Roleur

Dehler 30 OD price?

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Anyone seen an all-in price in the US?  

Anyone aware of any headed to US already?

Fair to expect this will be well under the J/99 price?  

Yes, I emailed the local dealer, but it is a Sunday and they are closed.

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No idea  about the rest but in Europe the Dehler is slightly cheaper than the J99 as far as I know.

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I have been watching fair bit of the videos on the boat, youtube.  In one of them they listed the price.   It was up there when you consider the extensive sail wardrobe this boat has.

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Boat fully equipped in Europe is about 210K euros.

Base price is 131K euros (VAT incl.) which is about 109K without VAT.

Not sure how much it will be to ship to the USA. 

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6 hours ago, Nubben said:

j3 flying with reef

Hanked-on with reef I would expect

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8 hours ago, Snowden said:

Hanked-on with reef I would expect

The review video has the j1 hanked on with a reef, and then an inner cutter-jib cableless, not sure if that one had a reef as well.

Elvström three-sail package ~17k€ around here, boat without electronics and sails but VAT paid in Sweden ~145k€.

 

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1 hour ago, Nubben said:

The review video has the j1 hanked on with a reef, and then an inner cutter-jib cableless, not sure if that one had a reef as well.

Staysail on a furler?

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7 hours ago, Snowden said:

I suspect there is a furler. With no inner forestay would be a pain to take down shorethanded if not.

yes. For anyone who knows shorthanded, when you put the J2 up (staysail), having a continuous furler is great as you can use the sail with a code 0 or even a spinnaker. Just much easier, faster and safer to deploy or roll the sail.

That boat is very neat. Really well thought out all around, at least for shorthanded.

 

See photodehler-30-one-design-photo-exterieur-2019-dehler-30-one-design_2179739644995794776_1980_0_0.thumb.jpg.4c50ab4fbfc34538f17fe5a23ff24a2b.jpg

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There is definitely one heading to the Chesapeake. The  single- and double-handed racing really seems to be catching on around here. CHESSS (Chespaeake Short-handed Sailing Society) has become a sanctioned class for CBYRA Highpoint and is sponsoring races. 

 

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I have been working with the local Dehler dealer in the SF Bay and have been quoted at about $250K with every box checked and the complete North Sails package. I also spoke to North Sails and they say that you can expect 2-3 years of use out of the 3Di Raw sails so you won't be dropping $30K every year on replacement sails. 

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19 minutes ago, solosailor said:

Wow, only $250k for a 30ft boat, what a deal.

Another DOA design in this world recession !

Does anyone intend to purchase a 30' sailboat for $250K soon ?

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3 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

Another DOA design in this world recession !

Does anyone intend to purchase a 30' sailboat for $250K soon ?

Some of the design choices seem perverse from an economic standpoint, particularly the folding propeller drive.

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4 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

Another DOA design in this world recession !

Does anyone intend to purchase a 30' sailboat for $250K soon ? 

It's not even a full pre-preg carbon boat... for that kind of money it should be.

Hull and deck:
sandwich PVC / fiberglass / polyester (vacuum infusion).

 

 

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6 hours ago, Irrational 14 said:

It's not even a full pre-preg carbon boat... for that kind of money it should be.

Hull and deck:
sandwich PVC / fiberglass / polyester (vacuum infusion).

 

 

Not to pick on you, but really? Do you really have any idea how much it should cost?  Some Rando said "with every box checked and the full North Package."  Which, based on my earlier J/109 based experience has to be at least 50k worth of sails, instruments, etc...

 

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whats better? German Mercedes G Wagon or cheap GM Buick Truck pickup? Your choice :D

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1 hour ago, troll99 said:

whats better? German Mercedes G Wagon or cheap GM Buick Truck pickup? Your choice :D

Depends where you drive and how insecure you feel.

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10 hours ago, Crash said:

Not to pick on you, but really? Do you really have any idea how much it should cost?  Some Rando said "with every box checked and the full North Package."  Which, based on my earlier J/109 based experience has to be at least 50k worth of sails, instruments, etc...

 

Even with the 50K excluded, 200k for a glass 30' boat? Come on. At least the Figaro 3 has foil assist to warrant it's price tag.

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1 hour ago, Irrational 14 said:

Even with the 50K excluded, 200k for a glass 30' boat? Come on. At least the Figaro 3 has foil assist to warrant it's price tag.

well if you use the price in jsam's post.., the base boat without VAT is just under $120K US at today's exchange.

we don't know  what factory options are needed, or included in Rando's $250K quote, but you could probably ship it to the east coast US for under $15K

 

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5 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

Depends where you drive and how insecure you feel.

its where G loves most

Mercedes-Benz-G-Class.jpg

Image result for g wagon jump
 

you dont feel insecure with 6x6 :D Zombie apocalypse proof

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I don't think Buick even makes a pickup truck......

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On 3/25/2020 at 1:50 PM, us7070 said:

well if you use the price in jsam's post.., the base boat without VAT is just under $120K US at today's exchange.

we don't know  what factory options are needed, or included in Rando's $250K quote, but you could probably ship it to the east coast US for under $15K

 

I had priced up a JPK 1030 and came to about $200k landed here (US) with sails and electronics.  I think this boat will be similar.  If you go with some really elaborate sails and electronics you can add to that but I think you can have a competitive boat for that.  

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On 4/1/2020 at 2:15 PM, Bump-n-Grind said:

I don't think Buick even makes a pickup truck......

Troll isn’t very smart. On top of that, the only two people I know who bought G-Wagons have realized they’re garbage. Basically tarted up Jeeps for idiots who want high maintenance costs. 
 

You’d be better off spending your money on something properly silly like a Dehler 30!

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More details. It's $33K for the North Sails full getup. That's the A2, A5, Code 0, J2, Staysail, & Main. The base price isn't too horrific at about $180k (typical "California discount" applied), but the outriggers are extra, the navigation system is extra, autopilot is extra, anchor and chain is extra, and there's an additional $25K for "commissioning". I was hoping it would be a little more competitive, but you do end up with a very competent ocean racer at the end of the day. Oh, and it does look good. I'm also hopeful that the polar diagrams that have been posted are conservative. When you factor in the carbon rig, water ballast, and "stealth drive" you should have something fun to drive, at the very least. I would really like to drive one. Once this whole SARS-CoV-2 thing blows over I'm going to try out https://www.offshoreracingcharter.gr/  to get some seat time. It may be a while before I can provide any additional feedback though, because I'm pretty sure 2020 has been cancelled.

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4 hours ago, troll99 said:

lol something properly silly? Thats both dehler and wagon :rolleyes:

I’m saving up for that Buick pickup. 

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6 hours ago, Monkey said:

I’m saving up for that Buick pickup. 

keep saving

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTsIHtIgP-uVj7uzBwjXaj

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7 hours ago, Some.Rando said:

It's $33K for the North Sails full getup. That's the A2, A5, Code 0, J2, Staysail, & Main.

That sounds... quite good value? Would need trysail and storm jib on top of that .

Is that a reefing J2 or is the idea that the staysail doubles as your H/W jib?

I would be tempted to acquire an A1 and an A4, choosing one for each race and taking the four kites rating hit (0.001 IRC TCC at that size IIRC).

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It's a reefing J2. It's a one design boat, so it would be unnecessary to add additional spinnakers to your sail inventory. 

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37 minutes ago, Some.Rando said:

It's a reefing J2. It's a one design boat, so it would be unnecessary to add additional spinnakers to your sail inventory. 

Well, its not an OD boat until there are enough boats around in enough areas to create fleets and have their own starts.  Successfully launching a One Design Class takes more (a lot more) then just naming the boat "OD."  Many have tried, not nearly as many, esp recently have succeeded.  I hope this one does.

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1 hour ago, Some.Rando said:

It's a reefing J2. It's a one design boat, so it would be unnecessary to add additional spinnakers to your sail inventory. 

Depends where you are and what the fleets are like, I suppose.

In the UK it would seem perverse to race offshore OD against (?) 5 other boats when you can race against hundreds under IRC in the RORC and JOG seasons...

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36 minutes ago, Crash said:

Many have tried, not nearly as many, esp recently have succeeded.  I hope this one does.

Yep, my boat was intended to be a one design class. They made... four!

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amazing that for a one design boat, you need to add a lot of boat specific extra's like outriggers, etc. and 25k for commissioning is also a lot. i can understand electronics as everybody has a preference. but this way with some having more weight due to autopilots, etc, one design is not really one design. 

