shanghaisailor

Youth America's Cup

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Well there goes the slander that foiling monohulls like the AC57 are one-trick ponies!

This newcomer for  the up-and-comers will do much to solidify support for monofoilers. And especially given the China connection.

Is there a strong whiff of incest here, in that RNZYS Commodore and owner of Yachting Developments Ian Cook has a dual role, with his company building the boats and  his club promoting and organizing the racing?

Seems a bit tricky but I for one hope they avoid the pitfalls and pull it off.

NOTE:  I originally posted this in another thread but thanks to SS this is the right place for it.

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I'd love to know more about this concept - like why does it need the centreboard? And is it ballasted? Can the boat capsize / be righted? Also, only 20 knots?? Etc.???

And with my critical design hat on, I'm bummed this wasn't more thoughtfully launched. The presentation of this Youth AC boat concept is pretty poor; The branding is terrible, renders look like low res. CAD screen shots, lack of information on the actual workings of the concept, etc. I prefer the AC over SailGP any day of the week and the minute I saw the headline I wanted to be blown away. Instead I feel a little embarrassed and like Russell and co. will be laughing at how juvenile this announcement is : (

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Wish they had gone for something like the Mule or Mini Moon, as in a half scale of the AC75. Canting mechanism probably would have made it prohibitively expensive though.

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3 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Wish they had gone for something like the Mule or Mini Moon, as in a half scale of the AC75. Canting mechanism probably would have made it prohibitively expensive though.

What makes you think this is going to be inexpensive? Probably at least a USD500,000 boat as is.

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7 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

Is there a strong whiff of incest here, in that RNZYS Commodore and owner of Yachting Developments Ian Cook has a dual role, with his company building the boats and  his club promoting and organizing the racing?

 

 

Definitely. Also, “The multi-leg event starts with a fleet racing seeding event in China in November 2020, followed by a match racing regatta in Auckland from February 18-23, 2021.” Do they inted to get a free ride on the Prada-sponsored AC/ACWS? Wonder if Bertelli’s thrilled about that

 

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I was looking for the Youth AC stuff in what I thought was the most recent AC36 Protocol, the October consolidated one. I did not see anything, just a mention of "special events" unspecified.

Am I looking in the wrong place? Or does the Youth America's Cup stuff from the AC35 Protocol #26 automatically carry over? 

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https://www.buzzsprout.com/392416/2241227-bar-karate-the-sailing-podcast-ep25-mark-somerville-md-persico-marine 

Bar Karate podcast episode 25, Mark talks about the 69F being used (by youths i think?) in Italy during the ACWS event next year and bringing them to Auckland at some stage. Around the 1 hour 10 mark. 

Designs look very similar to 69F, he also mentions an upcoming announcement about a European circuit for the class coming soon.

 

 

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17 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

Well there goes the slander that foiling monohulls like the AC57 are one-trick ponies!

This newcomer for  the up-and-comers will do much to solidify support for monofoilers. And especially given the China connection.

Is there a strong whiff of incest here, in that RNZYS Commodore and owner of Yachting Developments Ian Cook has a dual role, with his company building the boats and  his club promoting and organizing the racing?

Seems a bit tricky but I for one hope they avoid the pitfalls and pull it off.

NOTE:  I originally posted this in another thread but thanks to SS this is the right place for it.

Have you even seen the AC9F design?  It is nothing like the AC75’s.  

It is more like what everyone thought the “foiling monohull” should be like.  It has a retractable keel, the foils are raised and lowered like the AC50/F50 and the foils even have a bulb!  It is more a blend between the AC50 and the IMOAC’s like Hugo Boss.   And it is designed with ETNZ.
 

image.jpeg

I posted this reply in the other thread also.

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11 hours ago, sunseeker said:

What makes you think this is going to be inexpensive? Probably at least a USD500,000 boat as is.

Entry fee 115k NZD, plus a damage deposit of 25k NZD, includes 5x 2hour training periods and use of boat for the regatta.  Put that on top of travel, accom, coach cost and the purchase of a boat to train in and you're looking at a pretty large expense, even for the well funded clubs around the world with deep pockets. All for 4 youths to do 10-12 days racing. 

Cant imagine there being much of a second hand market unless NZ win the cup again and decide to keep the class for a follow up Youth AC

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With the china funding this may be a stepping stone to AC37 China entry.

New Zealand have to win first!

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Who was responsible for the absolutely awful front page editing? WTF! I read auto-translation french  all day but that was so fucking bad I had to read the actual Presser.  Get it together people , just because its called anarchy does not mean un-readable. Fuck.

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11 hours ago, Colomba said:

Will do more than 20 knots :D An IMOCA60 for around the buoys racing @ 50% size, radical stuff!

More advanced than an IMOCA60, as the AC9F has rudder elevators - which means it will fly more like the Proto Mini6.5, rather than drag its arse all over the ocean.

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On 12/13/2019 at 12:18 AM, sunseeker said:

What makes you think this is going to be inexpensive? Probably at least a USD500,000 boat as is.

You dont get much of a sailboat for $500k even in the production market. The support crew will cost twice that.

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6 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Been seen before and if this is AC trickle down it’s a design defeat with the inclusion of a keel.

 

A great performance boat for the youngsters' training, though. But one step from the AC75.

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2 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

A great performance boat for the youngsters' training, though. But one step from the AC75.

Seeing a 49er costs $50k hate to think what the Youth Cup boats will rock out at.

Still with a keel less a bucking bronco ride with dry pirouettes guaranteed.

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On 12/13/2019 at 10:56 AM, The_Alchemist said:

Have you even seen the AC9F design?  It is nothing like the AC75’s.  

It is more like what everyone thought the “foiling monohull” should be like.  It has a retractable keel, the foils are raised and lowered like the AC50/F50 and the foils even have a bulb!  It is more a blend between the AC50 and the IMOAC’s like Hugo Boss.   And it is designed with ETNZ.
 

image.jpeg

I posted this reply in the other thread also.

Yeah, Nah!  

Never said they were the same. 

 I was thinking in broad terms about monos that foil. You know, the boats that in the public eye look as if they will fall over without more underpinning.

This initiative, backed by the NZ marine industry and ETNZ, and staged on Auckland Harbour at Cup time, should do much to focus youth interest in sailing. 

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On 12/13/2019 at 11:02 AM, Countryclub said:

Who was responsible for the absolutely awful front page editing? WTF! I read auto-translation french  all day but that was so fucking bad I had to read the actual Presser.  Get it together people , just because its called anarchy does not mean un-readable. Fuck.

So easy to be a critic - takes absolutely no effort at all. 

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On 12/14/2019 at 11:56 AM, KiwiJoker said:

This initiative, backed by the NZ marine industry and ETNZ, and staged on Auckland Harbour at Cup time, should do much to focus youth interest in sailing.

Only very prosperous youths.

Ya know like dem that get round wearing Louis Vuitton day wear with accompanying Prada ditty bags all chauffeured to the RNZYS in mommies Range Rover Sport SVR.

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4 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Only very prosperous youths.

Ya know like dem that get round wearing Louis Vuitton day wear with accompanying Prada ditty bags all chauffeured to the RNZYS in mommies Range Rover Sport SVR.

But deano is an ole fella now...

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23 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

So easy to be a critic - takes absolutely no effort at all. 

Actually it takes a lot of restraint .

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On 12/13/2019 at 4:56 PM, KiwiJoker said:

Yeah, Nah!  

Never said they were the same. 

 I was thinking in broad terms about monos that foil. You know, the boats that in the public eye look as if they will fall over without more underpinning.

This initiative, backed by the NZ marine industry and ETNZ, and staged on Auckland Harbour at Cup time, should do much to focus youth interest in sailing. 

The AC75 is trying to include itself into the successful foiling monohull community, but it is a completely different animal.  With no keel and a shifting RM that can create extreme instability when changing modes, it is more of a one off oddity at this point.  The other monohulls are a natural extension of foiling by placing the foils underneath or off to the sides, not swinging them out like the leges of a lizard.  The AC75's can add some publicity to foiling monohulls, just as Frump adds publicity to the job of POTUS, but neither are good examples of how it should be done.

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20 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

The AC75's can add some publicity to foiling monohulls, just as Frump adds publicity to the job of POTUS, but neither are good examples of how it should be done.

i disagree

the AC 75's work

that other thing ... not so much

 

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So practically speaking, what does it take for a youngish man or woman to be on this  "pathway" to the AC?

--yacht club (not company) enters team

--entrance fee over $100k

--sailing team, support team

--some way to practice as a team. The supplied boat practice time is short iirc.

So how much does the yacht club  have to scrape up from members and sponsors?

Not really a path for including disadvantaged youth in performance sailing imho. Shit, SailGP Inspire might actually get some of those going on.

 

 

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Bah humbug ... the Youth AC on AC 50s was a huge success, wasn’t it?

 

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1 hour ago, Xlot said:

Bah humbug ... the Youth AC on AC 50s was a huge success, wasn’t it?

 

Errrr  I thought it was on the 45's?

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10 minutes ago, Woolfy said:

Errrr  I thought it was on the 45's?

Whatever. Anybody remember who won?

 

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18 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Whatever. Anybody remember who won?

 

Were they yacht club entries for the 45s? This one is going to be yacht clubs. Not sure if that is better.

I think the Inspire thing will likely do more to be inclusive across demographics. Ineos and the 1851Trust have been doing things that seem more inclusive.

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On 12/15/2019 at 10:06 PM, NeedAClew said:

So practically speaking, what does it take for a youngish man or woman to be on this  "pathway" to the AC?

--yacht club (not company) enters team

--entrance fee over $100k

--sailing team, support team

--some way to practice as a team. The supplied boat practice time is short iirc.

So how much does the yacht club  have to scrape up from members and sponsors?

Not really a path for including disadvantaged youth in performance sailing imho. Shit, SailGP Inspire might actually get some of those going on.

 

 

Sounds like whoever is going to do this needs some badass connections. Good thing is there are plenty of ~30ft foilers out in the world nowadays, so practice time is at least somewhat achievable?

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6 hours ago, Xlot said:

Whatever. Anybody remember who won?

Easy, you just need to look at team composition to see that most of those youth sailors have graduated to AC! Ahem

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The youth boats are NOT designed by ETNZ. ETNZ are 100% focused on their AC campaign not support/complimentary events.

If NZ 100k seems a lot to some  (split 4 ways ...) then some must have no idea how much international campaigns cost in senior classes. 

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5 hours ago, PJB said:

The youth boats are NOT designed by ETNZ. ETNZ are 100% focused on their AC campaign not support/complimentary events.

If NZ 100k seems a lot to some  (split 4 ways ...) then some must have no idea how much international campaigns cost in senior classes. 

Ok, you must know more than the people who put out the press release!  You should let them know so they can correct their mistake.

https://www.rnzys.org.nz/2019/12/12/youth-americas-cup-announcement/

The AC9F is a nine-metre foiling monohull which has been designed by New Zealand boat building company Yachting Developments (YDL) with valuable input from the Emirates Team New Zealand design team, Southern Spars, North Sails and significant support from the wider New Zealand Marine Industry highlighting the industries commitment to innovation.  The fleet of one-design boats will be built primarily at YDL in Auckland.

Sure, ETNZ didn't draw out all of the details of the boat plans, but they had major input and their yacht club is the lead sponsor.

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On 12/16/2019 at 3:35 PM, The_Alchemist said:

The AC75 is trying to include itself into the successful foiling monohull community, but it is a completely different animal.  With no keel and a shifting RM that can create extreme instability when changing modes, it is more of a one off oddity at this point.  The other monohulls are a natural extension of foiling by placing the foils underneath or off to the sides, not swinging them out like the leges of a lizard.  The AC75's can add some publicity to foiling monohulls, just as Frump adds publicity to the job of POTUS, but neither are good examples of how it should be done.

Thanks.  Guess what?  I get it.

At risk of repetition:   "I was thinking in broad terms about monos that foil. You know, the boats that in the public eye look as if they will fall over without more underpinning."

And another thought. The AC75 is NOT trying to include itself into the successful foiling monohull community,  It is ETNZ's response to an AC challenge in a monohull.

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15 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Ok, you must know more than the people who put out the press release!  You should let them know so they can correct their mistake.

https://www.rnzys.org.nz/2019/12/12/youth-americas-cup-announcement/

The AC9F is a nine-metre foiling monohull which has been designed by New Zealand boat building company Yachting Developments (YDL) with valuable input from the Emirates Team New Zealand design team, Southern Spars, North Sails and significant support from the wider New Zealand Marine Industry highlighting the industries commitment to innovation.  The fleet of one-design boats will be built primarily at YDL in Auckland.

Sure, ETNZ didn't draw out all of the details of the boat plans, but they had major input and their yacht club is the lead sponsor.

Endorsement, yes.  Design, not so much.

"monohull which has been designed by New Zealand boat building company Yachting Developments (YDL)"

Neither of us knows how much input. That's just PR hyperbole.

 

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17 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

Endorsement, yes.  Design, not so much.

"monohull which has been designed by New Zealand boat building company Yachting Developments (YDL)"

Neither of us knows how much input. That's just PR hyperbole.

 

Depends entirely on whether the boat was designed specifically for this event, or simply selected / evolved from available designs.

Clearly if ETNZ / RNYS had the design specifically made for their own event they would have had a huge amount of input.  If the design already existed prior for other purposes, then yeah pure PR fluff outside of a few tweaks to ensure the type of racing they wanted.

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On 12/18/2019 at 5:57 PM, The_Alchemist said:

Ok, you must know more than the people who put out the press release!  You should let them know so they can correct their mistake.

https://www.rnzys.org.nz/2019/12/12/youth-americas-cup-announcement/

The AC9F is a nine-metre foiling monohull which has been designed by New Zealand boat building company Yachting Developments (YDL) with valuable input from the Emirates Team New Zealand design team, Southern Spars, North Sails and significant support from the wider New Zealand Marine Industry highlighting the industries commitment to innovation.  The fleet of one-design boats will be built primarily at YDL in Auckland.

Sure, ETNZ didn't draw out all of the details of the boat plans, but they had major input and their yacht club is the lead sponsor.

Err yes I do. 
 

it’s a press release duh. 

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On 12/17/2019 at 11:17 PM, KiwiJoker said:

Endorsement, yes.  Design, not so much.

"monohull which has been designed by New Zealand boat building company Yachting Developments (YDL)"

Neither of us knows how much input. That's just PR hyperbole.

 

It says "with valuable input from the Emirates Team New Zealand design team" not endorsed!

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22 hours ago, PJB said:

Err yes I do. 
 

it’s a press release duh. 

So you are saying that RNZYS puts out false press releases and knows less about the details than some chumalung on SAAC

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16 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Looks like a Quant to me

Yea, maybe Dalton got Welbourn in on the project?  ;)  :rolleyes:  :D

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not in a million years!  Anyway, that cheapskate couldn't afford me:)   And fyi that looks nothing like a Quant of any shape or description...

 

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28 minutes ago, hughw said:

not in a million years!  Anyway, that cheapskate couldn't afford me:)   And fyi that looks nothing like a Quant of any shape or description...

 

Image result for muttley gif"

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3 hours ago, hughw said:

not in a million years!  Anyway, that cheapskate couldn't afford me:)   And fyi that looks nothing like a Quant of any shape or description...

 

I meant in concept alone mate! No insults intended!!

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On 12/17/2019 at 11:57 PM, The_Alchemist said:

Ok, you must know more than the people who put out the press release!  You should let them know so they can correct their mistake.

https://www.rnzys.org.nz/2019/12/12/youth-americas-cup-announcement/

The AC9F is a nine-metre foiling monohull which has been designed by New Zealand boat building company Yachting Developments (YDL) with valuable input from the Emirates Team New Zealand design team, Southern Spars, North Sails and significant support from the wider New Zealand Marine Industry highlighting the industries commitment to innovation.  The fleet of one-design boats will be built primarily at YDL in Auckland.

Sure, ETNZ didn't draw out all of the details of the boat plans, but they had major input and their yacht club is the lead sponsor.

It doesn't say "major input", it says "valuable input". You perhaps do not understand the difference. "Valuable input" could very easily mean one designer at ETNZ said "Nice work boys, don't change a thing." 

If you read accurately it says almost nothing at all, just like the writer of the release intended.  

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exactly. 
one designer less than a day

they have more important things to do funnily enough 

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On 12/20/2019 at 12:41 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

It doesn't say "major input", it says "valuable input". You perhaps do not understand the difference. "Valuable input" could very easily mean one designer at ETNZ said "Nice work boys, don't change a thing." 

If you read accurately it says almost nothing at all, just like the writer of the release intended.  

So you think that the NZ design teams valuable input was no more than a PR move?  Of course the NZ team didn’t do all of the drawings, engineering and details of the AC9F, but there sure would have some input or agreement on if the boat would look like small version of the AC 75.  

So the youth AC version of a foiling monohull is a small version of the established IMOCA boats and not the AC75’s.  And it is backed by the AC defending yacht club and their design team.  It shows that they don’t even promote a trickledown of the AC75’s. 

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I'm sorry to throw water on the burning fires of youth - but this boat and program will be a complete failure...for myriad reasons.

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13 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

So you think that the NZ design teams valuable input was no more than a PR move?  Of course the NZ team didn’t do all of the drawings, engineering and details of the AC9F, but there sure would have some input or agreement on if the boat would look like small version of the AC 75.  

So the youth AC version of a foiling monohull is a small version of the established IMOCA boats and not the AC75’s.  And it is backed by the AC defending yacht club and their design team.  It shows that they don’t even promote a trickledown of the AC75’s. 

Can you clarify your position here becauSe your two paragraphs are contradictory from my reading. Thx

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3 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

but this boat and program will be a complete failure

trolling again

 

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1 hour ago, phill_nz said:

trolling again

 

Isn't it funny how people with no financial, moral or effort input want to drag other people's ideas down when they cant think of anything positive to say.

The first boat isn't even out of the shed yet and there are already a couple of notices of interest (from outside NZL & CHN)

Sheesh

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8 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Isn't it funny how people with no financial, moral or effort input want to drag other people's ideas down when they cant think of anything positive to say.

The first boat isn't even out of the shed yet and there are already a couple of notices of interest (from outside NZL & CHN)

Sheesh

Can you point me to a sustaining youth racing class that looks anything remotely like this? How exactly do you see this being successful? I'm genuinely curious.

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44 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Can you point me to a sustaining youth racing class that looks anything remotely like this? How exactly do you see this being successful? I'm genuinely curious.

quick question for the spam king: What sustainable youth racing class have you been involved with?  What racing class of any kind have you been involved with?

 

Those of you who engage with spamdaddy might want to qualify his knowledge before bothering.  He literally started sailing a few years ago and likely knows less than your 8 year old about racing sailboats.

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Well if the questions are as uninformed as you frame them, Clean, then the answers will be extremely simple and obvious to all and leave no room for doubt.

So? What are the elements here that will make the AC9F class successful and sustainable?

 

 

Now, back to my Christmas pudding.

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7 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

questions are as uninformed

questions by nature are uniformed .. hence they are phrased as questions

 

8 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

AC9F class successful and sustainable

thats purely a terms of reference thing

but

basically they are a dent in the water with sails

that makes most sail boaties happy enough to climb aboard and give it a wiz

if they get paid or sponsored to do it and esp if there are other like minded around its called .. fun .. and most sail boaties like that

 

if you term it as will they be here in 100 years .. then possibly no they are not sustainable .. same as the planet in a few billion ( or sooner if accountants keep their way ) will not be

 

 

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2 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Can you point me to a sustaining youth racing class that looks anything remotely like this? How exactly do you see this being successful? I'm genuinely curious.

Can you imagine where we wouldn't be if, in 1851 Commodore Stevens' response to Mr Schuyler had been "You want to build yacht, sail it to Cowes and take part in a yacht race that's a side show for Great Britain's Great Exhibition? Fuckoff -you must be mad - that'll be a oneoff!!!" OR in Knox Johnson & Moitissier hadn't responded to the Sunday Times and the Golden Globe Race publicity  in  1968 with "I could do that" where would the Vendee Globe be now? or or or ! All the way back to some ancestor in the Olduvai Gorge in Africa not thinking "I wonder what's over the next hill".

It may not work but better to try and die than sit in your little cave and not hope for progress. No wonder our sport is shrinking in some parts of the world. 

Read some books, you might discover a lot of our progress as a species is thanks to shots in the dark or people having a go and ignoring the critics.

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If they make this event affordable, they may need to limit entries to 2 or 3 from each country rather than leave it open, as I can see the French, Swiss, Italians, British and our American friends entering multiple teams. A potential NZ$140k racing budget plus accommodation and shore support might poke it out to NZ$240k...

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6 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Can you point me to a sustaining youth racing class that looks anything remotely like this? How exactly do you see this being successful? I'm genuinely curious.

It's funny, to me at least, that many are asking the same of the SailGP series.

How come you're convinced one will suceed when the other considerably cheaper will fail.

I'm genuinely curious......

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 I suppose this is my problem with it...

8 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Can you imagine where we wouldn't be if, in 1851 Commodore Stevens' response to Mr Schuyler had been "You want to build yacht, sail it to Cowes and take part in a yacht race that's a side show for Great Britain's Great Exhibition? Fuckoff -you must be mad - that'll be a oneoff!!!" OR in Knox Johnson & Moitissier hadn't responded to the Sunday Times and the Golden Globe Race publicity  in  1968 with "I could do that" where would the Vendee Globe be now? or or or ! All the way back to some ancestor in the Olduvai Gorge in Africa not thinking "I wonder what's over the next hill".

It may not work but better to try and die than sit in your little cave and not hope for progress. No wonder our sport is shrinking in some parts of the world. 

Read some books, you might discover a lot of our progress as a species is thanks to shots in the dark or people having a go and ignoring the critics.

As I've told you before, I respect you, Shang. But you don't list a single tangible reason that this YAC program/class will be successful. It's just a "shot in the dark" - that people like me shouldn't question from "our little caves"?

I won't criticize your hope. That's for you to justify any way you want. But I do stand by my skepticism for this program - for many specific reasons that are quite rational. One simple example of many?

8 hours ago, Indio said:

If they make this event affordable, they may need to limit entries to 2 or 3 from each country rather than leave it open, as I can see the French, Swiss, Italians, British and our American friends entering multiple teams. A potential NZ$140k racing budget plus accommodation and shore support might poke it out to NZ$240k...

A quarter million? AC36 has pulled in only 3 challengers this go-round, largely due to expense - or, more bluntly, the conclusion by many "national bodies" that the cost is not worth the return. Are there really another 6-10+ clubs out there around the world that are scrambling to get in on this YAC action? And even if there are, who of them will be invited - and why?

262662608_ScreenShot2019-12-26at12_54_58AM.thumb.png.0847cd9a481c94449de1b99d3d68d38d.png

Maybe Team SA?

And finally...

5 hours ago, Woolfy said:

It's funny, to me at least, that many are asking the same of the SailGP series.

How come you're convinced one will suceed when the other considerably cheaper will fail.

I'm genuinely curious......

It remains to be seen how SailGP will do in the upcoming seasons, and more to the point of appeal to youth, how the Inspire program will play out. But there are FAR more corollary classes and events for the SailGP direction (which don't cost $250K) than even remotely what you're seeing here with the AC9F/YAC.

As always, this AC Youth program could go gang-busters and prove me completely wrong. But looking at the facts, I don't think so. And I am fully qualified to say that.

We'll know soon.

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1 hour ago, smackdaddy said:

 I suppose this is my problem with it...

As I've told you before, I respect you, Shang. But you don't list a single tangible reason that this YAC program/class will be successful. It's just a "shot in the dark" - that people like me shouldn't question from "our little caves"?

I won't criticize your hope. That's for you to justify any way you want. But I do stand by my skepticism for this program - for many specific reasons that are quite rational. One simple example of many?

A quarter million? AC36 has pulled in only 3 challengers this go-round, largely due to expense - or, more bluntly, the conclusion by many "national bodies" that the cost is not worth the return. Are there really another 6-10+ clubs out there around the world that are scrambling to get in on this YAC action? And even if there are, who of them will be invited - and why?

262662608_ScreenShot2019-12-26at12_54_58AM.thumb.png.0847cd9a481c94449de1b99d3d68d38d.png

Maybe Team SA?

And finally...

It remains to be seen how SailGP will do in the upcoming seasons, and more to the point of appeal to youth, how the Inspire program will play out. But there are FAR more corollary classes and events for the SailGP direction (which don't cost $250K) than even remotely what you're seeing here with the AC9F/YAC.

As always, this AC Youth program could go gang-busters and prove me completely wrong. But looking at the facts, I don't think so. And I am fully qualified to say that.

We'll know soon.

On a more personal note I could have listened to the “it will never work” merchants when I came to China 19 years ago & 1 year later had not decided to found the 1st sailing club in China, or 14 years ago have decided not to put my shoulder behind the China Club Challenge Match which for each of the past 2 years has been the biggest one design keelboat in Asia with fleets of 37 & 45 boats. Easiest way to avoid anything failing is to not to bother trying & Pooh pooling those who do. No supersonic flight, a sailing speed record nowhere near the current 65 knots - ask Paul Larsen how the eventual success felt. Better yet, search ‘Sailrocket’ on YouTube. I was there when the first boat was in the mound & it was a long time before the final run that topped 65 kts ( 10 years sticks in my mind)

when Thomas Edison was asked by a journalist how he felt about failing to invent electric light 5,000 times, Edison’s response was “I haven’t failed 5,000 times, I have discovered 5,000 ways that don’t work. Thank goodness Edison & his like didn’t give up or we would all still be in the dark!
 

thank goodness for those people who don’t listen to the naysayers.

better to try & die rather than do nothing because then at least you know you’ve lived

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2 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Fair enough, Shang. I admire your aspiration. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong.

Perhaps you have been called out as a useless ignorant troll time after time. 

Perhaps.

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8 hours ago, barfy said:

Perhaps you have been called out as a useless ignorant troll time after time. 

Perhaps.

Oh I've been called that over and over again to be sure - but I have not been "called out" as that by any means. If you're unable to understand the distinction, you can ask one of your pals to explain it.

My question (and related skepticism) still stands and is still perfectly valid. You lot just don't seem to like the question - or any questioning at all for that matter.

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I for one don't have a problem with your or anyone elses's doubts about the viability of a youth AC, what I struggle with is your adamance that it will fail particularly when previously you've ranted and raved about what a great model Sail GP is. Both events are effectively hanging off the coat tails of the AC proper, one containing discarded AC sailors and/or spare current AC level sailors and the other the AC sailors of the future, so both events have quality sailors sailing quality, if very different boats.

You've wound your neck in about SailGP and seem to now conceed that perhaps the business model won't work (some might say in true troll fashion) and seem to accept the fact that you could be wrong about the youth AC and it could well succeed. Yet you still pour scorn on the youth event whilst grandstanding about the GP, can't you just wish both events well?

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On 12/25/2019 at 4:57 PM, smackdaddy said:

Well if the questions are as uninformed as you frame them, Clean, then the answers will be extremely simple and obvious to all

You definitely have the script down for 'what uninformed people say when someone questions their lack of knowledge'.

You could certainly make a splash with that kind of management consulting advice.

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On 12/24/2019 at 3:00 PM, The_Alchemist said:

So you think that the NZ design teams valuable input was no more than a PR move?  

Yep.

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On 12/26/2019 at 2:18 AM, smackdaddy said:

And I am fully qualified to say that.

 

 

Screen Shot 2019-12-27 at 3.01.57 PM.png

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1 hour ago, Woolfy said:

what I struggle with is your adamance that it will fail

If you people don't understand the mental disease spamdaddy has, you're the problem too.  He is a lonely guy who gets a charge out of making people upset because he's angry at what happened to his life.  You feed his disease by pretending his commentary has any basis in reality or experience, rather than asking him why he thinks what he does or how he knows what he purports to know.

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11 hours ago, Woolfy said:

I for one don't have a problem with your or anyone elses's doubts about the viability of a youth AC, what I struggle with is your adamance that it will fail particularly when previously you've ranted and raved about what a great model Sail GP is. Both events are effectively hanging off the coat tails of the AC proper, one containing discarded AC sailors and/or spare current AC level sailors and the other the AC sailors of the future, so both events have quality sailors sailing quality, if very different boats.

You've wound your neck in about SailGP and seem to now conceed that perhaps the business model won't work (some might say in true troll fashion) and seem to accept the fact that you could be wrong about the youth AC and it could well succeed. Yet you still pour scorn on the youth event whilst grandstanding about the GP, can't you just wish both events well?

I've not changed my tune at all about SailGP. I think it is a very solid business model as I've said from the beginning. Among many other things, it's built on a proven class of boat - the fastest on the planet (reliable), it's an annual series with a growing global footprint (reliable), it has relatively reasonable and stable cost factors (reliable), it's had an season 1 with good interest heading into 2 (reliable), it has proven ownership/leadership (reliable), it unquestionably has top-tier participation (reliable), as well as a solid pipeline for future talent through Inspire and other existing foiling classes (reliable). Sponsors and investors (and pro sailors) like reliability...very much.

You say SailGP contains "discarded AC sailors" - discarded by whom? Are you saying the 6-8 other countries/teams that were originally touted by the Emiratis to be in on this AC were also "discarded" when they bailed? Was Ben Ainslie and INEOS just "discarded"? Sorry - that statement of yours is not accurate on any level.

And that's my problem with how you guys frame things. The AC is simply not the all-in-all it used to be, or more accurately, that you and NZ need it to be. There are other options now. And that's a good thing. So, as I said, I absolutely think this YAC direction will fail...for many, many reasons. I'm not saying i hope it will fail - I'm just pretty confident it will considering all the down-side. In general, it's simply being built on an unproven, unreliable model...one that you're seeing play out with the broader AC36 itself as it continues to struggle and shrink. Huge dreams are failing to come to fruition.

So, as I told Shang, I have no problem with people dreaming. But no one is able to clearly state exactly why this YAC will be successful. That's a problem.

The Chinese are very smart business people. And I don't think they see the same dream you see. They are in it for something else.

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Having a single backer with a history of pulling the plug on a whim is not "a very solid business model". As for being a proven class - proven to be fragile and easily broken. The Brits couldn't even sail in their own event and didn't even capsize. Nat sailed with a broken pedestal - his boat struggled for reliability all season. Truth be told the cats are delicate and break easily - especially the uber fragile wing. I expect no change from this in the new season - numerous failures and incomplete fleets. We'll get the usual excuses as well - they're cutting edge, still developing blah blah blah. If the same two boats dominate the fallacy that it's competitive will be tossed as well.

Expensive circus is correct, and when the Ringmaster tires of it - and he will - it will die. Best we can hope is that they manage to recycle the carbon. 

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hmm

larry loves reliability

flash

java

 

 

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HR and phill, I think Cleans right we're dealing with mental disease here. :blink:

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 With regard to longevity etc one thing I think we should be able to easily agree on is that some team will win the next AC. 

and in due course there’ll be another AC. Boats might be different as might the location. There may or not be more or fewer teams but it ending this time around is highly unlikely. Agreed?

with SGP. Which I happen to like, the clock is ticking faster as it’s mostly funded by one guy. I sure hope sponsors etc arrive to support/replace Larry in time but for now it’s WIP. And only Larry knows how fast the clock is ticking.  So right now SGP does have a greater existential challenge than the AC. 

the youth AC is a fairly recent construct. And event to try and broaden the bigger event. But it’s nature is far more likely to vary. It’s no more or less relevant than the other regattas that ride off the AC at any given time.  

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1 hour ago, PJB said:

 With regard to longevity etc one thing I think we should be able to easily agree on is that some team will win the next AC. 

and in due course there’ll be another AC. Boats might be different as might the location. There may or not be more or fewer teams but it ending this time around is highly unlikely. Agreed?

with SGP. Which I happen to like, the clock is ticking faster as it’s mostly funded by one guy. I sure hope sponsors etc arrive to support/replace Larry in time but for now it’s WIP. And only Larry knows how fast the clock is ticking.  So right now SGP does have a greater existential challenge than the AC

the youth AC is a fairly recent construct. And event to try and broaden the bigger event. But it’s nature is far more likely to vary. It’s no more or less relevant than the other regattas that ride off the AC at any given time.  

Ya, the AC has ticked along for a good while. 

It's great there is a pathway regatta, the red bull produced some interesting racing, and a crop of winners.

The failgp youth series is great as well, problem is it's a pathway to extinction.

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On 12/28/2019 at 6:51 PM, smackdaddy said:

I've not changed my tune at all about SailGP. I think it is a very solid business model as I've said from the beginning. It has proven ownership/leadership (reliable)

Tell that to Oracle Team USA who no longer exist.

You say SailGP contains "discarded AC sailors" - discarded by whom?

Discarded by Torbjorn Tornquist and Artemis Racing. Discarded by Softbank Team Japan (Who coincidentally is another team Larry pulled the plug on) and now discarded by China.

And that's my problem with how you guys frame things. The AC is simply not the all-in-all it used to be

Yes, yes it is. Which is why Russell made a huge song and dance when Ineos Team UK joined the circus.

There are other options now. And that's a good thing. So, as I said, I absolutely think this YAC direction will fail...

for many, many reasons. I'm not saying i hope it will fail - I'm just pretty confident it will considering all the down-side. In general, it's simply being built on an unproven, unreliable model...

You mean the same model that has existed for over 160 years? Yeah sure, its unreliable.

one that you're seeing play out with the broader AC36 itself as it continues to struggle and shrink. Huge dreams are failing to come to fruition.

You mean the dream of developing the Auckland Waterfront leaving yet another lasting legacy for Aucklanders and NZers to enjoy long after the Cup leaves NZ shores? That has come to fruition. The dream of introducing and proving a completely new and revolutionary concept of not only boat, but of sailing? That has come to fruition.

So, as I told Shang, I have no problem with people dreaming. But no one is able to clearly state exactly why this YAC will be successful. That's a problem.

It already is successful. Has been in the past, and will be in the future.

The Chinese are very smart business people. And I don't think they see the same dream you see. They are in it for something else.

They definitely didn't see the dream of FailGP thats for sure, infact they obviously saw something in the Youth AC that was more appealing than anything SailGP could offer, so they jumped ship.

 

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