Sign in to follow this  
Shortforbob

Wealth

Recommended Posts

14 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

 

According to the link below the living wage varies significantly from state to state with Mississippi being the lowest at $58k ($27/hr) and Hawaii being the highest at $136k ($65/hr). That's a huge variance that would be difficult to manage as products produced in the south would be vastly less expensive than if made in Hawaii or California or anywhere in the East Coast

 

  https://www.gobankingrates.com/making-money/jobs/living-wage-every-state/#37

The US median income on 2018 was approximately $51.5k for wage amd salary earners. To foolishly suggest  that you need 113% of median to achieve a "liveable income" in Mississippo indicates  your bias, politics or your IQ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Nice essay but a bit short on essentials, it basically only talks about median wage and housing costs. It is a good illustration of the wide geographic differences in economics.

One thing to consider, the "red states" which have low taxes and even lower services, have the lowest wages generally and also the lowest costs of common "basket" including groceries and housing. But they also have the lowest education, the lowest life expectancy, other metrics of public health are the worst in the country, they have the lowest upward economic mobility, although most of them have lower gaps between their "average income" and their "living wage."

Most of these states have already seen an influx of business that can profit by cheap labor and lower environmental regulation. I grew up mostly in the South when the South was the 3rd world country of the US and factories had been moving there for the past hundred years. These businesses have now moved to Bangladesh and similar blighted misruled countries (funny coincidence, most of them are also highly corrupt).

Should we compete by bringing back these jobs, with lots of pollution, no worker safety, no education, etc etc? The red states are already going in this direction... it's part of their history anyway... and their average quality of life is poor and getting worse. Low population density means the good ol' boys can still hunt in the same woods as their granpappy, so that's something.

Economic competition is very real and it's not going away, but we can compete intelligently rather than trying to push standards down and race to the bottom (with the fruits of victory going to the 0.1%).

- DSK

Agreed it was just a kick off point.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Movable Ballast said:

Happy to unpack it with you if we can remain civil. 

Let's start with the basics of the Paradigm... Living wage, what is the definition? 

I can remain civil.

Living wage will mean something different to everyone, depending on lifestyle.  But lets define a "living wage" as a wage that pays sufficiently enough so that a person working a 40 hour week at one job does not need to work a second job nor apply for social programs in order to make ends meet, and still have some left over after all the bills are paid.   Again, this is going to be different for everyone based on circumstances and location, but to put a number to it, lets call it $60K a year.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, sail611 said:

I can remain civil.

Living wage will mean something different to everyone, depending on lifestyle.  But lets define a "living wage" as a wage that pays sufficiently enough so that a person working a 40 hour week at one job does not need to work a second job nor apply for social programs in order to make ends meet, and still have some left over after all the bills are paid.   Again, this is going to be different for everyone based on circumstances and location, but to put a number to it, lets call it $60K a year.

 

Wages are directly related to the type of work produced in exchange for one time and skill and how easy or difficult it is to find a person to replace your contributions. The burden is on the employee to bring a skill in demand to the marketplace not the employer to pay for any particular lifestyle. Hard working tradesmen do just fine , 2 year AA degrees pay well also. If all you have is breathing body then there is no sympathy 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, sail611 said:

I can remain civil.

Living wage will mean something different to everyone, depending on lifestyle.  But lets define a "living wage" as a wage that pays sufficiently enough so that a person working a 40 hour week at one job does not need to work a second job nor apply for social programs in order to make ends meet, and still have some left over after all the bills are paid.   Again, this is going to be different for everyone based on circumstances and location, but to put a number to it, lets call it $60K a year.

 

OK cool.

$60 or about $29/hr. That's not bad tack for unskilled operators or other service work. Let's use a service industry company like Starbucks. Starbucks Net profit for 2019 was 13.85% (3.6B income on 29B revenue) with the vast majority of COGs being labor and pays about $15/hr. Starbucks has about 385,000 employees (let's assume 80% are service workers so 308,000 workers) . If Starbucks was to raise the wages of these workers to $29/hr it would cost them about $4.3M or roughly 10% of their net margins. So OK maybe Starbucks could give back a little. 

However Most companies net profit margins are not that good about 8%. So these companies would have to make the difference up in higher prices for the product. That's OK I guess so long as the market wants the product. The problem I see with increase wages is that the employee ends up competing against a machine that works for much less. Once wages get to a point where it makes sense for industry to automate that job then they will. So the $29/hr job just became a $0/hr job for many in the service industry.

How do we combat that?    

image.png.145aa1a8234a0b606e08ef2bcab21664.png

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll see your Ludwig Von Mises and raise you a Dean Baker . . 

