Roleur

How are J/88's doing in PHRF light air?

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I was just looking at the ORC ratings of the J/88 and J/109 (my reference for around here) and note that the coastal GPH rating matches quite well the difference in PHRF rating, but the light air rating in ORC is about 10 seconds slower than the average for the J/88 versus the J/109.  That sounds like the boat would struggle in light air with a single rating (PHRF). 

Any comments on that?  We have a lot light air distance races around here.  

Trying to find a good double-handed 30ish footer that performs well in light air is tricky.  It seems if they perform well in light air then they fall over in breeze with only two people.  

I also note the J/88 and J/99 have similar ORC ratings for light air and the 99 is notably faster in breeze.  No real surprise there.  Other than the 99 might have an even tougher battle in light air with a single rating, assuming that rating accounts for its performance potential in breeze.  

Maybe the J/109 isn't the best reference as that boat is particularly good in light air.  Comparing the 88 to our J/120 there is only a 4 sec/mile delta between the average and light air ratings.  Still doesn't favor the 88 in light air.  

What does a new J/88 run these days.  Lots of used ones on the market for around $120k.  All up new is $175k?  $200k?

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My guess is a new 88 outfitted 160k includes dealer typical discount. My ‘16 was 130 with sails and electronics.

light air 4-8 knots we do very well boat for boat 

med to heavy air up wind stay home 

off the wind up to 15 we do excellent

off the wind high teens and up bigger planing boats with big rigs are gone

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On 1/15/2020 at 3:34 PM, Greyhound37 said:

My guess is a new 88 outfitted 160k includes dealer typical discount. My ‘16 was 130 with sails and electronics.

light air 4-8 knots we do very well boat for boat 

med to heavy air up wind stay home 

off the wind up to 15 we do excellent

off the wind high teens and up bigger planing boats with big rigs are gone

For between 1/3 to 1/4 of the the purchase price a J/92 with the class legal 155% LP genoa and ~90m^2 a-sail will crush the J/88 boat on boat.

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1.sm_none_5.png  USA 14Thin ManJ 92Todd Aven11.02.sm_none_5.png  USA 52386EclipseSabre 386Marc Berkowitz22.03.Doyle Sailmakers  USA 402RaptorJ 105Frank Conway33.04.sm_none_5.png  USA 81NevermoreJ 88Ken & Drew Hall44.05.sm_none_5.png  USA 234ArgoCatalina 400Boris Keselman55.06.sm_none_5.png  USA 34AlbóndigasJ 88Justin Scagnelli66.07.sm_none_5.png  USA 69329Renegade YCCSoverel 33Midshipman Tom Simon77.08.sm_none_5.png  680SynergyJ 105Henrik Pedersen88.09.sm_none_5.png  USA 46831UdachaTripp 33Vladimir Koulik99.010.sm_none_5.png  USA 340Big E.Z.J 105Eric Bicknese 1010.011.sm_none_5.png  USA 222EagleX-332Ernie Bivona 1111.012.sm_none_5.png  USA 87354ConcordiaEricson 381Johan Bengtsson 1212.013.sm_none_5.png  USA 26SuspectJ 92Mike 

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On 1/15/2020 at 4:34 PM, Greyhound37 said:

My guess is a new 88 outfitted 160k includes dealer typical discount. My ‘16 was 130 with sails and electronics.

light air 4-8 knots we do very well boat for boat 

med to heavy air up wind stay home 

off the wind up to 15 we do excellent

off the wind high teens and up bigger planing boats with big rigs are gone

So you're saying it sucks in anything but 4-8?

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I think that depends alot on where you race, and what your fleet mix is.  The boat doesn't suck, but if you are trying to go upwind with boats that rate the same as you, yet carry a 155, and have 6 +/- feet of waterline on you, you are going to have a touch time.  They are powered up in med air upwind, and have waterline on you.  Off wind, there's not yet enough wind to plane, so you can't make it up on the downwind.  That's true for almost any sport boat in a mixed PHRF class.  

Doesn't mean in any way that the J/88 sucks...

Greyhound is in Annapolis, so also gets boxed in by both the bigger sym PHRF guys as well as the bigger planning boats, who can plane faster that him once the wind is up.

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On 1/16/2020 at 1:30 PM, marcus brutus said:

For between 1/3 to 1/4 of the the purchase price a J/92 with the class legal 155% LP genoa and ~90m^2 a-sail will crush the J/88 boat on boat.

This was my experience in the local ocean races out of San Francisco, which were often sailed in light air.  I owned my J/92 for 16 years.  The J/88 is a fine boat but their typical rating is tough = 81 here, vs. 105 for my J/92.

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That’s what I was afraid of. As hard as I try I can’t seem to find a better DH boat than what we already have. At least not under $250k.

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On 1/19/2020 at 12:43 AM, Crash said:

I think that depends alot on where you race, and what your fleet mix is.  The boat doesn't suck, but if you are trying to go upwind with boats that rate the same as you, yet carry a 155, and have 6 +/- feet of waterline on you, you are going to have a touch time.  They are powered up in med air upwind, and have waterline on you.  Off wind, there's not yet enough wind to plane, so you can't make it up on the downwind.  That's true for almost any sport boat in a mixed PHRF class.  

Doesn't mean in any way that the J/88 sucks...

Greyhound is in Annapolis, so also gets boxed in by both the bigger sym PHRF guys as well as the bigger planning boats, who can plane faster that him once the wind is up.

J-92 did well in the Ft Lauderdale to key west race this weekend. 88’s are too small for SORC I think they have a 30’ minimum.

the 92 was sticking with a 38DP Baltic for 160 miles.

 

1.sm_none_5.png  USA 14Thin ManJ 92Todd Aven11.

02.sm_none_5.png  USA 52386EclipseSabre 386Marc Berkowitz22.03.Doyle Sailmakers  USA 402RaptorJ 105Frank Conway33.04.sm_none_5.png  USA 81NevermoreJ 88Ken & Drew Hall44.05.sm_none_5.png  USA 234ArgoCatalina 400Boris Keselman55.06.sm_none_5.png  USA 34AlbóndigasJ 88Justin Scagnelli66.07.sm_none_5.png  USA 69329Renegade YCCSoverel 33Midshipman Tom Simon77.08.sm_none_5.png  680SynergyJ 105Henrik Pedersen88.09.sm_none_5.png  USA 46831UdachaTripp 33Vladimir Koulik99.010.sm_none_5.png  USA 340Big E.Z.J 105Eric Bicknese 1010.011.sm_none_5.png  USA 222EagleX-332Ernie Bivona 1111.012.sm_none_5.png  USA 87354ConcordiaEricson 381Johan Bengtsson 1212.013.sm_none_5.png  USA 26SuspectJ 92Mike 

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Baltic 38 DP is an production IOR One Tonner, and rates around 96.  J/92 rates around 105 give or take.  If there was a bunch of reaching, where the 92 could fly an asym, and the Baltic was reaching with a genny, then I could easily see how the 92 could stick to it.  

Had it been an upwind bash into 20 knots winds and 6 foot seas, the 38 would likely crush the 92.  

That said, I think the 92 would be a great DH boat....

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On 1/27/2020 at 5:00 AM, Crash said:

That said, I think the 92 would be a great DH boat....

yes she is indeed !

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