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On 4/6/2020 at 3:43 AM, troll99 said:

keep saving

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTsIHtIgP-uVj7uzBwjXaj

You finally made a smart post. I agree, that looks comparable in reliability to a G Wagon. Excellent reference. 

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So much talk about stupidity and Einsteinism, monkey. Keep evolving to a human being. :lol:

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On 4/7/2020 at 1:02 PM, Monkey said:
On 4/6/2020 at 1:43 AM, troll99 said:

keep saving

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTsIHtIgP-uVj7uzBwjXaj

You finally made a smart post. I agree, that looks comparable in reliability to a G Wagon. Excellent reference. 

Same suspension design too.

 

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FWIW, since I started this thread - We ended up buying a 2013 J/111.  Lower cost, faster, more room inside, and seems to do well in handicap racing.  All we need now are some races to happen.

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Do you plan to shorthand the 111?

Seems like the 111 is a lateral move from the 120.  What does the 111 bring to the party?

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7 minutes ago, Roleur said:

FWIW, since I started this thread - We ended up buying a 2013 J/111.  Lower cost, faster, more room inside, and seems to do well in handicap racing.  All we need now are some races to happen.

Very cool!  

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2 minutes ago, Teener said:

Do you plan to shorthand the 111?

Seems like the 111 is a lateral move from the 120.  What does the 111 bring to the party?

We do.  Yes, the 120 is/was quite awesome for double-handed and crewed racing + cruising.  We find we are doing very little cruising nowadays and the 111 has two main benefits.  No overlapping headsails and better downwind performance in a breeze.  Plus it is just a smaller, lighter boat, with smaller sails, which is advantageous for DH.  It is a pretty specific decision.  The J/111 probably wouldn't be the choice if we lived somewhere else, but for our region and the races we do, we think it will be ideal.  

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2 hours ago, Roleur said:

We do.  Yes, the 120 is/was quite awesome for double-handed and crewed racing + cruising.  We find we are doing very little cruising nowadays and the 111 has two main benefits.  No overlapping headsails and better downwind performance in a breeze.  Plus it is just a smaller, lighter boat, with smaller sails, which is advantageous for DH.  It is a pretty specific decision.  The J/111 probably wouldn't be the choice if we lived somewhere else, but for our region and the races we do, we think it will be ideal.  

Of course you could not have picked more inopportune time to first purchase the J/111 before attempting to market the J/120 at an unrealistic asking price that has resulted in your promotion to Admiral of the Fleet with a short haircut.

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On 4/10/2020 at 2:28 PM, marcus brutus said:

Of course you could not have picked more inopportune time to first purchase the J/111 before attempting to market the J/120 at an unrealistic asking price that has resulted in your promotion to Admiral of the Fleet with a short haircut.

Seriously George, what the hell is wrong with you?  What went wrong in your life that being a bitter troll on the internet is your only escape?  There is a reason no one likes you. 

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On 4/7/2020 at 3:17 PM, troll99 said:
On 4/7/2020 at 3:17 PM, troll99 said:

So much talk about stupidity and Einsteinism, monkey. Keep evolving to a human being. :lol:

Looks like monkey has become a stalker, following me around all the forum topics much like astronaut's discarded  excrement follows the space shuttle orbit.

Apparently he is suffering from some major anxiety that has made him delusional.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, marcus brutus said:

 

Hi George. I thought you got flicked. 
edit: of course you could always deny being George. However, I’ll grant you a very tiny bit of respect for not denying it. At least you’re not a liar, just an asshole. 
 

edit:  I should add, years ago, you made a very kind offer to me. It makes me think you’re probably a decent guy in real life. I don’t know why it changes on the internet. 

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1 hour ago, Monkey said:

Hi George. I thought you got flicked. 
edit: of course you could always deny being George. However, I’ll grant you a very tiny bit of respect for not denying it. At least you’re not a liar, just an asshole. 

I, on the other hand, have no respect for you due to your low life stalking and repeated intimidation attempts endemic to a provincial small town mentality that has forever been embedded in your flea infested personality.

"You're a little man. It's not that you're short. You're...little, in the mind and in the heart." 

Had you an iota of wit you would have used it; therefore may I suggest that you read Edmond Rostand's play Cyrano de Bergerac; especially Act 1 - Scenes 3 and 4, for mental inspiration prior to responding.

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17 hours ago, Monkey said:

Hi George. I thought you got flicked. 
edit: of course you could always deny being George. However, I’ll grant you a very tiny bit of respect for not denying it. At least you’re not a liar, just an asshole. 
 

edit:  I should add, years ago, you made a very kind offer to me. It makes me think you’re probably a decent guy in real life. I don’t know why it changes on the internet. 

Next time you are in town lets try to have a beer or two.

https://markmanson.net/internet

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On 4/11/2020 at 9:23 PM, marcus brutus said:

I, on the other hand, have no respect for you due to your low life stalking and repeated intimidation attempts endemic to a provincial small town mentality that has forever been embedded in your flea infested personality.

"You're a little man. It's not that you're short. You're...little, in the mind and in the heart." 

Had you an iota of wit you would have used it; therefore may I suggest that you read Edmond Rostand's play Cyrano de Bergerac; especially Act 1 - Scenes 3 and 4, for mental inspiration prior to responding.

Actually, not stalking at all. We shut down for three weeks at work due to a little outbreak inside the building. I had a little free time to read damned near every thread. I responded to asshole responses, most seemed to be your’s. I have no problem confessing that being locked in my house for 3 weeks had me a little cranky. 

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On 4/12/2020 at 1:21 PM, marcus brutus said:

Next time you are in town lets try to have a beer or two.

https://markmanson.net/internet

It won’t be anytime soon. Life is good for now in my “provincial small town.”  I’m quite literally avoiding your city like the plague. 

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More drama here over someone selling and buying a boat than the glee club. 

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48 minutes ago, Miffy said:

More drama here over someone selling and buying a boat than the glee club. 

Right, I just want to talk about the Dehler 30 OD. 

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If you have an Instragram account, check out @left.coast.sailing for more Dehler 30 pictures. 

Dehler_30_OD_Lindlahr_An_068.jpg

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Here is a full US order sheet. Base of $165k, $10k for instruments and autopilot, $33K for North sails, $2k for outriggers, $5k for code 0 and staysail furlers is how I'd build mine. Skip the $4.5k cruising package, and $2k cockpit mounted chartplotter that is sure to be out of date in 3 years.

All in at $215k FOB in the US (unclear how much shipping to the west coast and commissioning would be) is not bad compared to the small French yards. A Pogo 30 can come in a bit below the Dehler, but its an older design and you are on your own for shipping to the states and financing options are pretty limited when 90% of the price is due before construction is completed.

D30od.20_PL_US_20200313.pdf

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12 minutes ago, Alberta said:

Here is a full US order sheet. Base of $165k, $10k for instruments and autopilot, $33K for North sails, $2k for outriggers, $5k for code 0 and staysail furlers is how I'd build mine. Skip the $4.5k cruising package, and $2k cockpit mounted chartplotter that is sure to be out of date in 3 years.

All in at $215k FOB in the US (unclear how much shipping to the west coast and commissioning would be) is not bad compared to the small French yards. A Pogo 30 can come in a bit below the Dehler, but its an older design and you are on your own for shipping to the states and financing options are pretty limited when 90% of the price is due before construction is completed.

D30od.20_PL_US_20200313.pdf

What happened to your "California Discount" ?

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1 hour ago, Alberta said:

Hadn’t really appreciated it before but that is a big rig for a 2.8 ton shorthander even with 200 kgs of water ballast.

Singlehanded it would displace roughly the same as a Farr 30 with 600 kg of crew yet has 15 sqm more upwind area and the same 100 sqm kites that the Farrs that were converted to asyms ended up with. 
 

I wonder if they’ve overcooked it for club racers not in light air venues. Scope to choose a pinhead main with no runners or does that screw the CoE?

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1
29 minutes ago, Snowden said:

I wonder if they’ve overcooked it for club racers not in light air venues. Scope to choose a pinhead main with no runners or does that screw the CoE?

As a comparison point (the only other shorthanded 2.8T 30ft boat I see in production today) the Pogo 30 offers either a carbon rig with 37m square head main and 28.5m J1, or an aluminum rig for IRC with a 25m pinhead and 26m J1. That's a pretty huge difference in sail area between the square and pinhead, and I have to imagine the Dehlar can provide somewhat similar performance to a pinhead setup through reefing the 34.5m main and slab reefing 28m J1 (not to mention the 200kg of water ballast the Pogo lacks).

From what I can tell, runners on both boats aren't required to keep the rig up, and you can leave them off for cruising or lightwind work.

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The Pogo’s carbon mast is 60 cm taller than the original alu one IIRC. And it’s much much wider than this Dehler. 

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23 minutes ago, Snowden said:

The Pogo’s carbon mast is 60 cm taller than the original alu one IIRC. And it’s much much wider than this Dehler. 

Very fair, new pogo mast is 63cm taller and they also increased the roach which gave another 3m on the square head. The equivalent comparison for square vs pinhead on the same size mast would be the 34m vs 25m that the Pogo launched with.

You'll need someone smarter than me to explain how 200kg of water ballast compares to 40cm of beam. 

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4 hours ago, Snowden said:

I wonder if they’ve overcooked it for club racers not in light air venues. Scope to choose a pinhead main with no runners or does that screw the CoE?

Seems like they might be trying to fill a gap that a lot of the new 30-33 footers can't fill.  Light air performance.  We don't all have the fortune to sail is big breeze on a regular basis.  When we were surveying the market for a new boat, most of the new designs have the fatal flaw of being underpowered for our race venue (which is plenty fun sailing & racing if you have enough sail area).  

Glad to see they've increased the sail area on the Pogo 30.  The early boat that I saw sailed like a rock in light air and yet rated like a J/35.  

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7 hours ago, Alberta said:

You'll need someone smarter than me to explain how 200kg of water ballast compares to 40cm of beam. 

Horrendously oversimplified maths says it might be similar as 200 x 1.6 roughly equals 1400 x 0.2?

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4 hours ago, Roleur said:

Seems like they might be trying to fill a gap that a lot of the new 30-33 footers can't fill.  Light air performance.  We don't all have the fortune to sail is big breeze on a regular basis.  When we were surveying the market for a new boat, most of the new designs have the fatal flaw of being underpowered for our race venue (which is plenty fun sailing & racing if you have enough sail area).  

Glad to see they've increased the sail area on the Pogo 30.  The early boat that I saw sailed like a rock in light air and yet rated like a J/35.  

That’s all fair and I imagine the wetted surface on the Pogo does make it very sticky in the light otherwise. 

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I would hope the Dehler would run rings around the Pogo 30 as despite the numbers (and the rest of the pogo range) they are dog slow on a race course. The way I see it with the Dehler 30 One Design is that the sail area is what the sail area is and if you want a pin head main then you get your local loft to build you one...

I personally really like the look of the Dehler. The numbers suggest it will have a big rating under IRC (the similar numbers Pogo 30 once rated at 1.067 in the UK!!) and that will be the challenge if no one design fleet takes off. One boat we race is a J88 and that can hit some pretty big numbers downwind when the breeze is on, the Dehler has a lower DLR and higher SA/D ratio upwind and down but with significantly higher form stability. It ‘should’ go like a scalded cat. Despite the potentially massive gap in rating the JPK 1030 and SF3300 will be very hard to beat on the water let alone under IRC (1.025 and 1.030 respectively) considering the 1030 Leon finished the last fastnet with the highest placed XP44 with a full race setup and pro am crew onboard, 2 Figaro 3s and finished ahead of every J boat on elapsed time too... 

They best hope they can build a OD class, I just don’t think the English Channel and it’s IRC fleets will be the best place for them

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7 hours ago, JL92S said:

I personally really like the look of the Dehler. The numbers suggest it will have a big rating under IRC (the similar numbers Pogo 30 once rated at 1.067 in the UK!!) and that will be the challenge if no one design fleet takes off. One boat we race is a J88 and that can hit some pretty big numbers downwind when the breeze is on, the Dehler has a lower DLR and higher SA/D ratio upwind and down but with significantly higher form stability. It ‘should’ go like a scalded cat.

They best hope they can build a OD class, I just don’t think the English Channel and it’s IRC fleets will be the best place for them

Don't disagree that it will be a hoot to sail... but I'm not sure I would buy one for a RORC season, which is the biggest DH scene in Dehler's home market?

That Pogo 30 rating is just painful, but did anyone ever have a go properly racing with the new rig under IRC?

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Dehler wants to break into Silverrudder scene and hopes on OD in that area. But that is always iffy.

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30 minutes ago, Snowden said:

Don't disagree that it will be a hoot to sail... but I'm not sure I would buy one for a RORC season, which is the biggest DH scene in Dehler's home market?

That Pogo 30 rating is just painful, but did anyone ever have a go properly racing with the new rig under IRC?

I did think the Pogo could be optimised with a lead fin keel without bulb and you could reduce the mainsail area with a smaller square top (maybe 500mm instead of like 1500mm??) and a shorter luff on the jib and you’d achieve a greater rating and the keel might even help the boat upwind and downwind but giving a little away on the reach but I’m sure some carefully selected reaching setups could bring the speed back. I know in the Transquadra they get the rating down some 50 points by using a alloy rig, a mainsail that is short on the foot and has the skinniest pin head on it, small luff jibs and small symmetric kites. In the last race one did quite well.

Theres so much I like about the Dehler, mainly the deck layout, interior layout and the fact the boat just looks good. But in the UK currently any OD boat, that is larger than a J70, is seeing its value fall through the floor as they have no real second use if the class isn’t present. I fear the Dehler 30 could fall into that if someone brought one here but others didn’t follow.

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22 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Dehler wants to break into Silverrudder scene and hopes on OD in that area. But that is always iffy.

There's Vegvisir Race in the area as well, that rounds Fehmarn in Germany. I've heard of at least one Dehler 30OD that has been sold to Denmark, to former X-79 sailors.

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35 minutes ago, JL92S said:

Theres so much I like about the Dehler, mainly the deck layout, interior layout and the fact the boat just looks good. But in the UK currently any OD boat, that is larger than a J70, is seeing its value fall through the floor as they have no real second use if the class isn’t present. I fear the Dehler 30 could fall into that if someone brought one here but others didn’t follow.

We will see and I would love to get a ride on one when it comes to Hamble.

Dehler have the resources to bring out a 'club' version that's optimised for IRC a few years down the line if they choose - that could come at a pretty interesting price and ratings point. Alloy rig, no outriggers, runners or ballast, standard saildrive, it's already got a table down below and the sprit is actually not that long...

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24 minutes ago, Misbehavin' said:

There's Vegvisir Race in the area as well, t

And more challenges and races solo or double handed in that area, small boats have evolved into machines that are easier to sail and still fast.
My hope is to go back to the old classes like in the Ostar of way back, length classes without rating, bring what you have and race. Low cost, only a measure tape is needed.

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23 minutes ago, LeoV said:

And more challenges and races solo or double handed in that area, small boats have evolved into machines that are easier to sail and still fast.
My hope is to go back to the old classes like in the Ostar of way back, length classes without rating, bring what you have and race. Low cost, only a measure tape is needed.

I wholeheartedly agree. As you probably know, that's how it's done in Silver Rudder.

 

Quote

For Silverrudder™ Challenge, seven trophies have been awarded. The holder of a Silverrudder™ Challenge trophy is obliged to return the trophy so that this is in the hands of Svendborg Amatør Sejlklub before the start of the following year’s Silverrudder™ Challenge of the Sea.
A trophy is awarded to each of the following categories. All measurements are in feet (1 feet = 0.3048m) according to Length Overall (LOA) as per World Sailing definition.

Keel boats:
From 18.00 to 25.00 feet incl.
From 25.01 to 30.00 feet incl.
From 30.01 to 35.00 feet incl.
From 35.01 to 40.00 feet incl.
From 40.01 feet and upwards
Multihulls:
From 18.00 to 28.00 feet incl.
From 28.01 feet and upwards.

 

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Something I have a hard time understanding with the Dehler is unless you’re really into OD scene, it is a really expensive odd boat for everything else. 
 

The interior is not great - specifically they seemed to have put a lot of effort to make it quirky and not at all functional underway. The burner isn’t on a gimbal - something so simple kids on mini can rig up with a camping stove and string. The cabin benches, probably the best place for shuteye while underway, the benches are too narrow- could use some leeclothes. I understand the weight and cost budget that Dehler is working with, but it is puzzling. 

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

Something I have a hard time understanding with the Dehler is unless you’re really into OD scene, it is a really expensive odd boat for everything else. 

It appeals to me as a fast is fun boat where you can learn how to short-hand with a modern rig and deck layout plus enough of an interior to bring friends out for a daysail or go for an adventure with your partner, much like a Seascape 27. Compared to the 27, the Dehler gets you there faster, can sleep 4 instead of 2, and is long and stout enough to do most of the big ocean races (Transpac for me). At ~2x the price of the 27, it's not cheap but seems to be in line with what new fast ocean boats sell for and cost to produce. Honestly, I'd already own the 27 except for the illiquidity of sailboats, which has me considering the Dehler so that I wouldn't need to trade up to do bigger offshore events. With how long boats sit on the market, even in good times, it seems the only thing more expensive than buying a boat is having to sell one boat and buy another.

I agree with your statement above if the focus is winning races,  but I'd rather go cruising as fast as possible and measure my success in races by average speed and how many bigger boats finished behind me.

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2 hours ago, Miffy said:

The cabin benches, probably the best place for shuteye while underway, the benches are too narrow- could use some leeclothes. I understand the weight and cost budget that Dehler is working with, but it is puzzling. 

The benches can be adjusted in angle, and stove easy fix to make gimbal.
Bench are to short for me, so I would crash on the floor on a big bean bag if off watch on a race or challenge and aft berths are feeling to daft to climb in.

Dehler-30-od-interior.jpg

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4 minutes ago, LeoV said:

The benches can be adjusted in angle, and stove easy fix to make gimbal.
Bench are to short for me, so I would crash on the floor on a big bean bag if off watch on a race or challenge and aft berths are feeling to daft to climb in.

Dehler-30-od-interior.jpg

To me, and again I’m not invalidating other people’s program choices or buying preferences- it seems like it wants to be offshore boat (sailplan/draft & water ballast) but without rating and... just little design choices that don’t work for offshore. If the default galley comes out of the factory needing a gimbal - they should have just molded a indent, put a gimbal tray and mounted the one burner on top of it. But Dehler needs the margins I guess?

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Miffy said:

If the default galley comes out of the factory needing a gimbal - they should have just molded a indent, put a gimbal tray and mounted the one burner on top of it. But Dehler needs the margins I guess?

Probably there were so many variations, that the simplest is installed. For short races you just fill a few thermos cans with hot water and of you go.
And gimbals makes for jumpy pots in heavy weather, just fix it in the average best situation was my solution. Jetboil with elastic. I can see my DIY in a day on that setup.

No boat is 100% according to wishes, if that is all there is wrong with, I can easily live with it.

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Posted (edited)

Danish review of the Dehler, expecting IRC of 1.075. Yachting World review to be out in the May issue.

 https://www.baadmagasinet.dk/images/dehler_30_od_med_kæmpe_potentiale.pdf

I agree that the fixed stove choice in hulls 1 and 2 is odd, but I'm no offshore expert. I'm curious to see photos from customer production boats to see what has changed, already mentioned is a change to the v-berth cushions. I'd also like to see a boat without the grey (and visually unappealing to me) fabric wall coverings included in the 'cruising pack'. 

EDIT: IRC at 1.054 in this preliminary rating

 

DEHLER 30 - IRC design trial.pdf

Edited by Alberta
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Do the hull and deck in black, install some flir camera's and go play Hugo Boss.
If only I had the money... that race to the North in the Baltic seems like a nice challenge.
 

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Ok, just so that I get it right.

This design below, the JPK 9.60, is SEVENTEEN YEARS OLD,  just a bit heavier, a tiny bit less sail area (upwind, because downwind is always a bit more flexible), has basically identical Polar curves as the new Dehler girl (as far as numbers were available), an IRC rating of 0.983 and costs around 60k EUR used, probably debatable.

What am I missing? Where is the value in chosing the Dehler, apart from the new car smell?

DSC00434.JPG

 

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I have seen that puppy, and love it. But it is an older design, ass is important, this ass is old fashioned and out of style :) Overall the Dehler will be easier to sail fast.
And no factory support in the Baltic, no new car smell, not many on the market, and cockpit not as sheltered as the Dehler, important in colder North.

Looking at my wallet, have to wait till JPK puppy gets even cheaper...

Oh Polar was made up with this personal, though it sailed doublehanded in the fastnet etc, good boat.

image.png.a9b29d8e683d7f5dd426022a7a31313c.png

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27 minutes ago, Alberta said:

EDIT: IRC at 1.054 in this preliminary rating

DEHLER 30 - IRC design trial.pdf

Ouch, same zipcode as the SF 3600.

Plus if my French is correct that IRC config is already detuned vs the brochure - shorter sprit (STL minus J is only 0.4m), smaller kite (95 sqm vs 100 sqm), smaller main (27 sqm vs 34 sqm),  and no water ballast.

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☝
1
9 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Ok, just so that I get it right.

This design below, the JPK 9.60, is SEVENTEEN YEARS OLD,  just a bit heavier, a tiny bit less sail area (upwind, because downwind is always a bit more flexible), has basically identical Polar curves as the new Dehler girl (as far as numbers were available), an IRC rating of 0.983 and costs around 60k EUR used, probably debatable.

What am I missing? Where is the value in chosing the Dehler, apart from the new car smell?

600kg in a 30ft boat is more than just-a-bit heavier. I agree that the Dehler's polars are disappointing. Hopefully, we will see the real world performance soon. 

For those of us outside Europe, these type of used boats don't exist locally. Which can make the time savings and financing options (not to mention the ability to buy when the time is right personally, rather than when the ideal boat hits the market) of a new boat appealing compared with organizing a foreign purchase, shipping it home, buying new sails from lofts that haven't ever seen this type of boat, and managing a refit.

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6 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Ok, just so that I get it right.

This design below, the JPK 9.60, is SEVENTEEN YEARS OLD,  just a bit heavier, a tiny bit less sail area (upwind, because downwind is always a bit more flexible), has basically identical Polar curves as the new Dehler girl (as far as numbers were available), an IRC rating of 0.983 and costs around 60k EUR used, probably debatable.

What am I missing? Where is the value in chosing the Dehler, apart from the new car smell?

 

I'll take a swing at answering your question. 

  1. It's likely that the VPP for the Dehler 30 is extremely conservative. I don't have much empirical evidence for this, but water ballast + high aspect ratio keel + retractable prop + gigantic sails + CFD optimized hull design seems like it might be just a little faster. 
  2. The JPK 9.60 is still only available in Europe, so if I wanted one here in CA I'd be paying another ≈$30K on top of the cheapest JPK on YachtWorld which is starting to get into new Seascape (First) 27 territory
  3. The Dehler 30 is pretty and the heart wants what the heart wants

 

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I really, really doubt that the Dehler will ever sail to its rating.

Now, if that's not what you're after, if you just want to be the guy who stole Vegvisir or Silverrudder, than that's fine with me and I understand that. And it is a good looking, well-engineered boat. But don't come crying, if someone in a not-so-much modified Farr 280 or -God forbid- an Esse 850 comes thundering by you. Because these two stole it last year.

You see, I love new boats, and new designs. And this Judel/Vrolijk design is engineering at its best. But to what specification? I'm by job definition dealing with finding value and efficiency potential and comparing options to meet specs. And I don't see the edge here, and I picked the 960 as a prime example. Because they sail to their rating and way beyond their present value.

This new kid rather looks to me to appeal to the MAMIL kind of guy (like me). It's a cyclist term for middle aged men in lycra. Always very bling bikes, very expensive apparel, carbon here, carbon there. And 20% body fat and an FTP of 200. And no time to find efficiency and value in training and nutrition. 

I think that if you CAN sail really fast, than you will make this boat really, really fast. But I fear that most of the target audience is not really up to the task, let alone sailing it to its rating. Just look at the start of the Silverrudder 2018, most starters were absolutely overwhelmed with -in my view- strong but not threatening conditions.  can hardly see any of them moving to the bow to reef the jib (because yes, this is how this jib is designed, you reef it. Like the mainsail). 

It's a weapon. But can you shot at 1.054 or higher (or even higher to beat that)? Because if you can: there is a probably a Figaro 3 waiting for you.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Some.Rando said:
  1. The JPK 9.60 is still only available in Europe, so if I wanted one here in CA I'd be paying another ≈$30K on top of the cheapest JPK on YachtWorld which is starting to get into new Seascape (First) 27 territory

 

there´s a cheap 960 for sale in Martinique, French West indies, if you are on the East coast

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On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2020 at 12:00 PM, Misbehavin' said:

There's Vegvisir Race in the area as well, that rounds Fehmarn in Germany. I've heard of at least one Dehler 30OD that has been sold to Denmark, to former X-79 sailors.

Yep. That would be me and my brother :-D

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1 hour ago, Djoller said:

Yep. That would be me and my brother :-D

Tillykke (congratulation) to you with it! I'm looking forward to seeing it out on the water, hopefully in some of the bigger distance races (?), when everything normalizes.

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4 hours ago, Djoller said:

Yep. That would be me and my brother :-D

Nice! When do you take delivery? 

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