timz3818

Probably a bad idea: super cheap Farr 39 ML

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I found a Farr 39 ML listed on ebay (not my boat) with a starting bid of $8k. Looks like it needs a big refit (all gelcoat needs replaced), but there might be some value there if someone wants to do the work.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Farr-39ML/264563007119?hash=item3d992f1e8f:g:R1oAAOSwAGxd7n2z

Does anyone know the history of this boat? I think it's the one mauri pro sailing owned.

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Wow, that needs a ton of work. They are better off selling it for parts (rig alone is most likely worth more than starting bid) but it's totally doable to get it back to good condition if someone wanted to go thru the time/effort/expense.

It wont be such a deal after that though.

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Not much demand for big phrf boats that don't have a J on them anymore. Sold our well sorted out 1D35 last year for 40k.

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For $108K to $158K and 6 to 36 months, you will have a nice, simple boat with all new stuff.

I did something similar with my Olson 40: a total strip, gelcoat inside and out, then all new everything.

I like what I have, with about $120K into it. Started at $1 not $8k.

Its nice that I understand every single fastener in the entire boat, the entire electrical system (I've put in every inch of wire), the entire plumbing system, waste, electronics, etc. No mystery anywhere. Everything is new: every sail, winch, line, block, cleat, stopper, pump, switch, window, rudder, keel, keel floor, through hull, tank, head, hose, faucet, radio, light, electric propulsion motor, etc. is new. No deferred maintenance. No leaks. Everything works perfectly.

Well, a few things I have not yet finished, such as the stove, some 110v outlets, sprit, stern scoop, V-berth, folding counter in galley, dodger, some instruments, and dripless shaft seal, a better prop, but everything else is perfect. A few things took more than once to get perfect -- for example, I wasted a lot of time on a diesel engine before waking up and going electric -- but perfection has been achieved.

I could easily have bought a serviceable Olson 40 for a third as much, but it would have all sorts of gremlins as any non-new boat.

Just never think you will end up with a less expensive boat: Expect to spend a LOT more than the price of any used Farr MLs on the market.

I was about to build new. But I decided I really wanted an Olson 40, I just wanted a new Olson 40. That is what I have.

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Yup. Bad Idea.

Besides the fact that the yacht needed major repair before being left to rot for 4 years...

Free would be too much to pay.

 

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1 hour ago, carcrash said:

For $108K to $158K and 6 to 36 months, you will have a nice, simple boat with all new stuff.

I did something similar with my Olson 40: a total strip, gelcoat inside and out, then all new everything.

I like what I have, with about $120K into it. Started at $1 not $8k.

Its nice that I understand every single fastener in the entire boat, the entire electrical system (I've put in every inch of wire), the entire plumbing system, waste, electronics, etc. No mystery anywhere. Everything is new: every sail, winch, line, block, cleat, stopper, pump, switch, window, rudder, keel, keel floor, through hull, tank, head, hose, faucet, radio, light, electric propulsion motor, etc. is new. No deferred maintenance. No leaks. Everything works perfectly.

Well, a few things I have not yet finished, such as the stove, some 110v outlets, sprit, stern scoop, V-berth, folding counter in galley, dodger, some instruments, and dripless shaft seal, a better prop, but everything else is perfect. A few things took more than once to get perfect -- for example, I wasted a lot of time on a diesel engine before waking up and going electric -- but perfection has been achieved.

I could easily have bought a serviceable Olson 40 for a third as much, but it would have all sorts of gremlins as any non-new boat.

Just never think you will end up with a less expensive boat: Expect to spend a LOT more than the price of any used Farr MLs on the market.

I was about to build new. But I decided I really wanted an Olson 40, I just wanted a new Olson 40. That is what I have.

That's what all the cheap old beater naysayers overlook - when you're done you have effectively a new boat - or in the less extreme cases than yours, a largely new boat.

Not just a "less worn" boat which is what you get following their thinking of buying "better" in the first place.

But you gotta like the work. If you just write cheques for everything prepare to be impoverished.

Be interesting to know how those chunks were taken out of the back of the keel.

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I saw this boat earlier today as well and if I had the money...I'd take it on. Park the boat out here in Utah in a dirt lot for a Summer and the peeling gelcoat would probably jump off the hull for me. I was part (salesman) on a Waterline Systems complete redo of a Melges 30 gelcoat and it was a big project but that Farr 39ML would be a sweet boat afterwards. 