If Worker Pay Had Kept Pace With Productivity Gains Since 1968, Today's Minimum Wage Would Be $24 an Hour

https://commons.commondreams.org/t/if-worker-pay-had-kept-pace-with-productivity-gains-since-1968-todays-minimum-wage-would-be-24-an-hour/72646/2

There are some good economists out there - you might try reading some . .  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

I'll see your Ludwig Von Mises and raise you a Dean Baker . . 

If Worker Pay Had Kept Pace With Productivity Gains Since 1968, Today's Minimum Wage Would Be $24 an Hour

https://commons.commondreams.org/t/if-worker-pay-had-kept-pace-with-productivity-gains-since-1968-todays-minimum-wage-would-be-24-an-hour/72646/2

Yeah but... Productivity gains since 1968 are not all human effort so it's not a great comparison. I did take note of this part of the article. 

"This raises a final point: we can’t imagine that we can just raise the minimum wage to $24 an hour without serious disruptions to the economy, many of which would have bad effects (i.e., unemployment) for those at the bottom. While there is certainly room to raise the minimum wage, and many states have done so with no measurable impact on employment, there clearly is a limit to how far and how fast we can go."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Movable Ballast said:

"This raises a final point: we can’t imagine that we can just raise the minimum wage to $24 an hour without serious disruptions to the economy, many of which would have bad effects (i.e., unemployment) for those at the bottom. While there is certainly room to raise the minimum wage, and many states have done so with no measurable impact on employment, there clearly is a limit to how far and how fast we can go."

I would agree with you and Baker on that - but that is not the same as the alarmist BS of the Reich that raising the Min Wage will immediately lead to economic chaos. 

Here is Seattle at $ 15/hour  https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/7/13/20690266/seattle-minimum-wage-15-dollars

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Wouldn't it be better to have an actual working economy that had actual jobs with actual paychecks, you know like so people that were working two jobs could afford food and maybe pay the electric bill?

 

 That's not the way America was in the past and not how America got to be great in the first place. But hey, you love a President who brags about his dick and rips everybody off, you want a rip-off economy, that's what you get. Hope you enjoy the riots too.

- DSK

It wasn't?

image.jpeg.1353c9e267d4ee5ce03ad9046406ac92.jpeg

image.jpeg.f43b748e5183b480c67c1376053ee01f.jpeg

Image result for dorothea lange photos

The USA has never been generous to it's working poor. If it was you'd have decent medical care old age pensions you can live on for all, and a decent social security safety net that doesn't rely on past payments.Like the rest of the developed world. OH and NO FUCKING FOOD STAMPS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

I would agree with you and Baker on that - but that is not the same as the alarmist BS of the Reich that raising the Min Wage will immediately lead to economic chaos. 

Here is Seattle at $ 15/hour  https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/7/13/20690266/seattle-minimum-wage-15-dollars

No, no economic chaos but the Seattle experiment did create fewer people with more money initially. Good for the fewer people now making $15/16 - hr, not so good for the newly unemployed... One can hope that with our currently expanding economy and low unemployment that these folks will be working again soon.  

There is room to raise wages but from my experience we don't need to at this point. In this economy the need for labor far outstrips the supply as such wages are going up without government intervention. I can't hire anyone for less than $18/20 per hr and many are well above that in the mid $20s. The kind of employee you get for 9 bucks, you don't want...  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

isn't seattle at like 3.9% unemployment?

No! it's 2.0% right now, down from 2.4. As I mentioned this economy is fueling all kinds of job growth. 

The problem will be when the economy takes the inevitable downturn. If higher wages are mandated the only solution is to lay people off. If it's market driven wages can flex with the demand. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, warbird said:

Unemployment at 3.8% suggests a working economy. If you and your boyfriend are both working two jobs you should have a combined household above the US median of $51.5k US Bureau of labor statistics.

 https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2019/mobile/median-usual-weekly-earnings-of-men-and-women-2010-to-2018.htm

people shouldn't have to work 4 jobs to get the national median average, while a handfull of people own the world. thats kind of the point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

No! it's 2.0% right now, down from 2.4. As I mentioned this economy is fueling all kinds of job growth. 

The problem will be when the economy takes the inevitable downturn. If higher wages are mandated the only solution is to lay people off. If it's market driven wages can flex with the demand. 

i swear you just said a minute ago that higher wages mean higher unemployment.  Didn't you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

No, no economic chaos but the Seattle experiment did create fewer people with more money initially. Good for the fewer people now making $15/16 - hr, not so good for the newly unemployed... One can hope that with our currently expanding economy and low unemployment that these folks will be working again soon.  

There is room to raise wages but from my experience we don't need to at this point. In this economy the need for labor far outstrips the supply as such wages are going up without government intervention. I can't hire anyone for less than $18/20 per hr and many are well above that in the mid $20s. The kind of employee you get for 9 bucks, you don't want...  

There are non so blind as those that will not see.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, MR.CLEAN said:

i swear you just said a minute ago that higher wages mean higher unemployment.  Didn't you?

Initially, in Seattle that was the case. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

There are non so blind as those that will not see.

 

I don't see your point... Have you ever hired unskilled labor at bottom of the barrel rates? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

I don't see your point... Have you ever hired unskilled labor at bottom of the barrel rates? 

No because we have industry awards , you pay all employees the minimum or above wage the Gov tells you is appropriate for any given job, skilled or unskilled.

I have employed unskilled labour, the secret to getting good unskilled labour is offering award wages, looking past the tats and teeth and being skilled yourself in interviewing techniques.

I get sick to death of lazy or unskilled employers complaining about their last hire when they probably let half a dozen good potentials go for not fitting their preconceived ideas. Or giving jobs to people who "interview well" and turn out duds. Don't they know there are a thousand Youtube clips out there teaching people "How to slam an interview!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

Initially, in Seattle that was the case. 

So it's just for a little while and then the unemployment all but disappears?  Sounds pretty good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

So it's just for a little while and then the unemployment all but disappears?  Sounds pretty good.

Sounds like a Hans Christian Anderson fairy tale.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

So it's just for a little while and then the unemployment all but disappears?  Sounds pretty good.

In an economy like this one I would say yes! As previously stated when the economy turns down with higher wages the effect of that turndown (layoffs) will be greater. At least in my opinion.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple thoughts.

A smallish specialty products company I am familiar with uses a lot of unskilled warehouse type labor.   They were forced to fire a bunch of Nigerian refugees.  They had legally been in the country since 2015? but aren't allowed to work.  Think about the asinine morons in Washington that made that compromise.  You can stay here, but you can't legally work????    When their false paperwork was discovered they were discharged, despite their pleas.   The replacements are the bottom of the barrel.   One guy was hired despite a grand theft auto conviction, with the theory he could help them out if the keys were locked in a truck again.   He lasted 5 days, due to a couple bogus complaints against coworkers disproven by security cameras and his own girlfriend's story.   Most just don't show up, or show up stoned.  The owner is making the obvious choice, investing big money in automation.   

Working conditions and job satisfaction are key to employee retention.  In the current market, my productivity and hours are limited by available manpower (including skilled).   I need to keep raising fees to raise salaries, but living in a poor area I depend on other people's salaries improving enough to pay my increased fees.   Large businesses able to buy regulators and tax exemption further limit margins available to raise salaries.   Benefits are another enticement small business cannot offer.  I waisted many hours (evening and so called days off) on health insurance this winter, I just can't seem to provide anything affordable to my team.    

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Movable Ballast said:

I don't see your point... Have you ever hired unskilled labor at bottom of the barrel rates? 

So, what is to be done with them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Lark said:

A couple thoughts.

A smallish specialty products company I am familiar with uses a lot of unskilled warehouse type labor.   They were forced to fire a bunch of Nigerian refugees.  They had legally been in the country since 2015? but aren't allowed to work.  Think about the asinine morons in Washington that made that compromise.  You can stay here, but you can't legally work????    When their false paperwork was discovered they were discharged, despite their pleas.   The replacements are the bottom of the barrel.   One guy was hired despite a grand theft auto conviction, with the theory he could help them out if the keys were locked in a truck again.   He lasted 5 days, due to a couple bogus complaints against coworkers disproven by security cameras and his own girlfriend's story.   Most just don't show up, or show up stoned.  The boss is making the obvious choice, investing big money in automation.   

Working conditions and job satisfaction are key to employee retention.  In the current market, my productivity and hours are limited by available manpower (including skilled).   I need to keep raising fees to raise salaries, but living in a poor area I depend on other people's salaries improving enough to pay my increased fees.   Large businesses able to buy regulators and tax exemption further limit margins available to raise salaries.   Benefits are another enticement small business cannot offer.  I waisted many hours (evening and so called days off) on health insurance this winter, I just can't seem to provide anything affordable to my team.    

 

 

 

use your imagination and ask them what they want. It's not always about money, depending on what you do and your employees needs.

A happy flexible workplace is worth more than dollars. Flexible starting and finishing times, longer (unpaid)un rostered  lunch breaks so they can sometimes have lunch with their partner or kids on a whim, an extra hours bank. (so they can work up payed days off)voluntary  on site hearing checks or eye checks cost you little buy employees appreciate the thought. hundreds and hundreds of incentives to want to work with your company that cost nothing or next to nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

So, what is to be done with them?

soylent green.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

use your imagination and ask them what they want. It's not always about money, depending on what you do and your employees needs.

A happy flexible workplace is worth more than dollars. Flexible starting and finishing times, longer (unpaid)un rostered  lunch breaks so they can sometimes have lunch with their partner or kids on a whim, an extra hours bank. (so they can work up payed days off)voluntary  on site hearing checks or eye checks cost you little buy employees appreciate the thought. hundreds and hundreds of incentives to want to work with your company that cost nothing or next to nothing.

All of that takes change and management loved the ‘08 to ‘13 or so labor market in the US where labor was desperate, and management is having a hard time adapting 

soylent green isn’t far off the mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do pretty much as I like in my job because the work is always there and can be done at any time.

I have set hours but if I want  to start late or finish early I simply ring in and say I'm going to be late, or tell my boss I'm leaving early and make the time up later.

Because there's lots of different tasks, I decide what's urgent and what can wait. 

In return, my boss gets to pay me a lowish wage and has a dedicated employee that he knows he can depend on to be flexible in return. work extra shifts if someone is missing, swap shifts on a moments notice, hell, even fix the leaky pipes from wrecking the books until a plumber gets there.

Jobs with conditions like these are gold to parents yet like hens teeth to find.

They really shouldn't be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, sail611 said:

I can remain civil.

Living wage will mean something different to everyone, depending on lifestyle.  But lets define a "living wage" as a wage that pays sufficiently enough so that a person working a 40 hour week at one job does not need to work a second job nor apply for social programs in order to make ends meet, and still have some left over after all the bills are paid.   Again, this is going to be different for everyone based on circumstances and location, but to put a number to it, lets call it $60K a year.

 

Your liveable wage of $60k is more than $8k higher than the US median income. You are suggesting that way more than 1/2 US workers do not earn a living wage. Think about that:ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

use your imagination and ask them what they want. It's not always about money, depending on what you do and your employees needs.

A happy flexible workplace is worth more than dollars. Flexible starting and finishing times, longer (unpaid)un rostered  lunch breaks so they can sometimes have lunch with their partner or kids on a whim, an extra hours bank. (so they can work up payed days off)voluntary  on site hearing checks or eye checks cost you little buy employees appreciate the thought. hundreds and hundreds of incentives to want to work with your company that cost nothing or next to nothing.

Extra hours are overtime pay at time and a half.   Anything else would be in violation of labor rules.  I don’t play games with fake management on salary to like the big guys do, to require extra hours and avoid OT.    Sometimes limited work can be done from home for addl hours or if short because of sick kids.   

Healthcare is the biggest desire.    Flex time is given as possible, but we can only allow so many days in a row before we are forced to hire making the position redundant.    Eye checks?   Trying to compete with Walmart?   Costco is the go to for hearing I’m told, if cost is an issue.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Lark said:

Extra hours are overtime pay at time and a half.   Anything else would be in violation of labor rules.  I don’t play games with fake management like the big guys do, to avoid OT.      

Depending on the situation, time and a half does not cost the employer significantly (if at all) more than straight time as the employee's benefits are levied against the first 40 hours. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lark said:

Extra hours are overtime pay at time and a half.   Anything else would be in violation of labor rules.  I don’t play games with fake management like the big guys do, to avoid OT.    Sometimes limited work can be done from home for addl hours or if short because of the kids, if desired.   

Healthcare is the biggest desire.    Flex time is given as possible, but we can only allow so many days in a row before we are forced to hire making the position redundant.    Eye checks?   Trying to compete with Walmart?   Costco is the go to for hearing I’m told, if cost is an issue.    

yeah..but to get eye and hearing at walmart requires their time..do a better job onsite on your time.

extra hours? you wont be in trouble offering "Time in Lieu  if they are purely voluntary and requested by the employee unless they are over the statutary max , this is good for part time employees..full timers you'd have to offer time and a half (or the OT rate in liew.

Have you thought of inviting a union rep over and ask what you can offer your employees legally other than money to make you attractive to employees. You'd be surprised at how useful a good rep can be to an employer even if your not a union shop.

Unions actually like non union employers to talk to them, it's a win/win..you get free industrial law advise and some ideas to help your employees, the union gets some credit and maybe new members.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Depending on the situation, time and a half does not cost the employer significantly (if at all) more than straight time as the employee's benefits are levied against the first 40 hours. 

Is there a chart or cheat sheet?    I use a payroll company and see the totals but not the process.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Lark said:

Is there a chart or cheat sheet?    I use a payroll company and see the totals but not the process.   

It's going to be different for every employee unless they all make the same amount and have the same benefits.

Ask your payroll guy what employee X costs per hour on a 40hr week and what X costs at time and a half.  It will not be 1.5x. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Lark said:

Extra hours are overtime pay at time and a half.   Anything else would be in violation of labor rules.  I don’t play games with fake management on salary to like the big guys do, to require extra hours and avoid OT.    Sometimes limited work can be done from home for addl hours or if short because of sick kids.   

Healthcare is the biggest desire.    Flex time is given as possible, but we can only allow so many days in a row before we are forced to hire making the position redundant.    Eye checks?   Trying to compete with Walmart?   Costco is the go to for hearing I’m told, if cost is an issue.    

I assume you've looked into COSE (https://www.cose.org) - I'm pretty sure they cover Erie county and I seem to remember you were around Sandusky.

Internships where you get part of the salary paid by various state programs can be a decent way to get some creative help.  Tap the local colleges.

We made some of our tasks as simple and repetitive as possible and then engaged CEVEC vocational Schools (http://www.mayfieldschools.org/CEVEC.aspx)  Not sure if anything like that exists in your neck of the woods but that can work and be rewarding if you've got the right task.

Depending on your business and the owners network, you can sometimes get an angel investor to help but that's really not worth the effort if you're green-fielding and it depends a lot on your business.  Which leads to become someone's LLC and use their benefits.  Small fish are meant to be eaten by big fish these days.  That's the status quo.

Small business is hard.  I kinda miss the challenge some days but not really :).

Good luck - its a tough road.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

It's going to be different for every employee unless they all make the same amount and have the same benefits.

Ask your payroll guy what employee X costs per hour on a 40hr week and what X costs at time and a half.  It will not be 1.5x. 

 

Thanks.     I look at the big picture of customer satisfaction and outcomes, but realize it’s more expensive.   How much more expensive is difficult for me to calculate.    Labor is my most expensive component, followed by other fixed costs.

  My GF works for a large dental corporation that pays the manager bonuses to avoid overtime.   Therefore high revenue denture jobs are often rescheduled to avoid overtime that would cost the company less then $100 even if overtime was still the same ratio of withholdings.    They also play the corporate game of pushing the end of the month at the expense of the next month.   I’m not a dentist, but find their system entertaining.    If corporate experts didn’t give bonuses and promotions for meeting the wrong targets the little guys without a plan wouldn’t stand a chance.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

people shouldn't have to work 4 jobs to get the national median average, while a handfull of people own the world. thats kind of the point.

No,  people should offer median value labor/skill for median income.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Grrr... said:

Don't worry.  We'll wait while you look them up warbird.

Are you trying out a new stand up routine? :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Are you trying out a new stand up routine? :lol:

He was responding to another poster, not WarBird 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hey 'warbird', do you rain death from above or idiocy from between your ears?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

I assume you've looked into COSE (https://www.cose.org) - I'm pretty sure they cover Erie county and I seem to remember you were around Sandusky.

Internships where you get part of the salary paid by various state programs can be a decent way to get some creative help.  Tap the local colleges.

We made some of our tasks as simple and repetitive as possible and then engaged CEVEC vocational Schools (http://www.mayfieldschools.org/CEVEC.aspx)  Not sure if anything like that exists in your neck of the woods but that can work and be rewarding if you've got the right task.

Depending on your business and the owners network, you can sometimes get an angel investor to help but that's really not worth the effort if you're green-fielding and it depends a lot on your business.  Which leads to become someone's LLC and use their benefits.  Small fish are meant to be eaten by big fish these days.  That's the status quo.

Small business is hard.  I kinda miss the challenge some days but not really :).

Good luck - its a tough road.

Thanks,   I’ve not wanted to blatantly out myself in the forum as a I’m a token progressive (not especially liberal) in conservative land.   Nobody around here sails, but others of thinner skin have been driven to suicide by cyber bullying.   Why make it easy to be identified by a google search?   I’m more open in messages.   Sandusky is a great place to play, so my boats have wheels.    My work is specialized and overhead is high.   Fringes are constantly under erosion by parties that minimize overhead by picking and choosing niches that can be done without a permanent physical presence or tax exempt.    Add corporate competition and their ability to drive regulation, and its challenging.   Fortunately I’m more adaptable then a big company.    I’m a small fish for sure, a stubborn individualist.  

SOCA group health insurance was disappointing.   Ohio law prevents an association from offering group insurance here.   

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Lark said:

Thanks,   I’ve not wanted to blatantly out myself in the forum as a I’m a token progressive (not especially liberal) in conservative land.   Nobody around here sails, but others of thinner skin have been driven to suicide by cyber bullying.   Why make it easy to be identified by a google search?   I’m more open in messages.   Sandusky is a great place to play, so my boats have wheels.    My work is specialized and overhead is high.   Fringes are constantly under erosion by parties that minimize overhead by picking and choosing niches that can be done without a permanent physical presence or tax exempt.    Add corporate competition and their ability to drive regulation, and its challenging.   Fortunately I’m more adaptable then a big company.    I’m a small fish for sure, a stubborn individualist.  

SOCA group health insurance was disappointing.   Ohio law prevents an association from offering group insurance here.   

I totally understand.  I don't honestly know how any small business can offer much of anything which is why I tend to be in favor of some sort of medicare for all and UBI.  I don't really 'like' either option but honestly, I don't see any other avenue if you actually want to have an entrepreneurial sector that actually makes stuff.  The grind is just too painful and there's not a lot of hope.  Not for another 6 years at least.

Again, best wishes.  Hang in there and take the small wins.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its always interesting to read the difference in the mind set here,

from someone who's been employed all their life, and especially in any level of any government tax payer funded job, and then someone who works in the private sector, retail, warehouse, office, and then someone who works and is paid based on their hard earned established good reputation, and finally someone whose had to make a payroll.

I'd guess many here have never had to make a pay roll.  

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, warbird said:

No,  people should offer median value labor/skill for median income.

You're median income 2016 was $32,000

If your "median" skill level pays only $32,000 you're being underpaid or under educated i'm guessing both.

My income is $60,000 PA for shelving books and driving a van :rolleyes:

A kitchen hand at Maccas gets $35,000 PA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Keith said:

Its always interesting to read the difference in the mind set here,

from someone who's been employed all their life, and especially in any level of any government tax payer funded job, and then someone who works in the private sector, retail, warehouse, office, and then someone who works and is paid based on their hard earned established good reputation, and finally someone whose had to make a payroll.

I'd guess many here have never had to make a pay roll.  

 

I've done all four and my attitude has never changed...you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The small company I worked for offered MSA's and subsidized health insurance, but that was quite a while ago. I recall not being pleased with Blue Cross Blue Shield NC as they seemed to expect their clients to get free health care via emergency room and county services rather than offer so much a a copay for MD visits.

Things have changed but not all for the better

- DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Shortforbob said:

I've done all three and my attitude has never changed...you?

Never worked for a government. Made many payrolls. 

What is your attitude?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Keith said:

Never worked for a government. Made many payrolls. 

What is your attitude?

well you read my posts.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Shortforbob said:

well you read my posts.

 

Let me get your post colour right for you.

Oh, and by the way, what is the most difficult part of running a business? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

You're median income 2016 was $32,000

If your "median" skill level pays only $32,000 you're being underpaid or under educated i'm guessing both.

I seriously doubt Wardodo has a "median" skill level at anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Keith said:

Let me get your post colour right for you.

Oh, and by the way, what is the most difficult part of running a business? 

Apparently it's making the payroll.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

I seriously doubt Wardodo has a "median" skill level at anything.

I have to admit, the job he did finishing his basement looked top notch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Movable Ballast said:

I don't see your point... Have you ever hired unskilled labor at bottom of the barrel rates? 

Not involved in hiring/firing (well, I helped a couple guys get themselves fired) but I was involved in training off-the-street hires. In boom years, it was tough to even get them in the door... whose were the years when all subcontractors were pushing their foremen to learn Spanish... it is difficult to get productive work out of them for quite a long period of training. Shucks, it's difficult to get them up to the level of being able to walk across a work site safely.

Wages are fairly pure market. OTOH the greatest asset is the skill and motivation of intelligent capable people. The small company I worked for had the long-term goal of being able to supply the highest level of skill in industrial technology, basically we could name our own price. The flip side of that is that we needed to front a LOT of training. It worked for a pretty good while, long enough for me to become a retired volunteer sailing coach. But the company was bought up by a corporation and  it blew apart because the technicians that held this key took their skills elsewhere in the face of intransigent management (mostly absentee) and declining wage/benefits.

- DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Keith said:

Let me get your post colour right for you.

Oh, and by the way, what is the most difficult part of running a business? 

you mean you think I should have been sarcastic when I assumed you'd read my posts? You're probably correct. Reading and understanding can be leagues apart. As for the second "question" That would depend on any number of things and if you think all businesses "run" the same well??? Perhapes you should have said "successfully" run a business..My answer would probably be different from yours.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Keith said:

That's a quality non-answer.

Well I don't think that anyone has a right to be greedy at the expense of others.

Which gets back to the OP. All of those top 1%, in fact you could probably reasonably say 99.9% of billionaires  have made their money by exploiting someone else or cheating someone else, Bullying someone else or even killing someone else either directly or at arms length.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK,

Steam flyer touched on it,

People are the most important part of a business, finding, keeping and taking excellent care of them is what makes or breaks a business. 

simple.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Keith said:

OK,

Steam flyer touched on it,

People are the most important part of a business, finding, keeping and taking excellent care of them is what makes or breaks a business. 

simple.

 

 

sounds nice in a seminar, but I think I could name you any number of financially viable business that take shitty care of their workers and turn em over like pages of airport blockbuster.

Like everything, it depends on the type of business and I notice the R word is missing from that pitch. You can find, keep and look after a radish plant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's exactly the response I would expect from someone that's been a public employee all their life.

carry on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:
12 minutes ago, Keith said:

OK,

Steam flyer touched on it,

People are the most important part of a business, finding, keeping and taking excellent care of them is what makes or breaks a business. 

simple.

 

 

sounds nice in a seminar, but I think I could name you any number of financially viable business that take shitty care of their workers and turn em over like pages of airport blockbuster.

Like everything, it depends on the type of business and I notice the R word is missing from that pitch. You can find, keep and look after a radish plant.

 

It very much depends on the kind of business. But some principles apply broadly. Take mines, for example. Working in a mine is suicide, mine workers are an expendable commodity. OTOH a certain amount of training and safety pays off in higher productivity. Where do you draw the line?

One of the issues that doesn't get much play is the productivity of capital vs that of labor. We're seeing a consistent shift towards higher and higher productivity of labor, this is part of why the income distribution is so skewed in favor of those who are already wealthy (ie employing capital).

- DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing is the disparity in pain inflicted if a business fails. Workers don't get an equal share of profit yet when a business goes into receivership they are lucky if they get what's owed, lose their job, which usually means going into debt or losing their assets. The Employer OTOH has a right to keep certain items, and with a good lawyer? well lets just say the bigger you are the more essential that home seems to become.

They pay their taxes out of the wages an employer provides. The employer pays less. This is the sold as the incentive to employ people or rather should I say it's the threat big companies make to governments "guarantee our profits or watch your unemployed skyrocket".

Even the taxes the peasants pay to their overlords don't get spent on safety nets for them, like health care and aged pensions and unemployment insurance..oh no..the peasants have to pay this themselves ..extra.

Those taxes get spent on defence, defence of the employers interests.

 

It's a con .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Keith said:

OK,

Steam flyer touched on it,

People are the most important part of a business, finding, keeping and taking excellent care of them is what makes or breaks a business. 

simple.

Apparently you have limited experience with contemporary corporations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/20/2020 at 4:04 PM, B.J. Porter said:

Most people are 3-6 months away or less from complete financial ruin and homelessness in the event of a major catastrophe. Loss of job, loss of higher earning spouse, cancer, health issues, etc. etc.

The odds of that happening to anyone in the next 3-6 months are MUCH higher than the odds that they will suddenly be rocketed to the stratosphere of the multi-billionaires.

People really should vote accordingly. But Republicans do not.

Well, since lightning does on occasion strike twice in the same place, I'm going to be trying my hand at financial ruin...again, in 2013 when my wife had her double mastectomy the bills for the chemo & radiation forced me cash in my annuity, didn't want to, but I had no choice.

Next month the poor little thing goes in for a biopsy to check out the spots on her right lung, here we go again, finances are in a little better shape this time, mostly from belt tightening during my last stint at work, guess I'm about to find out if that's enough.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Weirdly last night I had one of those nightmares that you wake up from screaming, I actually dreamed I was struck by lightning!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Keith said:

Let me get your post colour right for you.

Oh, and by the way, what is the most difficult part of running a business? 

I think your question was rhetorical but to me, every business begins with a customer who is willing to pay money for something.  That service or object costs something to provide.  The challenge in any small business in particular is to find that customer and match it to some product or service that you can provide at a cost marginally less than what they're willing to pay.  Without that, you don't really have a business.  Typically, labor makes up the largest fraction of the 'cost' side of the business. 

Some 'government backed entities' have different reasons to exist and that simple rubric breaks down. 

Best wishes Animeproblem.  Tough news.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Keith said:

That's exactly the response I would expect from someone that's been a public employee all their life.

carry on.

What?

In forty years  I've worked in private enterprise, (Retail, Insurance, yuk), Hospitality (was the chef in a small restaurant) been equal partner in an IT company (and did the payroll,) worked in the public service and run my own small business for nearly 10 years as well as bringing up two kids more or less on my own for 10 years.

The trouble with people like you is you have your own little world and try to fit everyone else in it.:rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

You're median income 2016 was $32,000

If your "median" skill level pays only $32,000 you're being underpaid or under educated i'm guessing both.

My income is $60,000 PA for shelving books and driving a van :rolleyes:

A kitchen hand at Maccas gets $35,000 PA

Your Ford diesel F250 costs $180,000, mime costs 1/3 of that

:P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

You're median income 2016 was $32,000 INCORRECT

If your "median" skill level pays only $32,000 you're being underpaid or under educated i'm guessing both.

My income is $60,000 PA for shelving books and driving a van :rolleyes:

A kitchen hand at Maccas gets $35,000 PA

https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2019/mobile/median-usual-weekly-earnings-of-men-and-women-2010-to-2018.htm

US median income for men in 2016 was $47k.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, warbird said:
13 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

You're median income 2016 was $32,000

If your "median" skill level pays only $32,000 you're being underpaid or under educated i'm guessing both.

My income is $60,000 PA for shelving books and driving a van :rolleyes:

A kitchen hand at Maccas gets $35,000 PA

Your Ford diesel F250 costs $180,000, mime costs 1/3 of that



You don't see a lot of super duty trucks on the streets of Sydney...you can't afford trucks as penis extenders, they're mostly for working.

image.thumb.png.ed9fa2ac8a31b25d73f9cd48f32be8c1.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

You're median income 2016 was $32,000

If your "median" skill level pays only $32,000 you're being underpaid or under educated i'm guessing both.

My income is $60,000 PA for shelving books and driving a van :rolleyes:

A kitchen hand at Maccas gets $35,000 PA

Not just a little dishonest in your quoted median income for the US. But hey lying to get your point across seems to OK with you.

Good to know, not surprising but good to know.  

https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

Not just a little dishonest in your quoted median income for the US. But hey lying to get your point across seems to OK with you.

Good to know, not surprising but good to know.  

https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/

Do you read what you post?

Or are you expurgating?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, hasher said:

Do you read what you post?

Or are you expurgating?

Oh this?

What was the median household income?

Median household income was $63,030.00 in 2019.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

Oh this?

What was the median household income?

Median household income was $63,030.00 in 2019.

Short and get to the point.  I didn't mean to insult your height.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

Not just a little dishonest in your quoted median income for the US. But hey lying to get your point across seems to OK with you.

Good to know, not surprising but good to know.  

https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/

Because the thread morphed to living wage or salary(not plural/household) I supplied the US Gov median for a male ( one person) which is $51.5k .  I dont disagree with other sources but it is easier to use (and maybe agree on)a single consistent source. 

US Bureau of labor statistics 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, warbird said:

Because the thread morphed to living wage or salary(not plural/household) I supplied the US Gov median for a male ( one person) which is $51.5k .  I dont disagree with other sources but it is easier to use (and maybe agree on)a single consistent source. 

US Bureau of labor statistics 

 

Fair enough but still far greater that the "data" from SFB... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

Fair enough but still far greater that the "data" from SFB... 

Yes, and I call SFB on it in 171 with BLS linky:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, warbird said:

US median income for men in 2016 was $47k.

 

1 hour ago, warbird said:

I supplied the US Gov median for a male ( one person) which is $51.5k .

As accurate, consistent and valuable as all the other ignorant bullshit you post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

 

As accurate, consistent and valuable as all the other ignorant bullshit you post.

Well, since ot comes from US Bureau of labor statistics  ot must be wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

 

As accurate, consistent and valuable as all the other ignorant bullshit you post.

Well, since it comes from US Bureau of labor statistics  it must be wrong. See link post 171

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As expected, even when you are slapped in the face with it you fail to grasp it.

Lets try again and see if you can spot it - move your lips as you run your finger along the words - it might help.

9 hours ago, warbird said:

US median income for men in 2016 was $47k. 

7 hours ago, warbird said:

I supplied the US Gov median for a male ( one person) which is $51.5k . 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does the US bother collecting statistics anymore?
Donnie seems to be making it all up to suit .

Donnie gets his stats from Hannity cause Hannity is loyal and he’s got his back right.

Stand back and watch Hannity tell Donnie what he wants to hear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Navig8tor said:

Does the US bother collecting statistics anymore?
Donnie seems to be making it all up to suit .

Donnie gets his stats from Hannity cause Hannity is loyal and he’s got his back right.

Stand back and watch Hannity tell Donnie what he wants to hear.

Facts are so last year.  Maybe even a decade old.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

As expected, even when you are slapped in the face with it you fail to grasp it.

Lets try again and see if you can spot it - move your lips as you run your finger along the words - it might help.

 

IF you bothered to follow the thread and  actually looked at the link you might not look so stupid right now. Responding to SFB (the Boo abuser) 2016 median I responded with a BLS 47k number

 The latest BLS 2018 is 51.5k

Now instead of being a dick and actually checking the cite you wouldnt appear to be such a moron.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:rolleyes:

Those facts look suspiciously lefty to me.

Do your friends know?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/21/2020 at 1:20 PM, BravoBravo said:

the Corona virus just might re balance that ratio 

Dow futures down over 400 at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sean said:

Dow futures down over 400 at the moment.

Dow is down 445

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On January 21, 2020 at 5:19 PM, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

So, what is to be done with them?

I think it's called "birth control", but that requires forethought, so.... Then, there's the military; gets rid of those with the least potential for productivity.

On January 21, 2020 at 5:50 PM, warbird said:

Your liveable wage of $60k is more than $8k higher than the US median income. You are suggesting that way more than 1/2 US workers do not earn a living wage. Think about that:ph34r:

This is why Linclon was assasinated.

Govt. for the rich/white, of the rich/white, and by the rich/white, or, else!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites