hasher

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Interesting.

Communism seems to be on the rise among the young.

Why More Young Americans Are Exploring Communism

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WRITTEN BY
LINDSEY WEEDSTON
POSTED IN
SOCIETY+POLITICS
1S6_MGO8r_pskL61hxHoSaA-1.jpg  

Hint: It has something to do with capitalism’s failures and a so-called ‘Trump bump.’

To put it in blunt but unsurprising terms, the world is in shambles right now. Fascism is on the rise again. Hate crimes are up in the U.S. Water crises loom on the horizon. Wealth inequality has never been higher. Climate change and natural disasters abound. Mass shootings galore. Police brutality and racism. A rising threat of nuclear war.

Amidst this nightmarish backdrop, many people — particularly younger Americans — are in search of answers, trying to identify a root cause for all of these problems. And one that’s emerging front and center is our entire economic system.

A 2011 Pew Research Center poll found that a slight majority of liberal Democrats held “negative views” of capitalism. In 2016, a Harvard University study revealed that 51% of people between the ages of 18 and 29 “don’t support” capitalism—and only 42% support it.

So if not capitalism, then what?

The study found young people favor socialism, but that’s not the only alternative. There has been an uptick of interest in a 170-year old political system — that dirtiest of C-words.

Communism.

https://theestablishment.co/why-more-young-americans-are-exploring-communism-f286c27da93b/index.html

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Commie chic is cool again.

Teen Vogue, which now serves its beauty and lifestyle tips with a heavy dose of progressive politics, celebrated Karl Marx’s 200th birthday in May with a feature lauding the father of Communism as a bold and relevant thinker. “His writings have inspired social movements in Soviet Russia, China, Cuba, Argentina, Ghana, Burkina Faso, and more,” the article noted, coyly omitting any mention of how those “social movements” turned out. More recently and on a more highbrow note, Boston Review gives us an essay exploring Jean-Paul Sartre’s blend of existentialism and Marxism as a “philosophy for our time,” complete with a photo of Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir in a 1960 tête-à-tête with Che Guevara.

Kirsten Ghodsee, a professor of Russian and East European studies at the University of Pennsylvania, offers Communist nostalgia with a feminist twist in her recent book, Why Women Had Better Sex Under Socialism, which trots out a few East German sex surveys as evidence for its dubious claim. (Yes, the “socialism” in her title refers to the pre-1991 Soviet-bloc variety.) Meanwhile, left-wing Twitter accounts increasingly sport not only the socialist rose emoji but the Communist hammer-and-sickle—and, in real space, Communist symbols and Soviet flags have been a mainstay at “anti-fascist” protest rallies.

In part, the new Communist chic reflects the rise in the popularity of socialism. A Gallup poll earlier this year found that, among Democrats, Democratic-leaning independents—and, perhaps most significant, among all American adults under 30—socialism is now viewed more positively than capitalism. To some extent, this is a consequence of capitalism’s falling stock: more than half of respondents in both groups have reported a positive view of socialism since 2010, while approval of capitalism has dropped by more than 10 percentage points in two years. Most Americans who profess to like socialism associate it with Western European welfare states; still, even Communism is viewed favorably by more than one in four young adults. Meanwhile, Democratic Socialists such as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are shaking up the Democratic Party. And hip new intellectuals and pundits with a soft spot for Communism are everywhere.

https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/276374/a-cool-kid-communist-comeback

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We pinko/commie/lefties have been telling you that the insane wealth inequalities would breed revolt.

But did you listen?

NOOOOOO!

You can only fuck people in the ass without lube for so long before they kick you in the nuts.

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How can anybody kick from that position?? 
 

... asking for a certain older orange colored politician who may soon go to jail 

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I know y'all are writing in jest . . 

but for the rest of ya, Project Veritas has a well-earned reputation for flagrant lying. 

(And it has hurt some good, innocent people in the process - not that the Reich gives a rat about that)  

If such a thing is even possible, PV may be even less credible than our own BravoBtavo 

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Not sure if anyone has noticed but @Pun Slinger is starting threads and replying to.himself again.

Can't somebody at least chime in?  It's like watching a puppy drown.

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2 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Interesting.

Communism seems to be on the rise among the young.

Why More Young Americans Are Exploring Communism

Avatar
WRITTEN BY
LINDSEY WEEDSTON
POSTED IN
SOCIETY+POLITICS
1S6_MGO8r_pskL61hxHoSaA-1.jpg  

Hint: It has something to do with capitalism’s failures and a so-called ‘Trump bump.’