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Keel damage looks like fairing only, as it it's out easy to inspect for keel bolt or grid/frame damage. Are they sure it's gelcoat? Is it glass? Mark built great boats, better than Carroll, not sure why the comparison. I bet you could pai t it and get it back in the water for $50k if you were very involved, in a good way. Looks like a good deal for the right guy. Could make a great cruiser out of it.

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A lot easier to just paint it that to try again to get gel to stick.

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Peel the old gelcoat off. 545 high build primer, followed by 545 primer, followed by awlcraft 2000, in a simple explanation. 

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The old Black Knight, from MDR.  I sailed a couple of Cabo races with them back in the 90's.  When the brothers bought the boat it was immaculate. Not even 6 months later it looked poor.  Several years after that when we did the Cabo races, it was a little like driving a Yugo down a twisty mountain road with dodgy brakes and half a steering wheel.  It did not get any better.  By the time mauripro got a hold of it, well must have been a bit of a dumpster fire really.

For what it's worth though, down wind in breeze it goes well, just not necessarily where you expect it to go.

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1 hour ago, WCB said:

Peel the old gelcoat off. 545 high build primer, followed by 545 primer, followed by awlcraft 2000, in a simple explanation. 

and sanding. lots and lots and lots of sanding. and more high build. and sanding. buy shares in 3m.

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After you do all the work meantioned above just buy and install the Farr 40 mast for sale in the gear section. Install a shiny carbon sprit. Buy a bunch of Doyle sails and go tear it up with a well proven Farr hull shape while proudly saying F off to the J boat establishment. 

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1 hour ago, basketcase said:

and sanding. lots and lots and lots of sanding. and more high build. and sanding. buy shares in 3m.

Yeah...I left out the painful part, just left the fun stuff in.

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Depends. It would be fun for some friends who have a clue to fix, but to pay a yard - you’d better have more cash than the ed!  Still might be a challenge after A4 - the FT—10 repeat.  

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9 hours ago, Brain-O said:

Or you can pick this gem up for a steal

6245.png

more info or contact?

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8 hours ago, evenflow said:

Depends. It would be fun for some friends who have a clue to fix, but to pay a yard - you’d better have more cash than the ed!  Still might be a challenge after A4 - the FT—10 repeat.  

Agreed.  Ed should take this project on and document it on Anarchy getting and giving props to his advertisers. Money would be much better spent on this hull then all the money and time that was spent on that 6kt Santa Cruz SHitbox. 

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Sailed that boat when it was new and known as Predator. Was a light air weapon then. 

 

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those were fun boats, sailed on one here in maine. very quick in light to moderate air.  that being said: run for the fucking hills from that boat. 

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13 hours ago, Brain-O said:

Or you can pick this gem up for a steal

6245.png

We had one of these p.o.s. Thank god for hurricane Andrew

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That keel had to have been on the rocks for that damage.  Rear port stanchion is bent pretty well too.  I bet the boat was grounded and an insurance write off. Been in the yard since.

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Just wait until you put a moisture meter on it to see how much delam and wet core there is. That'll put you back 4 months, only if you work real hard at it.

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Well after the last photo on the listing showing a "Mauri Sails" sticker on the transom I wonder how that lines up with the following from Juan on Bookface. Either someone bought it off eBay or someone bought it from him and is trying to sell it on eBay?

image.png

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Sad.  If that used to be Black Night, I raced Pac Cup on that boat.  If I had the money I would take it on, but I don't so I won't.  Good luck to the seller!

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

That keel had to have been on the rocks for that damage.  Rear port stanchion is bent pretty well too.  I bet the boat was grounded and an insurance write off. Been in the yard since.

My understanding is the keel was dropped by trucking company when offloading. To my knowledge the boat has never been on the rocks. 

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36 minutes ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Just wait until you put a moisture meter on it to see how much delam and wet core there is. That'll put you back 4 months, only if you work real hard at it.

I’d bet you are wrong. This is a Lindsay built Epoxy boat. Not a moisture sponge like most J boats built in this era 

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7 minutes ago, mr32165 said:

My understanding is the keel was dropped by trucking company when offloading. To my knowledge the boat has never been on the rocks. 

Looks like there's a fracture where the bulb meets the fin as well.  Is a keel in that kind of condition salvageable?   

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45 minutes ago, mr32165 said:

Same fucking boat moron 

Its a joke you dumbass. This is the fucking asshole selling the boat in case you didnt notice. Let me give you some advice, get yourself a chainsaw because thats the only remedy for this hunk of shit.

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47 minutes ago, mr32165 said:

Same fucking boat moron 

Boy, nothing gets past you does it?

Well, other than humour and sarcasm anyway.

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run. away. fast. don't. look. back.

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On 12/11/2019 at 4:20 PM, carcrash said:

For $108K to $158K and 6 to 36 months, you will have a nice, simple boat with all new stuff.

I did something similar with my Olson 40: a total strip, gelcoat inside and out, then all new everything.

I like what I have, with about $120K into it. Started at $1 not $8k.

Its nice that I understand every single fastener in the entire boat, the entire electrical system (I've put in every inch of wire), the entire plumbing system, waste, electronics, etc. No mystery anywhere. Everything is new: every sail, winch, line, block, cleat, stopper, pump, switch, window, rudder, keel, keel floor, through hull, tank, head, hose, faucet, radio, light, electric propulsion motor, etc. is new. No deferred maintenance. No leaks. Everything works perfectly.

Well, a few things I have not yet finished, such as the stove, some 110v outlets, sprit, stern scoop, V-berth, folding counter in galley, dodger, some instruments, and dripless shaft seal, a better prop, but everything else is perfect. A few things took more than once to get perfect -- for example, I wasted a lot of time on a diesel engine before waking up and going electric -- but perfection has been achieved.

I could easily have bought a serviceable Olson 40 for a third as much, but it would have all sorts of gremlins as any non-new boat.

Just never think you will end up with a less expensive boat: Expect to spend a LOT more than the price of any used Farr MLs on the market.

I was about to build new. But I decided I really wanted an Olson 40, I just wanted a new Olson 40. That is what I have.

In this case, you'll sink 120K+ into it and have nice ride that will be worth about 80K when you're done, and considerably less each year thereafter.

Unfortunately.

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6 hours ago, mr32165 said:

I’d bet you are wrong. This is a Lindsay built Epoxy boat. Not a moisture sponge like most J boats built in this era 

There's two types of boats older than 10 years: Those with a known wet core, and, Those who don't know it yet.

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13 hours ago, bridhb said:

more info or contact?

People who must sell their boat by the end of the week generally don't put their whereabouts on the internet.

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9 hours ago, ROADKILL666 said:

We had one of these p.o.s. Thank god for hurricane Andrew

Wow!  That is some boat hate.  Care to share some insider info on what makes the DB's POS''s?  Thanks.

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On 12/11/2019 at 4:13 PM, Hitchhiker said:

The old Black Knight, from MDR.  I sailed a couple of Cabo races with them back in the 90's.  When the brothers bought the boat it was immaculate. Not even 6 months later it looked poor.  Several years after that when we did the Cabo races, it was a little like driving a Yugo down a twisty mountain road with dodgy brakes and half a steering wheel.  It did not get any better.  By the time mauripro got a hold of it, well must have been a bit of a dumpster fire really.

For what it's worth though, down wind in breeze it goes well, just not necessarily where you expect it to go.

Did running into the freighter help or hurt?

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20 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

People who must sell their boat by the end of the week generally don't put their whereabouts on the internet.

I did have one more day!

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7 minutes ago, silent bob said:

Did running into the freighter help or hurt?

Who knew that being asleep off the entrance to La Harbour was a bad idea?

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1 hour ago, charisma94 said:

That thing has been ridden hard and put away wet. Shame.

That's how you create a project boat. :D

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53 minutes ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

There's two types of boats older than 10 years: Those with a known wet core, and, Those who don't know it yet.

I guess mine never got your memo.

37 years and bone dry foam.

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What Farr 40 mast?

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12 hours ago, mr32165 said:

My understanding is the keel was dropped by trucking company when offloading. To my knowledge the boat has never been on the rocks. 

I would have thought the same thing but you can see a piece of fiberglass with the keel at the back of the flange from one of the pics in that yacht world link.

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Humm do-able if your are a boat builder and patiently wait for bits. No bids yet at $8k.! 

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10 hours ago, bridhb said:

Wow!  That is some boat hate.  Care to share some insider info on what makes the DB's POS''s?  Thanks.

They were a bitch to tune the rig,the rail was awful to be on for any amount of time,finding shaft zincs was a bitch because they used metric shafts and they were slow.I will give one they were bolt tough as hell we went through some shit in that boat and came out smelling like a rose.Forgot the foredeck was a bitch

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So as  IOR 3/4 tonners go they were pretty user friendly!

Do you remember how well it went to windward?

 

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7 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Humm do-able if your are a boat builder and patiently wait for bits. No bids yet at $8k.! 

a little duct tape - she'll be fine.

 image.png.7b020d67c382c943f1b76773e6bcb486.png

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8 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Humm do-able if your are a boat builder and patiently wait for bits. No bids yet at $8k.! 

Transporting it to it's next "land" home is going to cost a few grand.  Once you get the re-build done, (assuming there's nothing structural going on) then there's a new set of sails and the whole direction of "to" or "not to" do a whole set of A sails.  New inventory of sails has to be a solid $40k right?

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$40k would be on the low end for sails. A main alone is over $10k. Jibs are $6K+, Spinnakers are 5-6k as well.

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Looks like it's easily trailerable

...always look for the good in people's boats.

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Good news is it's readynfor transport, bad news is transport is probably $5k min as overlength spar.

Step is no big deal, plywood fix, they used foam to save weight.

$40k for sails is right but not if you convert it to cruiser.

Others are right, after all the upgrades and repairs it's probably 80k invested depending on yard bill. A clean version sold for 98k in 2017,  so it's a wash except for the guy who can put in the sweat equity.

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And the fact that you will have new sails, new paint and so forth - not just less worn ones.

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this isn't much different than rebuilding a really old house....

there comes a point where fixing it up to "new" costs a bunch more than tearing it down and starting new from scratch...

this boat is close to that point...hard to tell how bad the hull really is....but the keel looks pretty bad, and that's a good starting point as to what you will find in the rest of the project..

no way i'd take on this project, and i've built several boats from scratch....this looks like a ton of bad surprises...

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On 12/11/2019 at 1:45 PM, alphafb552 said:

What the hell took that bite out of the keel?

Moving keel around yard with a strap around that spot and the edge fractured off? Can see some distortion at the bite.

Edit- Someone will open that image on a screen larger than my phone and see the real issue and I'll look like (more of) an arsehole

 

 

s-l400.jpg

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Curious guys, what was the issue with the gel coat on these boats? Gel coat or substrate? I was involved with a powerboat build 20 plus years ago where the use of flame retardant resin was specified in the mechanical spaces to meet a certain insurance requirement. The owner/builder reasoned that if it was good enough for the engine room it was good enough for everything else and had the last hull lamination done with the FR resin. They didn't realize until the very end that the FR resin should have been applied after all structural work was complete. We hot melt glued small wood blocks around the perimeter of the cockpit to support the deck while we taped it in the deck from the top. When we knocked off the blocks to tape the bottom the resin came off with the blocks. At that point they had a very expensive piece of scrap FRP. 

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3 hours ago, GH41 said:

Curious guys, what was the issue with the gel coat on these boats? Gel coat or substrate? I was involved with a powerboat build 20 plus years ago where the use of flame retardant resin was specified in the mechanical spaces to meet a certain insurance requirement. The owner/builder reasoned that if it was good enough for the engine room it was good enough for everything else and had the last hull lamination done with the FR resin. They didn't realize until the very end that the FR resin should have been applied after all structural work was complete. We hot melt glued small wood blocks around the perimeter of the cockpit to support the deck while we taped it in the deck from the top. When we knocked off the blocks to tape the bottom the resin came off with the blocks. At that point they had a very expensive piece of scrap FRP. 

 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: ft lauderdale, fl
Posts: 1,289
 
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The concept was to build the boats using epoxy and balsa/divinycell coring and a gelcoat finish. Problem is that gelcoat (polyester) does not "stick" to epoxy. They could have built the boats in a mold with epoxy for strength but then would need to sand and prime for a paint (awlgrip/imron/etc) finish which would have been expensive.  The layup schedule started with polyester gelcoat in the mold after which they sprayed a "Tie Coat" which was supposed to bond the gelcoat to the epoxy resin which was layed up next, followed by the coring and reinforcements in certain areas of the hull/deck. One problem they overlooked was that the tie coat product they chose was water-soluble. Yes, if water came in contact with the tie coat it degenerated and the gelcoat had little to no adhesion to the hull.

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I don't know shit about the or these boats but recall building some of the rigs back in the day....

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No offense but epoxy does stick to properly prepared gelcoat(polyester). You stated the problems in your answer: likely lack of cure time for poly, if you do it traditionally you put the skin coat on tacky, epoxy smarter to wait for poly to cure more. Then crap tiecoat dooms it, duratek clear or primer (vinyls) work bettermas tiecoats or just let the poly cure then scuff sand and wipe then epoxy.

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The Gougeon's said that epoxy will stick to poly.

I think they know better than anyone so use their procedures..

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9 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

The Gougeon's said that epoxy will stick to poly.

It will.  You just have to scrub the amine blush off the surface of the cured epoxy before applying anything poly-based (such as gelcoat) on top of it.

The problem is, there's no great way to do that when laying up epoxy against gelcoat sprayed in a mold. 

 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, ExOmo said:

I don't know shit about the or these boats but recall building some of the rigs back in the day....

Omohundro in your tagline?

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Very different situation to carcrash and his Olson 40.  He wanted an Olson 40 for his long-term boat and was willing to put in the time/effort/money to get what for him was the perfect boat that he probably plans to die aboard (hopefully not for quite some time).    

To buy a boat because it looks like a deal is a fool's errand.  Figure out the boat(s) that tickle your fancy and it's likely that you will be able to choose from one that is Bristol or a project.  But either way, you will own a boat that serves your purpose vs convincing yourself that the 'deal' boat will work out somehow.  And anyone who buys a boat thinking they will flip it for a profit...seek therapy or consider rehab.  

On the subject boat, as others have said, there's no value other than parting it out.   

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1 hour ago, sledracr said:

It will.  You just have to scrub the amine blush off the surface of the cured epoxy before applying anything poly-based (such as gelcoat) on top of it.

The problem is, there's no great way to do that when laying up epoxy against gelcoat sprayed in a mold. 

 

 

 

 

No offense but you have reversed it. Agree in a large mold difficult so use a good (as in good) tiecoat.

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1 hour ago, sledracr said:

It will.  You just have to scrub the amine blush off the surface of the cured epoxy before applying anything poly-based (such as gelcoat) on top of it.

The problem is, there's no great way to do that when laying up epoxy against gelcoat sprayed in a mold.

????

Amine blush forms on the surface - as in rises - so it should end up on the inner surface of the laminate, not between the gel and first layer should it not?

If not then epoxy would seemingly not stick to anything.

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For polyester(gelcoat) the issue can be the wax added to help cure (by sealing the surface.) This is sometimes in the product and sometimes an additive.

Amine blush will stop gel coat sticking to epoxy but should not stop epoxy sticking to gelcoat. As SJB notes, the amine will migrate toward the open surface

 

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1 hour ago, JohnMB said:

For polyester(gelcoat) the issue can be the wax added to help cure (by sealing the surface.) This is sometimes in the product and sometimes an additive.

Amine blush will stop gel coat sticking to epoxy but should not stop epoxy sticking to gelcoat. As SJB notes, the amine will migrate toward the open surface

I built an iceboat using the Gougeon products and remember reading up on amine blush.  There was a procedure that sounded like scrubbing a bathroom to remove it between coats or you could recoat while it was still green.  I didn't enjoy getting up in the middle of the night to put another coat on but it worked.  

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Everything I've ever read or practiced says that simply washing with plain water is all that is required to eliminate the blush.

The only time I had a problem with amine blush was when I coated some ply berth tops I scrubbed them with water and detergent and then painted - got patches of fisheyes.

Never had it happen with plain water wash.

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Just out of curiosity; what happens if someone buys this boat and races it as a club racing boat without doing all this work? Does the boat sink and everyone drowns because the gelcoat is peeling?

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That'll happen at the dock the first time it's boarded.

That aside, there's a bunch of work - some quite expensive - just to get it home and reassembled.

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54 minutes ago, spankoka said:

Just out of curiosity; what happens if someone buys this boat and races it as a club racing boat without doing all this work? Does the boat sink and everyone drowns because the gelcoat is peeling?

1D35 in Newport area did just that a few years back. If I remember correctly they dry sailed the boat out of Sail Newport and won a lot of races as bigger and bigger chunks of gelcoat fell off the sides 

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I am just thinking that this boat could be made fit for purpose, in terms of a two month racing season, with primer slapped on wherever the gelcoat peeled. 

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Smoke them...

There is this new space age stuff called ( Flex Seal, Flex Tape, Flex Flexy Flex flex ...stuff..) Heck if aluminium foil works in space, patch and go race this thing.

In the old days a case of beer and a handle of rum would entice my crew to have this thing up and running in a weekend...no problem. Sails and rigging...you all could find a way to get around the course. Stop looking and start working. Plug in the power tools, mix up the bondo..and attack the problems. The time wasted explaining why you can't do a task is providing an opportunity to those who actually have a work ethic to succeed once again. 

Fast boat, smart team...you could win. 

Offshore, NOT! Or Not Yet !!! 

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