antskip

rs aero vs low-riding scow moth

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I was wondering how well a low-riding scow moth (with modern equipment) would match up against an rs aero, given an equal helmsman? has anyone sailed both. and could compare them in performance?

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Probably a modern scow moth

  • lighter (although the aeros 32kg is fairly light so probably not much in it)
  • better rig (stays, spreaders and full battens gives better control, slightly less sail area than the aero 9 though)
  • considerably more righting moment (2.25m > 1.4m)
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7 hours ago, Ncik said:

Probably a modern scow moth

  • lighter (although the aeros 32kg is fairly light so probably not much in it)
  • better rig (stays, spreaders and full battens gives better control, slightly less sail area than the aero 9 though)
  • considerably more righting moment (2.25m > 1.4m)

Where do you think these would fit in this figure?

90YearsOfMothDevelopment.jpg.a5a7534643154df7a79acca8972e318f.jpg

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12 minutes ago, Doug Halsey said:

Where do you think these would fit in this figure?

90YearsOfMothDevelopment.jpg.a5a7534643154df7a79acca8972e318f.jpg

Pretty sure he's referring to the Mach 2.  Anything on a foil will not compare.  We have a small fleet of older wooden moths here in Charleston.  They get dragged out for 1 or 2 regattas per year.  Based on what I've seen the Laser is far faster on all points of sail, but I've never sailed head to head against one.

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Int. Moths were considerably quicker than lasers from the early 80s on. Scows were good in heavy winds and only in the mid 80s skiffs became as fast as scows in windy conditions. Until then most WC were won in skiffs when they were held in Europe and in Scows if they were held in Australia. The Wombat was one of the first designs to beat a scow on it's home territory. Since then most of the competition was held in skiffs.

Int. Moths were not active in the US then. What you have seen racing in Charleston are mostly designs from the early 70s afaik.

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16 minutes ago, Suppenkelle said:

Int. Moths were considerably quicker than lasers from the early 80s on. Scows were good in heavy winds and only in the mid 80s skiffs became as fast as scows in windy conditions. Until then most WC were won in skiffs when they were held in Europe and in Scows if they were held in Australia. The Wombat was one of the first designs to beat a scow on it's home territory. Since then most of the competition was held in skiffs.

Int. Moths were not active in the US then. What you have seen racing in Charleston are mostly designs from the early 70s afaik.

I would agree with that.  We have two types of moths here.  The old wooden ones and the new carbon/foiling model, (nothing in between).  No MC scows but a few E-scows.

I believe the MC scows, (and possibly e-scows?) have a class rule that states any wind over 22knots sustained kills racing for the day?

 

 

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13 hours ago, antskip said:

I was wondering how well a low-riding scow moth (with modern equipment) would match up against an rs aero, given an equal helmsman? has anyone sailed both. and could compare them in performance?

My wide skiff Moth was nowhere near an Aero. Nearly  two feet of waterline length is a high bar to beat. UK Moth handicap was about 1140 in current values, that's Aero 5 territory.

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4 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Pretty sure he's referring to the Mach 2.  Anything on a foil will not compare...

antskip asked about a low-riding scow. Mach2 is a foiling skiff, so that wouldn't compare. 

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45 minutes ago, Doug Halsey said:

antskip asked about a low-riding scow. Mach2 is a foiling skiff, so that wouldn't compare. 

Yeah. Your chart confused me.  I was looking for a "modern scow moth" on it and didn't see one so I assumed he was thinking about the foiler.  Re-reading his post I see he said "low riding".  I've not see a low riding moth with the items he mentioned.  Where does that fall on the chart?

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thank you all for very helpful replies! I am asking question after many years out of sailing to concentrate on my career I am considering whether I could get the new foiler called the skeeta https://www.skeetafoilingcraft.com/skeeta for low-riding competition as well as foiling. I am steering towards rs aero7 club racing but intrigued by the amazing possibilities of foiling. the skeeta is promoted as a low-rider as well as a foiler and i wondered whether i should consider just getting a skeeta rather than an aero7 - and later add a foiler - a skeeta or a UFO. I  prefer the concept of the skeeta over the UFO as it is basically a very up-to-date version of the scow moth but with foils (stayed rig with spreaders, scow hull, boom vang track, all rigging and launching and vice versa can be done with boat upright). i don't want to just joy-ride but also want to to club fleet race hence the aero - but not keen to buy 2 boats...hence considering buying just the skeeta  and sailing it as a foiler for joy-rides (and perhaps against the local waszp fleet when i ever get proficient enough?) - and as a low-rider (i.e. minus horizontal foils) against the local aeros. the skeeta people say it should be comparable to the aero but posted the question on this forum to get advice on whether substituting an aero7 with a skeeta might work? so far i am thinking best to get an aero7 for low-riding club competition and then later perhaps a UFO for foiling fun? (though i am not keen on the wishbone sailboard-style rig of UFO and waszp, and feel the skeeta would be a much better low-rider than the UFO or waszp)...

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4 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Yeah. Your chart confused me.  I was looking for a "modern scow moth" on it and didn't see one so I assumed he was thinking about the foiler.  Re-reading his post I see he said "low riding".  I've not see a low riding moth with the items he mentioned.  Where does that fall on the chart? https://www.skeetafoilingcraft.com/skeeta

 

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17 minutes ago, antskip said:

thank you all for very helpful replies! I am asking question after many years out of sailing to concentrate on my career I am considering whether I could get the new foiler called the skeeta https://www.skeetafoilingcraft.com/skeeta for low-riding competition as well as foiling. I am steering towards rs aero7 club racing but intrigued by the amazing possibilities of foiling. the skeeta is promoted as a low-rider as well as a foiler and i wondered whether i should consider just getting a skeeta rather than an aero7 - and later add a foiler - a skeeta or a UFO. I  prefer the concept of the skeeta over the UFO as it is basically a very up-to-date version of the scow moth but with foils (stayed rig with spreaders, scow hull, boom vang track, all rigging and launching and vice versa can be done with boat upright). i don't want to just joy-ride but also want to to club fleet race hence the aero - but not keen to buy 2 boats...hence considering buying just the skeeta  and sailing it as a foiler for joy-rides (and perhaps against the local waszp fleet when i ever get proficient enough?) - and as a low-rider (i.e. minus horizontal foils) against the local aeros. the skeeta people say it should be comparable to the aero but posted the question on this forum to get advice on whether substituting an aero7 with a skeeta might work? so far i am thinking best to get an aero7 for low-riding club competition and then later perhaps a UFO for foiling fun? (though i am not keen on the wishbone sailboard-style rig of UFO and waszp, and feel the skeeta would be a much better low-rider than the UFO or waszp)...

Buy an Aero and a UFO. Two boats are better than one.

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If you are attracted to the Aero for racing but also interested in foiling fun there is also https://www.glidefree.com.au/aero-foils from the same manufacturer as the Skeeta.

If you have been out of sailing for many years, perhaps a realistic assessment of whether you should rebuild skills/sailing fitness before attempting to jump into a foiler might be in order. Sorry if that sounds harsh. My club has both Aero sailors and Mothists and really the time and effort the latter put into their sailing is of a different order. For myself, I am very happy with my Aero 7.

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10 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Three boats are better than two

...and four boats?

My personal record is five boats. :o  (I admit it was excessive)

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9 hours ago, dogwatch said:

If you are attracted to the Aero for racing but also interested in foiling fun there is also https://www.glidefree.com.au/aero-foils from the same manufacturer as the Skeeta.

AFAICT those foils are more of a trick gadget than something you can call usable. Foiling boats have special design decisions that help them take off and foil stable.

 

9 hours ago, dogwatch said:

If you have been out of sailing for many years, perhaps a realistic assessment of whether you should rebuild skills/sailing fitness before attempting to jump into a foiler might be in order. Sorry if that sounds harsh. My club has both Aero sailors and Mothists and really the time and effort the latter put into their sailing is of a different order.

That's a good thought, but overstated. When you sign up for a foiler, you sign up for X months of frustration as you learn something difficult. Can you persevere through the lows? 

Fitness helps to get through the learning curve, as you'll capzise plenty, also lots of takeoff and crash right there. Once you're over the hump, the fitness needs are same or less than a laser. Finally, mothies put in a ton of boat work. Get a UFO or a Wazsp; learn on one of those. Crash the sturdy inexpensive foiler. You can always switch to a Moth once you know what you're doing :-)

Couple things that help a lot getting started (and you don't need a foiler to practice):

  • knowing the "steer for balance" technique (ie: downwind on a laser in a blow, bear away when you heel in the puff)
  • knowing how to keep the a dinghy real flat in a blow with mainsheet work
  • being comfortable, or getting comfortable, with the rig in top of you (as in a windsurfer...)
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The original question is difficult because there has not been any modern scow moths built and raced. A lot of nostalgia about with people building old scow designs in plywood but they are all way heavier than the old scows because they want them to last longer than one regatta, and because the thin plywood is no longer made.

The most modern scow actually racing is Ian Sim's Smith now sailing in the Perth Moth worlds. Its about 25 years old, foam glass by Mark Thorpe with carbon rig, but Ian is 72 and he is not going anywhere as fast as the champions of last century. He does one lap of the 2 lap course and has made the 15min time window (after the winner) only a few times, basically he is 1/3 to 1/4 the speed of this year's champion foiler.

If someone was serious and built a modern carbon scow to a 1980s design and sailed it proper scow style, healed over 30deg, it would be a lot faster than Ian but what would be the point. It might move up from the Aero 5 rating to the Aero 7 rating but so what. 

If you wnat to sail a good modern low rider, get an Aero or something similar with a fleet near your home. If you want a moth get a foiler, if you just want to play with boats, build what ever you like, enjoy it but do not worry about speed.

Look at the FB Scow page to a keen growp of scow tinkerers. Some of them in Queensland actually get out and race them a couple of times a year.  https://www.facebook.com/groups/447722085340660/

 

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On 12/14/2019 at 9:28 PM, martin.langhoff said:

AFAICT those foils are more of a trick gadget than something you can call usable. Foiling boats have special design decisions that help them take off and foil stable.

Fully agree, Aeros fitted with glide free at my club, at lift off they rapidly bear away and then capsize. At 35kg the aero was not designed to take the localised loads of glide free or designed to take the impact of falling off foils. 

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There was a carbon foam scow built locally a few years ago. Based on the Bunyip IX.

http://perverted-moth.blogspot.com/2014/09/mscow-construction-drawings.html

 

From the AS Handicaps

Laser Full - 114

Laser Radial - 118.5

Scow Moth - 115

Aero 5 - 116.8

Aero 7 - 112.5

Aero 9 - 109.3

 

Note the last 4 are tentative being new or old classes with fewer numbers than the laser.

With this in mind I will clarify my statement, on an inland flat-water venue I would be surprised to see a well sailed Aero beat a well sailed, modern scow moth, particularly in a breeze. But 5+ minutes is a lot of catching up to do.

 

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On 12/14/2019 at 12:00 AM, Doug Halsey said:

Where do you think these would fit in this figure?

90YearsOfMothDevelopment.jpg.a5a7534643154df7a79acca8972e318f.jpg

After looking at the AS handicap, that graph isn't really correct. The best narrow skiff, the hungry tiger, would only be 103. There was a big jump from the HT to the first generation foilers (fastacraft), then another big jump to second gen (fastacraft & bladerider), then another smaller jump to mach2 & lister with foiling tacks and the pros really getting involved. Incremental from then till now, maybe with better light wind take-off and control improvements, but would be surprised if the best wouldn't be pushed hard to win with a handicap of 60, where it now stands.

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On 12/14/2019 at 12:18 PM, Gouvernail said:

I would love to get down to fewer than ten boats

I have a long ways to go to get below 10 boats. If it helps the conversation, the RS 9 seems fairly close to the Tasar in less than 10 knots of wind. 

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Portsmouth Yarstick has Tasar at 108, RS Aero 9 109.3. Finn 112, RS Aero 7 112.3, scow Moth 115, OK dinghy 115.5, foiling Moth 60, Waszp 70?

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On 12/13/2019 at 8:23 PM, antskip said:

thank you all for very helpful replies! I am asking question after many years out of sailing to concentrate on my career I am considering whether I could get the new foiler called the skeeta https://www.skeetafoilingcraft.com/skeeta for low-riding competition as well as foiling. I am steering towards rs aero7 club racing but intrigued by the amazing possibilities of foiling. the skeeta is promoted as a low-rider as well as a foiler and i wondered whether i should consider just getting a skeeta rather than an aero7 - and later add a foiler - a skeeta or a UFO. I  prefer the concept of the skeeta over the UFO as it is basically a very up-to-date version of the scow moth but with foils (stayed rig with spreaders, scow hull, boom vang track, all rigging and launching and vice versa can be done with boat upright). i don't want to just joy-ride but also want to to club fleet race hence the aero - but not keen to buy 2 boats...hence considering buying just the skeeta  and sailing it as a foiler for joy-rides (and perhaps against the local waszp fleet when i ever get proficient enough?) - and as a low-rider (i.e. minus horizontal foils) against the local aeros. the skeeta people say it should be comparable to the aero but posted the question on this forum to get advice on whether substituting an aero7 with a skeeta might work? so far i am thinking best to get an aero7 for low-riding club competition and then later perhaps a UFO for foiling fun? (though i am not keen on the wishbone sailboard-style rig of UFO and waszp, and feel the skeeta would be a much better low-rider than the UFO or waszp)...

I own a Skeeta (last 2019 model) and foiled the 2018 model as well. On foils (F9.5) it is as fast as a Waszp (but way easier). Easy to sail in displacement mode as well.......faster than an aero in dispacement  mode.......  not sure. The hull planes and fly's over the wave tops, but as soon as the waves are too far apart the scow hull will loose speed (wide hull diging into the wave....).

So, yes excellent and easy foiler, displacement mode....... i believe most will never try.

 

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