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Black Jack

Our refreshed 1D35 comes out to play.

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One on my best friends has just refreshed a 1D35. it is as though she just came out of the box. We finally took her our for a tested spin on old sails in the Midwinters in Berkeley. Ron Moore and crew spent nearly a year in Watsonville redoing the decks, hull, keel. We spent hundreds  (if not thousands) of hours and undisclosed dollars getting her back to righting shape. As we begin to redress her, tune her up - it looks like we will have a a competitive boat for the bay and a Pac Cup boat for Hawaii this summer. 

Great skipper and crew will make this the boat to beat this year in our class. PHRF 36 with regular kites.

 

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2 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Good nuff, and good luck ! 

 

Don't think that you are off the hook with my boat which rates like yours. Steve at Hogan sails is making me a new blade for my boat.

Wednesday night races my friend. Wednesday night races.:) 

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I'm surprised the usual suspects have not weighed in with their usual advice about what a waste of money that was and how it should have been scrapped and the money spent on a better, newer boat.

 

By the way, congrats - looks like a great boat.

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10 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

As long as Helen Keller remains his pit person, you're in good shape! 

A lot of really bad habits in the video and not just the pit.  But he did stand out.  Get your sailmaker to come out ostensibly to check the sails and have him put people in the right positions to do their positions.  The pole bouncing up and down is really bad and could kill someone on a bigger boat.  The guy sitting against the bulkhead and grinding with his left arm doing about 45 degs with each crank is ridiculous.  Nothing that can't be fixed easily and some folks just don't know better.  With the right attitude and desire, easily fixed.  

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1 minute ago, Cal20sailor said:

A lot of really bad habits in the video and not just the pit.  But he did stand out.  Get your sailmaker to come out ostensibly to check the sails and have him put people in the right positions to do their positions.  The pole bouncing up and down is really bad and could kill someone on a bigger boat.  The guy sitting against the bulkhead and grinding with his left arm doing about 45 degs with each crank is ridiculous.  Nothing that can't be fixed easily and some folks just don't know better.  With the right attitude and desire, easily fixed.  

The boat crew was relaxed after the race. we launched the third spin as a test with beers in hand. Sailmaker was on the boat and new sails coming.

Not everything is a race or a lesson. sometimes it is joy to take time and just see how thing goes.

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We are applying for a modified rating this year. 

Using the old spinnaker pole for a sprit at 30% "J" extension, to change to a new "J" of 1.3 * 15.6 = 20.3. 

that will allow me to fly the old miter cut "180% " Drifter off of it downwind... 

PHRF committee is reviewing, last year told me that would be 9 sec... 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Black Jack said:

The boat crew was relaxed after the race. we launched the third spin as a test with beers in hand. Sailmaker was on the boat and new sails coming.

Not everything is a race or a lesson. sometimes it is joy to take time and just see how thing goes.

Sorry, that wasn't clear.  Still, even when relaxing, I couldn't bring myself to relax that much.  Good luck.  The 1Ds were a fixture on the lakes where I raced and I always liked them.  They used to race level with the Sydney 38's in Chicago and the S38s would leg out on the upwinds and the 1Ds would run them down going downhill.  Biggest problem was the build quality and it sounds like you've nipped that in the bud.   

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I'm surprised the usual suspects have not weighed in with their usual advice about what a waste of money that was and how it should have been scrapped and the money spent on a better, newer boat.

Well now that you've come out and said it they don't need to. 

Also great video, best parts of the vid were the guest appearance down below from Helen Keller & also the up close shots of evrryones PFD.

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3 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

A lot of really bad habits in the video and not just the pit.  But he did stand out.  Get your sailmaker to come out ostensibly to check the sails and have him put people in the right positions to do their positions.  The pole bouncing up and down is really bad and could kill someone on a bigger boat.  The guy sitting against the bulkhead and grinding with his left arm doing about 45 degs with each crank is ridiculous.  Nothing that can't be fixed easily and some folks just don't know better.  With the right attitude and desire, easily fixed.  

+1,000.

Refurbished boat is great; but teaching the crew how to properly set and trim the sails would be way more effective (cheaper, faster and easier, too!). Or just find new crew who already know how to sail.

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3 hours ago, Black Jack said:

The boat crew was relaxed after the race. we launched the third spin as a test with beers in hand. Sailmaker was on the boat and new sails coming.

Not everything is a race or a lesson. sometimes it is joy to take time and just see how thing goes.

BJ,

I've looked at the video again and my comment remains the same, some really bad habits.  I've cruised in under spin a countless number of times and the same people do the same jobs and we square it away quickly to enjoy the beers.  All that it took to keep the pole from skying and then bouncing was a quick tug on the foreguy.  I would have grabbed it from the helm and with two people between me and it, I can only assume that those two are also ignorant to the basics.  Who was the sailmaker aboard as he should be shot.  

Why post a video that shows gross incompetence?  I am very confused.  

Very cool boat, but the crew I saw won't be winning much let alone making it to Hawaii.  

 

 

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5 hours ago, Black Jack said:

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=39054&d=1560

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attachment.php?attachmentid=39335&d=1560

 

where are the photos?

 

6 hours ago, Black Jack said:

 Ron Moore and crew spent nearly a year in Watsonville redoing the decks, hull, keel. We spent hundreds  (if not thousands) of hours and undisclosed dollars getting her back to righting shape.

Fixing delaminated gelcoat?

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2 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

 

Very cool boat, but the crew I saw won't be winning much let alone making it to Hawaii.  

 

 

They are messing about in a boat, good for them. At least they all have a PFD. It is early days for them. 

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All that fuss is bout you guys busting it down the Estuary back to your slip? 

It's four miles of 200 yard wide slalom depending on the shifts, commercial and power boat traffic. 

We usually transit a lot slower, but equally relaxed, often by the lee to avoid the need to gybe too many times.  

 

So "leading lady" and "lively lady"... how many others? 

 

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Everyone is a critic here.  Unless it's a professionally shot video of TP52 Quantum racing there's going to be stones cast.  People even find something to criticize about the pro's too.

It's always gutsy and entertaining to post your sailing vid's!  

Looked like a great day of sailing.

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Great on completing the project. Too many old  worn out "race" boats in up on jack stands in junk yards where delusional old "racers"claim they are rebuilding a classic race boat where the boats spend many many years  on stands getting a "faired race bottom". If they do hit the water every once in a while they rarely sail. 

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So the guy on the stbd cabintop winch appears to be cranking on the foreguy, that seems very strange. Having spent quite a bit of time on 1D35s the easiest answer would be the foreguy is led backwards through the ratchet block. Should never need to put a 2:1 foreguy on a winch.

 

 

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22 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

We are applying for a modified rating this year. 

Using the old spinnaker pole for a sprit at 30% "J" extension, to change to a new "J" of 1.3 * 15.6 = 20.3. 

that will allow me to fly the old miter cut "180% " Drifter off of it downwind... 

PHRF committee is reviewing, last year told me that would be 9 sec... 

 

 

you'll snap an unsupported spin pole like a twig. Give it a whirl if you must but you heard it here first... 

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10 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

you'll snap an unsupported spin pole like a twig. Give it a whirl if you must but you heard it here first... 

"Drifter" is the clue, for < <10kts TWS. 15.5 ' pole extended 1/3 past forestay. 

This pole is thicker wall than modern extrusions, AFAIK it's from 1962. 

Will add a bobstay the next time we haul out, to push a proper sprit (SELDEN?) against if this works well enough.  

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Quote

that will allow me to fly the old miter cut "180% " Drifter off of it downwind... 

Drifters are usually cut like jibs.    Spinnakers flown from the pole have to meet a certain mid-girth measurement no?  

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ratings stuff aside, good to see you out and will be fun to race against you this year.

 

cheers

Kahoots.

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On 12/16/2019 at 9:43 AM, solosailor said:

Drifters are usually cut like jibs.    Spinnakers flown from the pole have to meet a certain mid-girth measurement no?  

We are in a "non-spinnaker" division, which is why the use of a bow sprit is to extend the "J" 

 

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On 12/15/2019 at 1:03 PM, Cal20sailor said:

A lot of really bad habits in the video and not just the pit.  But he did stand out.  Get your sailmaker to come out ostensibly to check the sails and have him put people in the right positions to do their positions.  The pole bouncing up and down is really bad and could kill someone on a bigger boat.  The guy sitting against the bulkhead and grinding with his left arm doing about 45 degs with each crank is ridiculous.  Nothing that can't be fixed easily and some folks just don't know better.  With the right attitude and desire, easily fixed.  

Why didn't you use lazy sheets and guys? The boat was designed for those and the best sailed ones use them. 

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1639.jpg

Good friends relayed some soft spots on the deck and put a sprit on her last year.  Wish I had a newer pick.  Also renamed it Entourage II.

Great boat and will be interesting to see how they do this year after they have sorted out what the new dimensions and sail arrangement can do for them.  Makes it a more effective racer for the Race to Mackinac and other distance stuff.  Not sure the hit they take on any ratings with the new look.

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I would like to hear from the original poster or the folks from Entourage about their selection of the 1D 35 platform over other options. I have seen the work done on Entourage and it looks like a new boat. Were there other options considered? What features / specs made the 1D35 the best option for such a large investment? 

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50 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

I would like to hear from the original poster or the folks from Entourage about their selection of the 1D 35 platform over other options. I have seen the work done on Entourage and it looks like a new boat. Were there other options considered? What features / specs made the 1D35 the best option for such a large investment? 

I am going to reach out to the owner.  If he isn't caught at the peak of Vail this holiday season I might get a response before spring.

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15 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Choosing to invest in throw money at an older boat may not be "sensible" it may just be "romantic".... 

 

corrected...

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1 hour ago, The Dark Knight said:

corrected...

Hardly, people invest their money where they choose, sometimes for financial gain, other times for psychic. "Throwing it away" is a canard, judging behavior that you have no insight on. Perhaps the sum was trivial to the individual, or the cause so important as to be worthy in their eyes.

Who are you to criticize? 

 

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1 hour ago, LionessRacing said:

Hardly, people invest their money where they choose, sometimes for financial gain, other times for psychic. "Throwing it away" is a canard, judging behavior that you have no insight on. Perhaps the sum was trivial to the individual, or the cause so important as to be worthy in their eyes.

Who are you to criticize? 

 

I threw a lot of money at my old Jeanneau. Was it worth it? fuck yeah as I enjoyed using the boat with the upgrades and enjoyed the complements when people noted how well equipped it was. I kind of even get a kick out of seeing how the new owners enjoy some of the upgrades (like the watermaker) as I often walk past the boat in the marina.

Eventually I will return to boat ownership and I will want to upgrade and improve it.

I will still think of it as throwing money at it and certainly not refer to it as "investing in". 

Criticising no, just being realistic.  

 

Edit...

I wrote "throw at" which is very different to "throw away" 

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4 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Hardly, people invest their money where they choose, sometimes for financial gain, other times for psychic. "Throwing it away" is a canard, judging behavior that you have no insight on. Perhaps the sum was trivial to the individual, or the cause so important as to be worthy in their eyes.

Who are you to criticize? 

 

Money used for sailboats is not an investment.

It's an expenditure.

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15 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Money used for sailboats is not an investment.

It's an expenditure.

Financially it's usually an expenditure; as it's not a  (depreciable) capital asset for the vast majority of people. 

 So is college. So is a trip to a lovely place, or a piece of art, all of which are significant costs and have benefits beyond the immediate. 

The investment in your serenity, quality of life and enjoyment is not something you can calculate an ROI on in any manner according to GAAP.  Do people continue to invest in their happiness and expend resources to improve their quality of life? 

 

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Given the price of new boats, refitting a good modern design (like the ID35) is a good call. You get great performance and security for pennies on the dollar. 

Well done. 

With a little practice that boat will be on many podiums. 

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5 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Financially it's usually an expenditure; as it's not a  (depreciable) capital asset for the vast majority of people. 

 So is college. So is a trip to a lovely place, or a piece of art, all of which are significant costs and have benefits beyond the immediate. 

The investment in your serenity, quality of life and enjoyment is not something you can calculate an ROI on in any manner according to GAAP.  Do people continue to invest in their happiness and expend resources to improve their quality of life? 

 

An investment is made with the expectation of a future financial return.

Ergo college and art (at least quality art) are investments, sailboats and trips are expenditures.

The "life enhancing" quality of financial transactions does not affect whether they are one or the other. Most money is spent with the intent that the purchase will enhance the persons life - the difference is the expectation of future profit from investments.

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5 hours ago, Movable Ballast said:

Given the price of new boats, refitting a good modern design (like the ID35) is a good call. You get great performance and security for pennies on the dollar. 

Well done. 

With a little practice that boat will be on many podiums. 

Implicit in your comment is that you think doing the same with older designs is not a good call.

How about boats like old Albergs, Valiant 40's, Concordias, Hinckleys etc?

Does the same apply or do you think the "hair on fire" pickle dish factor is what determines the worth of the project?

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56 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Implicit in your comment is that you think doing the same with older designs is not a good call.

How about boats like old Albergs, Valiant 40's, Concordias, Hinckleys etc?

Does the same apply or do you think the "hair on fire" pickle dish factor is what determines the worth of the project?

Sloopy, put down your pipe and go out and get some fresh air. Find a girl or something . The thread context is about rehabilitating
a racer. There is even a video for you!  Its not about refreshing an old Valiant.Your inference is way off.    Its not about you this time.  Go build your post count in PA with ED.

 

 

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On 12/15/2019 at 11:07 AM, Black Jack said:

The boat crew was relaxed after the race. we launched the third spin as a test with beers in hand. Sailmaker was on the boat and new sails coming.

Not everything is a race or a lesson. sometimes it is joy to take time and just see how thing goes.

I didn't see any beers...  Like others....  Confused...

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On 12/18/2019 at 8:05 AM, Tarnish said:

I would like to hear from the original poster or the folks from Entourage about their selection of the 1D 35 platform over other options. I have seen the work done on Entourage and it looks like a new boat. Were there other options considered? What features / specs made the 1D35 the best option for such a large investment? 

The choice of the 1D35 was based on friendship and familiarity.. The skipper of our boat has a good friend who owns Zaa Zaa, another 1D35. The boats have had an active class in SF until pretty recently. The PHRF for the boat at 36 is an attraction. It demands you have to sail the boat well to compete with the J boats. We wanted a Hawaii boat. We sailed on Alpha Puppy, a transpac 1D35 veteran which has proven it can be done on one - this afternoon sail made us secure in our hull choice. The boat is not exactly comfortable or set for even decent cruising. The girl is spartan.

In a move for prudence we went back to factory set up. The original winches were reconditioned and regreased. The sails we used last weekend were from a decade or more ago. They we sawn up to hold some shape. There was rat droppings in the sail bags as we hoisted them. Some of the reserve sails in the cabin were original launch sails. (For the critics of the video - it was the first time we really sailed it- we had 10 people on board, 7 never having been on board ever. I could not go forward to my station as my shoulder remains dislocated ) In a reality check - redoing the boat in costs of time and materials we could got close to a new J99. 

As for the romance of rehabbing a old boat - I have foolishly made it a life passion to bring back boats which should have gone to the dumpster. More is the folly as I have loved doing this with old wooden racers. Without a doubt - Wiser men buy new. I have thrown away thousands of hours doing it. Lovers of classics and sailing nostalgia chose the harder path of bringing a boat back and making it relevant. If I had used some hindsight wisdom - I should bought a j88 for myself instead. All this nonsense would have been avoided for us. In a personal emotional confession, there is nothing as good in sailing as bringing a boat back from doubtful to contender with time, passion, dollars and friendships. Perhaps I found that a bit of suffering with a lovely boat makes the victories of making the starting line so much more sweet - so I keep going with them. Beating the pants off a brand new boat and fleet with an old lively (leading) lady is one of those things so soul satisfying. 

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13 minutes ago, shaggy said:

I didn't see any beers...  Like others....  Confused...

Nonlinear iPhone editing tricks. Next time I shoot, I will edit in camera for purpose of reality. :)

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1 hour ago, Black Jack said:

In a personal emotional confession, there is nothing as good in sailing as bringing a boat back from doubtful to contender with time, passion, dollars and friendships. Perhaps I found that a bit of suffering with a lovely boat makes the victories of making the starting line so much more sweet - so I keep going with them. Beating the pants off a brand new boat and fleet with an old lively (leading) lady is one of those things so soul satisfying. 

Hear Hear !! whupping boats 1/2 your displacement and 1/10 your age has a charm all it's own. Doing it with vintage styled boat (and occasionally vintage sails) is worth the effort to see the Clorox bottle drivers get crushed

 

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1 hour ago, Black Jack said:

 In a reality check - redoing the boat in costs of time and materials we could got close to a new J99. 

 

What is the cost of a new J99?  $200k+?

You can find a completely and newly tricked out 1D35  with distance mods for about $60k

So how much are you into this for?

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2 hours ago, Cristoforo said:

Sloopy, put down your pipe and go out and get some fresh air. Find a girl or something . The thread context is about rehabilitating
a racer. There is even a video for you!  Its not about refreshing an old Valiant.Your inference is way off.    Its not about you this time.  Go build your post count in PA with ED.

Sorry eh?

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10 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Money used for sailboats is not an investment.

It's a lifestyle choice.

FIFY

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4 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

[C]ollege and art (at least quality art) are investments, sailboats and trips are expenditures.

Maybe. But many degrees are not career-enhancing. Indeed, a traditional (liberal arts) college education is not about vocational training; see generally Newman, The Idea of a University (1852).

Art too is a poor example of an investment. Even when the financial value appreciates (which is not often the case), much of that profit is consumed by insurance, conservation costs, and the various commissions (‘buyer’s premium’ and ‘seller’s premium’) levied by auction houses. The only dependable value is the enhancement of the owner’s quality of life.

Much like boat ownership! :)

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2 hours ago, Cristoforo said:

What is the cost of a new J99?  $200k+?

You can find a completely and newly tricked out 1D35  with distance mods for about $60k

So how much are you into this for?

Here is the thing - we got the boat with the entire deck and coach ground down to the epoxy and fiberglass layer. Since the boat was in Watsonville  at Moores shop it required long weekends to devote there and hours of driving back and forth to bay area. Ron Moore and crew were diligent - it what seemed like a a simple atraight forward job, was a painful 300 plus hour job for them  everyone worked to epoxy, hot and cold fill the deck to keep the project going. In the end the deck was reworked to better than factory and added a heavy frosting of knee reducing non skid - it took months to do as temperatures changed, rains and life slowed down the 18 month process. Every single thing to do on the deck was taken off and had to be remounted,  painstaking placement to the way it was originally, redrilling of new holes , new fasteners, dry mounted and then remounted with sealant and the many other things you need to do. The boom was sanded down and resprayed.  Just that was nearly 700  hours not counting Moore's work. You can guest estimate what that cost to that.

Then there was the trailer, the trailering and then the yard work here in Berkeley. The boat was in the Berkeley marina for 2 months. Rudder and new expensive rudder bearings done,  In another truth - the yard was slow and frankly a bit disappointing.They sprayed a black widow bottom and charged as if the thing was dipped in gold. They discouraged DYI work and the yard shitter was locked after hours. The rigger was competent by also slow as he is a one man show and has many clients. Parts took a while to come homeless who live along the marina and boat pirates roaming the yard made it impossible to leave anything for a moment when one went out of sight,  Over 40 boat bucks for that.

Let's say if you were to pay yourself 75 dollars an hour to do DIY work, plus add the 800 hours of real yard pay work, add the rigger bills and then add up materials, wear and tear on cars, tools and overnight stays, food and extras. This does not include exposures to chemicals, loss of consortium and giving up other things life offerers you so you can rehab the boat. You would be pretty close to a new J99. 

IMHO - Most 1D35s need not be taken to bare hull like this one. And in way a 50 to 60k boat with a solid deck, good motor and sails is a bargain in getting in the sled game. They are fun boats and with some love they are great affordable tickets to ride. I thing they will become a better bargain in the years to come but it does come with all work to be down to keep em safe, floating and fast.

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8 hours ago, Captain Bastard said:

Is that line wrapped the wrong way around the winch drum at 1:58?

 

looks that way :wacko:

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6 minutes ago, vdm said:

Why didn't you convert it to a sprit?

Maybe the single best thing you can do to a 1D35.

The symmetrical spin from a recent race proved we could go deeper, faster than using an A sail as similar rated boats. DDW, we were faster than the J who needed to cover more distance. The sprit will come when we develop it from factory form. Since the One design is nearly gone - the boat will be rigged for phrf. We will can go longer if that makes sense or do as others have done.

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Maybe in a straight windward leeward it helps but with the sprit the boat is much more fun to sail.

Good luck with the project, great to see the boat getting refreshed.  You'll have lots of fun with it.

 

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If you're sailing longer courses you can also consider flying an asymmetric from the conventional pole.

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