them to stop the slaughter, that the Germans weren't Barbarians.  Uh Huh.

I looked up my grandfather online in the Ellis Island documents.  He came when he was 16 years old, from eastern Poland in 1907.  On the space for his country it said 'Russia'.  For nationality it said 'Polish'.  At the time that part of Poland belonged to Russia.

I’m actually Irish descent. Just found the family history in a number of books and a 19th century photo album of my late mother’s family this week.The first Girvin hit the American shoreline in 1778. There were countless veterans from the end of the Revolution to the civil war to both World Wars, Korea, Viet Nam and the occupation of Europe(my Dad and Elvis Presley). There is a Jesse Girvin who penned a wonderful poem about the slave years and plantations. Not sure if he was an indentured servant or an Irish slave( the first 600 slaves in the US were Irish, way before a Haitian man convinced a judge that his African servant hadn’t done enough to gain freedom and was enslaved for life- the first black slave enslaved by a black man-the fist African slave owner). The poem may just be a written account of a black slave’s experience written down by a literate Irish slave. Freed Blacks were instructed to avoid connecting with the Irish to keep them from falling into dispair and ignorance. I’ll post it( in photo and written form)in General Anarchy tonight if I have time. 
 

The Polish survived due to sheer willpower, the Irish by leaving for America.

Get your ass over here and let’s hang out. Love the Poles.

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26 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I’m actually Irish descent. Just found the family history in a number of books and a 19th century photo album of my late mother’s family this week.The first Girvin hit the American shoreline in 1778. There were countless veterans from the end of the Revolution to the civil war to both World Wars, Korea, Viet Nam and the occupation of Europe(my Dad and Elvis Presley). There is a Jesse Girvin who penned a wonderful poem about the slave years and plantations. Not sure if he was an indentured servant or an Irish slave( the first 600 slaves in the US were Irish, way before a Haitian man convinced a judge that his African servant hadn’t done enough to gain freedom and was enslaved for life- the first black slave enslaved by a black man-the fist African slave owner). The poem may just be a written account of a black slave’s experience written down by a literate Irish slave. Freed Blacks were instructed to avoid connecting with the Irish to keep them from falling into dispair and ignorance. I’ll post it( in photo and written form)in General Anarchy tonight if I have time. 
 

The Polish survived due to sheer willpower, the Irish by leaving for America.

Get your ass over here and let’s hang out. Love the Poles.

Quite the family history, my roots are shallow in the US.  2nd generation American on my father's side, my mother was a war bride from Rome, Italy.

It's possible next spring, last time I saw my grand twins was spring of 2018.  United has a rare non-stop Berlin to Newark, I could stay with my brother a few days and then go on to NW Pennsylvania.   I'll keep you posted.

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Just now, Snaggletooth said:

#meto

For sure!  I'll bring some nice, drinkable wines.

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Most of what I know about sailing I learned from YouTube. Sure, there is the Spithill amazing prestart, but there is also Captain Ron.

 

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2 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

.....there is also Captain Ron.

That mitte be clue as what es happending oute theire......                         :)

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53 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

#meto

Fock, that's gone be some tree!

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59 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Most of what I know about sailing I learned from YouTube. Sure, there is the Spithill amazing prestart, but there is also Captain Ron.

 

That’s the only way to dock a boat. 
 

Hell I did it this summer without an engine on a  40’er all summer and back winded the boom into the slip for a perfect landing. 
The membership was expecting the same carnage every time, however...

gotta love growing up Sailing dinghys:D

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13 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

Very nice.  The foils on the cat look quite like a B-52 bomber to my eye, and I am sure I am not the only one that has said that.

What I can't understand is your 'sailing used to be for the elite" comment.  I mean, I understand you're an engineer, but your from the Netherlands.  In my limited visits, people there are extremely tolerant and seemingly egalitarian.  Do you have British or German ancestors maybe?   I pointed put a number of accomplished Polish sailors in another thread, Poland is hardly an elite country, at least it hasn't been for quite some time anyway.  Scum have robbed many things in many ways, since, well since the beginning of time I suppose.

But you get to work with interesting boats, so there's that.

I don't know that I can agree with your taste in women, but taste is subjective and everyone has their own tastes, so that's that.  As long as you are happy.  

Last question, do you have a sense of humor?  I've known a good many engineers of all stripes in my life, my bother in law is one, and I have 2 nephews that that suffer the affliction as well, along with many acquaintances.  It seems the possession of a sense of humor was a mixed bag.

Oh, I do love Dutch cheeses.

 

Cheesy!
Cheesy.jpg.789b498e86451bb7945114c3c960abeb.jpg
A guy in the harbor where my boat lies called his 5.5 Kaaskop.
Which is a swearword for a Dutchman.
0464_03082011220_512.jpg.666a65f0feac184aef9c7119b8cf7ae1.jpg

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24 minutes ago, schakel488 said:

Cheesy!

A guy in the harbor where my boat lies called his 5.5 Kaaskop.
Which is a swearword for a Dutchman.
0464_03082011220_512.jpg.666a65f0feac184aef9c7119b8cf7ae1.jpg

That's a nice looking little boat.  It would figure that the Dutch have a swearword involving cheese.

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19 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

That's a nice looking little boat.  It would figure that the Dutch have a swearword involving cheese.

It's a nice class organisation as well.
International 5.5 metre class
55M_SCA_Gold_Cup_ArtemisXIV_winner_26072019.thumb.jpg.ec8b64b8062288ee84bc6950a2ca488c.jpg
These men are ruling world champion in 5.5 class at the moment.
Artemis XIV

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20 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Poland is that rare country that refused to be snuffed out.

I was wandering around the web this morning and stumbled on this meme.

One of the most badass cavalry units in the history of warfare and a hell of a funny meme.  Thought you might like it.

Related image

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watched a pretty interesting film the other night of Polish pilots that came to the UK in WW11 to fly fighter planes. After a rough start ( think gallons of vodka) they became the most successful pilots in the airforce. Of course immediately following the end of hostilities they were kicked out of the UK.....

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4 minutes ago, crankcall said:

watched a pretty interesting film the other night of Polish pilots that came to the UK in WW11 to fly fighter planes. After a rough start ( think gallons of vodka) they became the most successful pilots in the airforce. Of course immediately following the end of hostilities they were kicked out of the UK.....

In defense of the British, they honored the post WW I  treaty of mutual protection when Germany invaded Poland in 1939 to start the war.  It became a world war when Great Britain and France deployed their armies to oppose the Nazis.  

But as the war progressed, the Allies had higher priorities and other problems than to care much about Poland.  For example when the Warsaw Uprising started in August of 1944, the Polish underground Army (Armia Krajowa), the former Polish Army, pleaded desperately to the Allies to air drop supplies and use air power to bomb the Germans in Warsaw.  None of the Allies provided much help, a few tons of weapons and medical supplies were air dropped but it wasn't much.  The Soviets refused the Americans access to relatively nearby airfields so American planes could refuel there before making their way on the long trek back across Europe.  Had the Soviets allowed this access, it could have made a significant difference in the Underground Army's defense of Warsaw.  The Soviets had advanced almost to the Vistula river on the east side of Warsaw and encouraged the Poles to start the Uprising claiming that they would assist in evicting the Nazis from Warsaw.  Instead the Soviets just sat and watched, letting the Poles wear down the Nazi forces and weakening themselves in the process which suited Stalin's future plans, as he loathed the Poles.

Another devastating blow was Churchill's 'naughty secret' during the 1945 Yalta conference.  Churchill unilaterally decided before the conference that the "Curzon Line' would define the new eastern post war Polish border.  It was originally drawn up by a British foreign secretary George Curzon during talks defining the borders of Poland after WW I, but it wasn't implemented then.  The Curzon line deprived Poland a large part of it's land in the east, which Stalin coveted for his own use.  Of course Stalin agreed to this idea and granted Poland a small part of Germany in the west, in compensation.  The final and equally appalling betrayal of Poland was that the Allied powers refused to recognize the Polish government in exile headquartered in London during the war, appeasing Stalin by recognizing a Soviet installed provisional communist government to assume power "on a broader democratic basis" and promising free elections in Poland after the war.  We know how that turned out.  While one could make a good case that the Allies appeased Stalin repeatedly, Stalin made the legitimate point that it was the Soviet Army doing the majority of the bleeding fighting against the Nazi juggernaut.  The military death toll in all theaters in WW II from Great Britain (which included many colonial troops), France, and the US combined totaled about 1 million troops, nearly half of that number from the US.  The Soviet military deaths are estimated to be between 8 to 11 million, so Stalin had a valid point.

Polish military forces contributed considerably to the Allied war effort including their heroic pilots during the Battle of Britain, especially given the circumstances of the dissolution and occupation of the country again,  which had just been reconstituted after WW I.  In spite of what the French claim, I have no doubt that the Polish resistance comprised of Underground Army, and many ordinary citizens, fought harder for longer and did more against the Nazis  than any other occupied country in Europe.  The Warsaw Uprising was the single greatest act of resistance by the local populace, to the Nazis of the entire war.   While there were acts of violence against Jews by Polish citizens during the war, there were far more acts of bravery by people sheltering and rescuing Jews in Poland.  About half of all of the Jews in Europe lived in Poland at he beginning of the war.  About three million Polish Jews were murdered in the camps and in other ways, half of the total deaths of the Holocaust.

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My brother’s father in law told his grandkids about how his parents were Polish Jews and were snuck out of the country when the Blitzkrieg rolled into Poland. They lost all their friends and other relatives there in about 3 years due to the fighting. He had never mentioned  his Jewish ancestry to them for some reason before telling them onThanksgiving. The kids just thought they were straight Polish and Irish mix. I alway knew because his father told me back in the 90’s. This guy was embarrassed about it until recently. It’s a shame

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3 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

In defense of the British, they honored the post WW I  treaty of mutual protection when Germany invaded Poland in 1939 to start the war.  It became a world war when Great Britain and France deployed their armies to oppose the Nazis.  

But as the war progressed, the Allies had higher priorities and other problems than to care much about Poland.  For example when the Warsaw Uprising started in August of 1944, the Polish underground Army (Armia Krajowa), the former Polish Army, pleaded desperately to the Allies to air drop supplies and use air power to bomb the Germans in Warsaw.  None of the Allies provided much help, a few tons of weapons and medical supplies were air dropped but it wasn't much.  The Soviets refused the Americans access to relatively nearby airfields so American planes could refuel there before making their way on the long trek back across Europe.  Had the Soviets allowed this access, it could have made a significant difference in the Underground Army's defense of Warsaw.  The Soviets had advanced almost to the Vistula river on the east side of Warsaw and encouraged the Poles to start the Uprising claiming that they would assist in evicting the Nazis from Warsaw.  Instead the Soviets just sat and watched, letting the Poles wear down the Nazi forces and weakening themselves in the process which suited Stalin's future plans, as he loathed the Poles.

Another devastating blow was Churchill's 'naughty secret' during the 1945 Yalta conference.  Churchill unilaterally decided before the conference that the "Curzon Line' would define the new eastern post war Polish border.  It was originally drawn up by a British foreign secretary George Curzon during talks defining the borders of Poland after WW I, but it wasn't implemented then.  The Curzon line deprived Poland a large part of it's land in the east, which Stalin coveted for his own use.  Of course Stalin agreed to this idea and granted Poland a small part of Germany in the west, in compensation.  The final and equally appalling betrayal of Poland was that the Allied powers refused to recognize the Polish government in exile headquartered in London during the war, appeasing Stalin by recognizing a Soviet installed provisional communist government to assume power "on a broader democratic basis" and promising free elections in Poland after the war.  We know how that turned out.  While one could make a good case that the Allies appeased Stalin repeatedly, Stalin made the legitimate point that it was the Soviet Army doing the majority of the bleeding fighting against the Nazi juggernaut.  The military death toll in all theaters in WW II from Great Britain (which included many colonial troops), France, and the US combined totaled about 1 million troops, nearly half of that number from the US.  The Soviet military deaths are estimated to be between 8 to 11 million, so Stalin had a valid point.

 

The "betrayal" of Poland you refer to was simply Realpolitik - exactly the same as the Baltic States and Czechoslovakia and later with Hungary.

The sad, brutal fact of the matter was that none of them were important enough to take on Russia over.

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8 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

That's a nice looking little boat.  It would figure that the Dutch have a swearword involving cheese.

nice thread drift, grin, the term kaaskop (cheesehead) was, repeat was, up to the 70's the pet name we had for our Dutch neighbours having same lingo, they were usually calling us stupid, both seem to have gone out of fashion, and that's a good thing... they sussed that we're far more clever than they thought and we got over the idea that there is but cheese and tulips to be found in 'Olland , both on account of the fact that we move about a lot more and visit one another a lot more

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On 12/7/2019 at 12:45 AM, Ed Lada said:

Excuse me, are you calling me a dinosaur?  I'm only 64.  Did you actually read what I said?  Or did you just cherry pick the low hanging fruit as it were.

I find it amusing, and yes a bit sexist, to see in this iniquitous den of misogyny how men often rush to the defense when they think one of the few women who regularly post here are being mistreated.  If you were truly as non-sexist as you think you are, then one would think that a woman bowgirl is perfectly capable of defending herself, wouldn't one?  

 

Would you have the same attitude if someone here expressed racist or anti-Semitic views?  Would you expect only people from that race or religion to object?  

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26 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

The "betrayal" of Poland you refer to was simply Realpolitik - exactly the same as the Baltic States and Czechoslovakia and later with Hungary.

The sad, brutal fact of the matter was that none of them were important enough to take on Russia over.

I agree completely, Realpolitik often sucks.  Actually I don't think it is a real political/global political strategy in spite of its name.  It  is often a way for the powerful countries to rationalize their often self serving baser political interests. 

I am just finishing Max Hastings book Viet Nam, An Epic History of a Tragic War.  I don't think it's the definitive book on the war but it's pretty good.  The chapters about the war under Nixon and Kissinger talk about Realpolitik.  Basically Nixon and Kissinger were complete bastards and their guiding principle for their conduct of the war, was to get Nixon re-elected in 1972, fuck the South Vietnamese.  No lie, no duplicity, no amorality was too much for that pair in pursuit of their goal.  In many ways the South Vietnamese were responsible for the loss to the communists but that was no reason for Nixon and Kissinger to directly cause 100s of thousands of unnecessary deaths to the both sides in that war.  "Peace with honor" indeed.  Of course, Nixon did himself in anyway, because that's just how he rolled. 

By the same token, the Allies could have treated Poland much better than they did even though Stalin basically had them over a barrel.  The Allies basically provided the barrel and bent over it, and then let Stalin rape them, if you will excuse my rather crude metaphor.  

The US and Great Britain just hated to take casualties and if you are in a major war to save the world, that's maybe not the best way to conduct yourself.  Because the victors write the history, the Allies covered themselves with glory at war's end and collected the praise.  But not without a price.  Now that more than 70 years have past and the principles during the war are long dead, the truth is slowly being written.  While much good was done, and Hitler needed to be stopped, the Allies weren't exactly the white knights they claimed to be.  They could have done more fighting, and definitely fought more effectively.  The long sometime disastrous, , Africa Campaign (Tobruk, Kaserine), the near debacle on the Italian peninsula, the Allies never made it past Rome, etc.  Montgomery didn't exactly cover himself in glory during the war although if you believe him, he won it single handedly with his timid tactics and absolute aversion to casualties.  The Allies slowly became aware of what was happening to the Jews in the death camps, yet chose not to meaningfully act against it.  Realpolitik again.  Stalin wasn't exactly invincible, Hitler nearly proved that.  The Allies purposely relied on Stalin to neutralize the Nazis while the US provided the Soviets material assistance, they knew full well they were making a deal with the devil.  Of course, Realpolitik. 

Was it worth the cost?  The end of WW II brought down the Nazis but ushered in the Cold War and the ensuing and lasting damage to Eastern Europe.  The the answer will vary depending if you ask a Brit or an American or a Pole or a Belorussian.  Perhaps Patton was right.  We had plenty of troops in Europe, we had proven atomic weapons and the Soviets didn't.  Maybe we should have just neutralized the Soviet Union right then and there, they were pretty tired and had lost millions of soldiers and even more civilians. 

Today, the mighty once feared Soviet Union is gone, and eastern Europe is mostly free from tyranny.  Yet there is an ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine, Putin is s virtual dictator in Russia and they still have plenty of nuclear weapons.  Was that the best possible outcome of WW II?  It's hard to say.  

National leaders apparently love to send their military off to war.  War is after all an extension of foreign policy.  But the political leaders often interfere with the military leaders (which is their right) and powerful countries don't always prevail in a decisive manner.  Witness the Korean war, the Vietnam war, the two wars in Iraq and the war in Afghanistan, just to cite the less than glorious post WW II US examples.  We might have won some of those wars tactically but politically they were all failures, at least to the host countries. War is merely a means to an end, so the victories don't really matter much if the result is political turmoil.  Generals often say the political leaders wouldn't let them win because of politics.  That's a non-starter, since all wars are political.  Is that a result of Realpolitik too?  Maybe it's time to reexamine the idea of Realpolitik, it looks like a bad excuse to me.  Maybe a good start is to take war off of the table as a political tool.  Not that that will ever happen.

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11 minutes ago, Curious said:

Would you have the same attitude if someone here expressed racist or anti-Semitic views?  Would you expect only people from that race or religion to object?  

Wow, that's a might leap. 

I wasn't objecting to whatshisname's defense of NorBowGirl at all.  What I was objecting to was his extremely condescending, vomit inducing, saccharine laced way of attempting to defend her honor, as though she required some white knight like him to help. That's demeaning.  The things I said in my OP about her, in which I impulsively answered her unwarranted attack on me in anger, I quickly, and almost immediately apologized for.  He would have been much better off if he had just said, "Hey Ed leave the bitch alone", I would have respected that.

I don't think I was at all demeaning or sexist in my 2nd lengthy post at all.  Perhaps a trifle sarcastic at times but even then not much.  I was purposely sarcastic in the post that you are commenting on because the person that wrote it was just too over the top in my opinion.  "A magical experience!"  As though the only way to respect a woman or have a true relationship is to sail with her.  Good for him, I don't care.

Do you see?

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1 hour ago, Ed Lada said:

Perhaps Patton was right.  We had plenty of troops in Europe, we had proven atomic weapons and the Soviets didn't.  Maybe we should have just neutralized the Soviet Union right then and there, they were pretty tired and had lost millions of soldiers and even more civilians.

Sure - probably could have done it.

But then what? Occupy the gigantic fucker?

Russia is too huge to be defeatable.

Patton was probably the single best fighting General in the war but he was a mad dog and had to be kept on a very short leash.

His car accident right after the war was as good a career move as Elvis's dying was.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:
2 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

Perhaps Patton was right.  We had plenty of troops in Europe, we had proven atomic weapons and the Soviets didn't.  Maybe we should have just neutralized the Soviet Union right then and there, they were pretty tired and had lost millions of soldiers and even more civilians.

Sure - probably could have done it.

But then what? Occupy the gigantic fucker?

Russia is too huge to be defeatable.

Patton was probably the single best fighting General in the war but he was a mad dog and had to be kept on a very short leash.

His car accident right after the war was as good a career move as Elvis's dying was.

Adgreede, we hade capabillitey of donig that.  Buttte no superiorres bitte the hooke.  Pattone clamed to be reincarnatte, so we our notte realley siurre who the mad dogge actiuallitey wase,.  Asa formere llgionairre he felle into same trappe that brouht abote Hadian's Walle, occupye, occupye, occupye.  And we no from the 'Occupye Walle St." moovementte, thhat dossente workes.  I thick the fatalle car accidentte ala "Eddie and thew Cruisieres" was teh onley moove left to hime.  I beleive hime and Tito wearre goode frendes, so he maye of ended up theire.  Butte wearre notte suppoested to no that.                                                       :)

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Sure - probably could have done it.

But then what? Occupy the gigantic fucker?

Russia is too huge to be defeatable.

Patton was probably the single best fighting General in the war but he was a mad dog and had to be kept on a very short leash.

His car accident right after the war was as good a career move as Elvis's dying was.

Taking Patton's advice would have been a bad move.

The problem is not winning the war it's winning the peace...WWI demonstrated that. After WWII bringing a defeated Germany, Japan, and Italy inside the tent was a remarkable achievement. Not replicated since.

It's not clear that would have been possible with Russia. It's not even clear the US could have defeated Russia - Napoleon and Hitler if around might have had some advice on that. The US could have won the set pieces but then what? The US home front would not have supported a Stalingrad like engagement.

Subsequent efforts in Korea, and Vietnam suggest that mere throw weight is not enough to win. The US certainly has not won the peace in Iraq, arguably Iran has. The US hasn't even been able to pacify Afghanistan about 1/35th the size of Russia...

Arguably the great tragedy was failing to flood Russia with aid and institutional support right after the cold war and the collapse of the soviet union - that was probably a point in time the US could have won the peace.

 

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Sure - probably could have done it.

But then what? Occupy the gigantic fucker?

Russia is too huge to be defeatable.

Patton was probably the single best fighting General in the war but he was a mad dog and had to be kept on a very short leash.

His car accident right after the war was as good a career move as Elvis's dying was.

The Soviet Union, or Russia for that matter does have a size advantage, but there isn't much east of Moscow and especially in the north part of the country.  Besides, the object would be regime change, not to babysit them.  Nobody much like Stalin, not even his closest associates.  Ruling by terror doesn't encourage a lot of loyalty.  Maybe if the Allies killed uncle Joe, it would have been possible to install a more reasonable government.  You know like we did in Iraq.  It would have been in all of Europe's best interests to try to encourage a better system there, so they would have helped, and I think the average Soviet comrade would have been ready for something better too.  It's fun to speculate anyway.

Living in a former Warsaw Pact country for the last 11 years, has shown me how almost 45 years (1947-1991) of communism has impacted life here.  I am also right across the river from what was East Germany.  The difference between the two parts of Germany is still very, very noticeable.  And the folks in the western part still look down on the Ossies.  The physical appearance might finally change but the impact on the culture and the peoples minds will take generations to erase, even after all of the people that actually lived under it are gone.  The war inflicted terrible damage and the aftermath was damaging in a different way but also severe and lasted much longer than the war. The communists affected many more generations of people.

I worked on the kaserne that contained the hospital where Patton died.  The hospital was still there and still in use, and the HQ for the US Army Europe Medical Command, which is where I worked was across the street..  As a history buff, I liked that.  The room Patton died in was part of the radiology department when I was there. The US Army left Heidelberg around 2013 or so.  Last time I was there, the kaserne was abandoned, pretty much untouched and not being used, maybe that's changed now, I don't know. The intersection where the assassination accident happened was near Mannheim, which isn't far from Heidelberg. 

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21 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

The Soviet Union, or Russia for that matter does have a size advantage, but there isn't much east of Moscow and especially in the north part of the country.  Besides, the object would be regime change, not to babysit them.  Nobody much like Stalin, not even his closest associates.  Ruling by terror doesn't encourage a lot of loyalty.  Maybe if the Allies killed uncle Joe, it would have been possible to install a more reasonable government.....

I think that is really the key question...could the US have won over the Russian population. I suspect that the use of force by a former ally might not have been that effective a propaganda tool...you probably have better insight into that

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10 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

Adgreede, we hade capabillitey of donig that.  Buttte no superiorres bitte the hooke.  Pattone clamed to be reincarnatte, so we our notte realley siurre who the mad dogge actiuallitey wase,.  Asa formere llgionairre he felle into same trappe that brouht abote Hadian's Walle, occupye, occupye, occupye.  And we no from the 'Occupye Walle St." moovementte, thhat dossente workes.  I thick the fatalle car accidentte ala "Eddie and thew Cruisieres" was teh onley moove left to hime.  I beleive hime and Tito wearre goode frendes, so he maye of ended up theire.  Butte wearre notte suppoested to no that.                                                       :)

Very interesting Snaggs, very interes

 

3 minutes ago, KC375 said:

Taking Patton's advice would have been a bad move.

The problem is not winning the war it's winning the peace...WWI demonstrated that. After WWII bringing a defeated Germany, Japan, and Italy inside the tent was a remarkable achievement. Not replicated since.

It's not clear that would have been possible with Russia. It's not even clear the US could have defeated Russia - Napoleon and Hitler if around might have had some advice on that. The US could have won the set pieces but then what? The US home front would not have supported a Stalingrad like engagement.

Subsequent efforts in Korea, and Vietnam suggest that mere throw weight is not enough to win. The US certainly has not won the peace in Iraq, arguably Iran has. The US hasn't even been able to pacify Afghanistan about 1/35th the size of Russia...

Arguably the great tragedy was failing to flood Russia with aid and institutional support right after the cold war and the collapse of the soviet union - that was probably a point in time the US could have won the peace.

 

Some good points there.  I believe one reason some kind of peace has prevailed among the world's superpowers is that Europe lived through two very devastating world wars within a short time.  The folks in the US just can't comprehend the impact of that kind of thing.  The deaths of 10s of millions of people, and years of suffering during and after.  I think Europe finally learned a lesson, and the results are seen to this day.  Not to get too political but Trump and his rants about NATO, while having a little impact concerning cost sharing, shows his ignorance when he never ceases to tell everyone ho w[powerful our military and nuclear capabilities are.  If your only tool is a hammer and all that.

The US only threw a fraction of it's weight around in Korea and particularly Vietnam.  The Chinese intervention in Korea scared the shit out of the US and directly influenced the conduct of the Vietnam war.  The funny thing is in Vietnam, the Russians really didn't want that war and were quite afraid of what Nixon especially might do, something that Nixon cultivated, he wanted them to think he was a little crazy.  The Chinese would have been happier to and had no intentions of doing anything more than provide a lot of logistical support.

The problem the US has is committing to a real war, meaning maximum effort and resources, which should, if you are going to fight any war large or small, be the only way to fight.  But that takes political will, which is a very real problem.  Not accepting that air power alone won't win wars, let alone the peace was another obstacle.  Rumsfeld is to blame for the a lot of the debacle of the 2nd war in Iraq.  By doing it with as few troops as possible, it was impossible to control the events when combat was over.  I worked at the US Army HQ in Europe before, during and after that war and I had a high level view of the war and access to classified information that the average person didn't have.  It was quite interesting.   But we should have never been there the 2nd time anyway. 

Afghanistan is like a much more mountainous Vietnam, it's real difficult if not impossible to win a war in a rugged country against dedicated insurgents, and with no real military 'center of gravity.  The definition in military terms of a center of gravity is: "The source of power that provides moral or physical strength, freedom of action, or will to act." Thus, the center of gravity is usually seen as the "source of strength".  There aren't really many sources of a physical CoG in Afghanistan in terms of industry and infrastructure. The Afghanistan terrain allows significant freedom of action, they could usually choose where and when to fight, in spite of our technological advantages.   The others are more addressing the character of the people and the Afghans are hard to beat there because of their history of many conflicts against larger, better equipped enemies. 

Yes, we probably missed the boat in the early days of the downfall of the USSR, but don't forget it was that very action that led to the US to be able to spend a lot of money and resources on the 1st war in Iraq.  The Army in Europe was basically packed up and shipped down there because the main threat to Europe disappeared almost overnight.  Most of the troops that came from the US forces in Europe returned directly to CONUS after the war.  Plus the fall of the Soviet Union happened so fast and almost everybody didn't see it coming (including the Soviets) so there was no real coherent plan that could have been quickly implemented.  The Pentagon creates, revises and maintains any number of OPLANS, that wasn't one of them.  It took about 2 years to plan a relatively simple war in Iraq the 2nd time around, which had a pretty good blueprint already developed in OPLAN 1003V after all.  In Europe, the Army leadership was already reviewing OPLAN 1003V about a month or two after 9/11.  Any effort such as you suggest for the former Soviet Union, with it's size and complexity, would be a huge job and require a lot of careful, complex planning to be at all effective.  The Marshall plan in Europe had the advantage first of all in having George Marshall and also several years of war to plan the peace, as well as a lot of manpower on the ground at the end of the combat, and a lot of the logistics already well established.  Fighting a war is exciting but its the often boring, and un-glamorous logistics effort that win wars and the peace.  And in eastern Europe, one could make a very good case that the war there didn't really end until 1947.  At least a million people died in those 2 post war years in eastern Europe, possibly more.

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23 minutes ago, KC375 said:

I think that is really the key question...could the US have won over the Russian population. I suspect that the use of force by a former ally might not have been that effective a propaganda tool...you probably have better insight into that

Well, the Soviets were an 'Ally' in name only from the beginning.  Don't forget too, until the Germans fucked over Stalin, which he never saw coming, Hitler and Stalin were 'Allies'.  That was the main reason the Germans made it so far during operation Barbarosa in 1941.  Stalin was shitting his pants for some months and some say he was even suicidal although I don't know if that's credible.  The Germans, like Napoleon were in view of Moscow before the tide turned in the Soviets favor and a lot of that was due to Hitler's overruling his mostly competent and sometimes brilliant generals.  The Soviet Army had very few competent leaders, just a lot of manpower and weapons.  One difference is Stalin often listened to his generals, Hitler often didn't.

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Russia defeated the Nazis based on the sheer area of land and volume of manpower at their disposal helped in no small part by the T-34 tank. Hitler was the architect of four massive errors that thankfully doomed the Nazis to history. His first mistake was starting a two front war despite so often saying that that was something that would never succeed based on his own view of WWI. The second was in his decision to divert armies to the Caucasian oil fields after Japan let them down by bombing Pearl Harbour (and dragging the US into the war) instead of the Nazi favoured plan for them to invade Southern Russia. He then failed to anticipate the need for adequate winter clothing and equipment for a campaign he thought would last mere weeks over the summer. This was all finished off with a final nail in the coffin by sacrificing an entire army of a 1/4 of a million men at Stalingrad for no other reason than ego and pride.

Had the Americans decided to turn on Russia immediately after the war, I think they would have won. They would have won because they had nukes in the pipeline and had demonstrated, in hindsight, they were prepared to use them. The US also had a much greater manufacturing capacity for war materials.

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If you want to understand Poland:

https://www.amazon.com/Bloodlands-Europe-Between-Hitler-Stalin/dp/0465031471

TLDR; Poland had no natural land or sea barriers and was sandwiched in between two dictators that really only ever agreed on one thing, they wanted every last Pole dead :o

Also note that the Ukrainians were ready to jump on the Nazi bandwagon and go after Stalin, whom they utterly hated. Soon enough they found out the Nazis were more or less the same thing as Russians :rolleyes: Hitler squandered a resource that might have won him the war. Another thing you will learn in that book is prisoners who made it to the concentration camps were the lucky ones! Large numbers were just shot were they were found or starved to death one way or another.

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1 hour ago, Snaggletooth said:

Adgreede, we hade capabillitey of donig that.  Buttte no superiorres bitte the hooke.  Pattone clamed to be reincarnatte, so we our notte realley siurre who the mad dogge actiuallitey wase,.  Asa formere llgionairre he felle into same trappe that brouht abote Hadian's Walle, occupye, occupye, occupye.  And we no from the 'Occupye Walle St." moovementte, thhat dossente workes.  I thick the fatalle car accidentte ala "Eddie and thew Cruisieres" was teh onley moove left to hime.  I beleive hime and Tito wearre goode frendes, so he maye of ended up theire.  Butte wearre notte suppoested to no that.                                                       :)

Forgotte to mentione what Ike caulled the "military-industrial complex", thay diddente licke Pattone eithere an wantned hime oute.  GSP sawe the ritteng on the walle, anddessided to playe balle.   They 'dissapearred hime" as Hellere letter explained in C-22.                               :)

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8 minutes ago, Toecutter's Ghost said:

Russia defeated the Nazis based on the sheer area of land and volume of manpower at their disposal helped in no small part by the T-34 tank. Hitler was the architect of four massive errors that thankfully doomed the Nazis to history. His first mistake was starting a two front war despite so often saying that that was something that would never succeed based on his own view of WWI. The second was in his decision to divert armies to the Caucasian oil fields after Japan let them down by bombing Pearl Harbour (and dragging the US into the war) instead of the Nazi favoured plan for them to invade Southern Russia. He then failed to anticipate the need for adequate winter clothing and equipment for a campaign he thought would last mere weeks over the summer. This was all finished off with a final nail in the coffin by sacrificing an entire army of a 1/4 of a million men at Stalingrad for no other reason than ego and pride.

Had the Americans decided to turn on Russia immediately after the war, I think they would have won. They would have won because they had nukes in the pipeline and had demonstrated, in hindsight, they were prepared to use them. The US also had a much greater manufacturing capacity for war materials.

I agree with the part about the US and the Soviets after the war, but we can only speculate.  Americans were pretty tired of the war by then, they wanted their boys home.  My father was one of them, although he was in Italy, luckily.

The first part is essentially correct, but it's really difficult to condense a very large and complex war into 4 simple reasons for the Nazi's defeat.  War, like most hings in life is a closed system.  If you have huge bowl of marbles, you push one marble, every other marble in the bowl will move in response.  The generalities are correct but there were many other moving parts that played a large role. 

If Hitler wan't so obsessed with the 'Jewish question', look how much manpower and valuable resources could have been devoted to fighting the war.  And it remained a priority right up until the final days of the war.  Just one example.  

I also believe that the physical size of Russia wasn't as important as many believe.  There wasn't much of Russia east of the Urals worth anything.  Stalin however had already moved a bit of the Soviet industry there for protection, but they didn't really need to worry as it turned out.  Other than that if Hitler had taken Moscow, that would have been a serious blow to the Soviet morale, the idea of Hitler sitting in the Kremlin would have been horrible to them.  The Soviets certainly had an edge with manpower and supplies although the Americans provided an awful lot of trucks and similar equipment to uncle Joe, allowing them to focus on tank and gun production. 

So you see it isn't quite that simple.

 

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8 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

Forgotte to mentione what Ike caulled the "military-industrial complex", thay diddente licke Pattone eithere an wantned hime oute.  GSP sawe the ritteng on the walle, anddessided to playe balle.   They 'dissapearred hime" as Hellere letter explained in C-22.                               :)

It would be really nice if we really knew what really happened to 'Georgie'.  Maybe it was just an unfortunate accident.

He certainly knew how to fight, no doubt about that.  The Battle of the Bulge would have been different if it weren't for Patton, although the weather finally clearing to allow American close air support also helped to turn the tide.  

There was no way the Germans were going to take Antwerp or be able to hold it but the moral victory would have rocked the Allies, they certainly hadn't expected such a strong offensive by an enemy that was supposedly on it's last legs.  

Those damned Germans certainly knew how to fight too, right up to the final 'Battle for Berlin'.

Out manned, and out gunned for pretty much the entire war, they conquered and held more of mainland Europe (all of it for all practical intents and purposes) in a shorter amount of time than any other army ever did.  And a lot tried.

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4 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

Out manned, and out gunned for pretty much the entire war, they conquered and held more of mainland Europe (all of it for all practical intents and purposes) in a shorter amount of time than any other army ever did.  And a lot tried.

Adgrrede, they kinda inventted the fielde.  We our getteng into thet "Winneng the Pease"  therrey.  It hase beene a thorney isse fiorre loungue time.              :)

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How did we go from enjoying a story about a charter skipper banging the decky to discussing WW2?

Focus people.

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3 hours ago, KC375 said:

The US home front would not have supported a Stalingrad like engagement. Not a factor with nukes.

Arguably the great tragedy was failing to flood Russia with aid and institutional support right after the cold war and the collapse of the soviet union - that was probably a point in time the US could have won the peace. Stalin wouldn't let it happen.

Beating them in a fight at the time was eminently do-able but afterwards?

No chance.

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52 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

How did we go from enjoying a story about a charter skipper banging the decky to discussing WW2?

Focus people.

shhhh. For once, there's a really interesting well-reasoned discussion going on. :-D

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10 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

KC375 said: Arguably the great tragedy was failing to flood Russia with aid and institutional support right after the cold war and the collapse of the soviet union - that was probably a point in time the US could have won the peace.

Sloop said:

Stalin wouldn't let it happen.

You mean Gorby? After cold war not after WWII.

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To get back on track, and if anyone else is still here, did they ever hear the story of a well known St. Pete boat builder who was delivering one of his larger boats to the Ft. Liqourdale Boat show, and sank it? Apparently he took a nice lady on the trip, put the boat on AP, and went down in the aft cabin. He surely hit bottom somewhere, and I believe the boat sank, a no show, and probably a lot of laughter instead.

I do believe the story is true, as said boat builder was playing with my girlfriend's pussy and cat during the dinner when they confided this story in me.

Out of respect for the now deceased person's family I will not mention his name, but with several posters from that area and era, we might get this confirmed, with a bit more detail if possible.

Anybody?

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

You mean Gorby? After cold war not after WWII.

I misread the post I responded to but that too - Two great opportunities missed.

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7 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

By the same token, the Allies could have treated Poland much better than they did even though Stalin basically had them over a barrel.  The Allies basically provided the barrel and bent over it, and then let Stalin rape them, if you will excuse my rather crude metaphor.  

That was one of the most blatant examples of a lack of insight in a post war theater that ever played out for the Allied Forces. They wouldn’t have expected that outcome since they were so optimistic about restoring the world to its “former”glory. 

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3 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

as said boat builder was playing with my girlfriend's pussy and cat during the dinner

This point requires a tad more detail. 

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34 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

This point requires a tad more detail. 

Eh, no imagination?

From my end of a long dining table, it really looked like he was rubbing his hand between my girl's legs. When I got up to smash his face I noticed the pussycat sitting on her lap and he was in fact stroking the cat, or maybe both. Anyway, I gave him a pass, but kept an eye on him.

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1 minute ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Eh, no imagination?

From my end of a long dining table, it really looked like he was rubbing his hand between my girl's legs. When I got up to smash his face I noticed the pussycat sitting on her lap and he was in fact stroking the cat, or maybe both. Anyway, I gave him a pass, but kept an eye on him.

That was not at all what I was imaging. I must stop watching so much porn.

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9 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

If you want to understand Poland:

https://www.amazon.com/Bloodlands-Europe-Between-Hitler-Stalin/dp/0465031471

TLDR; Poland had no natural land or sea barriers and was sandwiched in between two dictators that really only ever agreed on one thing, they wanted every last Pole dead :o

Also note that the Ukrainians were ready to jump on the Nazi bandwagon and go after Stalin, whom they utterly hated. Soon enough they found out the Nazis were more or less the same thing as Russians :rolleyes: Hitler squandered a resource that might have won him the war. Another thing you will learn in that book is prisoners who made it to the concentration camps were the lucky ones! Large numbers were just shot were they were found or starved to death one way or another.

I have that book, it is very good.  I am not sure if the people that made it to the camps were always luckier than the ones that were murdered on the spot.  I have read numerous books on the history of Poland during the war, and about it's entire existence, and have lived in Poland for 11 years now.  I understand Poland pretty  well.  ;)

In the aftermath of WWII the histories that were being written weren't very good.  The British had kind of cornered the market on writing the history of the war, they have a long tradition of historians chronicling the Empire and all that.  Of course the books were written in a way that glorified the bumbling Brits conduct in the war.  The deification of Churchill and Montgomery, Dunkirk, etc.  Most of it sucked.  The Americans had William Manchester and a few others, that wrote popular histories, they were pretty much like the Brits.  Many of the books were not scholarly efforts, lacking deep analysis, and detail, necessary for good history, but it isn't always easy reading.  They were written for mass consumption, long on heroic excitement and short on objective, factual viewpoints.

Because of the cold war and the Iron Curtain, the war in eastern Europe was pretty much ignored in the west, they would mention the eastern front and Stalingrad and of course the Holocaust but not much else.  They wrote about the Jewish Ghetto uprising but not the Warsaw Uprising.  The victorious US and Great Britain didn't loathe the Poles and Ukrainians et al,  like the Soviets and the Germans, they just ignored them pretty much. 

Nobody gave the Soviets credit for winning the war, which they pretty much did.  Even after Stalin's death in 1952, it wasn't good form to say anything nice about the Soviets because of the Cold War.  So the history of the largest and bloodiest theater of the war never got a lot of notice.  It was also difficult for historians to get any material about the eastern front because the Soviets wouldn't allow access to their archives to historians from the free world.

After the fall of the Soviet Union, for a brief time access was allowed to many documents, rich with information about the Soviets activities during the war.  Historians flocked to Moscow, getting finally getting their hands on a vast treasure trove of material.  Unfortunately after about a year, the archives were closed up again, but at least historians had a fair amount of material on the Soviet actions during the war

In the '90s, with the end of the Cold War, and the passage of time, and the passing of most of the principles during the war, the first really good, objective and accurate histories began to be written.  The British were still producing many historians, but the new generation who hadn't been around during the war or the Empire, led the charge with some very good work.  Anthony Beevor, Martin Gilbert, Richard Overy and Norman Davies, just to name a few.  The American authors such as Timothy Snyder (the author of Bloodlands), Richard Evans, and others are also excellent writers.

In my opinion, the best of the 'new generation' is the Brit, Norman Davies.  He is an expert on the history of eastern Europe and Poland in particular.  Davies is married to a Polish woman, and he has authored the definitive history of Poland titled God's Playground, a very apt title indeed.  The book chronicles Poland's turbulent and often overlooked history;  The glory days of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the horrors of WW II, and the Solidarity movement that helped to bring down the Iron Curtain.  His book Rising '44 presents an incredibly detailed history of the Warsaw Uprising, bringing to light one of the most ignored, and heroic efforts of resistance against the Nazis during the war.  It is almost 800 pages long including the index and notes, but absolutely worth the time to read it.  I highly recommend it  If you want to read one overview of WW II in Europe, you can't go wrong with Davie's excellent Europe at War.  He has also written a very good overview of the entire history of Europe in, Europe, a History.  It isn't for the casual reader, but it is full of fascinating history about the continent that shaped many of the western world's most important events.  Davies is one of the rare historians that writes in an interesting, compelling style, yet presents a wealth of well researched, objective information that isn't boring.  I have read many of his books and they have all been excellent.  (You're welcome Norman, you can send me that autographed copy of God's Playground any time you like.)

So Poland has a very rich and fascinating and often terrible history.  In the US Poles are often the butt of cruel jokes, at least that was the case where I grew up in the Rust Belt, and where many Polish immigrants settled including my paternal grandfather and my paternal grandmother's parents.  Given that history and the fact that I married a Polish woman and live in Poland, my viewpoint might not be completely objective.  But I think it is an indisputable fact that if nothing else, given their turbulent history, Polish people are incredibly strong and stubborn survivors.  At the beginning of WW II half of the Jews of Europe lived in Poland.  Perhaps one reason the Israelis are so tenacious nowadays, is in part due to the fact that many of them carry Polish genes.

What was this thread about?

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15 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

It was about WWII aftermath and recovery.

It seems to me it all started with a horny boat captain.

Gotta love thread drift.  Drift hell, I think in this case the boat got caught in a vicious low, and was blown halfway across the Atlantic.

 

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How could a guy that could build a radio out of magnetic volcanic rocks and a coconut not be able to thatch a hole over in a boat?

 

paging basketcase and maybe that Zonker fellow

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55 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

I have that book, it is very good.  I am not sure if the people that made it to the camps were always luckier than the ones that were murdered on the spot.  I have read numerous books on the history of Poland during the war, and about it's entire existence, and have lived in Poland for 11 years now.  I understand Poland pretty  well.  ;)

I

 

By "you" I meant anyone on the thread. I know *you* know this stuff ;)

I will look into the books you mentioned. Some other things I learned about WW II that were not really commonly known from recent "non-cheerleading" books:

1. Far from a bunch of super-spies with incredible espionage and sabotage skills, the initial attempts by Britain to send spies to Nazi occupied Europe were incredibly inept to the point a Gestapo officer complained in a newspaper article that his opponents were no challenge at all and needed better training. The Brits and later on the OSS got better, but their start was amateur hour at best.

2. Far from a heroic resistance, France was amazingly willing to go along with the Germans. The resistance we all fondly remember from 100 books and movies didn't start until two things happened. First off the Wehrmacht got taken off running the occupation and replaced by the Gestapo and SS. Seems the Army boys likes drinking and whoring and the French were more than happy to take their money. It was a big party all around. The Gestapo decided no more Mr. Nice German and they got the worst psychopaths out of French jails to do their torturing. Then the Soviet Union got invaded and the communist underground cells suddenly had a clear enemy. THAT was when the resistance we all know about got cranked up. See Avenue of Spies: https://www.amazon.com/Avenue-Spies-Espionage-Resistance-Nazi-Occupied/dp/0804140057 

 

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19 hours ago, Earl Boebert said:

It was also a Polish team who did the critical mathematical analysis of the German Enigma cipher machine.

Earl

 

The Polish Cipher Bureau knew the Germans were using a new code in the early 1930s.  Then they obtained a military Enigma machine, mistakenly sent to Poland.  The Poles also bought a commercial version of the Enigma machine.  The brilliant Polish mathematician Marian Rejewski figured out the military machine, with some help from vital information provided by a French spy, and rewired the commercial machine to function like the military version. Then the Poles made several copies of the machine, known as the 'Polish Enigma Double', and in 1932 they broke the code.  The Polish team continued their vital work, with the Allied forces throughout the war. 

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26 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

The Polish Cipher Bureau knew the Germans were using a new code in the early 1930s.  Then they obtained a military Enigma machine, mistakenly sent to Poland.  The Poles also bought a commercial version of the Enigma machine.  The brilliant Polish mathematician Marian Rejewski figured out the military machine, with some help from vital information provided by a French spy, and rewired the commercial machine to function like the military version. Then the Poles made several copies of the machine, known as the 'Polish Enigma Double', and in 1932 they broke the code.  The Polish team continued their vital work, with the Allied forces throughout the war. 

The the British think they did it and Americans who watched that U-Boat movie think THEY did it :rolleyes:

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4 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

By "you" I meant anyone on the thread. I know *you* know this stuff ;)

I will look into the books you mentioned. Some other things I learned about WW II that were not really commonly known from recent "non-cheerleading" books:

1. Far from a bunch of super-spies with incredible espionage and sabotage skills, the initial attempts by Britain to send spies to Nazi occupied Europe were incredibly inept to the point a Gestapo officer complained in a newspaper article that his opponents were no challenge at all and needed better training. The Brits and later on the OSS got better, but their start was amateur hour at best.

2. Far from a heroic resistance, France was amazingly willing to go along with the Germans. The resistance we all fondly remember from 100 books and movies didn't start until two things happened. First off the Wehrmacht got taken off running the occupation and replaced by the Gestapo and SS. Seems the Army boys likes drinking and whoring and the French were more than happy to take their money. It was a big party all around. The Gestapo decided no more Mr. Nice German and they got the worst psychopaths out of French jails to do their torturing. Then the Soviet Union got invaded and the communist underground cells suddenly had a clear enemy. THAT was when the resistance we all know about got cranked up. See Avenue of Spies: https://www.amazon.com/Avenue-Spies-Espionage-Resistance-Nazi-Occupied/dp/0804140057 

 

Sorry.  :)

The French rivaled the British for wildly exaggerating their 'accomplishments' during the war.  At least the British didn't capitulate like the French. 

In 1939 the French Army was the largest, well equipped, most respected and powerful military force in all of Europe at the time.  Hitler feared and respected them.  Following the 8 month 'sitzkrieg' also know as the 'Phony War' after the invasion of Poland, ignoring his conservative generals, Hitler took a huge risk invading France via the Low Countries end run around the vaunted but useless Maginot line in 1940.  The Blitzkrieg tactic was born. 

The cocky French could read a map as well as anyone else, yet they ignored the obvious invasion route from the northeast via poorly defended Belgium.  A few German paratroopers landed on the top of the Maginot line to help neutralize it but with German attacking the rear of the poorly defended of the line, it was easily overcome.  So much for their 'impregnable' impressive barrier.  The German forces romped across France after the French rolled over and surrendered, and they pushed the small British Expeditionary Force to the beaches of Dunkirk.  One reason the Nazis didn't destroy the British at Dunkirk was that the Germans were pretty much exhausted at that point and needed some rest and resupply to be an effective fight force again.  So the British Army lived to fight another day.  If the French military actually fought the Nazis the history of the war would have been completely different.  Hitler had basically committed his entire military to the invasion, and if the French would have defeated them, which was entirely possible given their strength and numbers, Hitler's ambitions for the domination of Europe would have been ruined and Hitler would have been humiliated.  It was one of Hitler's most brilliant gambles.  Alas, unfortunately that didn't happen and the rest, as the say, is history.  ^_^

The French Resistance certainly did some damage to the Nazis, but not near as much as they would like us to believe.  To hear them tell it, just about every man woman and child in the country were valiantly fighting the Boche, not providing them with luxuries, wine women and song, which was closer to the truth.  Near the end of the war Hitler ordered the occupying German Army to destroy Paris but the general in charge of the occupation refused the order. 

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23 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

Sorry.  :)

In 1939 the French Army was the largest, well equipped, most respected and powerful military force in all of Europe at the time.  Hitler feared and respected them.  Following the 8 month 'sitzkrieg' also know as the 'Phony War' after the invasion of Poland, ignoring his conservative generals, Hitler took a huge risk invading France via the Low Countries end run around the vaunted but useless Maginot line in 1940.  The Blitzkrieg tactic was born. 

 

Well that turned out somewhat different didn't  ít.

 

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1 hour ago, Ed Lada said:

Sorry.  :)

The French rivaled the British for wildly exaggerating their 'accomplishments' during the war.  ...

One of the tragedies of the French resistance was how it undermined the credibility of the resistance in the low countries who where of a much higher caliber. Operation Market Garden might have gone differently had the offers of help by the locals been accepted.

"History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it." or as Churchill actually said it "For my part, I consider that it will be found much better by all Parties to leave the past to history, especially as I propose to write that history"

And in the US you had Hollywood writing the history of America's role. The USA was clearly an important player but once you add up the German casualties it is hard to claim you "won the war" unless you were fighting on the eastern front. I think the USA role in the Pacific was clearly significant. Popular history seems to have underplayed the role of China and at the end Russia in defeating Japan. I've seen some writing that suggests the role of Hiroshima and Nagasaki may be exaggerated. They certainly were powerful motivators but so was the pace of Russian advance in China...clearly better to accept American occupation.

330px-Manchuria_Operation_map-es.svg.png

Certainly