ricwoz

What defines a true circumnavigation?

Recommended Posts

A friend is flying from San Francisco to Delhi, India and then home via Newark.   He said "I'm circumnavigating, kinda".    And so we talked about that.  

Circumnavigating is a big deal to a lot of sailors, and I know that there is a difference between using the short cuts of Panama Canal and Suez Canal and going via Cape of Good Hope and Cape Horn.   

Assuming you went with the two canals route, you aren't going the distance of a great circle, so it seems less than a full circumnavigation.    If you sailed all the way around Antarctica you have circumnavigated Antarctica, and are a bad-ass, but you really haven't circumnavigated the world.  

So what are the easy to state rules that make for a true circumnavigation?   What are the rules for people seeking to break records in this category, and who maintains them? 

I read the Wikipedia article, and it's not that great.  In particular they show a route that includes two pairs of atnipodes?   Why two pairs?  Would not passing through a single pair of antipodes (while continuously moving in one general direction like East to West, be enough to ensure a full great circle length and legit circumnavigation? 

Are there even simpler to understand rules (like crossing and re-crossing the equator while starting and ending in the same location) that people commonly use that I am unaware of? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3 different ocean crossings combined with 2 equator crossings , returning to the start point in the opposite direction from which you left .

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s an arbitrary human endeavor and the definition only exists to ensure records are apples to apples. 
 

No records people who get caught up defining or working against the definition by arguing this and that are missing the point. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Mid said:

3 different ocean crossings combined with 2 equator crossings , returning to the start point in the opposite direction from which you left .

Soundes to easey...... thissa trick guestione?                                           :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If some official record is sought, then yes there would be a rule. I think if some Southern sailor sails around the southern oceans without crossing the equator they would get no argument from me about having completed a circumnavigation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Depends but this is one definition for bragging rights:

https://www.sailspeedrecords.com/the-courses-offshore

a. RTW - Round the World, eastbound and westbound 21600NM. 2 separate records.
To sail around the World, a vessel must start from and return to the same point, must cross all meridians of longitude and must cross the Equator. It may cross some but not all meridians more than once (i.e. two roundings of Antarctica do not count). The shortest orthodromic track of the vessel must be at least 21,600 nautical miles in length calculated based on a 'perfect sphere'. In calculating this distance, it is to be assumed that the vessel will sail around Antarctica in latitude 63 degrees south.
A vessel starting from any point where the direct orthodromic distance is too short shall pass one single island or other fixed point on a required side so as to lengthen his orthodromic track to the minimum distance.
No starting point will be permitted more south than 45 ° south.
1 degree of longitude at 63 degrees south will be taken as 27.24NM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crossing every meridian, the equator twice and covering at least 25,000 miles.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Miffy said:

It’s an arbitrary human endeavor and the definition only exists to ensure records are apples to apples. 
 

No records people who get caught up defining or working against the definition by arguing this and that are missing the point. 

Ok, I'll stipulate to all your points.   
Still, there is this question then: what's the (generally accepted, arbitrary, human created) definition of a sailing circumnavigation?    
Because: apples to apples records are a good thing.   And a key part of almost every sport. 

I still think there is a big difference between going around the full circumference of a sphere, and just going in a circular route that crosses all the lines of longitude  (like my go around Antarctica  example).   

To be clear: I wasn't asking this because I'm trying to find some way to break the record for sailing around the world with rules trickery. 

Really it came up with my friends trip.   Neither of us felt that his  San Francisco to Delhi to Newark to San Francisco trip *quite* made it as a true circumnavigation.   I think the answer is: because it didn't cross and then re-cross the equator it falls short, using @Mid 's useful definition.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't "a sailing route that begins and ends at the same locaiton, goes in one general direction, and passes through at least one pair of antipodes"  a sufficient definition. 

I believe it will always result in a course that crosses the equator twice, and is at least the length of the circumference of the earth. (Great circle length). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, ricwoz said:

and passes through at least one pair of antipodes

 

right - that is the key thing - begin and end at the same spot and pass through two antipodal points

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your true circumnavigation certainly includes simply circling Antartica.Or an island in New York Harbor. That is the definition. I think what you mean is a circumnavigation of the earth.

Passing thru a pair of antipodal points seems rather harsh by cruising standards, versus some record book rule. I'm siding with your friend. How many bars did he stop into?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, us7070 said:

right - that is the key thing - begin and end at the same spot and pass through two antipodal points

Pass through or at more extreme latitudes of antipodal points 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, LionessRacing said:

Pass through or at more extreme latitudes of antipodal points 

sure, but we are stating the _minimum_ that will meet the requirement - you can always do more...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, us7070 said:

sure, but we are stating the _minimum_ that will meet the requirement - you can always do more...

Ok, the Antipodal points on a practical minimum route may not be accessible, but presumable the fastest route would be something that started near equator in one Hemisphere (e.g. Recife) and going around a near antipodal (Guam) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

Your true circumnavigation certainly includes simply circling Antartica.Or an island in New York Harbor. That is the definition. I think what you mean is a circumnavigation of the earth.

 

 

Yes, that's what I meant.  Thank you for the clarification. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Blue Crab said:

I think it's round the capes.

Yes "The 5 Capes",  though many when saying they sailed around "Cape Leeuwin" and "South East Cape" Australia, they are using a special chart and pretending New Zealand is too small to matter.

IMG_20200108_212200.jpg.cc793c366fc0ff5de299b6d9268c4075.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Crossing every meridian, the equator twice and covering at least 25,000 miles.

So if you leave from Ecuador sailing west and come all the way around to the east side of the Panama canal, go through the canal and keep sailing due west all the way to the Philippines without re-crossing the equator it doesn't count as a circumnavigation?

Is re-crossing your original route critical?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:
9 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

I think it's round the capes.

Yes "The 5 Capes",  though many when saying they sailed around "Cape Leeuwin" and "South East Cape" Australia, they are using a special chart and pretending New Zealand is too small to matter.

For racing, sure.

I don't think it's unfair to state that a cruiser who has take the Panama canal and sailed all the way around the world back to where they started has circumnavigated.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like there's not a universally agreed upon definition, huh? What authoritative body's determination would we all agree to? We are now living in an age where some stone nitwit's biased and uninformed internet opinion get as much, sometimes more reach, traction and influence than widely respected, experienced, impartial scientists. I found the first couple of reads about the flat earthers amusing, now they're just annoying. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Yes "The 5 Capes",  though many when saying they sailed around "Cape Leeuwin" and "South East Cape" Australia, they are using a special chart and pretending New Zealand is too small to matter.

IMG_20200108_212200.jpg.cc793c366fc0ff5de299b6d9268c4075.jpg

51 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

For racing, sure.

I don't think it's unfair to state that a cruiser who has take the Panama canal and sailed all the way around the world back to where they started has circumnavigated.

While "The 5 Capes" or "5 Oceans" may be the route for some prominent yacht races such as the Vendée Globe, it has nothing to do with racing. 

The route you refer incorporating the Suez and or Panama canals only came into being as a consequence of marine steam engines. Or in other words "only sail" equals "no canals".

The "5 Capes" or "5 Oceans" is the traditional Clipper Ship "circumnavigation route" derived from the 17th century Brouwer Route.

Anything else to describe circumnavigation under sail is simply a modern day imposter or invention.

 

images - 2020-01-17T215616.975.jpeg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

IMG_20200108_212200.jpg.cc793c366fc0ff5de299b6d9268c4075.jpg

While "The 5 Capes" or "5 Oceans" may be the route for some prominent yacht races such as the Vendée Globe, it has nothing to do with racing. 

The route you refer incorporating the Suez and or Panama canals only came into being as a consequence of marine steam engines. Or in other words "only sail" equals "no canals".

The "5 Capes" or "5 Oceans" is the traditional Clipper Ship "circumnavigation route" derived from the 17th century Brouwer Route.

Anything else to describe circumnavigation under sail is simply a modern day imposter or invention.

 

images - 2020-01-17T215616.975.jpeg

This I know. But it's 2020 and we have engines and canals now, and have had for some time.

I don't think someone that has made multiple laps around the world on their own boat via the Panama canal has NOT circumnavigated. If I kept sailing west and re-crossed my route in Trinidad I'd consider myself a circumnavigator. At that point there'd only be a handful of people I'd argue the point with.

Opinions are like assholes however, we all have them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sugarbird said:

Sounds like there's not a universally agreed upon definition, huh?

nor does there need to be.., there can be a definition for cruisers.., a definition for racers.., a definition for geographers.., and so on.

we could also ask whether "sailing around the world" and "circumnavigation" are the same - to me the notion of sailing around the world could be a bit more loosely defined than circumnavigation.

the antipodal points requirement for a circumnavigation makes sense, because the antipodal points and the lines on the surface that join them define a great circle, and any plane that includes the two antipodal points passes through the center of the earth (represented as a sphere). Any route that includes two antipodal points, and begins and ends at the same point, will at a minimum, be as long as the circumference of the sphere. To "circumnavigate" it is reasonable, that one should sail a distance at least as long as the circumference.., and should sail around the center - or at least through points that lie on a plane through the center.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Imagine how insufferable and pedantic one has to be to police whether a professional mariner has circumnavigated. Also how insufferable a person has to be to go around “I’ve circumnavigated!” and get into arguments. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I only count the circumnavigations that start at the north or south pole, go to the opposite pole and return, with an optional layover to get hammered in McSorley's in lower Manhattan. 

Anything else is just pretend circumnavigation, if you ask me. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thru the canals is doubtless a circumnavigation. I know a dozen folks who've been around. It's a big deal but I grew up reading the super sailors who rounded the capes under sail armed with a sextant. That's what I'll always  think of when talking of "sailing round the world." 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Miffy said:

Imagine how insufferable and pedantic one has to be to police whether a professional mariner has circumnavigated. Also how insufferable a person has to be to go around “I’ve circumnavigated!” and get into arguments. 

well, the thread title asks for a definition of a "true" circumnavigation - indicating he is looking for something more than just a casual definition - and it turns out, there is a fairly precise definition.

i don't think that anyone here wants to get in an argument with someone who says they circumnavigated

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

Thru the canals is doubtless a circumnavigation. I know a dozen folks who've been around. It's a big deal but I grew up reading the super sailors who rounded the capes under sail armed with a sextant. That's what I'll always  think of when talking of "sailing round the world." 

Come on, you're old enough to have been a cabin boy on a clipper ship aren't you?  :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

IMG_20200108_212200.jpg.cc793c366fc0ff5de299b6d9268c4075.jpg

While "The 5 Capes" or "5 Oceans" may be the route for some prominent yacht races such as the Vendée Globe, it has nothing to do with racing. 

The route you refer incorporating the Suez and or Panama canals only came into being as a consequence of marine steam engines. Or in other words "only sail" equals "no canals".

The "5 Capes" or "5 Oceans" is the traditional Clipper Ship "circumnavigation route" derived from the 17th century Brouwer Route.

Anything else to describe circumnavigation under sail is simply a modern day imposter or invention.

 

images - 2020-01-17T215616.975.jpeg

Thanks for posting this.  I've never heard of any of this before.   The clipper ship thing is interesting, but it seems to leave a lot of places that were major trade centers off.   I guess you have wool in New Zealand, but I've always hear of places like India and China and even Indonesia as the main trading centers of Asia in that era, no offense to Aussie and Kiwis intended.  

Why were the Clipper ships furiously sailing far south to rocket around the bottom of the Earth in the Roaring 40s and then return to Western Europe for? 

Possibly a better question:  what are some good books on the Clipper ships?    I've always heard of them, but it's a hole in my knowledge of history I'd like to plug. 

What are the Five Oceans?    Atlantic, Pacific, Indian ... and... 

Thanks much, nice post with the two maps! 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, ricwoz said:

What are the Five Oceans?    Atlantic, Pacific, Indian ... and... 

Arctic, Southern (Antarctic)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, gullwinkle said:

I thought it was when you get your turtleneck cut off.

I thick thast a turtelneck-ectomey                :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, ricwoz said:

Thanks for posting this.  I've never heard of any of this before.   The clipper ship thing is interesting, but it seems to leave a lot of places that were major trade centers off.   I guess you have wool in New Zealand, but I've always hear of places like India and China and even Indonesia as the main trading centers of Asia in that era, no offense to Aussie and Kiwis intended.  

Why were the Clipper ships furiously sailing far south to rocket around the bottom of the Earth in the Roaring 40s and then return to Western Europe for? 

Possibly a better question:  what are some good books on the Clipper ships?    I've always heard of them, but it's a hole in my knowledge of history I'd like to plug. 

What are the Five Oceans?    Atlantic, Pacific, Indian ... and... 

Thanks much, nice post with the two maps! 

 

Allan Villiers and Eric Newby 'The last great grain race'. Can't remember Villiers' book title ATM and am away from my library. Could dig up some others too if I was home. 'Endless Sea' by a Norwegian I think.

I think there's the casual cruisers' definition of a circumnavigation which permits canal transits and the hard-core/racer definition which doesn't. As long as one is clear about that, I think it's OK to say you've done one by transiting the 2 canals. I have no plans to do either. Crossing the Antarctic Circle and the Equator will do me for this life.

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Anything else to describe circumnavigation under sail is simply a modern day imposter or invention.

I wear a golden earring, and can piss into a 50 knot wind. Do I qualify, or am I an imposter?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fiji Bitter said:

I wear a golden earring, and can piss into a 50 knot wind. Do I qualify, or am I an imposter?

 

Gold earing right ear ..well that's means you squat to take a piss. If you can do that into a Storm or Violent Storm if gusting over 55 and not fill your shoes up..well you are a Legend mate :-)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fiji Bitter said:

I can piss into a 50 knot wind. Do I qualify, or am I an imposter?

Anyone can do that - they just have to not mind getting it all over themselves.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, ricwoz said:

The clipper ship thing is interesting, but it seems to leave a lot of places that were major trade centers off.   I guess you have wool in New Zealand, but I've always hear of places like India and China and even Indonesia as the main trading centers of Asia in that era, no offense to Aussie and Kiwis intended...

Hence I was carefull to say "circumnavigation route." that incorporated Australia and NZ trade.

There generic term "Clipper Route" was that between Europe and the Far East with opium a cargo of choice, particularly American Clipper ships. Clipper Ships did go east to west around Cape Horn into the Pacific to reach Asia following the route first opened up by the Spanish and Portuguese in 17th century. However that was a pain in the arse as it often required a couple of goes to get around Cape Horn and was slower. However it did link up with Nth America west coast particularly the return trip via the Nth Pacific aka Asian goods and Chinese labour for Californian Gold Rush.

Hence my reference to the early 17th Century  Brouwer Route which pre dated colonisation (trade) of Aust/NZ and would halve the time from Europe to SE Asia utilising the Roaring Forties and lesser Great Circle longitude distance. However with no accurate way at that time to determine longitude, many crashed (predominantly Dutch East India Co vessels) into the West Aust coast as shown in map below. In fact one is the first credited European to land in Aust, Dirk Hartog I 1616. Though between you and me I believe a Portugese chap Torres (as in Torres Strait) beat him to it in 1607, but he was a tad lost and not a great cartographer.

The "circumnavigation" route incorporating Aust and NZ was an extension of that Brouwer Route and Asian trade you refer. 

15 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

The "5 Capes" or "5 Oceans" is the traditional Clipper Ship "circumnavigation route" derived from the 17th century Brouwer Route.

You answered your own question with the word "rocket". The trade game was and is today all about speed. Those that got their stuff to market first, got the higher price. As the book Fah refers: "The last great grain race."

9 hours ago, ricwoz said:

Why were the Clipper ships furiously sailing far south to rocket around the bottom of the Earth in the Roaring 40s and then return to Western Europe for? 

3 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Allan Villiers and Eric Newby 'The last great grain race '....

The introduction of the marine steam engine introduced the Suez and Panama Canals where traversing some sections was not even under steam, but by being towed by steam powered locomotives. Being towed by a train can't be included for a defining a circumnavigation route under sail surely?

With that the traditional circumnavigation route under sail died. What didn't die was that traditional 5 Capes/5 Oceans route to define "circumnavigation" under sail remains today as the measure and benchmark. 

However I won't be a pedantic prick and insist an auxiliary motor can't be used on a 5 Capes/5 Oceans circumnavigation route :-) Afterall "auxiliary steam powered" clipper style sailing vessels were used on that route for a while.

 

images - 2020-01-18T130844.462.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/17/2020 at 12:48 PM, Miffy said:

It’s an arbitrary human endeavor and the definition only exists to ensure records are apples to apples. 
 

No records people who get caught up defining or working against the definition by arguing this and that are missing the point. 

People like Bruce Hudson? If we slide this topic over into the Bruce thread, I'm sure we'll get the right answer in 10,000 words or more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Anyone can do that - they just have to not mind getting it all over themselves.

