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Grande Mastere Dreade

Showtime capsize on return trip

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on facebook , Adventure of a Sailor Girl has reported that Showtime's crew, a Ker 40,  had to be rescued... 

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Drama overnight. At around 2:30am Showtime set off it's Epirb off the NSW coast on way back from Hobart . It is believed that the keel broke away and the boat overturned. All crew were able to make it out and launch the life raft. Now all safe in police boat on way to Port Kembla. Well done to Rob Buchanan and crew for handling such a dangerous situation so well. And thanks to Marine Rescue who responded immediately and professionally.


 

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Keel fell off? Must have been hit by a wave. A wave in the ocean? Chance in a million.

 

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13 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Keel fell off? Must have been hit by a wave. A wave in the ocean? Chance in a million.

 

Possible that it happened outside the environment?

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The keel? There are strict regulations on the materials these can be made of.  Cardboards right out. No cardboard derivatives.

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2 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

on facebook , Adventure of a Sailor Girl has reported that Showtime's crew, a Ker 40,  had to be rescued... 


 

already discussed

 

 

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16 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

The keel? There are strict regulations on the materials these can be made of.  Cardboards right out. No cardboard derivatives.

fucking idiot....

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Just ignore the top deplorable, this can become a fun and informative thread.

Did anyone find the keel yet?

 

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1 minute ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Just ignore the top deplorable, this can become a fun and informative thread.

Did anyone find the keel yet?

 

It should be floating nearby.

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To the bottom like a proverbial stone me thinks.  Must be some salvage value if anyone is interested though.  WTF, keel fell off and the bow stayed attached??

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Sad to see one of our designs lost, and relieved that crew are all ok.  I should clarify However that that particular keel was not designed by us or built by McConaghy,  Apparently there were lower cost alternatives locally which were chosen.

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1 hour ago, Jason Ker said:

Sad to see one of our designs lost, and relieved that crew are all ok.  I should clarify However that that particular keel was not designed by us or built by McConaghy,  Apparently there were lower cost alternatives locally which were chosen.

Jason, you must have noticed this is a very serious thread, and there is also a special thread for deniers.

Tell us, did any of your designs ever lose a keel? I seem to remember something like that.

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25 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Jason, you must have noticed this is a very serious thread, and there is also a special thread for deniers.

Tell us, did any of your designs ever lose a keel? I seem to remember something like that.

More like better options locally

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7 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

on facebook , Adventure of a Sailor Girl has reported that Showtime's crew, a Ker 40,  had to be rescued... 


 

The original post came from one of the owners. All crew are safe and back home. We picked them up Earlier this afternoon at port Kembla thanks to the great crew from the water police boat that picked them up at around 530am and brought them back up the coast

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2 minutes ago, Rumpig said:

More like better options locally

You seem to be replying to Jason's post.

Still, I don't understand what you mean by "better".

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10 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

You seem to be replying to Jason's post.

Still, I don't understand what you mean by "better".

Yep, sorry about that

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10 minutes ago, Rumpig said:

Yep. Sorry about that. Keel design and engineering was done by Andy Dovell. 

Not a "lower cost" designer as such, I would think. Trust he will come along here when he knows more after inspection of the hull.

And Rumpig, thanks for assisting the undoubtedly shaken crew, and do keep posting here please, the full story if you can!

 

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2 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Not a "lower cost" designer as such, I would think. Trust he will come along here when he knows more after inspection of the hull.

And Rumpig, thanks for assisting the undoubtedly shaken crew, and do keep posting here please, the full story if you can!

 

Full story not my place. When the owner is ready I’m sure he will

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55 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Jason, you must have noticed this is a very serious thread, and there is also a special thread for deniers.

Tell us, did any of your designs ever lose a keel? I seem to remember something like that.

We've designed many keels and not lost one. Our reputation is important to us, and in all other cases of keel replacement that I know of for our designs, we've done the designs and it would be natural for people to assume that was the case here if I didn't state the facts.

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1 hour ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Jason, you must have noticed this is a very serious thread, and there is also a special thread for deniers.

Tell us, did any of your designs ever lose a keel? I seem to remember something like that.

I don’t remember Ker boats being associated with losing keels, at least, not in Juan K style anyway. 

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49 minutes ago, Jason Ker said:

We've designed many keels and not lost one. Our reputation is important to us, and in all other cases of keel replacement that I know of for our designs, we've done the designs and it would be natural for people to assume that was the case here if I didn't state the facts.

I got to believe you. This must be a typo then: 

No further details given, you might want to take this up with World Sailing. (In fact it seems that was a ...... Juan K.) :)

 

26 minutes ago, mad said:

I don’t remember Ker boats being associated with losing keels, at least, not in Juan K style anyway. 

Now you mention a repeat offender of repute, must be the top scorer !

Though there are quite a few other top designers who lost keels, and it nearly always ends with blaming the builder.

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10 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

I got to believe you. This must be a typo then: 

No further details given, you might want to take this up with World Sailing. (In fact it seems that was a ...... Juan K.) :)

 

Now you mention a repeat offender of repute, must be the top scorer !

Though there are quite a few other top designers who lost keels, and it nearly always ends with blaming the builder.

Wow... Huge typo never knew that was out there, will ask them to correct it, thanks for pointing out.

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17 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

I got to believe you. This must be a typo then: 

No further details given, you might want to take this up with World Sailing. (In fact it seems that was a ...... Juan K.) :)

 

Now you mention a repeat offender of repute, must be the top scorer !

Though there are quite a few other top designers who lost keels, and it nearly always ends with blaming the builder.

Well it does seem that Jason is wrongly associated with the Bounder incident ;)

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4 hours ago, Jason Ker said:

Sad to see one of our designs lost, and relieved that crew are all ok.  I should clarify However that that particular keel was not designed by us or built by McConaghy,  Apparently there were lower cost alternatives locally which were chosen.

The way you wash your hands of the problem makes me think you are actually the Australian PM with a sock puppet account.

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2 minutes ago, Swanno said:

The way you wash your hands of the problem makes me think you are actually the Australian PM with a sock puppet account.

I’m guessing there’s a story to this waiting to come out judging by a few of the comments!? 

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5 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

I got to believe you. This must be a typo then: 

No further details given, you might want to take this up with World Sailing. (In fact it seems that was a ...... Juan K.) :)

 

Now you mention a repeat offender of repute, must be the top scorer !

Though there are quite a few other top designers who lost keels, and it nearly always ends with blaming the builder.

Thanks for the link Fiji.

    Not surprised to see the Cape Fear 38 keel loss in that report. Lots of lessons to be learned there...

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4 hours ago, mad said:

I’m guessing there’s a story to this waiting to come out judging by a few of the comments!? 

Certainly when someone modifies our design without our involvement it ceases to be our problem technically, but it remains important to make sure people are aware of that as our name is in on the boat.  Put simply 100% of our keel designs have remained attached to their boats, 100% of keels designed by others for our boats have not.

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5 hours ago, Swanno said:

The way you wash your hands of the problem makes me think you are actually the Australian PM with a sock puppet account.

If a keel I hadn’t designed was attached to a boat with my name on, I’d get the word out as well!  He designed the structure for one particular keel, not the one that gave up. 

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3 hours ago, Jason Ker said:

Put simply 100% of our keel designs have remained attached to their boats, 100% of keels designed by others for our boats have not.

Sorry mate, but that does not make any sense, think about it. Put rather simply indeed.

I know you put more logic in your designs!

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Sorry mate, but that does not make any sense, think about it. Put rather simply indeed.

I know you put more logic in your designs!

 

 

lol ... of course he means "less than 100% of keels designed by others for our boats have remained attached," unless in fact 100% of other designs have actually fallen off.

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8 minutes ago, Osprey05 said:

lol ... of course he means "less than 100% of keels designed by others for our boats have remained attached," unless in fact 100% of other designs have actually fallen off.

Yea lol, that's not what I meant though...

I was objecting to the kind of politician's logic.

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How many other Ker designs have keels not designed by Ker? 

I don't know, 

but if it's none, then it seems he's absolutely correct.

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5 minutes ago, See Level said:

How many other Ker designs have keels not designed by Ker? 

I don't know, 

but if it's none, then it seems he's absolutely correct.

As far as I'm aware this was the only example of a Ker design with a keel not designed by us.  Allegedly we were overpriced.

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20 minutes ago, Jason Ker said:

As far as I'm aware this was the only example of a Ker design with a keel not designed by us.  Allegedly we were overpriced.

I don't think I'd want to go forward on a design contract in that situation.

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39 minutes ago, Jason Ker said:

As far as I'm aware this was the only example of a Ker design with a keel not designed by us.  Allegedly we were overpriced.

I guess they got what they paid for.

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19 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

I don't think I'd want to go forward on a design contract in that situation.

someone commissioned a competition build from an upper-tier designer and upper-tier builder.... and then said "but, hey, I want to see if I can save a few pennies by having someone else design/build the keel"....?

Boggles the mind.

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WTF is wrong with some of you? Jason didn’t build the fucking thing. Also It’s a compromised design it should not even be legally called a Ker40. It’s a Wingnut 40 now.  

 

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7 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

I don't think I'd want to go forward on a design contract in that situation.

We quote consistent fees for keel designs, which we think represents the work required,  including extensive FEA with NX Nastran.  The owner of a second hand boat Is free to make his choice to use us or go elsewhere

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3 minutes ago, Jason Ker said:

We quote consistent fees for keel designs, which we think represents the work required,  including extensive FEA with NX Nastran.  The owner of a second hand boat Is free to make his choice to use us or go elsewhere

So it was a 2nd hand mod?

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3 hours ago, Jason Ker said:

As far as I'm aware this was the only example of a Ker design with a keel not designed by us.  Allegedly we were overpriced.

 

3 hours ago, fastyacht said:

I don't think I'd want to go forward on a design contract in that situation.

 

3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I guess they got what they paid for.

 

3 hours ago, sledracr said:

someone commissioned a competition build from an upper-tier designer and upper-tier builder.... and then said "but, hey, I want to see if I can save a few pennies by having someone else design/build the keel"....?

Boggles the mind.

Now boys and girls,

 

Before you get on the price bandwagon and have ago at the owner for being a cheapskate and not spending the dollars with Jason or MaConaghy’s stop and have a think about this. 

 

Jason is based in England and his work is charged out in English pounds and the Australian owner is paying in Australian dollars and it’s almost a 2 to 1 difference in the pound to the au dollar, $1 au dollar is currently buying 0.53 pounds. So Jason is the best first option if money is no option. I’ve worked with Andy Dovell and he is a very well respected naval architecture and was the one who designed the Keel package for the modifications I understand.  He is Australian based and has worked on many high profile campaigns. He is probably around the same  price of Jason for the design work. The difference is he is paid in Australian dollars not pounds. 

 

As far as McConaghy’s goes, they are a very busy company and their prices reflect this and even finding a slot to do the work is a problem for small jobs. 

 

So please don’t have ago at the owner for trying to improve his boat on a budget. We have many great Boat builders here is Australia with lots based to NSW who are equal to the standards of McConaghy’s and are a lot cheaper as they don’t have the overheads or  100 ft owners to deal with. 

 

Pulpit

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

So the question remains, "why did the keel fall off?"

We may never get the answer to that question. 

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7 minutes ago, Rumpig said:

We may never get the answer to that question. 

In the Whitbread in 93-94, "Dolphin and Youth" almost lost the keel between Australia and Chile. There was a tense satphone call between the boat and the Humphreys design office about what to do with the problem. Interestinglty the skipper was also a Humphries (Matt, different spelling/unrealted). After the transatlantic the boat was on the hard and gettng worked on. There was a lot of cracking in the ffinish around the keel. "Oh, it's the fairing cracking." Well, my thought at the time and I expressed it, was that there was too much movement. After the race I was told about it by the crewmember who I'd talked to that day. IT was quite illuminating.

 

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

So the question remains, "why did the keel fall off?"

A wave hit it? 

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

So the question remains, "why did the keel fall off?"

And has the boat been recovered?

Curious to know if the structure fell out of the boat? the bulb fell out or the fin snapped?

 

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9 minutes ago, 10thTonner said:

A wave hit it? 

According to the article in the AFR, wind caused the keel to fall off. 

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

So the question remains, "why did the keel fall off?"

It's not a question.

The boat wasn't built strong enough to hold it on.

Pretty simple really.

Seems like people have forgotten when that didn't happen. Back in the G.O.D.'s (40 years ago) it was essentially unheard of for a keel to fall off - particularly when it wasn't caused by damage like a severe grounding.

Now it seems the attitude is more like "The keel fell off? Bummer".

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8 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

It's not a question.

The boat wasn't built strong enough to hold it on.

Pretty simple really.

Seems like people have forgotten when that didn't happen. Back in the G.O.D.'s (40 years ago) it was essentially unheard of for a keel to fall off - particularly when it wasn't caused by damage like a severe grounding.

Now it seems the attitude is more like "The keel fell off? Bummer".

DRUM was the first big one I remember. Then it started happening with surprising regulariry. Mike Plant. Then Isabelle Autissier. And quite a few others.

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24 minutes ago, Swanno said:

According to the article in the AFR, wind caused the keel to fall off. 

The gravity believers would like to have a word with you...

- Stumbling

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On 1/4/2020 at 9:32 PM, Ishmael said:

Keel fell off? Must have been hit by a wave. A wave in the ocean? Chance in a million.

 

Submerged container would do the trick.

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Submerged container would do the trick.

Yeah, no. The GL grounding case, and GL scantlings are required for an IRC certificate, is specifically designs so that a grounding will not result in keel loss Not to mention that submerged containers are at the bottom, not magically suspended in the water column.

The boat wasn't built strong enough to hold it on.

A typically simplistic analysis. First, the boat wasn't built to hold this keel on. That said, it is unlikely that the new keel arrangement significantly changed the RM as this would necessitate a new mast, new chain plates, new standing rigging and substantial new structure throughout the yacht as these things are engineered as a system and are highly interdependent. It is more likely that the new fin was deeper and lighter, reducing weight while maintaining the same RM and that the structure in the yacht is not a likely point of failure. I would expect the keel design and/or construction and/or the fasteners.

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4 minutes ago, Moonduster said:

Submerged container would do the trick.

Yeah, no. The GL grounding case, and GL scantlings are required for an IRC certificate, is specifically designs so that a grounding will not result in keel loss Not to mention that submerged containers are at the bottom, not magically suspended in the water column.

The boat wasn't built strong enough to hold it on.

A typically simplistic analysis. First, the boat wasn't built to hold this keel on. That said, it is unlikely that the new keel arrangement significantly changed the RM as this would necessitate a new mast, new chain plates, new standing rigging and substantial new structure throughout the yacht as these things are engineered as a system and are highly interdependent. It is more likely that the new fin was deeper and lighter, reducing weight while maintaining the same RM and that the structure in the yacht is not a likely point of failure. I would expect the keel design and/or construction and/or the fasteners.

Utter speculation. Righting moment theory plausible.

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Sure, of course it's utter speculation - there's no data available. Thank you for stating the obvious. But by comparison, the other speculation is highly implausible.

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15 minutes ago, Moonduster said:

It is more likely that the new fin was deeper and lighter, reducing weight while maintaining the same RM

i can't find the post anymore - but didn't the owner post here or in the other thread that the new keel had less righting moment than the old one?

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1 minute ago, us7070 said:

i can't find the post anymore - but didn't the owner post here or in the other thread that the new keel had less righting moment than the old one?

 

This one?

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Report post   #2549
Posted 10 hours ago
As some here know I am one of the owners of Showtime and do all the offshore races in it.

Just to throw a few facts into the uninformed opinion. 

The keel was designed by Andy Dovell, to a similar design he has used for many other yachts. The design and the fabrication plan were then certified by DNV-GL. The builder then signed off on the fabrication report and provided 100% NDT for certification. All of this was required to obtain the ISAF certificate you need to be able to race offshore these days. Not exactly a half assed exercise.

The new keel design has reduced bulb weight by 369kg and fin by 318kg, despite the increase in length of 400mm this has reduced the righting moment of the boat and resulted in lower loads on the structure than under the original configuration. So despite Jason Ker's self serving bleating's, he remains solely responsible for the adequacy of the internal structural design. Whether this in anyway caused or contributed to the keel lose, I don't know, nor does anyone else at this time.   

The delivery crew, who were quite experienced and who can be credited with the positive outcome in a very dangerous situation can not be faulted in their seamanship under difficult conditions. 

I am only happy that all crew got off safely from what was a harrowing experience where only cool thinking averted a tragedy. I have no interest in playing some blame game. if the boat is recovered, then we will likely be able to positively identify the failure mechanism, but until then it is pure speculation to say who is or isn't responsible. 

 

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On 1/5/2020 at 7:36 AM, Swanno said:

The way you wash your hands of the problem makes me think you are actually the Australian PM with a sock puppet account.

There's a lot in Jason's statement.  Things with "We didn't design the keel" mean:

1)- We didn't have anything to do with this, which leads to...

2)- Was it heavier that the attachment point was designed to handle?

3)- Was it improperly attached by the people who mounted it?

4)- Was the design too heavy in the bottom, (bulb?) for the hull to support?

5)- Was the attachment properly designed by the designer?

A ton of questions here folks....

 

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1 minute ago, RobbieB said:

There's a lot in Jason's statement.  Things with "We didn't design the keel" mean:

1)- We didn't have anything to do with this, which leads to...

2)- Was it heavier that the attachment point was designed to handle?

3)- Was it improperly attached by the people who mounted it?

4)- Was the design too heavy in the bottom, (bulb?) for the hull to support?

5)- Was the attachment properly designed by the designer?

A ton of questions here folks....

 

Exactly, probably best to wait for some real details before getting the pitchforks out.

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Just now, inhiding said:

"Wait"??

Surely, you jest!

No shit, this is SA.  There isn't anything about 'waiting' in the terms and conditions of the site.

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5 minutes ago, inhiding said:

"Wait"??

Surely, you jest!

Pitchforks, burn at the stake, drawn and quartered, put on the rack... All done first!!!!

Truth may come later, but ignore it because mayhem is so much fun!

It is Sailing Anarchy.

- Stumbling

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2 hours ago, Moonduster said:

Sure, of course it's utter speculation - there's no data available. Thank you for stating the obvious. But by comparison, the other speculation is highly implausible.

Interesting to read the post asserting lower RM.

Of course that has nothing to do directly with the adequacy of the keel or keel hull join to handle the loads. Also longercspan keels have greater hydro moments.

I am inclined to reserve any judgement against Ker unless something special is learned. His own keels have never fallen off. his hull structure has always proven adequate. I find the assertion upthread that Ker could have designed inadequate hull structure to be highly irresponsible blathering.

Of course by definition a post on SA might be considered irresponsible. Especially if made by the ed with regards to ***********.

D @ N M e yr haha love doing that!!

Edit.  The post I was referring to seems to have disappeared. Odd!

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

longercspan keels have greater hydro moments.

yes - moment of inertia goes as r^2

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10 hours ago, fastyacht said:

DRUM was the first big one I remember. Then it started happening with surprising regulariry. Mike Plant. Then Isabelle Autissier. And quite a few others.

Drum was the first I remember too.

Now keels falling off seems be regarded in much the same vein as a dismasting or a broken rudder - serious but just one of those things that happens. :rolleyes:

Instead of inexcusable - as it should be.

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17 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Drum was the first I remember too.

Pandemonium was ...only a couple of years later?  1989?

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4 minutes ago, sledracr said:

Pandemonium was ...only a couple of years later?  1989?

Forgot abotu that one!

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And the keel fell off Digby Taylors boat in two handed Osaka race back when....Can't remember boat name or year. Crewman lost sadly.

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Pretty certain the keel loss on Charley predates Drum.  

Charley was owned by Nolan Bushnell and was a Holland design as well.  She was a 67 foot IOR sled that took line honours in the '83 Transpac and '84 Vic-Maui. Lost her keel on delivery back from Vic-Maui IIRC.

Probably didn't come across as such a media event since: a) Simon Lebon wasn't onboard, and b) the crew managed to keep her upright for the duration of the trip

Charley_2017.jpg

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22 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

Pretty certain the keel loss on Charley predates Drum.  

Charley was owned by Nolan Bushnell and was a Holland design as well.  She was a 67 foot IOR sled that took line honours in the '83 Transpac and '84 Vic-Maui. Lost her keel on delivery back from Vic-Maui IIRC.

Probably didn't come across as such a media event since: a) Simon Lebon wasn't onboard, and b) the crew managed to keep her upright for the duration of the trip

Charley_2017.jpg

DRUM was '85. That's one year after Charley.

The list is growing.

 

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From afr.com: "It's undamaged other than the keel, I reckon.....Mr Buchanan said."

Excuse me for re-posting here what I've already posted on the other thread my professional view of by far the most likely series of events in relation to the loss of the keel we did not design:.  

I would assume, based on the very limited information, that after a tension failure in the windward keel side plate welds, the leeward plate welds would have gone into bending, putting the I beam Internal longitudinal beam into torsion (certainly not a loadscase they are intended for) and after a short while the leeward keel plate welds would have failed and the keel would have dropped quickly to the bottom. Terrifying experience  for the guys on board!

 Although the information is limited, we can reasonably assume the above because there would have been a significant stress concentration at the junction between the top plate and the side walls of the hollow box tube, coinciding with the weld being in tension.

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2 hours ago, armchairadmiral said:

And the keel fell off Digby Taylors boat in two handed Osaka race back when....Can't remember boat name or year. Crewman lost sadly.

Castaway Enterprise. Did Hobart on her the year before.

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8 hours ago, mad said:

 

This one?

Quote

The new keel design has reduced bulb weight by 369kg and fin by 318kg, despite the increase in length of 400mm this has reduced the righting moment of the boat and resulted in lower loads on the structure than under the original configuration.

 

It would be a challenging engineering exercise to remove 318 kg from the fin and not reduce its strength. That is 700 lbs of metal not there anymore in real units. The reduced righting moment may not have reduced the loads on the keel attachment given the 0.4m increase in lever arm. Hard to know without many more particulars. 

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2 hours ago, 12 metre said:

Pretty certain the keel loss on Charley predates Drum.  

Charley was owned by Nolan Bushnell and was a Holland design as well.  She was a 67 foot IOR sled that took line honours in the '83 Transpac and '84 Vic-Maui. Lost her keel on delivery back from Vic-Maui IIRC.

Probably didn't come across as such a media event since: a) Simon Lebon wasn't onboard, and b) the crew managed to keep her upright for the duration of the trip

Charley_2017.jpg

Although Charley seems to be sliding along quite well in that pic, putting "IOR" next to the word "sled" strikes me as a bit contradictory.

I always thought "IOR" was just another word for "entrenching tool".

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47 minutes ago, DDW said:

It would be a challenging engineering exercise to remove 318 kg from the fin and not reduce its strength. That is 700 lbs of metal not there anymore in real units. The reduced righting moment may not have reduced the loads on the keel attachment given the 0.4m increase in lever arm. Hard to know without many more particulars. 

The material would have been much stronger than the original cast material, and being hollow is very efficient,, but the devil is in the detail, specifically the welded connection between the vertical hollow spar and the horizontal top plate, which is part of the keel I hasten to add, though it sits in a recess in the hull.

 

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It would be a challenging engineering exercise to remove 318 kg from the fin and not reduce its strength

Not really. If the original fin were machined from a solid ingot and the new fin were a welded structure, it's easy to imagine that the design strength of the new fin could exceed the original fin depending on the materials; the mass has little to do with the strength.

It's also easy to imagine that the welds were contaminated or otherwise not up to par.

 

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27 minutes ago, Moonduster said:

It would be a challenging engineering exercise to remove 318 kg from the fin and not reduce its strength

Not really. If the original fin were machined from a solid ingot and the new fin were a welded structure, it's easy to imagine that the design strength of the new fin could exceed the original fin depending on the materials; the mass has little to do with the strength.

It's also easy to imagine that the welds were contaminated or otherwise not up to par.

 

Most of the original mass was there so we could tick the 'Solid Iron' box on the IRC form, back when that was important.

Welds in tension are risky, you certainly wouldn't get an airplane certified that had its wings held on that way...

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I seem to remember a fairly recent keel loss that involved weld failure. But I cannot recall the details

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2 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Remember this?

 

I like this post from that thread:

image.thumb.png.54bd220007c80c28bc60ecf98765b221.png

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Based on the information we have, it seems almost certain that the keel's top plate, which  would be a ~35mm thick steel plate siting sub-flush to the hull, remains bolted to the boat with its 12 bolts.  it would therefore be misleading to say (as some have) that the keel ( which we didn't design) detached from the boat, when almost certainly it 'detached' from itself.

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Jason,

I understand your desire to distance yourself from this incident. I would too in your position.  You have put your position out there very clearly.

But ... speculation by you is of no help at all.

For example, see here. The information is limited (as you conceded two hours earlier) and not yet verified and you conclude "it is almost certain"., which indicates even you are not sure.

49 minutes ago, Jason Ker said:

Based on the information we have, it seems almost certain that the keel's top plate, which  would be a ~35mm thick steel plate siting sub-flush to the hull, remains bolted to the boat with its 12 bolts.  it would therefore be misleading to say (as some have) that the keel ( which we didn't design) detached from the boat, when almost certainly it 'detached' from itself.

and here,  "I would assume" x 2 and "very limited information".  

3 hours ago, Jason Ker said:

From afr.com: "It's undamaged other than the keel, I reckon.....Mr Buchanan said."

Excuse me for re-posting here what I've already posted on the other thread my professional view of by far the most likely series of events in relation to the loss of the keel we did not design:.  

I would assume, based on the very limited information, that after a tension failure in the windward keel side plate welds, the leeward plate welds would have gone into bending, putting the I beam Internal longitudinal beam into torsion (certainly not a loadscase they are intended for) and after a short while the leeward keel plate welds would have failed and the keel would have dropped quickly to the bottom. Terrifying experience  for the guys on board!

 Although the information is limited, we can reasonably assume the above because there would have been a significant stress concentration at the junction between the top plate and the side walls of the hollow box tube, coinciding with the weld being in tension.

On another note, you  assume that lower cost means lesser quality. Not always true in my experience.

On 1/5/2020 at 6:46 PM, Jason Ker said:

Sad to see one of our designs lost, and relieved that crew are all ok.  I should clarify However that that particular keel was not designed by us or built by McConaghy,  Apparently there were lower cost alternatives locally which were chosen.

If I were you, I would bow out of this discussion no matter how much it may irk you. We all know your position by now.

Feel free to ignore my suggestion, many do.

daniel

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

I seem to remember a fairly recent keel loss that involved weld failure. But I cannot recall the details

Excalibur?

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