Ed Lada

Doug From SV Seeker Fakes Head Injury

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2 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Mr Cleaner, can you perhaps also edit the SA site title?

Into something like Sailing Conformist , or Cruiser Cry Babies, or ScuttleBuggers or so.

 

Jeez, Fifi's galore around here...

 

 

 

I know, right?

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Just now, Autonomous said:

I know, right?

I suppose so, but you know what?

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On 1/21/2020 at 2:30 AM, Ed Lada said:

I guess it's Doug being Doug, I don't think he really cares if people are angry at him.  He's an independent kind of guy and has often said if you don't like what he is doing or don't like him, too bad.  Not too many people are that confident, so I kind of admire that.  On the other hand, I think there is an element of narcissism there. 

I watched his videos and read many his responses to comments. He's not a strong independent guy, rather those types don't devote their lives to youtube. No, he's a narcissist whose found an outlet where for once, he seems smart and resourceful to other fools. So he'll never admit that the "experts" could be right about all the design and fabrication mistakes he's making.

For example...  He trimmed the entire steel hull in foam insulation and wood paneling, screwed in place with [thousands] of screws.  How will he ever track down any leaks in the steel? And the first time he bumps a pier and dents the skin, those screws will put pinpoint holes in the steel that will be impossible to localize without tearing out all the paneling. He's fitting it out like a basement rec room constructed in the 80s, which is probably how how his house is constructed. But that doesn't have to float. But all those "experts" with things like "knowledge" and "experience" are just trying to keep an average guy down. right.

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12 minutes ago, Starboard!! said:

I watched his videos and read many his responses to comments. He's not a strong independent guy, rather those types don't devote their lives to youtube. No, he's a narcissist whose found an outlet where for once, he seems smart and resourceful to other fools. So he'll never admit that the "experts" could be right about all the design and fabrication mistakes he's making.

For example...  He trimmed the entire steel hull in foam insulation and wood paneling, screwed in place with [thousands] of screws.  How will he ever track down any leaks in the steel? And the first time he bumps a pier and dents the skin, those screws will put pinpoint holes in the steel that will be impossible to localize without tearing out all the paneling. He's fitting it out like a basement rec room constructed in the 80s, which is probably how how his house is constructed. But that doesn't have to float. But all those "experts" with things like "knowledge" and "experience" are just trying to keep an average guy down. right.

I'm so glad I haven't wasted any time on that guy.

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3 hours ago, Starboard!! said:

For example...  He trimmed the entire steel hull in foam insulation and wood paneling, screwed in place with [thousands] of screws.  How will he ever track down any leaks in the steel? And the first time he bumps a pier and dents the skin, those screws will put pinpoint holes in the steel that will be impossible to localize without tearing out all the paneling. He's fitting it out like a basement rec room constructed in the 80s, which is probably how how his house is constructed. But that doesn't have to float. But all those "experts" with things like "knowledge" and "experience" are just trying to keep an average guy down. right.

I haven't seen that episode but it doesn't sound like a problem to me.

What makes you think there will be any leaks in the hull, assuming it was welded properly?

As for the screws making holes through the hull plating when a bump happens, I'm willing to bet a lot of money that that will never happen.

I don't think you've ever had anything to do with well built steel boats, frankly. The lining in my hull is 2 layers of fire-resistant polystyrene against the steel with thin ply over that, screwed & glued in place. Steel boats rust from inside out as a rule; if you do a really good paint job on the steel then prevent water condensation on it the chances of rust are radically reduced and 50+ years life is the expectation.

FKT

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14 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I haven't seen that episode but it doesn't sound like a problem to me.

What makes you think there will be any leaks in the hull, assuming it was welded properly?

As for the screws making holes through the hull plating when a bump happens, I'm willing to bet a lot of money that that will never happen.

I don't think you've ever had anything to do with well built steel boats, frankly. The lining in my hull is 2 layers of fire-resistant polystyrene against the steel with thin ply over that, screwed & glued in place. Steel boats rust from inside out as a rule; if you do a really good paint job on the steel then prevent water condensation on it the chances of rust are radically reduced and 50+ years life is the expectation.

FKT

The "drainage boundary" inside a steel ship is what can kill it. The outside is always heavily maintained.

Some of the maritime academy ships (Patriot State, Empire State, etc from MA, NY etc) were put to death because not only the tank tops, but also the hull plating, in a band all the way around the join between tank top and shell were wasted to the point of needing replating. A 40 year old ship with roughly 1000 linear feet of plating renewal can be a problem.

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10 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

The "drainage boundary" inside a steel ship is what can kill it. The outside is always heavily maintained.

Some of the maritime academy ships (Patriot State, Empire State, etc from MA, NY etc) were put to death because not only the tank tops, but also the hull plating, in a band all the way around the join between tank top and shell were wasted to the point of needing replating. A 40 year old ship with roughly 1000 linear feet of plating renewal can be a problem.

Agree. I put a lot of paint on the inside of my hull then used the foil clad polystyrene as both insulation and vapour barrier. Plus the ply inner skin. I used to joke that I built 2 boats effectively, one inside the other. But I wanted to move any condensation point well away from the steel hull plate by preventing warm air from reaching the cold steel. Plus I have a well insulated boat - 60mm of polystyrene down to the cabin sole.

So what Doug has done in SV SEEKER doesn't sound out of line for a steel boat. Hell, I used a bradding gun to put a lot of my interior together.

FKT

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3 hours ago, fastyacht said:

I'm so glad I haven't wasted any time on that guy.

I was blissfully ignorant as well before seeing this thread. 

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Although I can understand why some amateurs build in steel… If I wanted to self build a boat, I would go for plywood unless my plan was to play with ice. Steel is much harder than people assume, on the other hand wood and epoxy is not that hard to get right

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2 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Steel boats rust from inside out as a rule; if you do a really good paint job on the steel then prevent water condensation on it the chances of rust are radically reduced and 50+ years life is the expectation.

FKT

I think thats a bit of a push..or it depends at best, Steal ships usually have a ten year life, this is extended by people being cheap or stupid regulatory shitshows like the jones act.  The life of a steal boat is very climate dependent, they do very well in medium to high latitudes but will go quick in the tropics without excellent maintenance.  For sailboats or smaller boats, as I think you pointed out in another thread, its a moot point as the scantlings for plate size are generally way over what they need to be and there would need to be a shitloaod of wasting to make a structural issue.  Like wood boats the problem with DIYS steal is the lack of nasty chemicals, like coal tar, red lead etc that worked very well in preserving inaccessible spaces.

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27 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

I think thats a bit of a push..or it depends at best, Steal ships usually have a ten year life, this is extended by people being cheap or stupid regulatory shitshows like the jones act.  The life of a steal boat is very climate dependent, they do very well in medium to high latitudes but will go quick in the tropics without excellent maintenance.  For sailboats or smaller boats, as I think you pointed out in another thread, its a moot point as the scantlings for plate size are generally way over what they need to be and there would need to be a shitloaod of wasting to make a structural issue.  Like wood boats the problem with DIYS steal is the lack of nasty chemicals, like coal tar, red lead etc that worked very well in preserving inaccessible spaces.

Seeker is liberally coated with coal tar inside and out, I think a few tons of the total weight of the boat is coal tar!  I am pretty sure that every steel surface on Seeker is covered with at least a couple of liberal coats of coal tar, including all of the nooks and crannies. 

Doug isn't stupid, he has done a bit of research and talked to knowledgeable people.  For example he has consulted quite a bit with a guy that is in the paint business that gave him a lot of good advice about marine coatings for steel and how to apply them.  It just that sometimes Doug thinks he knows better when he doesn't.  I don't think he appreciates what it's like on the open sea at all.  He has been on one or two brief sailing outings near shore in salt water and that's it.  I don't think he has much experience in fresh water sailing for that matter.

If you want to see a guy that is completely clueless about sail boats, check out SV Rusty Junk .

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1 hour ago, SASSAFRASS said:

I think thats a bit of a push..or it depends at best, Steal ships usually have a ten year life,

Umm, yeah - that explains why my old icebreaker is now 30 years old and just about to be pensioned off.

Want to tell me about a steel ship that has a HARDER life than an icebreaker?

The only way a steel yacht/small power boat would have a life as short as 10 years is if it was incredibly shoddily built in the first place and then had zero maintenance. A friend of mine has had his second boat - 45' steel - sitting on one of my moorings, no maintenance done in 4 years now (working on the other boat). The paint is oxidised and there are a few rust blooms where the paint has chipped. That's it. The interior is fine.

As for Panoramix' comments re steel & ply, it all depends. Personally I *HATE* working with fibreglass & epoxy, not like the epoxy isn't toxic after all. And the dust is worse than what you get from grinding steel - the particles can be a lot smaller for starters. I have 2 friends who built Benford BADGER designs so I've plenty of second-hand experience to draw on.

You can build truly excellent boats from ply/epoxy, not as strong or abrasion resistant as steel, but structurally more than sufficient. I just happen to hate working with those materials.

Plus when you get to the size that Doug is building - ply/epoxy for a 74' boat? Really?

FKT

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Ice breakers were built like ww2 battleships not really a realistic comparison for hull material, the fact there are only a handful active internationally attests to the expense. Shell had to get a exemption to bring a Finn flagged one into AK because there were no other options, they still put a hole in it which was pretty funny.  The USCG is down to one now I think for who knows why. From new build at ten years plus of service the costs start going up exponentially which is why most ships go into used car mode and begin their shuffle to the eventual beach in India. Yes a well maintained steal hull will last along time but no moreso than any other material. Well maybe ferro doesn't stack up...

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I suprising number of working fishboats of 70 to 90 feet were built using Simpson MarinePly and epoxy. (Remember the ads in WoodenBoat?). Haha.

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54 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Ice breakers were built like ww2 battleships not really a realistic comparison for hull material, the fact there are only a handful active internationally attests to the expense. Shell had to get a exemption to bring a Finn flagged one into AK because there were no other options, they still put a hole in it which was pretty funny.  The USCG is down to one now I think for who knows why. From new build at ten years plus of service the costs start going up exponentially which is why most ships go into used car mode and begin their shuffle to the eventual beach in India. Yes a well maintained steal hull will last along time but no moreso than any other material. Well maybe ferro doesn't stack up...

10 years is NOT the design life of ANY steel ship. Much longer. Much. Go look at any working tug. It ain't 10 years. No shipowner prefers to throw away a ship at 10 years. 30 years is more typical for a calculated life.

Don't confuse market obsolescence with design life. Two different things. Many ships get scrapped because the market took their raison d'etre away. The flip side of obsolescence is extended life. Many boats out there like that. And no, it isn't merely the Jones Act doing that (though that had much to do with the long life of single hull US flagged tankers). We have numerous U.S. yards actively building tugs and barges, yet there are many 50 year olds of both types.

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1 hour ago, Ed Lada said:

Seeker is liberally coated with coal tar inside and out, I think a few tons of the total weight of the boat is coal tar!  I am pretty sure that every steel surface on Seeker is covered with at least a couple of liberal coats of coal tar, including all of the nooks and crannies. 

Doug isn't stupid, he has done a bit of research and talked to knowledgeable people.  For example he has consulted quite a bit with a guy that is in the paint business that gave him a lot of good advice about marine coatings for steel and how to apply them.  It just that sometimes Doug thinks he knows better when he doesn't.  I don't think he appreciates what it's like on the open sea at all.  He has been on one or two brief sailing outings near shore in salt water and that's it.  I don't think he has much experience in fresh water sailing for that matter.

If you want to see a guy that is completely clueless about sail boats, check out SV Rusty Junk .

Here's some humorous youtube comments on Rusty Junk. Note that one of the enablers is none other than Doug at Seeker. The enablers fight valiantly against the skeptics. Hilarious.

image.thumb.png.c9665a744481ef965ed5f8e85c45fdd9.png

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1 hour ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Ice breakers were built like ww2 battleships not really a realistic comparison for hull material, the fact there are only a handful active internationally attests to the expense. Shell had to get a exemption to bring a Finn flagged one into AK because there were no other options, they still put a hole in it which was pretty funny.  The USCG is down to one now I think for who knows why. From new build at ten years plus of service the costs start going up exponentially which is why most ships go into used car mode and begin their shuffle to the eventual beach in India. Yes a well maintained steal hull will last along time but no moreso than any other material. Well maybe ferro doesn't stack up...

Most tankers, container ships, bulk carriers and roll on roll off carriers have life expectancies beyond 25 years. And these are ships that see a dry dock possibly one week every 50-100. 

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3 hours ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Ice breakers were built like ww2 battleships not really a realistic comparison for hull material, the fact there are only a handful active internationally attests to the expense.

True but how about fishing vessels?

Saxon Onward, Saxon Progress and a 3rd one I forget came out here in the late 1970's to do bottom trawling. At least 2 of those Saxon FFV's are still in service and they were far from new when they arrived.

A fishing vessel gets a really hard life. They looked like rusty POS's 30+ years ago when I was doing some work with them and they still look like rusty POS's today. They've never been maintained to the standard we used to do for our vessels.

Steel vessels have a *much* longer life than you claim. 10 years is ridiculous. I personally know of a steel yacht more than 100 years old & still sailing.

FKT

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3 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Here's some humorous youtube comments on Rusty Junk. Note that one of the enablers is none other than Doug at Seeker. The enablers fight valiantly against the skeptics. Hilarious.

image.thumb.png.c9665a744481ef965ed5f8e85c45fdd9.png

I just tried watching the 2 latest eps of Rusty Junk. Fuck me that was painful. Made it through ep35 shaking my head, then stopped ep34 where he's showing the random assortment of bolts he found on the side of the road that are goingto be used to attach the keel. I bet Mr Darwin can't wait to reach out and grab this one if he ever hits the water.

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Ok semantics on "life span" In Commercial service 0-10 years baring catstrofic equipment failure,  painting and scheduled service and maintenance is it.  Push it out to 15 if its well taken care of.  At that point the process of replacing the boat begins one piece at a time which can go on forever if you are willing to pay for it. There are 100 year old wood boats still working that probably don't have a stick of original wood, my point being neither is a forever material.  Commercial fishing vessels definitely not a great example.

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2 hours ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Ok semantics on "life span" In Commercial service 0-10 years baring catstrofic equipment failure,  painting and scheduled service and maintenance is it.  Push it out to 15 if its well taken care of.  At that point the process of replacing the boat begins one piece at a time which can go on forever if you are willing to pay for it. There are 100 year old wood boats still working that probably don't have a stick of original wood, my point being neither is a forever material.  Commercial fishing vessels definitely not a great example.

If this  lifespan discussion started, regarding steel yachts.

FKT is dead right .

Life span is certainly lengthy if designed and built correctly.

Steel yachts are popular in Aus.

You can easily identify the ones built by people who know the material.

The good ones have features such as :

ZERO external wood. ( traps moisture)

NO through bolts in steel structure. ( drill and tap Stainless pads for fittings )

ALL  edges finished in S/S.

NO moisture / corrosion traps in anchor lockers  (stainless).

 

etc etc.

That being said,  owners must live by the mantra "Rust Never Sleeps"

so regular upkeep is essential.

 

PS

Recently came across 2 commercial fishing boats in the 20 meter range built similar to the above fishing out of Portland Vic and the other Darwin NT.

Both 30 plus years old. 

Both immaculate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

That being said,  owners must live by the mantra "Rust Never Sleeps"

so regular upkeep is essential.

How true. I can see a number of small spots where either I didn't get enough epoxy on in the first place or I've chipped the paint over the last 12 months. Boat is coming out of the water sometime in the next 6 weeks, I'll touch up all those spots then plus fit another deck penetration or 2 where a year's use has shown they'd be useful.

As for anything more than 10 years old needing ongoing & increasing maintenance - well, duh. Everything does.

FKT

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12 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

As for Panoramix' comments re steel & ply, it all depends. Personally I *HATE* working with fibreglass & epoxy, not like the epoxy isn't toxic after all. And the dust is worse than what you get from grinding steel - the particles can be a lot smaller for starters. I have 2 friends who built Benford BADGER designs so I've plenty of second-hand experience to draw on.

You can build truly excellent boats from ply/epoxy, not as strong or abrasion resistant as steel, but structurally more than sufficient. I just happen to hate working with those materials.

Plus when you get to the size that Doug is building - ply/epoxy for a 74' boat? Really?

FKT

I think that it comes down to you comfort zone. Epoxy is nasty but wood dust shouldn't be an issue if you work cleanly. I just think that I could build a wooden boat right whereas steel is more of a specialist job than most people assume. You can do big boats in wood but then strip planking is probably a better option. If I were to build a boat I would build it as small as possible, I can't imagine "needing" more than 45 feet, and that would be an absolute maximum, a 35 feet boat can do a lot!

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12 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Here's some humorous youtube comments on Rusty Junk. Note that one of the enablers is none other than Doug at Seeker. The enablers fight valiantly against the skeptics. Hilarious.

image.thumb.png.c9665a744481ef965ed5f8e85c45fdd9.png

I think I know who wrote that first comment.  :lol:

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On 1/21/2020 at 1:51 AM, Ed Lada said:

Did you watch the episode where they weigh the boat in October?  They are already quite a ways over the original estimate of the weight of 50 tons and they keep on adding more.  The actual weight in the video is 55.5 tons.  They now estimate the fully loaded weight will be a little below 70 tons.  I hope the waterline is below the portholes anyway.

 

Uhhh, calculating displacement is calculating the location of the waterline.

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I missed the drama before it was taken down, but I saw an update with a clip from the "explosion" and it was obviously a joke. The actor was pointing his cell phone all over dramatically taking his selfie video while being perfectly framed in a professional camera shot. Not too hard to see something was up, then you add in that they had several angles of the exterior during the "explosion." 

It's an entertaining build with a lot of goofiness and a lot of successful choices and a lot of marginal ones. The tankage solotions are really good, the deck house solutions are really good, the twin keel origami finally has a real purpose (to avoid what would have been a very challenging hull rollover and to have a mudskipper dryout hull) the anchors looked good, and the prop was an impressive project, but the tender was a disaster of not understanding hull design or chine walking or the kind of power required by that big pump, and all the woodworking with the exception of the floor panels is pretty pathetic and finally I don't think the bus engine is going to cut it for long.

I'm looking forward to the "science" they conduct once that beast is launched and the "sailing." Doug is a total newb so it will be fun to see the learning curve of him operating Seeker, but I'll bet he does fine, after a few more dramas.

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3 minutes ago, lasal said:

I missed the drama before it was taken down, but I saw an update with a clip from the "explosion" and it was obviously a joke. The actor was pointing his cell phone all over dramatically taking his selfie video while being perfectly framed in a professional camera shot. Not too hard to see something was up, then you add in that they had several angles of the exterior during the "explosion." 

yeah on the second viewing i started to figure it out. When the 2nd video came out with the 2nd camera angle i knew it was a joke, but that was 8 hours later and the damage was already done. I didnt get all upset like a lot of people did, but definitely found it in poor taste.

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10 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

@SASSAFRASS , you are so mistaken it's not even funny. It's hilarious!

Even canned food last longer in my bilge. :)

 

Certainly not the first time, or last, that someone has said I'm full is shit.....

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4 minutes ago, Mark Set said:

yeah on the second viewing i started to figure it out. When the 2nd video came out with the 2nd camera angle i knew it was a joke, but that was 8 hours later and the damage was already done. I didnt get all upset like a lot of people did, but definitely found it in poor taste.

It must have been pretty convincing. And, that is in bad taste to continue the brain damage narrative overnight. My reaction would have been similar to many here. Doug is kind of a dick.

They should put a propane sniffer in that boat asap if there isn't one.

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1 hour ago, lasal said:

Uhhh, calculating displacement is calculating the location of the waterline.

I'm not sure what you are saying.

My point was that Doug really doesn't know the displacement yet therefore he doesn't know where the waterline will be.  It isn't like he has made a formal weight study or even calculated the weight as he has built the boat.  And he's still operating on a wing and a prayer.  They will probably have a rough estimate of where the waterline will be, but I don't see how they can calculate it with any accuracy with the way they regard weight at the moment.  I don't know how much 5 tons either way will effect the boat.

Apparently the original weight of the vessel was to be between 50 and 55 tons, I don't want to try to find that info in all of the videos.  So the portholes were placed to be x amount above the waterline in the original plan.  The water line has moved from the location in the original plans obviously.  He got the plans from some naval architect and the sail-plan was calculated for that displacement as well.  But Doug kept on adding things to the boat often commenting in the videos that it didn't matter, they had plenty of wiggle room.  I remember when they decided to add some internal frames that weren't in the original plan, Doug said something about people commenting on the extra weight and he basically said it wouldn't matter.  I think you can see in that video that Doug was surprised at the actual weight they have now, and with an estimate of additional equipment and cargo, the boat will be quite a bit heavier than they anticipated.  Which adds to the concerns that several people have made here about the engine and the sail area being sufficient. 

I am no naval architect or engineer but I have a basic understanding of the subject and don't think anything I have said is out of line.  If I am wrong, please let me know so I can learn more.

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Doug was very surprised with the figure they got when they weighed the boat, and that was before they put on the equipment and finished out the interior. Steel is heavy, who knew?

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5 minutes ago, Mark Set said:

Doug was very surprised with the figure they got when they weighed the boat, and that was before they put on the equipment and finished out the interior. Steel is heavy, who knew?

let me guess, substituted heavier plate than design for strenght? 5mm is good, 6mm must be better?

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1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

let me guess, substituted heavier plate than design for strenght? 5mm is good, 6mm must be better?

ha ha ha! he even mentioned in the video he bumped it up to 3/8" plate on the bottom, 9.5mm. A least he wont have to worry about torpedos!

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4 minutes ago, Mark Set said:

Doug was very surprised with the figure they got when they weighed the boat, and that was before they put on the equipment and finished out the interior. Steel is heavy, who knew?

Wait until he finds out the ocean is full of waves.  Even big ones sometimes!

He'll know the boat is overweight when one or both of the keels give way while it's still in his front yard.  it's known as the Canary in the Keel Displacement Measuring Method (CITKDMM).  Also referred to as "The boat ain't overweight until the fat bird sings" method.

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3 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

I'm not sure what you are saying.

My point was that Doug really doesn't know the displacement yet therefore he doesn't know where the waterline will be.  It isn't like he has made a formal weight study or even calculated the weight as he has built the boat.  And he's still operating on a wing and a prayer.  They will probably have a rough estimate of where the waterline will be, but I don't see how they can calculate it with any accuracy with the way they regard weight at the moment.  I don't know how much 5 tons either way will effect the boat.

Apparently the original weight of the vessel was to be between 50 and 55 tons, I don't want to try to find that info in all of the videos.  So the portholes were placed to be x amount above the waterline in the original plan.  The water line has moved from the location in the original plans obviously.  He got the plans from some naval architect and the sail-plan was calculated for that displacement as well.  But Doug kept on adding things to the boat often commenting in the videos that it didn't matter, they had plenty of wiggle room.  I remember when they decided to add some internal frames that weren't in the original plan, Doug said something about people commenting on the extra weight and he basically said it wouldn't matter.  I think you can see in that video that Doug was surprised at the actual weight they have now, and with an estimate of additional equipment and cargo, the boat will be quite a bit heavier than they anticipated.  Which adds to the concerns that several people have made here about the engine and the sail area being sufficient. 

I am no naval architect or engineer but I have a basic understanding of the subject and don't think anything I have said is out of line.  If I am wrong, please let me know so I can learn more.

Nothing you said was out of line, I was just commenting that the waterline is the function of displacement so there is no mystery about its location beyond how level it is or not. Assuming the hull is modeled in cad, you can play with every assumption and instantly see where the waterline will be.

However, the tender was a prime example of ignoring waterline while calculating displacement. That ridiculous deep V was added to fit the drive train and it chine walked at zero MPH! In other words, it just fell over. Then they fixed that by adding tri hulls. Some good ideas and good intentions, but sometimes the hacker method ends up in a cluster. The hacker approach is always an experiment, so be ready for a fail now and then. I would rebuild it and make it a lot lighter, especially since it's hung from davits at the stern, make it a lot faster, and make the interior a lot friendlier for people. In fact, they should rethink the use case for a tender, a boat like Seeker should probably have a couple of RIBs and maybe a jetski :).

 

 

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56 minutes ago, lasal said:

Nothing you said was out of line, I was just commenting that the waterline is the function of displacement so there is no mystery about its location beyond how level it is or not. Assuming the hull is modeled in cad, you can play with every assumption and instantly see where the waterline will be.

However, the tender was a prime example of ignoring waterline while calculating displacement. That ridiculous deep V was added to fit the drive train and it chine walked at zero MPH! In other words, it just fell over. Then they fixed that by adding tri hulls. Some good ideas and good intentions, but sometimes the hacker method ends up in a cluster. The hacker approach is always an experiment, so be ready for a fail now and then. I would rebuild it and make it a lot lighter, especially since it's hung from davits at the stern, make it a lot faster, and make the interior a lot friendlier for people. In fact, they should rethink the use case for a tender, a boat like Seeker should probably have a couple of RIBs and maybe a jetski :).

 

 

They certainly could have done a better job on the tender.  Here is the video where they have a model of the tender, some interesting discussion about increasing the deadrise.   Apparently the tender was designed by the same guy that drew the plans for Seeker.  If you haven't seen this video, it's interesting how the tender became what it did before the tri-hull mod. 

Apparently, there might be CAD drawings of Seeker too.  But I don't ever remember Doug referring to them. But my memory sucks anymore, so who knows.

 

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1 hour ago, lasal said:

In fact, they should rethink the use case for a tender, a boat like Seeker should probably have a couple of RIBs and maybe a jetski :).

There's no need for language like *that*!!! Jet ski indeed!

FKT

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21 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Umm, yeah - that explains why my old icebreaker is now 30 years old and just about to be pensioned off.

Icebreaker CCGS Pierre Raddison - 43 years,  Icebreaker CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent - 53 years (only a few months younger than me!)

BC Ferries - Queen of New Westminster - 55 years old and still in service.   We Canadians are a thrifty lot. i.e. cheap

The idea that a steel ship will only last 10 years is frankly totally wrong.  Typical freighters/tankers are often scrapped around 25-30 years but many live much longer.

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1 hour ago, lasal said:

Nothing you said was out of line, I was just commenting that the waterline is the function of displacement so there is no mystery about its location beyond how level it is or not. Assuming the hull is modeled in cad, you can play with every assumption and instantly see where the waterline will be.

However, the tender was a prime example of ignoring waterline while calculating displacement. That ridiculous deep V was added to fit the drive train and it chine walked at zero MPH! In other words, it just fell over. Then they fixed that by adding tri hulls. Some good ideas and good intentions, but sometimes the hacker method ends up in a cluster. The hacker approach is always an experiment, so be ready for a fail now and then. I would rebuild it and make it a lot lighter, especially since it's hung from davits at the stern, make it a lot faster, and make the interior a lot friendlier for people. In fact, they should rethink the use case for a tender, a boat like Seeker should probably have a couple of RIBs and maybe a jetski :).

 

 

Oh God. I'm glad I didn't Watch ALL of that! Just hte beginning was enough (a year ago?) to be, "I'd rather watch NASCAR crashes or something."

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3 hours ago, lasal said:

Nothing you said was out of line, I was just commenting that the waterline is the function of displacement so there is no mystery about its location beyond how level it is or not. Assuming the hull is modeled in cad, you can play with every assumption and instantly see where the waterline will be.

<SNIP>

 

The above is patently untrue. CAD can tell you displacement for a given waterline but unless you have weighed every piece going into the hull and know its CG, or have enough intuition such as someone like Bob to guesstimate small items, you have no idea whee that waterline will end up.

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20 minutes ago, Somebody Else said:

As soon as I saw the word "origami" in the original post, I left the thread.

 

OMG, I don't have the intestinal fortitude to go back and look at the vids of him and that first poor woman screwing around with the kuge pieces of steel plate.

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2 hours ago, Zonker said:

Icebreaker CCGS Pierre Raddison - 43 years,  Icebreaker CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent - 53 years (only a few months younger than me!)

BC Ferries - Queen of New Westminster - 55 years old and still in service.   We Canadians are a thrifty lot. i.e. cheap

The idea that a steel ship will only last 10 years is frankly totally wrong.  Typical freighters/tankers are often scrapped around 25-30 years but many live much longer.

CCGS Bartlett, Tanu and Vector were all launched in the 60s and still in service today. 

 

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1 hour ago, Monkey Butler said:

The above is patently untrue. CAD can tell you displacement for a given waterline but unless you have weighed every piece going into the hull and know its CG, or have enough intuition such as someone like Bob to guesstimate small items, you have no idea whee that waterline will end up.

Well, yes and no monkey Butler. That's why I mentioned angle. The waterline is a fixed plane, at least on Earth. So you do know where it will end up given displacement. However, without a weight study, you don't know exactly which way is up.

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3 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Oh God. I'm glad I didn't Watch ALL of that! Just hte beginning was enough (a year ago?) to be, "I'd rather watch NASCAR crashes or something."

The dinghy project started with promise but ended with a cringe. I hope they consider a do-over.

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Seems obvious now that a lot of you guys haven’t followed this build thru the years.   You’re hollering in the woods.  
 

Doug has always skewered “experts” in any/all phases of the project.  He brings in a fair # of ‘pros’ to sort the rough parts out.  And he’ll battle with them to test their self-proclaimed expertise.   He’s a ball buster with big dreams and some real chops in many of the diff aspects.

He’s throwing his $$ & time into this and pretty much keeps reminding us that ‘the journey’ is its own reward. Really doesn’t give two turds about opinions and, challenges everyone with “what did you make today?”

And remember, SV Seeker will be a research vessel, without charge, for people/projects who need a platform to get themselves established.  A worthy effort this is and, he should be recognized for what he’s attempting here.   

So really, what  DID you make today?

 

Go Doug.

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2 minutes ago, blunderfull said:

Seems obvious now that a lot of you guys haven’t followed this build thru the years.   You’re hollering in the woods.  
 

Doug has always skewered “experts” in any/all phases of the project.  He brings in a fair # of ‘pros’ in to sort the rough parts out.  And he’ll battle with them to test their self-proclaimed expertise.   He’s a ball buster with big dreams and some real chops in many of the diff aspects.

He’s throwing his $$ & time into this and pretty much keeps reminding us that ‘the journey’ is its own reward. Really doesn’t give two turds about opinions and, challenges everyone with “what did you make today?”
 

So really, what  DID you make today?

 

Go Doug.

Um, let's see. A bunch of ships and boats. That actually earn money...

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4 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

They certainly could have done a better job on the tender.  Here is the video where they have a model of the tender, some interesting discussion about increasing the deadrise.   Apparently the tender was designed by the same guy that drew the plans for Seeker.  If you haven't seen this video, it's interesting how the tender became what it did before the tri-hull mod. 

Apparently, there might be CAD drawings of Seeker too.  But I don't ever remember Doug referring to them. But my memory sucks anymore, so who knows.

 

When they weighed the boat I think they took some points off the hull which I assumed was to locate in cad. I'll bet he does a careful weight study eventually. I think, while he is likely a bit nervous about actually launching, Doug is also still in the scientific truth based world so he will want to take steps to be sure his waterline is at least close.

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8 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Um, let's see. A bunch of ships and boats. That actually earn money...

Great. Well done.  And he’s creating a floating classroom/research environment.  No commercial impetus - he’s funding the project.  
 

More power to him.

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I've known a lot of guys like Doug, competent assholes. Life's to short to work with, or watch, assholes no matter how competent they may be.

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40 minutes ago, lasal said:

Well, yes and no monkey Butler. That's why I mentioned angle. The waterline is a fixed plane, at least on Earth. So you do know where it will end up given displacement. However, without a weight study, you don't know exactly which way is up.

I not sure I get your reasoning.

What is "the Angle"?

The waterline is not a fixed plane. It is line drawn based on known weights, their centers of gravity, and their distribution about an arm about the center of buoyancy.

In Seekers case there is no weight study. He's throwing tons of steel and paint and wood and foam and machinery and sofas and pipes and fluids and tools and figureheads and potties and ... well you get the idea into a shell.

I think what you're saying is Doug pulled a weight out of his ass, drew a line that encompassed a displacement equal to his weight guesstimate, and made it so that the boat "sat" at an aesthetic level. Do you mean the "angle" is that at some point he's going to come up facing the MTI, moment to trim one inch, and find that he has too much weight fore or aft of where he thinks he put it and the boat may float bow high or low?  

I think that may be the least of is problems. Once he adds some telephone poles and junk rig and the deckhouse to the overweight pig he might find he has a disconcerting roll period.

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Have we ever seen a photo of Fa Kiew's boat?

Sounds pretty cool.  And well maintained.

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6 hours ago, Monkey Butler said:

I not sure I get your reasoning.

What is "the Angle"?

The waterline is not a fixed plane. It is line drawn based on known weights, their centers of gravity, and their distribution about an arm about the center of buoyancy.

In Seekers case there is no weight study. He's throwing tons of steel and paint and wood and foam and machinery and sofas and pipes and fluids and tools and figureheads and potties and ... well you get the idea into a shell.

I think what you're saying is Doug pulled a weight out of his ass, drew a line that encompassed a displacement equal to his weight guesstimate, and made it so that the boat "sat" at an aesthetic level. Do you mean the "angle" is that at some point he's going to come up facing the MTI, moment to trim one inch, and find that he has too much weight fore or aft of where he thinks he put it and the boat may float bow high or low?  

I think that may be the least of is problems. Once he adds some telephone poles and junk rig and the deckhouse to the overweight pig he might find he has a disconcerting roll period.

Exactly.

Doug has put a lot of time and effort into his dream.  he has creatively solved a lot of problems, taken a lot of advice and ideas from others and done it all on a relatively low budget.  He has a good idea of the big picture of what he wants the boat to do.  But I think he has lost himself in the myriad of details, adding this or that without really considering the implications. As evidenced at his surprise when they actually weighed the boat.  As they say the devil is in the details.  The weight of the steel masts and the very heavy sails and steel pipe battens is considerable.  It will be very interesting to see what happens when the boat is actually in the water.

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4 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

Doug has put a lot of time and effort into his dream.  he has creatively solved a lot of problems...

Which underlines the fundamental error: Completely unnecessary time and effort

If he wanted to go sailing he should have bought an existing boat. There are many many available to suit his purpose.

If he wanted to build a boat he should have bought or commissioned some complete plans for something with a successful lineage from a proper designer.

If he wanted to design, build and then sail a boat he should have had much greater education, experience and apprenticeship in all the matters. A boat such as his ancient design requires ZERO new ideas or techniques. There are no issues with steel bathtub boats that were not elegantly and completely solved a century ago by people far more experienced that Doug.

But did he do any of that? No. He thinks himself so smart he could figure it out along the way. Doug will never go sailing. The unfinished hulk will rust away after changing hands between a series of inexperienced underfunded dreamers. Quite possibly without ever floating. Joining the Navy of Broken Dreams.

Maybe he just wanted more and more internet fame. Success!

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13 hours ago, blunderfull said:

Great. Well done.  And he’s creating a floating classroom/research environment.  No commercial impetus - he’s funding the project.  
 

More power to him.

To the part I bolded, um, well, okaaaaay, whatever. That's being very generous with the term "research." The floating part remains to be seen. So far it looks like a lot of free labor for a fool's errand,

To the part I italicized well, commercial impetus is in fact EXACTLY what he is doing--but in an unfair way! He gets free labor to work on his fool's errand and then he collects income from youtube. I call that commercial.

I have learned far more in my commercial life than in my non-commercial. I get paid to learn. I'm sure you do, too. What I see here is people being taken advantage of. They will get zero creditable commercial skills. What, on your resume, "hey, I was a gopher for this youtube guy." That's not valuable to a shipyard. What's valuable is you have ABS/LR/DNV welding certification, you have experience working in an ISO 9001 shop, etc....not working in someone's garage under the dereliction of an amateur horse's ass. OK that last comment was uncalled for. But I couldn't help myself.

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19 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

Which underlines the fundamental error: Completely unnecessary time and effort

If he wanted to go sailing he should have bought an existing boat. There are many many available to suit his purpose.

If he wanted to build a boat he should have bought or commissioned some complete plans for something with a successful lineage from a proper designer.

If he wanted to design, build and then sail a boat he should have had much greater education, experience and apprenticeship in all the matters. A boat such as his ancient design requires ZERO new ideas or techniques. There are no issues with steel bathtub boats that were not elegantly and completely solved a century ago by people far more experienced that Doug.

But did he do any of that? No. He thinks himself so smart he could figure it out along the way. Doug will never go sailing. The unfinished hulk will rust away after changing hands between a series of inexperienced underfunded dreamers. Quite possibly without ever floating. Joining the Navy of Broken Dreams.

Maybe he just wanted more and more internet fame. Success!

I think he will finish the boat, but beyond that it's questionable.  In the latest video, they are fitting out the wheelhouse which also houses the galley.  They think they are planning a house kitchen although they do plan on gimbals for the stove.  One little wave and somebody will end up with their head in a soup pot, there aren't handholds anywhere.

I agree completely that he should have bought plans for a real boat.  I think he was captivated by the idea of origami and no frames.  But he ended up putting in some halfassed frames anyway.

As far as unnecessary time and effort, he's having fun, the people helping have fun, nobody is complaining.  Everybody needs a hobby.

He did build a wood submarine and an aluminum one, so he has had some success!  The wood one actually made it underwater, the aluminum one was on the surface but I don't know if it ever made it underwater.  He sold it.

 

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Fastyachte has a pretty valid point.  There seems to be a predominant feature with some of the DIYSers be it hubris or what I don't know, but the idea of somehow sticking it to the man or doing something for a great deal or somehow well below the normal engineered cost takes over as the driving force behind all things in the project.  In some instances there are genuine pearls of ingenuity but unfortunately a lot of the times you get things that "look" like the desired end result but are lacking the engineering and process to ensure they are actually that.  I've spent alot of time on ship repair in mostly classed boats and even in that things are missed all the time.  Just dealt with below water line broken frames and a bad bulkhead that were part of a fire refit and albeit a minor detail this particular transition from existing to refit never made it too anyones attention.  The shipyard used accepted practices to put it together but it was obviously not enough.  All parts of a vessel are working in tandem and it may never see the stresses that make this crucial, but when it does if several of those companets are for looks only you can end up with a cascading disaster. As I said on the first post on this its messed up because he has a following of people paying him money good or bad and he is basically throwing his poo at them. 

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22 minutes ago, Latadjust said:

Any over/under's on how long till this "boat" touches water? What's left to do? 

Well...what is the homebuild rule? If Doug thinks he is 90% done then only 90% remains?

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Doug update:

Still chugging away.  Go Doug.

This plumbing adventure is in my ballpark.  Wished the pool designer/builder of my current project had spent half the time Doug did on layout & materials discussion.

Pool in question on a bluff with 150 deg ocean view. Immense yard, fountains (8), mini-golf area, on and on.   The pool?   Embarassing mess.  Forgetting the simple lack of engineering kno-how, the equipment is stacked up on top of itself with access for maintenance barely possible. 
 

 A typical one-hour swap out of main pump motor took three hours +.  And the 3 hp motor is screaming loud on slab 6 feet from property fence.   Throwing 74 dbs at 10’ -  by code in most places 70 is max.  Been like this for years.  Now I’m on the job building sound box, rubber pads, leak survey entire pool to eliminate all air in lines etc.  Lots to fix here.  Money hole.

Ballpark this house in $10 mill area.   Comes complete with nice looking, shoddily built pool with never ending ‘fix-its’ that run in the thousands of dollars.   May post pics if my arms get slashed any more diving headfirst into a jungle of pipe with my trusty 9/16” ratcheting box end wrench.

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You do you but as far as I'm concerned, fuck Doug.

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1 hour ago, blunderfull said:

Doug update:

 

Hull ceiling of closet liner.

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31 minutes ago, IStream said:

You do you but as far as I'm concerned, fuck Doug.

I really shouldn’t be surprised in 2020, there are ppl who cant wait to lineup to fluff mediocre conartists who build Noah’s arks on solid ground 

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On 1/24/2020 at 5:49 PM, Leeroy Jenkins said:

CCGS Bartlett, Tanu and Vector were all launched in the 60s and still in service today. 

 

Ah the mighty Tanu! Back when commercial fishing was fun!!

 

 

Tanu.jpg

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Imagine being stuck on a boat with this guy,   one disobeyed order from full retard/captain queeg

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On 1/21/2020 at 3:51 PM, Ed Lada said:

Did you watch the episode where they weigh the boat in October?  They are already quite a ways over the original estimate of the weight of 50 tons and they keep on adding more.  The actual weight in the video is 55.5 tons.  They now estimate the fully loaded weight will be a little below 70 tons.  I hope the waterline is below the portholes anyway.

 

 

This is why I would not build a boat this way.

On 1/21/2020 at 7:08 PM, Ed Lada said:

Yes, I agree with you.  Doug is amazingly creative, and does many things without spending a lot of money.  But sometimes I don't think he understand how hostile the marine environment is and cheap won't work.  But I think many of his solutions are adequate.  

He apparently bough the plans from a marine architect, but I am not sure who.  And Doug being Doug might have made some deviations from the plans.  As I said in the earlier post, the boat was designed to be 50 tons gross weight.  I share your concerns about the strength, origami in that size is a bit different than a much smaller craft. The frames they added inside are far from adequate.  There are several bulkheads but I'm not sure that they are enough.  There is quite a bit of lead down in the bilges, I forgot how many tons.  They melted the lead and poured it directly in.

Barring a 'real' devastating accident, I think the boat will make it to the river in Oklahoma.  Whether it will survive the trip to the mouth of the Mississippi will be a good test.  If it actually gets out into the open ocean will be real interesting to see what happens.  He used school bus windows in the pilot house and people commented on the strength, or rather lack of strength.  Doug said if a wave breaks a couple of windows, it's no big deal they will just replace them.  OK then.

I have been hooked on the videos for some time, I will keep watching as long as they make them, I want to see how it all works out.

Agreed. I admire Doug greatly for taking on such a project. I love how he solves some of the problems, but without basic calcs, its hard to know how it will do in blue water. To build the boat and then try to get into cad is backwards, and without knowing where the CofG is, it might sit at some odd angle even if he gets the waterline right. Launch day will be revealing. I cross my fingers for him.

I think he has been building and making videos so long he has lost a little direction.

 

 

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I’m starting to think you like CAD.

And steel 

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41 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I’m starting to think you like CAD.

And steel 

and hopefully, once the trolls disperse, we can have some input from members that have some experience in this regards, for now im wading through the graffiti and inane responses

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This isn't going to end well.

Well, it's been a while since we had one, so maybe it will be entertaining for a bit.

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Doug is classic " I know enough to build a boat ".In the short section of that video I watched there were huge expanses of unsupported hull plate in bow or stern. He also said they didn't build the boat level. Who does that? 

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2 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Doug is classic " I know enough to build a boat ".In the short section of that video I watched there were huge expanses of unsupported hull plate in bow or stern. He also said they didn't build the boat level. Who does that? 

That channel certainly has its share of disciplines 1) either landlocked living vicariously imagining the impossible or 2) popcorn shitshow. 
 

Before his fake head injury joke - I hadn’t heard of him. 

There this other guy from Northern Europe? I think Danish who has been building/tearing down/rebuilding his boat for years & at first it was interesting until you realize there’s probably some mental health challenges going on re treating blisters/anti fouling a boat where you’ve left a waterlogged bilge and leaking water tank for years of ownership (while on the hard!). 

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This thread popped up.. I remembered I used to watch this channel until that stunt.  Should I catch up on what I missed? 

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43 minutes ago, sailak said:

This thread popped up.. I remembered I used to watch this channel until that stunt.  Should I catch up on what I missed? 

I did the same.    I rely on this SA lot of misfits to stay informed on many arcane topics.  

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Brupeg over Seeker anyday. 
 

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Bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupeg gday mate... He ran out of material worth posting a long time ago.

He has NO video from the beginning of the project so its just a boatyard workshop. Enough for a couple of vids only

Not interested in watching him trying to bodge up a door hinge for the 3rd time. Not nearly as friendly as Doug

Dougs a good guy. He just made a bad choice that he thought was funny. He has no training in political correctness or stroking fickle subscribers. Anyone that unsubscribed because of this prank is being super petty.

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10 minutes ago, Temptation said:

Bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupeg gday mate... He ran out of material worth posting a long time ago.

He has NO video from the beginning of the project so its just a boatyard workshop. Enough for a couple of vids only

Not interested in watching him trying to bodge up a door hinge for the 3rd time. Not nearly as friendly as Doug

Dougs a good guy. He just made a bad choice that he thought was funny. He has no training in political correctness or stroking fickle subscribers. Anyone that unsubscribed because of this prank is being super petty.

Well i think its just super that you find him friendly and a good guy. 


 

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Brupeg did teach me about the huge wing stabiliser Aussie trawlers use. I have never seen them before. Sometimes they do dumb things (I.e. lots of welding instead of just buying a bigger piece of steel) but on the whole I'd go to sea in their boat.

Doug on the other hand fitted school bus glass windows to his pilothouse. First big wave will break 'em.

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25 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Brupeg did teach me about the huge wing stabiliser Aussie trawlers use. I have never seen them before. Sometimes they do dumb things (I.e. lots of welding instead of just buying a bigger piece of steel) but on the whole I'd go to sea in their boat.

Doug on the other hand fitted school bus glass windows to his pilothouse. First big wave will break 'em.

Doug has an enormous amount of energy, an ability to use inadequate tools to achieve quite impressive results, and a total contempt for anyone who actually uses engineering rather than WAG's to build stuff.

That boat is structurally inadequate and way overweight. The next one of his vids I'll bother watching is the launch. That may well be the last one too.

FKT

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The launch of Seeker may be one of the events of the season (week?).

Once they step those telephone pole masts - game on.

By comparison how much does a typical working junk weigh?   

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