That's what makes the difference, ask Captain Cook!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Gold earing right ear ..well that's means you squat to take a piss. If you can do that into a Storm or Violent Storm if gusting over 55 and not fill your shoes up..well you are a Legend mate :-)

You make it way too complicated, Captain.

If you piss downwind the back eddy blows it straight up into your face. 

The trick is to use your beer belly! Face it at about 10° AWA and Bernoulli will lift it away from your boots and face. It is important to pull enough of your shrimp out of your foulies, otherwise it will blowback in the boundary layer and end up in your Musto middle layer.

Experience count and earings in both ears helps too.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Experience count and earings in both ears helps too.

Experience and detailed scientific reasoning behind it working. Well done.

Sometimes even with the combination of those two people can get it wrong. If you asked anyone who had climbed My Everest if the had climbed the world's tallest mountain and at its summit were closer to the moon than on any other they mountain, they would without blinking say yes to both.

They are in fact wrong for both. BTW the latter moon question & answer also explains why "longitude" and the Clipper Ship "circumnavigation" route are related if anyone wants to go thread drift nazi on my arse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Experience and detailed scientific reasoning behind it working. Well done.

Sometimes even with the combination of those two people can get it wrong. If you asked anyone who had climbed My Everest if the had climbed the world's tallest mountain and at its summit were closer to the moon than on any other they mountain, they would without blinking say yes to both.

They are in fact wrong for both. BTW the latter moon question & answer also explains why "longitude" and the Clipper Ship "circumnavigation" route are related if anyone wants to go thread drift nazi on my arse.

Do bits of mountain under the sea count? And mountains on the equator being closer to the moon?

Can't be bothered giving it more than 30 seconds of thought though, so - shrug.

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Do bits of mountain under the sea count? And mountains on the equator being closer to the moon?

Yes the bit that's under the sea is included. Yes less circumference (longitude seperation) the higher the latitude number. Well done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Circumnavigate [ sur-kuh m-nav-i-geyt ]

Verb (used with object), cir·cum·nav·i·gat·ed, cir·cum·nav·i·gat·ing - to sail or fly around; make the circuit by navigation: to circumnavigate the earth.

On that basis... Take yer pic.

 

CLIPPER

Untitled-1.thumb.jpg.c0cf0ea3c8c42041fed16fe378fc5546.jpg

OYSTER RALLY

oys.thumb.jpg.6105b7a181fdfc61aa8d6d8f549b5682.jpg

Though there are hot-spots....

vbzhas0fzhknemgxzgsa.thumb.png.0a990afbd1213515cc0722cba8f0c931.png

Or go a tad more more hardcore explorer and dial-in the NWP and/or a Cape Horn pass through... and then add in the correct arm tats…

full-rigged-vessel.jpg.b7569a30f89bfdf9857d38f6386ae515.jpg

Toodle-pip

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

I wear a golden earring, and can piss into a 50 knot wind. Do I qualify, or am I an imposter?

That depends, on the left you 'allegedly' went past Cape Horn. On the right you're a poofter.  YMMV :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/17/2020 at 7:12 AM, jack_sparrow said:

The "5 Capes" or "5 Oceans" is the traditional Clipper Ship "circumnavigation route" derived from the 17th century Brouwer Route.

Anything else to describe circumnavigation under sail is simply a modern day imposter or invention.

 

Magellan's route - the one he didn't finish- went through two antiodes, and the concept existed long before that..,of course, they didn't have canals, so you are right about that being a requirement as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Laser1 said:

That depends, on the left you 'allegedly' went past Cape Horn. On the right you're a poofter.  YMMV :lol:

I think that you have to sail past Cape Horn

  • on a square-rigger and
  • carrying cargo.

Not so many opportunities to do that any more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a mistake to use the term 'clipper ship' to refer to any square rigger used for trade. Real clippers were slim greyhounds designed for speed, to carry new crop tea from China to Britain in the minimum time possible. The tea from the first clipper sold for a very high price. The last square riggers were completely different ships. They carried large amounts of low-value cargo like guano. For these cargoes speed was irrelevant. The driving force was cost. for a few decades these ships were cheaper to operate than steam ships.

As to the definition of a circumnavigation, it does not make much sense to talk about the routes used by the clippers or other ships. The routes they followed were commercially driven. Really the same thing is true for the various modern rtw races. They start and finish (and follow a route) driven by commercial considerations and the need to stop or not stop along the way.

Our trip was from the Caribbean by Panama, Oz, South Africa and back to the Caribbean. We crossed our path at Grenada. In total we did 34,000 nm. We thought (briefly) about heading to Patagonia and Antarctica after finishing the rtw. That would have added Cape Horn I guess. (Went to Antarctica on a very nice cruise ship. The food was better and we could leave the driving to someone else.) Seemed like a circumnavigation to me, although I have no earring at all.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, us7070 said:

 

Magellan's route - the one he didn't finish- went through two antiodes, and the concept existed long before that..,of course, they didn't have canals, so you are right about that being a requirement as well.

Don't worry he wasn't forgotten. 

10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

...Clipper Ships did go east to west around Cape Horn into the Pacific to reach Asia following the route first opened up by the Spanish and Portuguese in 17th century.....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/16/2020 at 10:42 PM, El Boracho said:

Your true circumnavigation certainly includes simply circling Antarctica.Or an island in New York Harbor. That is the definition. I think what you mean is a circumnavigation of the earth.

Passing thru a pair of antipodal points seems rather harsh by cruising standards, versus some record book rule. I'm siding with your friend. How many bars did he stop into?

 

You mean HWSNBN's planned circumnavigation of Vancouver Island didn't qualify?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

As to the definition of a circumnavigation, it does not make much sense to talk about the routes used by the clippers or other ships. The routes they followed were commercially driven. Really the same thing is true for the various modern rtw races.

So a circumnavigation route definition can't be "commercially" or "race" course derived (NB. The Speed Council has circumnavigation course parameters for record making).

Therefore that only leaves "recreational". However recreational circumnavigators don't readily leave a trail, some take years even decades, stop and start etc so therefore don't really leave a basis to found a definition upon other than something atrbitary. However there maybe one exception.

There has been well over 200 single handed circumnavigations since the world's first, the 1895-98 circumnavigation by Joshua Slocum on Spray according to sources like  RKJ List of Solo Circumnavigators.  Majority of their courses incorporate 3 Capes, many 5 Capes and 4 or 5 Oceans and majority of at least one equator crossing.

Those numbers are all recreational (but incl of racing) however the course characteristics don't change. Some like Jon Sanders at the age of 81 is currently going around today for his 11th time. 

So if a circumnavigation definition is limited to a recreational foundation then the minimum course average for the "entire history" of mans solo circumnavigations being a minimum of 3 Capes, crossing all meridians of longitude and one equator crossing appears to have a very solid basis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, aloha27 said:

You mean HWSNBN's planned circumnavigation of Vancouver Island didn't qualify?

Next year...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

Well worth reading

His experiences with tiller pilots was/is always pretty interesting on how long they would last.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/17/2020 at 7:12 AM, jack_sparrow said:

 

The "5 Capes" or "5 Oceans" is the traditional Clipper Ship "circumnavigation route" derived from the 17th century Brouwer Route.

Anything else to describe circumnavigation under sail is simply a modern day imposter or invention.

 

images - 2020-01-17T215616.975.jpeg

That route looks an uninteresting way around the globe to me. Crossing virtually every longitude in the Southern Ocean may be a fast route around the marble but you miss out so much of what makes a circumnavigation really interesting. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Laser1 said:

That depends, on the left you 'allegedly' went past Cape Horn. On the right you're a poofter.  YMMV :lol:

Indeed MMV's, just ask your wife! B)

Traditionally, a sailor who had rounded the Horn was entitled to wear a gold loop earring in the ear which had faced the Horn, so the right ear for an East-West passage. Never been told one had to be homo as well, although abuse of the cabin boy may have been common during the long bash to windward.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For a cruiser to have bragging rights at the bar, I would say : sailed from his homeport, crossed all meridians and the equator at least once and came back home. Some will disagree, but I am not sure that I would include these people who sail their boat around the world while flying back home and everywhere regularly as obviously their main mean of transport in term of distance becomes the plane.

For a race or a record, @Mid definition is the correct one AFAIK.

For cyclists the "round the world trip" definition is even harder as some parts of it can't be cycled, I think that they say cross all meridians + the equator and cycled xxx kilometres (forgot the distance).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

For a cruiser to have bragging rights at the bar, I would say : sailed from his homeport, crossed all meridians and the equator at least once and came back home.

Crossing the equator only once is disqualifying, no? Means one started and ended in different home hemispheres? Or shipped the boat across? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

So a circumnavigation route definition can't be "commercially" or "race" course derived (NB. The Speed Council has circumnavigation course parameters for record making).

Therefore that only leaves "recreational". However recreational circumnavigators don't readily leave a trail, some take years even decades, stop and start etc so therefore don't really leave a basis to found a definition upon other than something atrbitary. However there maybe one exception.

There has been well over 200 single handed circumnavigations since the world's first, the 1895-98 circumnavigation by Joshua Slocum on Spray according to sources like  RKJ List of Solo Circumnavigators.  Majority of their courses incorporate 3 Capes, many 5 Capes and 4 or 5 Oceans and majority of at least one equator crossing.

Those numbers are all recreational (but incl of racing) however the course characteristics don't change. Some like Jon Sanders at the age of 81 is currently going around today for his 11th time. 

So if a circumnavigation definition is limited to a recreational foundation then the minimum course average for the "entire history" of mans solo circumnavigations being a minimum of 3 Capes, crossing all meridians of longitude and one equator crossing appears to have a very solid basis.

Jack, read what I posted before. I did not say that a race or clipper ship route would not be a circumnavigation, rather that the routes either might follow would not define a circumnavigation. I doubt that there would/could be any complete agreement on what a circumnavigation is. the key points/questions to be answered:

  • Outboud and inbound paths must cross - everyone would agree 
  • Course must cross every meridian - again complete agreement
  • Can use canals or not? - this is the big sticking point
  • Must cross the equator twice - not very clear really; what if someone crosses the equator and an hour later crosses back?; see next point
  • Must reach antipodean point - does this mean that if you left from 50°N 0° you must go to 50°S 180° (or south of this point) or is it good enough to get at least to 50°S at some point at 179°E or even 70°W say
  • Is the circumnavigation measured from the port you leave from or from the point where your paths cross?
  • Must go a certain distance at least equal to the circumference of the Earth (Mr Google says 21 639 nm)? This one seems pointless if other considerations are met
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

Crossing the equator only once is disqualifying, no? Means one started and ended in different home hemispheres? Or shipped the boat across? 

Yes but I said at least once and was too lazy to separate the equator from my meridians in my sentence!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/17/2020 at 1:12 PM, jack_sparrow said:

IMG_20200108_212200.jpg.cc793c366fc0ff5de299b6d9268c4075.jpg

 

 

 

Whoever drew this map was either having fun or isn't a top geographer!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This all reminds me of the debate down in Puerto Williams about what constitutes a 'cape horn rounding'. Most 'casuals' count the 'daysail to the horn' as a rounding, while the 'serious' crowd do not count that.  The most strenuous historical definition seemed to be 'non-stop, east to west, 50s to 50s, carrying cargo'. . . . . .

but really why care about what others want to claim when there is no prize, just personal experience/challenge/achievement.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, estarzinger said:

'non-stop, east to west

 

In the book Rounding the Horn, written by Dallas Murphy, I am pretty sure he says that the east to west, i.e. upwind.., rounding was the only one that "counted", back in the day...

according to Murphy, they didn't consider the downwind rounding to be a real rounding and didn't count it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Whoever drew this map was either having fun or isn't a top geographer!

 

But he was correct on this map.

 

NZ Top Center.JPG

NZ top dead centre.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, us7070 said:

 

In the book Rounding the Horn, written by Dallas Murphy, I am pretty sure he says that the east to west, i.e. upwind.., rounding was the only one that "counted", back in the day...

according to Murphy, they didn't consider the downwind rounding to be a real rounding and didn't count it.

Not only back in the days. I bet those who did the east to west rounding would still say so, if only to piss off all those uppity Whitbread and Volvo sailors!

Downwind in a proper yacht is just too easy, upwind not so much. Ask @littlechay

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SloopJohnB said:

But he was correct on this map.

how about this one - an antipodal map

it's surprising how little of the land surface has land at the antipode

Antipodes_LAEA.png

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The SIs for the Jules Verne trophy are an example of this definition. It really is that simple

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, estarzinger said:

.....but really why care about what others want to claim when there is no prize, just personal experience/challenge/achievement.

That therein lies the problem.

There actually is a "prize" and the OP's question has sought information on the "rules" for securing that prize.

That prize is being inducted into the "Circumnavigation Club." It is open to all but an exclusive club where where those that are inducted are judged to have attained a standard involving skill and endurance as governed by the route of their sailing vessel. Personal achievement and experience aside, that is what humans do, they rank each others achievements.

The doors to this exclusive club were first opened in the early 16th century with the founding inductee being Ferdinand Magellan. From that very moment and like all clubs, rules and membership categories based on those measures of skill and endurance started to evolve as membership rises.

By the way to reference the obvious core circumnavigation Great Circle rule, Magellan's 90 ft long Victoria passed at least two "antipodes" (that automaticaly creates the minimum of 2 equator crossings and Equator/Long Meridian distance of 40,075 km) and where after Magellan died in SE Asia, his 2IC del Cano brought the ship back to her starting port. Sir Francis Drake circumnavigated the right way as well as Cavedish, Van Noort, Dampier, Cowley, Woodes Rogers, Cliperton, Schouten, Anson, Cook, Krusenstern and many more.

IMG_20200120_112722.jpg.340e5dca2971601032840b39810100bb.jpg

The Dutch East India ships opening trading with SE Asia in early 17th century were the first to adopt the traditional east west route as opposed to the Spanish and Portuguese following Magellan westward into the Pacific approach. Brouwer refining this route further utilising the roaring forties and shorter Great Circle distance of higher latitudes. They were the first Europeans to discover Australia by not turning left fast enough. A route then adopted and extended by the 19th century Clipper Ships to to circumnavigate at every voyage. 

893784193_images-2020-01-18T130844_462.jpeg.72b158e058c4944b5cb729d48d40ad15.jpeg

As you can see this circumnavigation caper under the two "antipodes" circumnavigation rule, that Magellan had no understanding of, took off and revealing the far corners of the earth for the first time to Europeans.

1618926990_GreatCircle(1).gif.5157c57682d3897cbd28daff108b3453.gif

The first club rule change was actually caused by the founding member's own infraction and that is the starting skipper has to finish and not die mid voyage. None the less Magellan's name still sits at top of the club's honour board. As an aside this start/finish rule was also adopted by the Everest Club, where Hillary & Tensing were inducted, not Mallory who preceeded them, but who is still up there somewhere and therefore no knowledge if he was successful or not.

In fact "inaugural" category member infractions and subsequent rule changes are a feature of this exclusive club. For instance the 1895-98 voyage by Joshua Slocum on "Spray" that created the "single handed" membership category. He set sail from Boston, Massachusetts and three years later returned to Newport, Rhode Island. The problem being unfortunately his finish fell short of the start, albeit by less than 100 mile. This brought about the club's start finish/rule, however like Magellan his name remains on the honour board. The club sensibly cuts inaugural inductees a bit of slack it appears.

2105494718_images-2020-01-19T120748_057.jpeg.b4eeca6737517c646003373028fdeca2.jpegwp286a584c_05_06.jpg.3f6d6e97034e62cd3825c94d4c26db01.jpg

Credits - Shipping Wonders of the World & Joshua Slocum International Society

Anyway as I said from Magellans induction  club rules and categories changed on account of the number of vessels circumnavigating increasing. 

In the 1800s shippers discovered that the better profit could be made by fast passages. First, the American-built wooden ships as Lightning and James Baines took emigrants to Australia and goods back. Later, the British built their own clippers like Thermopylae and Cutty Sark. Those could sail to Australia in 60 days, loaded ship and went back in 70 days, rounding the globe in 160 days. The circumnavigation speeds then started to be closely recorded and all around the Great Circle rule of two "antipodes" applying.

2104602963_images-2020-01-17T215616_975.jpeg.a8a88335e0d8d3c56e16ff150338fe6c.jpeg

The most significant circumnavigation club rule change was in 1850 following the first successful circumnavigation by the small private British schooner the "Nancy Dawson." Thereafter club membership was restricted to "sailing yachts" only. This change was made to preserve the "exclusivity" of the club as a beacon for skill and endurance as opposed to those on large commercial sailing vessels circumnavigating under somewhat easier circumstances and with greater resources at hand.

Things were going along swimmingly at the club until the latter half of the 19th century when the Suez and Panama Canals were opened to cater for that increase in commercial traffic and the advent of the marine steam engine, reduction of voyage times and negating the need for routes being weather dependant. This created an uproar at the club as again it's "exclusivity" was threatened by those seeking to join without having travelled around the Horn or possibly even none of the Great Capes.

This canal transit issue came to a head at the club in 1895 when Joshua Slocum headed off to undertake the first "solo circumnavigation" nearly four centuries after the club's founding father Magellan but in the now traditional west to east direction, BUT also via the Suez Canal!!! This put the club's member nomination committee into a spin.

However upon leaving Boston and getting to Gibraltar, British Naval authorities warned Slocum of Moorish pirate activity in the Mediterranean. He then turned around and headed south west to round Sth America via the Straits of Magellan and follow the wake of the club's founder Magellan himself. This caused everyone at the club to breath a sigh of relief. Unfortunately that relief would not last long, in fact only 25 years.

It would take 40 years for Slocum's single handed circumnavigations feat inclusive of rounding Sth America to be repeated by Louis Bernicot in 1936 - 38. In fact it wasn't until Vito Dumas in 1947 for Sth America to be rounded solo via Cape Horn, not via the Straits of Magellan. However the club's problem of 25 years prior resurfaced. Starting with Harry Pidgeon in 1923 - 25 on his "Islander," four solo circumnavigations occured before Bernicots repeat of Slocum's route in 1939, BUT by them using the Panama and Suez Canals. The last one in 1937 which was Harry again and claiming an inaugural award of first "solo dual circumnavigation". Now this obviously was all quite apart from crewed circumnavigations occuring in a similar manner and in far greater number. Some inclusive of at least two Great Cape roundings and those taking a man-made shortcut and only securing one.

The club then made a fateful decision. It would still induct those that used man-made "canal transit assistance" but they would be recognised under a lower membership category.

However there were many in the club of the view that "canal transit assistance" did not qualify under the club's Constitution of "exclusivity" regarding measuring skill and endurance by the nature of the route employed. In fact their novel and compelling argument was that of "perception" amoungst the wider public. That being that a circumnavigation route surely involved extreme "remoteness' or traversing the "middle of nowhere." Being pulled by a steam locomotive through a ditch full of water they said would hardly measure up in the public's eyes.

Now to assist their argument there is actually a place called the "middle of nowhere" and it even has a scientific name, the "oceanic pole of inaccessibility,” or, more simply put, the point in the ocean that is "farthest away from land."

This place is more commonly called "Point Nemo," located in the South Pacific and only traversed by those circumnavigating via Cape Horn. The closest land masses being around 1,600 mile distant, Point Nemo may one day be a "real" Point as it is where the world's space junk is directed. If that shit builds up to the surface it will then sort of fuck up this "middle of nowhere" definition.

ES-AD-SATELLITE-LOCATOR-MAP-V3.thumb.jpg.8d0925caa5668cdbcf2daff3e9cd1915.jpg

Anyway "Canalies" as they became affectionately known were allowed to be inducted, albeit under the club's lowest member category to keep those members  opposed on side. Arguably in light of what occured next, their concerns maybe should have been given more weight. By the way the club are not alone in this regard. For instance the "climber assisted" line-up every summer at the foot of Mount Everest must make Mallory roll in his grave, if he had one.

Anyway Club membership soared particularly after the austerity of WWII, the availability of small marine auxiliary engines, production boat building, electronic navigation aids and the sport of sailing no longer being the sole domain of the upper classes. Incorporating the Panama Canal in the route was the norm on account of the expanding recreational boating populations of Europe and the US seaboard being upwind of the Panama Canal and the more traditional east to west weather routing linking the cruising grounds of the Caribbean and Sth Pacific either side of the canal. A far more pleasurable and direct route than venturing down to 40 South.

The next significant club rule change about circumnavigation routes was the advent of record breaking. Sir Francis Chichester was the first sportsman sailor in 1967 to circumnavigate for a speed breaking record on his 57' Gipsy Moth IV. He was inspired by Australian bound clippers, wanting to duplicate their route and break their record time. He also put beyond doubt a true measured circumnavigation as a route around two "antipodes". Actually his record setting solo sailing one stop route passed "two pairs" of "antipodes". If somebody else wanted to break his record, they now had to follow an already set rule.

Solo nonstop circumnavigation then took off. The 1968 a Golden Globe trophy the first for the first and the fastest nonstop solo circumnavigation. However the rules did not required "antipodes" but became prescriptive, setting the race course around the Cape of Good Hope, Cape  Leeuwin and Cape Horn and with a more flexible start and finish in any port north of  40 degree North, which then "automatically" set the the antipodes route. The first crewed race using a set start, course, stopovers and set finish was the Whitbread Race in 1974.

As a guide to how solo racing/record breaking played a part in the publics perception today of what constitutes a true circumnavigation and which happens to be based on southern Clipper Ship routes is the following. In the 70 years between Slocum and Chichester there were approximately two dozen solo circumnavigations. Of those nearly three quarters were "canal transit" assisted. Today the majority of solo circumnavigations are of the Clipper Ship/ 5 Great Capes/5 Oceans variety. In the 50 years following Chichester that number has increased more than 10 fold.

This has led to today where circumnavigation club membership categories include crewed, solo, short handed, with and without stopovers, multiple circumnavigations plus various racing and record chasing mono and multihull categories etc. Then overlying those, routes involving canal transits and a less demanding passage to circumnavigations based on the number of Great Capes rounded to closer define more demanding passages in higher latitudes.

The membership category of "Canal Transit Assisted" enjoys the largest and an immeasurable number of inductees, "Solo Great Capes" the smallest numbering around 250. In fact more people have been put into space than solo circumnavigated.

So to conclude belonging to the Circumnavigation Club is really no different to being a member of a golf club. There are  some that can play golf and on average courses and some that play extraordinary golf usually on extraordinary courses. The latter limited in number you see on TV and read about, the former you don't. However both are still golf and hopefully a satisfying experience.

So to the OP's question of what is the "rule" about circumnavigation routes?  Well like  the golf analogy the return question is, how many holes, 9 or 18 and is there a handicap advantage employed? 

PS. If any you pricks want to put this post up for the daily Bruce Hudson Award, forget it, I've already claimed it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, SloopJohnB said:

But he was correct on this map.

 

NZ Top Center.JPG

NZ top dead centre.

Only "dead centre" for 365.25 nonconsecutive seconds every year :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Couple of thoughts come to mind. I have always wondered why Magellan is credited with the first circumnavigation since he only went from Spain to Patagonia. Shouldn't the credit go to his #2 and the small number of his crew who survived the journey. Second thought, and to mind this is the picking of nits, the latitude of London is about 51.5°N. I would imagine that many clipper voyages did not reach 51.5 ° S, i.e. they did their Southern Ocean passage in the forties. Of course, they may have crossed paths somewhere south of London making the point moot.

Never heard of the Circumnavigation Club. Could be like Groucho Marx. Would I want to be member of a club that would have me as a member? As to the number of canalies, the number is not really that large. When we did it no one was going via the Red Sea. It was the year after the Quest incident. The number of boats in South Africa who had come from Panama and were going to North/South America or Europe to complete a circumnavigation or were coming from Australia/NZ on the way to Panama was in the range of 75 to 100. A really good way to find out exactly how many boats there are is to ask at the Royal Cape YC and the Victoria and Albert Waterfront in Cape Town. The South Africans require that you clear the country in CT in one or other place. 

We met only one boat going west. He was headed to Perth which was his home port. He had come from the US.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Couple of thoughts come to mind. I have always wondered why Magellan is credited with the first circumnavigation since he only went from Spain to Patagonia. Shouldn't the credit go to his #2 and the small number of his crew who survived the journey.....

..Never heard of the Circumnavigation Club. Could be like Groucho Marx. Would I want to be member of a club that would have me as a member?...

Phillipines not Patagonia? Mate that Magellan credit thing where he didn't make it back to where he started by dropping dead you will have to take up with the Club President from that time. However as he died around 1550 that could be a challenge. Also maybe fruitless bloody lot of history books to rewrite. Anyway most publications also credit el Carno the guy who drove her home ie even marked in above map.

Like Monaco Yacht Club, Circumnavigation Club is very exclusive, they don't even list membership fee because if you need to ask you can't afford it. Though in the Circumnavigation Clubs case at least your nomination can't be black-balled by Prince Albert.

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

The first club rule change was actually caused by the founding member's own infraction and that is the starting skipper has to finish and not die mid voyage. None the less Magellan's name still sits at top of the club's honour board.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Second thought, and to mind this is the picking of nits, the latitude of London is about 51.5°N. I would imagine that many clipper voyages did not reach 51.5 ° S, i.e. they did their Southern Ocean passage in the forties. Of course, they may have crossed paths somewhere south of London making the point moot.

Cossover. The St Helena High pushes them west onto Arg/Brazil coast both inbound and outbound.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Phillipines not Patagonia? Mate that Magellan credit thing where he didn't make it back to where he started by dropping dead you will have to take up with the Club President from that time. However as he died around 1550 that could be a challenge. Also maybe fruitless bloody lot of history books to rewrite. Anyway most publications also credit el Carno the guy who drove her home ie even marked in above map.

Like Monaco Yacht Club, Circumnavigation Club is very exclusive, they don't even list membership fee because if you need to ask you can't afford it. Though in the Circumnavigation Clubs case at least your nomination can't be black-balled by Prince Albert.

 

You are right, poison arrow in the Philippines. I wonder if that hurts. Actually I had never heard of el Carno until just a few years ago. magellan must have had a very effective PR person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
 
1
 Advanced issue found
 
 
1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

There actually is a "prize" a . . . . That prize is being inducted into the "Circumnavigation Club." 

Yea, NO . . . . you get home after one and no-one has any idea what you have done/accomplished. There's no prize here except an internal feeling of accomplishment.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, estarzinger said:
1

 Advanced issue found

 

Is this a trick question?

If you get home from a circumnavigation and no-one has any idea of what you have achieved, then you can only be talking about orphans and or very secretive types.

Therefore my comment here about the human condition of recognising achievement of others over and above personal achievement can't possibly apply can it? Personal achievement is the only prize on offer.

3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Personal achievement and experience aside, that is what humans do, they rank each others achievements.

As for the "prize" being induction into a fictious club that "only exists in the mind," then an internal feeling of accomplishment is again the only prize on offer surely, if no-one else gives a toss and or isn't aware of that accomplishment? Again that aspect and personal achievement is covered off here in my golf analogy

3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

So to conclude belonging to the Circumnavigation  Club is really no different to being a member of a golf   club........    

.....The latter limited in number you see on TV and read about, the former you don't. However both are still golf and hopefully a satisfying experience.

Zinger if you are going to dispel posts with an erudite NO, then doing so without misrepresentation or ignoring what has been said is a reasonable expectation don't you think???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

.... I had never heard of el Carno until just a few years ago. magellan must have had a very effective PR person.

You are dead right it was all PR (national identity) from the grave.

Magellan (Portugese) and Elcano (Basque/Spain) where Magellan was the one who started it but largely funded by King of Spain. However combination of Portugal wanted to recognise a Portuguese explorer, and Spain had fears of Basque nationalism through Elcano connection so let Portugal/Magellan take the lead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites