bowclimber

J/111 staysail

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I’m adding a furling J/4 to my 122 for shorthanded offshore sailing. Lots of work to make an upwind capable setup. The staysails JL92S mention won’t need as much luff tension and should be easier/cheaper to rig. 

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Thanks. A J/111 used a North jib with wire luff for reaching with a spinnaker. Tacked to the weather rail bow cleat. Added a knot of boatspeed they said. I am wondering if there is a similar set up that anyone has used.  

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Last I've read on this topic people were struggling on what the best tack point should be.  Some were ascribing to the idea of having that tack point pretty far aft, behind the front hatch IIRC.  I'm also interested in what people have come up with.

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We did lots of work with the staysail on the J/109, and it was very efficient in most conditions. We tacked it to a padeye just aft of the anchor box locker.

staysail-j111-10.jpg

With the same setup on the J/111 we got almost no effect. 

Distance from the gennaker tack to the main on the J/109 is 4.05+1.67=5.72 and on the J/111 4.22+2.43=6.65, 16% longer.

staysail-j111-12-1170x878.jpg

We tried several different tacking points, ending up quite far aft. As seen on the photo, it’s about 100 cm aft of the previous padeye and 50 cm in front of the hatch. 

The main effect of the staysail is to increase the flow on the back of the main, and the bigger STL on the J/111 makes the geometry quite different compared to most boats. You can see the same thing on many bigger modern boats, where the staysail ends up closer to the mast.

Now we’re getting 2-3% speed increase in most conditions, so well worth the effort. We run the staysail from TWS ~6 knots up to 18 knots, when we’re planing  and keep the jib up instead.

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16 hours ago, ZeeZee said:

Did you make any reinforcements below deck to fit the pad eye? 

Just a 15 cm diameter carbon backing plate. The load should be fairly low.

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I dont believe under phrf we would be allowed a staysail.  Are you saying that the benefits of leaving the jib up in 6-18knts is 2-3%  At what range of TWA would you use it?

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29 minutes ago, jacksparrow said:

I dont believe under phrf we would be allowed a staysail.  Are you saying that the benefits of leaving the jib up in 6-18knts is 2-3%  At what range of TWA would you use it?

Pretty sure you are allowed a spinnaker staysail in PHRF.  It is no different than flying a jib with the kite up.  

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12 hours ago, jacksparrow said:

I dont believe under phrf we would be allowed a staysail.  Are you saying that the benefits of leaving the jib up in 6-18knts is 2-3%  At what range of TWA would you use it?

The standard jib would not be as efficient in this range. But the staysail tacked just aft of the hatch gave us almost nothing, 1-2% in optimum conditions. Tacked further aft, and sheeted properly we get 2-3% in many conditions/angles.

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On 12/28/2019 at 8:18 PM, Roleur said:

Pretty sure you are allowed a spinnaker staysail in PHRF.  It is no different than flying a jib with the kite up.  

We are getting a staysail for next season.  In discussions with the PHRF technical committee and the ORR folks at US Sailing, there would be no penalty for having a staysail.  We are exploring tack positions with the designer but will likely lean towards the route that Blur has used in tacking 50 CM in front of the hatch.

Hroth

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The effects of a staysail on a 109 and 105 which is basically unfurling the jib are measurable.  We saw boat speeds jump 3/10s of a knot on certain angles,...albeit very tight and specific angles.  

Curious with the comments whether the 111 has restrictions on tacking down one aft on port racing.  With a jib up that is of smaller size, doesn't this make the sailplan efficient under specific reaching conditions?

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For what its worth, on the 125 we only deploy the staysail in over 12 knots of TWS.   We found it was not helpful below that.   Around the cans if we have the #3 up (over 20 Tws) we just use it as the staysail.   Offshore ofer 20 TWS we use the staysail, until we have too much power, generally around the middle of the A4.    

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I'm sure glad we got away from the IOR rule and all the sails you had to carry to optimize boat performance...

LT 1 H1, 2, 3, 4, Lt spin, med spin, bullet-proof spin, spin staysail, blooper, etc.

Code 0, Code 65, Code 55, A1, A1.5, A2, A3, A4, A5, Staysail, lt class jib, hvy class jib, etc, etc...

:rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, Crash said:

I'm sure glad we got away from the IOR rule and all the sails you had to carry to optimize boat performance...

LT 1 H1, 2, 3, 4, Lt spin, med spin, bullet-proof spin, spin staysail, blooper, etc.

Code 0, Code 65, Code 55, A1, A1.5, A2, A3, A4, A5, Staysail, lt class jib, hvy class jib, etc, etc...

:rolleyes:

You forgot the MH 1

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What about the JT and the GS. Can’t leave without them. 

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In other news....

Interested in thoughts from J/111 Lake Michigan owners on allowing stay sails as part of the Chi-Mac inventory for the one-design section.

In the past, the class rules have been amended to allow 4 spinnakers (one of which may be a Code 0) for the race, rather than restrict to just the 2 class kites.  Other sail restrictions remain in place.

Addition of a stay sail would not incur a rating change per ORR and would help the J/111 class stay competitive with the larger ORR fleet.

Hrothgar

Variance

USA 100

 

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The ORR rule for sheeting headsails applies. ( 10.05 ).The staysail clew can not be further aft of the LP line of the largest jib. If the tack is moved towards the mast as in Blur , the LP of the staysail would have to be shortened to about 65% of the "J" measurement . Not sure if the smaller sail would be any better than a larger staysail tacked further forward. Say 85% of "J .

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