To put it in blunt but unsurprising terms, the world is in shambles right now. Fascism is on the rise again. Hate crimes are up in the U.S. Water crises loom on the horizon. Wealth inequality has never been higher. Climate change and natural disasters abound. Mass shootings galore. Police brutality and racism. A rising threat of nuclear war.

Amidst this nightmarish backdrop, many people — particularly younger Americans — are in search of answers, trying to identify a root cause for all of these problems. And one that’s emerging front and center is our entire economic system.

A 2011 Pew Research Center poll found that a slight majority of liberal Democrats held “negative views” of capitalism. In 2016, a Harvard University study revealed that 51% of people between the ages of 18 and 29 “don’t support” capitalism—and only 42% support it.

So if not capitalism, then what?

The study found young people favor socialism, but that’s not the only alternative. There has been an uptick of interest in a 170-year old political system — that dirtiest of C-words.

Communism.

https://theestablishment.co/why-more-young-americans-are-exploring-communism-f286c27da93b/index.html

I like it.

 

 

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3 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

I know y'all are writing in jest . . 

but for the rest of ya, Project Veritas has a well-earned reputation for flagrant lying. 

(And it has hurt some good, innocent people in the process - not that the Reich gives a rat about that)  

If such a thing is even possible, PV may be even less credible than our own BravoBtavo 

I'm not writing in jest. Why anyone should find it either interesting or unusual that some of Sanders people are Reds bemuses me.

My son joined the Australian communist party a few months ago. Hoping this won't affect his travel arrangements in the "land of the not quite so free as you used to be."

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4 hours ago, hasher said:

His comments about the Gulag are just mind-mindbogglingly uninformed. 

Yesterday, by coincidence, I spent a few hours reading about mid 20th century Russian history - which, as the author rather succinctly summed up at the end of each chapter, "..and then it got worse."

 

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3 hours ago, benwynn said:

Not sure if anyone has noticed but @Pun Slinger is starting threads and replying to.himself again.

Can't somebody at least chime in?  It's like watching a puppy drown.

But this is a puppy that chews up your furniture after taking a dump on it and pissing in your shoe.  Let him drown.

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1 hour ago, cmilliken said:

His comments about the Gulag are just mind-mindbogglingly uninformed. 

Yesterday, by coincidence, I spent a few hours reading about mid 20th century Russian history - which, as the author rather succinctly summed up at the end of each chapter, "..and then it got worse."

 

It's difficult to know who or what to believe when it comes to the Soviet Union, Cuba or anywhere with a communist history,. My Son is getting reading material from the Party, he claims everything from Wiki to anything published in the west is corrupt. I can't say I blame him for this attitude though I do wish he'd turn his BS radar up a notch or two.

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31 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

It's difficult to know who or what to believe when it comes to the Soviet Union, Cuba or anywhere with a communist history,. My Son is getting reading material from the Party, he claims everything from Wiki to anything published in the west is corrupt. I can't say I blame him for this attitude though I do wish he'd turn his BS radar up a notch or two.

Yea, I understand.  Yesterday's reading was about places like Nazinsky where there's some historical / archeological records to go along with the anecdotes.

I think what's hard to understand from a modern western perspective is the degree to which such places were off the radar, even at the time.  We superimpose the American or German sort of 'structure and counting' systems.  How do we know about the Holocaust or events like the Trail of Tears or Wounded Knee?  Because we kept records. From what I can tell, Russia had 'capacity' for several million people in prisons but TENS of millions were sent.  Much of the time, they didn't bother with records and certainly didn't 'dot the i's and cross the tees". 

They just rounded up everyone who was in a targeted area and sent them off to camps that were already filled to capacity.  Where did all the overrun end up?  Some people escaped.  We know that because they left accounts, either verbally or in writing.  But the vast majority appear to have simply perished by disease, exposure, or simple human cruelty/neglect.  They weren't rounded up and killed.  They were rounded up and ignored/forgotten.  They were dropped into remote wilderness stockaids with few supplies and nature took its course from there.  They lasted about as long as any typical westerner in the Siberian tundra - not terribly long - and did the things humans typically do to survive.

Stalin wasn't kidding when he said the "a million deaths is a statistic".  There's a point where the body count simple becomes unimaginable.  They're not humans anymore.  Just numbers.

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16 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

Yea, I understand.  Yesterday's reading was about places like Nazinsky where there's some historical / archeological records to go along with the anecdotes.

I think what's hard to understand from a modern western perspective is the degree to which such places were off the radar, even at the time.  We superimpose the American or German sort of 'structure and counting' systems.  How do we know about the Holocaust or events like the Trail of Tears or Wounded Knee?  Because we kept records. From what I can tell, Russia had 'capacity' for several million people in prisons but TENS of millions were sent.  Much of the time, they didn't bother with records and certainly didn't 'dot the i's and cross the tees". 

They just rounded up everyone who was in a targeted area and sent them off to camps that were already filled to capacity.  Where did all the overrun end up?  Some people escaped.  We know that because they left accounts, either verbally or in writing.  But the vast majority appear to have simply perished by disease, exposure, or simple human cruelty/neglect.  They weren't rounded up and killed.  They were rounded up and ignored/forgotten.  They were dropped into remote wilderness stockaids with few supplies and nature took its course from there.  They lasted about as long as any typical westerner in the Siberian tundra - not terribly long - and did the things humans typically do to survive.

Stalin wasn't kidding when he said the "a million deaths is a statistic".  There's a point where the body count simple becomes unimaginable.  They're not humans anymore.  Just numbers.

You got a cite for any of that?

you see the problem?

When people still claim that Mao personally was responsible for millions of deaths in the great famine (Conveniently forgetting other contributing factors)

and that Stalin sent millions to their deaths in gulags

How can anyone make any sense out of this?

Prior to the dissolution of the Soviet Union, estimates of Gulag victims ranged from 2.3 to 17.6 million (see a History of Gulag population estimates section). Mortality in Gulag camps in 1934–40 was 4–6 times higher than average in the Soviet Union. Post-1991 research by historians accessing archival materials brought this range down considerably.[78][79] According to a 1993 study of archival Soviet data, a total of 1,053,829 people died in the Gulag from 1934 to 1953.[5]:1024 However, taking into account the fact that it was common practice to release prisoners who were either suffering from incurable diseases or near death,[80][81] a combined statistics on mortality in the camps and mortality caused by the camps gives a probable figure around 1.6 million.[3][4] In contrast Anatoly Vishnevsky estimated total number of those who died in imprisonment in 1930–53 is at least 1.76 million, about half of which occurred between 1941–43 following the German invasion.[82][83] If prisoner deaths from labor colonies and special settlements are included, the death toll according to J. Otto Pohl rises to 2,749,163, although the historian who compiled this estimate (J. Otto Pohl) stresses that it is incomplete, and doesn't cover all prisoner categories for every year.[81][6]

In her recent study, Golfo Alexopoulos attempted to challenge this consensus figure by encompassing those whose life was shortened due to GULAG conditions.[2] Alexopoulos concluded from her research that a systematic practice of the Gulag was to release sick prisoners on the verge of death; and that all prisoners who received the health classification "invalid," "light physical labour," "light individualised labour," or "physically defective" that together according to Alexopoulos encompassed at least one third of all inmates who passed through the Gulag died or had their lives shortened due to detention in the Gulag in captivity or shortly after release.[84] The GULAG mortality estimated in this way yields the figure of 6 million deaths[7] Historian Orlando Figes and Russian writer Vadim Erlikman have posited similar estimates.[8][9] The estimate of Alexopoulos however; has obvious methodological difficulties[2] and is supported by misinterpreted evidence such as presuming that hundreds of thousands of prisoners “directed to other places of detention” in 1948 was a euphemism for releasing prisoners on the verge of death into labour colonies, when it was really referring to internal transport in the Gulag rather than release.[85]

The tentative historical consensus among archival researchers and historians who access such data is that of the 18 million people who passed through the gulag from 1930 to 1953, is that at least[85] between 1.5 and 1.7 million perished as a result of their detention[2] though some historians believe the actual death toll is "somewhat higher."[85]

 

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31 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

You got a cite for any of that?

you see the problem?

Sure.  I understand.

There are lots of citations but there isn't any 'western style' accounting.  There is not going to be any cite of that sort - it simply didn't matter enough to even record everything.  It was a rough time and the Russians didn't even keep track of all their soldiers/paramilitaries, let alone civilians.  Pay and food were often distributed by 'group' and not by individual.  What exists are eye witness accounts, laments of families who's relatives 'just disappeared', the occasional survivor (or charlatan?), some government records, and some archeological records like mass graves and pictures. Many of the records trace back to camp doctors who may or may not have been honest.  Just have to make a best guess Hegelian dialectic style.  There is certainly incentive in the west to inflate the atrocity but there are some records so we know stuff did happen. 

We know that the Chinese 'selectively aborting female fetuses' happened at some level because of the demographic surveys  (unless you think the surveys are also lies) but we also know that many families (with the help of local officials), simply lied which is why there's a bunch of 'undocumented Chinese women' roaming around China (unless you believe those women are really some sort of 'undocumented' immigrants who happen to be of the right age).  There will never be a "hard" accounting of such things.

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7 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

Sure.  I understand.

There are lots of citations but there isn't any 'western style' accounting.  There is not going to be any cite of that sort - it simply didn't matter enough to even record everything.  It was a rough time and the Russians didn't even keep track of all their soldiers/paramilitaries, let alone civilians.  Pay and food were often distributed by 'group' and not by individual.  What exists are eye witness accounts, laments of families who's relatives 'just disappeared', the occasional survivor (or charlatan?), some government records, and some archeological records like mass graves and pictures. Many of the records trace back to camp doctors who may or may not have been honest.  Just have to make a best guess Hegelian dialectic style.  There is certainly incentive in the west to inflate the atrocity but there are some records so we know stuff did happen. 

We know that the Chinese 'selectively aborting female fetuses' happened at some level because of the demographic surveys  (unless you think the surveys are also lies) but we also know that many families (with the help of local officials), simply lied which is why there's a bunch of 'undocumented Chinese women' roaming around China (unless you believe those women are really some sort of 'undocumented' immigrants who happen to be of the right age).  There will never be a "hard" accounting of such things.

A couple of weeks ago I was in Hong Kong and talked to one of the locals about the current political situation there.  His view was that China actually wanted the turmoil as an outlet for dissidents.  In the end, those who truly hate the situation will move away and everyone else will fall into line.  They just need patience.  If it looks like anyone is becoming an effective leader there is pressure on their family.  There is actually more on those who are near the leadership in secondary positions.

Taiwan is also concerned about China.  One fellow described it as we are sort of engaged, we sleep together but Taiwan doesn't want to get married.

Then, there is Cambodia that is so corrupt that it might as well be a Chinese territory.  https://globalriskinsights.com/2019/10/chinese-naval-base-in-cambodia/

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6 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

I know y'all are writing in jest . . 

but for the rest of ya, Project Veritas has a well-earned reputation for flagrant lying. 

(And it has hurt some good, innocent people in the process - not that the Reich gives a rat about that)  

If such a thing is even possible, PV may be even less credible than our own BravoBtavo 

 

6 hours ago, benwynn said:

Not sure if anyone has noticed but @Pun Slinger is starting threads and replying to.himself again.

Can't somebody at least chime in?  It's like watching a puppy drown.

Wait, Happy Jerk posted another Veritas pile of trash from convicted felon James O'Keeffe?

Shocking.

Pretty much anything Veritas does can be ignored, they are even LESS credible than our resident Ridgeline humper.

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7 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

image.png.c999c153ac0269f6ce08ba3183d53401.png

 

PA.jpg

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I love Norman Mailer's book "Oswald's Tale".  He interviews KBG as well as ordinary workers.  It certainly seemed to provide insight into the everyday Russian lifestyle.

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8 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

How can anybody kick from that position?? 
 

... asking for a certain older orange colored politician who may soon go to jail 

The photo-revolutinaries (sex assault victims) are typically young and much more flexible than the old farts on PA.

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2 hours ago, Saorsa said:

A couple of weeks ago I was in Hong Kong and talked to one of the locals about the current political situation there.  His view was that China actually wanted the turmoil as an outlet for dissidents.  In the end, those who truly hate the situation will move away and everyone else will fall into line.  They just need patience.  If it looks like anyone is becoming an effective leader there is pressure on their family.  There is actually more on those who are near the leadership in secondary positions.

Taiwan is also concerned about China.  One fellow described it as we are sort of engaged, we sleep together but Taiwan doesn't want to get married.

Then, there is Cambodia that is so corrupt that it might as well be a Chinese territory.  https://globalriskinsights.com/2019/10/chinese-naval-base-in-cambodia/

Such a bizarre reductivist crazy pill worldview; China doesn’t want - and actually prohibits - dissidents from leaving. They want them dead or in camps, and that’s what they are do8ng,

 

 

reading 20th century Russian history without the 17th to the 19thleads you a bit astray. There’s a reason no one gave a fuck about the Russian emigres after the revolution; corrupt, incompetent, reactionary, bigots 

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To reiterate, Project "Veritas" is even more truth-challenged than Bravo . . 

A very basic principle of critical thinking is that when someone lies to you, 

you are not well advised to believe anything they say after that. 

Why is that seemingly so hard to grasp? 

(For one thing, O'Keefe & his band of propagandists regularly edit interviews to 

make it seem that people are way radical, corrupt, and etc.) 

Come on sailors, it's not that hard . .  

https://www.niemanlab.org/2017/11/video-was-key-for-the-washington-posts-debunking-of-project-veritas-but-what-will-proof-look-like-in-an-era-of-easily-doctored-visuals/

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7 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

I'm not writing in jest. Why anyone should find it either interesting or unusual that some of Sanders people are Reds bemuses me.

My son joined the Australian communist party a few months ago. Hoping this won't affect his travel arrangements in the "land of the not quite so free as you used to be."

You should get him some help. Have him come here and join an orthodox Hutterite community and see how he likes it - they live their lives in a very pure communist way.

Anyone who still believes that Communism can work is intellectually challenged - at a minimum they are incapable of critical thinking.

Lots of great theory but it utterly fails to account for human nature.

Same way that Libertarianism fundamentally fails.

Back in the 30's, long before Communism's failings had even been realized by most, my dad's best friend was heavily involved in politics - became an MP - and they all referred to the commies as "The Comicals" because they were so ridiculous, nasty and intellectually challenged.

It's no longer even comical, just incredibly ignorant of history and reality.

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^^^

Fortunately for humanity, true communism has never been implemented in a large society. Same for libertarianism. We are presently worshiping pure unfettered capitalism. That has never succeeded either. But the 1%, their minions, and their deluded sycophants are set on giving it another good try.

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3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Anyone who still believes that Communism can work is intellectually challenged - at a minimum they are incapable of critical thinking.

Lots of great theory but it utterly fails to account for human nature.

There is no shortage of well-documented books that provide evidence of that.  But there is no "pure" system that works for all.  Systems of government need to be diverse and flexible if they are to be for the people.  But any system designed around an autocrat will never be "for the people."  And too often we see the masses supporting autocracy.  

Our unique ability to reason makes us the most unreasonable creatures on earth.

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3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

You don't think any of those accounts may possibly be exaggerated?

I'm simply playing the devils avocado. We all "know: deaths occurred what we don't "know" or tend to spin, is the numbers and causes of those deaths,

Like the Ukraine famine blamed Lenin for 5 million deaths (at least all expat ukrainians grow up with this tale) it was a lot more complicated and all sides had some degree of responsibility. Our generation grew up on a steady diet of lies and half truths about any number of things Communist, Our generation grew up with the lies of the CIA too, Why would we expect the younger generation to believe anything we say when there's living proof that our generation are still unable to lie straight in bed?

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4 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

^^^

Fortunately for humanity, true communism has never been implemented in a large society. Same for libertarianism. We are presently worshiping pure unfettered capitalism. That has never succeeded either. But the 1%, their minions, and their deluded sycophants are set on giving it another good try.

And the USA among others, made dam sure it could never even have half a chance of working.

 

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8 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

^^^

Fortunately for humanity, true communism has never been implemented in a large society. Same for libertarianism. We are presently worshiping pure unfettered capitalism. That has never succeeded either. But the 1%, their minions, and their deluded sycophants are set on giving it another good try.

This times about a billion. Both of them imagine a humanity that does not and never will exist. Same reason hippie communes don't scale.

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13 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

You should get him some help. Have him come here and join an orthodox Hutterite community and see how he likes it - they live their lives in a very pure communist way.

Anyone who still believes that Communism can work is intellectually challenged - at a minimum they are incapable of critical thinking.

Lots of great theory but it utterly fails to account for human nature.

Same way that Libertarianism fundamentally fails.

Back in the 30's, long before Communism's failings had even been realized by most, my dad's best friend was heavily involved in politics - became an MP - and they all referred to the commies as "The Comicals" because they were so ridiculous, nasty and intellectually challenged.

It's no longer even comical, just incredibly ignorant of history and reality.

My dad's best friend? really? 

Communism has a rep of being implimented and enforced by blood,

The thing that shits me is that Capitalism is OH SO FUCKING PURE. (sarc)

Does anyone stop to assess the deaths caused by the Capitalist creed? The mine workers, the slave trade, wars are about naught but greed and "capitalism"

One's supposed "right" to exploit .

Bah humbug. If you could abolish hypocrisy we'd all be living in paradise, 

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2 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

This times about a billion. Both of them imagine a humanity that does not and never will exist. Same reason hippie communes don't scale.

ans Capitalism doesn't "work" any better. Just ask the poor

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8 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

You don't think any of those accounts may possibly be exaggerated?

I'm simply playing the devils avocado. We all "know: deaths occurred what we don't "know" or tend to spin, is the numbers and causes of those deaths,

Like the Ukraine famine blamed Lenin for 5 million deaths (at least all expat ukrainians grow up with this tale) it was a lot more complicated and all sides had some degree of responsibility. Our generation grew up on a steady diet of lies and half truths about any number of things Communist, Our generation grew up with the lies of the CIA too, Why would we expect the younger generation to believe anything we say when there's living proof that our generation are still unable to lie straight in bed?

Have you read them? I have no interest in your trolling, READ THE BOOKS. Or of course the CIA could have brainwashed uncounted numbers of Russians and Ukrainians along with western authors to make people hate communism years after the demise of the USSR :rolleyes: Being uninformed is a not a good look for someone who presumably has the brains to read books and understand them.

 

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2 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Have you read them? I have no interest in your trolling, READ THE BOOKS. Or of course the CIA could have brainwashed uncounted numbers of Russians and Ukrainians along with western authors to make people hate communism years after the demise of the USSR :rolleyes: Being uninformed is a not a good look for someone who presumably has the brains to read books and understand them.

 

Have you read "The ragged trousered philanthropist"?, Dickens? Orwell?

Shove your one eyed patron ism 

It may come as a shock to you but I'm simply less gullible, more jaded, Niether systems work for the good of all. The Capitalist system is unashamedly designed to push the majority to the bottom of a pyramid. The Communist system is designed to invert that pyramid.  neither work wholy as intended do they?  

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32 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

My dad's best friend? really?

Yeah really - the point was that they were heavily involved at the highest level with the politics of the time.

Your comment makes it clear where your son got his critical thinking skills from.

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5 hours ago, cmilliken said:

 

We know that the Chinese 'selectively aborting female fetuses' happened at some level because of the demographic surveys  (unless you think the surveys are also lies) but we also know that many families (with the help of local officials), simply lied which is why there's a bunch of 'undocumented Chinese women' roaming around China (unless you believe those women are really some sort of 'undocumented' immigrants who happen to be of the right age).  There will never be a "hard" accounting of such things.

You see this is the sort of thing I mean.

The Chinese were not alone in such practice but you cite the Chinese (Communists) as an example of this evil,. 

India aborts girls too..now what do India and China have in common? huge populations  what could possibly be the reason for China aborting more double xx fetus?

The one child policy.

It's NOT Chinese policy to abort girls, it's the vestiges of peasant idiology  not communism.

Yet even someone as smart as you easily falls into using these cliches to demonize communism.

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38 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

ans Capitalism doesn't "work" any better. Just ask the poor

Perfect illustration of your cluelessness - the poor in our societies live well above the standards of the average in every communist society that ever existed.

Cuba's is a pretty benign form of commidom yet after 60 years of it the average income is about $25 per month.

Wake the fuck up! You sound as ridiculous in your own way as JerKZ

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1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

Yeah really - the point was that they were heavily involved at the highest level with the politics of the time.

 

 surely you have learned by now, you cant tell 22 tear olds, they have to do it for themselves. Or maybe, from your tone, you haven't learned anything at all.

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A fuck of a lot more than you it would appear.

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1 minute ago, Shortforbob said:

You see this is the sort of thing I mean.

The Chinese were not alone in such practice but you cite the Chinese (Communists) as an example of this evil,. 

India aborts girls too..now what do India and China have in common? huge populations  what could possibly be the reason for China aborting more double xx fetus?

The one child policy.

It's NOT Chinese policy to abort girls, it's the vestiges of peasant idiology  not communism.

Yet even someone as smart as you easily falls into using these cliches to demonize communism.

It is wonderful that the Chinese were welcomed on this continent with open arms.  https://torontoist.com/2016/04/now-and-then-chinese-railroad-workers/

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34 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

ans Capitalism doesn't "work" any better. Just ask the poor

Let me help you here. Try purple.

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1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

Perfect illustration of your cluelessness - the poor in our societies live well above the standars of the average in every communist society that ever existed.

Cuba's is a pretty benign form of commidom yet after 60 years of it the average income is about $25 per month.

Wake the fuck up! You sound as ridiculous in your own way as JerKZ

I see, so unless everyone can live in a McMansion and have two cars, a system is a failure eh?

Perhaps having good teeth is an equally reliable indicator of the success of any given political philosophy. 

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3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

A fuck of a lot more than you it would appear.

silly old bugger,

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21 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Have you read "The ragged trousered philanthropist"?, Dickens? Orwell?

Shove your one eyed patron ism 

It may come as a shock to you but I'm simply less gullible, more jaded, Niether systems work for the good of all. The Capitalist system is unashamedly designed to push the majority to the bottom of a pyramid. The Communist system is designed to invert that pyramid.  neither work wholy as intended do they?  

I am not going to tell you anything at all about the "ragged trouser" book because I HAVE NOT READ IT. Unlike you I am not going to spout made up bullshit about something I know nothing about.

I am also not in the mood to review all the Orwell and Dickens I have read, do you have something specific to say about them? I usually enjoy both of them, but I do have to point out that Orwell had a weird fascination with nude coal miner's buttocks. NTTIAWWT.

http://george-orwell.org/Down_The_Mine/0.html Enjoy :D 

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9 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I am not going to tell you anything at all about the "ragged trouser" book because I HAVE NOT READ IT. Unlike you I am not going to spout made up bullshit about something I know nothing about.

I am also not in the mood to review all the Orwell and Dickens I have read, do you have something specific to say about them? I usually enjoy both of them, but I do have to point out that Orwell had a weird fascination with nude coal miner's buttocks. NTTIAWWT.

http://george-orwell.org/Down_The_Mine/0.html Enjoy :D 

My Dad's favorite ,he and Robert Noonan could have been brothers,

Read it, It's actually better than a lot of Orwell's posturing.

The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists (1914) is a semi-biographical novel by the Irish house painter and sign writer Robert Noonan, who wrote the book in his spare time under the pen name Robert Tressell. Published after Tressell's death from tuberculosis in the Liverpool Royal Infirmary in 1911, the novel follows a house painter's efforts to find work in the fictional English town of Mugsborough (based on the coastal town of Hastings) to stave off the workhouse for himself, his wife and his son. The original title page, drawn by Tressell, carried the subtitle: "Being the story of twelve months in Hell, told by one of the damned, and written down by Robert Tressell."[1]

Grant Richards Ltd. published about two-thirds of the manuscript in April 1914 after Tressell's daughter, Kathleen Noonan, showed her father's work to her employers. The 1914 edition not only omitted material but also moved text around and gave the novel a depressing ending. Tressell's original manuscript was first published in 1955 by Lawrence and Wishart.[1]

An explicitly political work, the novel is widely regarded as a classic of working-class literature.[2] As of 2003, it had sold over one million copies.[3] George Orwell described it as "a book that everyone should read".[4]

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

This times about a billion. Both of them imagine a humanity that does not and never will exist. Same reason hippie communes don't scale.

Both are “complete” ideology where everything has to have a “proper” place which leads to hilariously misguided bs. Libertarians can, and some do, argue that measurement standardization is a tool of “statist” control.

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4 hours ago, hasher said:

I love Norman Mailer's book "Oswald's Tale".  He interviews KBG as well as ordinary workers.  It certainly seemed to provide insight into the everyday Russian lifestyle.

A much better book is "The Russians" by Hedrick Smith. Required reading for newbies in the State Dept being posted to Moscow or any of the Bloc states back in the day. Hedrick was the NYT correspondent in Moscow for about a decade in the 70's. For whatever reason the Soviets allowed him broad travel latitude within Russia, including several personal private interviews with Solzhenitsyn.

  Tedious reading for the un-genuinely curious, a page-turner impossible to put down for those who aren't.  Hedrick relates what Russian is by means of about a thousand anecdotes, observations and conversations with ordinary Russians...and some not so ordinary.       
 

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2 minutes ago, Mark K said:

A much better book is "The Russians" by Hedrick Smith. Required reading by all newbies in the State Dept being posted to Moscow or any of the Bloc states back in the day. Hedrick was the NYT correspondent in Moscow for about a decade in the 70's. For whatever reason the Soviets allowed him broad travel latitude within Russia, including several personal private interviews with Solzhenitsyn.

  Tedious reading for the un-genuinely curious, a page-turner impossible to put down for those who aren't.  Hedrick relates what Russian is by means of about a thousand anecdotes, observations and conversations with ordinary Russians...and some not so ordinary.       
 

Ken Follet wrote a great book that was placed in time at the Russian revolution.

The key may be keeping the mind flexible.

The best sailors I know say they never fail to learn while on the water.

I will look for the book you suggest.

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So what sources are credible, and which are not? 

Well, for sure, Veritas is not; but aside from that a real eye opener for me was back in the 1980's 

during the US-Central American Wars. After going there and seeing for myself, and studying up a good deal 

I concluded that 98% of what the US gummint was saying about Central Am. was a pack of lies; and 

the MSM was almost as bad - maybe 95% lies. 

So when some gray eminence tells me about the horrors of this place or that . . .  I'm skeptical. 

In recent news, note how you are expected to believe how nefarious Iran is . . . I'm not buying it. 

And see below - sounds like the Sloop has never been to Cuba. For a poor country they do OK - good schools, free uni (even for gringos!), 

good health care, and they live longer that USAeans. 

1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Cuba's is a pretty benign form of commidom yet after 60 years of it the average income is about $25 per month.

Wake the fuck up! You sound as ridiculous in your own way as JerKZ

 

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

You see this is the sort of thing I mean.

The Chinese were not alone in such practice but you cite the Chinese (Communists) as an example of this evil,.

I thought we were having a conversation about the relative merits of cited references.  You're projecting motive.  I didn't make any value judgement on the Chinese practice itself - I cited it as an example of the problems faced when collecting such data.  We can have the abortion discussion if you want but I stay away from those issues in general.  I'm pro choice but consider abortion to an incredibly personal issue.

Back to the reference question, there is a 'belief' that selective abortion happened in China.  The closest thing we have to a fact (at least as I'm aware) is the demographic data.  As far as I know, there was never any reporting of the gender of aborted fetuses therefore the 'fact' must be inferred based on population data later collected.  However, as I pointed out, there's also a group of 'undocumented' female Chinese that were, by all accounts, carried to term against the rules of the state and delivered nonetheless.  That could be verified with genetic testing.  But in the mean time, that brings into question both the demographic data and any abortion data since there seems to be evidence of lying at the local level.

Similarly, the number of Russians that died in Gulags must be inferred from demographic data.  The Russians (again, to the best of my understanding), didn't keep particularly good records of whom they sent off and to where.  What is known is that people were rounded up in mass arrests.  There are records of trains of people sent to various internment camps.  Outside these camps have been found mass graves and villagers have talked about the terrible conditions within the camps.  But exactly how many people died will never be known.

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5 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I have read Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago and Snyder's Bloodlands.  

Two very different kinds of books but both are well worth reading and important.

Also worth a  look is Savage Continent Europe in the aftermath of World War II.  It talks about all of Europe. There is a chapter on "The Subjugation of Eastern Europe".  Many people don't realize that several million people died between the end of the war and 1947.  Most of the deaths were in eastern Europe.  The Poles took a bit of revenge on the Germans, and there was a lot of resistance in the Baltic states and other parts of eastern Europe to the Soviets.

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3 minutes ago, hasher said:

Ken Follet wrote a great book that was placed in time at the Russian revolution.

The key may be keeping the mind flexible.

The best sailors I know say they never fail to learn while on the water.

I will look for the book you suggest.

It's almost barren of the broad, bumper-sticker assertions our minds have been conditioned to seek these days...but he does make some broad assertions near the end. In Hedrick's view the Reds failed to bring about the vast change in how the Russian people think they had sought to instill. Culture changes only very slowly, over many generations..the only exception is when individuals from several cultures are thrown together and must form a new one on the spot.

 Hedrick suspects the Russian people had lived under Czars for so long they still needed one. Stalin was essentially another Czar. We easily forget, or have never been informed of, the struggle it was within the US to establish all the traditions and institutions which allow a republic to function...and we were already British to begin with,  used to neutered monarchs. The Russian people came to revolution from a very different point.    

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Perfect illustration of your cluelessness - the poor in our societies live well above the standards of the average in every communist society that ever existed.

Cuba's is a pretty benign form of commidom yet after 60 years of it the average income is about $25 per month.

Wake the fuck up! You sound as ridiculous in your own way as JerKZ

That's a ridiculous statement and not true in many cases.  It's certainly not true for the communist countries in Europe during the Soviet time.  I have a wife and many friends in Poland and the former East Germany that lived through those times.  I have also read quite a bit about it.

I am no fan of communism either but try to keep your criticism within the realm of reality.

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read all those books, and also Jack Reed and Trotsky 

This one was a real eye opener for me . .  challenges the US good guy meme post WWII 

https://archive.org/details/OtherLosses_201608/page/n2/mode/2up 

A old German gent gave a copy to me. He lives through it. 

Again, the lesson is to be skeptical

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

The thing that shits me is that Capitalism is OH SO FUCKING PURE. (sarc)

Capitalism as a religion is about the accumulation of wealth through profit.  Unfettered capitalism is to capitalism as evalgelicals are to christianity.  It's the religion of the obsessively greedy.  Trump is part of the latter, as are most of the people he surrounds himself with.

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17 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

read all those books, and also Jack Reed and Trotsky 

This one was a real eye opener for me . .  challenges the US good guy meme post WWII 

https://archive.org/details/OtherLosses_201608/page/n2/mode/2up 

A old German gent gave a copy to me. He lives through it. 

Again, the lesson is to be skeptical

I'm more than a a bit skeptical about that book.  I am not denying that there were some abuses of German POWs after the war but I don't think that it was near 1,000,000.  I am also skeptical about any information coming from the KGB archives in Moscow.  I am especially skeptical of Bacque's claim that Eisenhower did it on purpose.  Bacque is not an historian and many of his claims sound much like the far right conspiracy theories that are so popular nowadays. 

I doubt any reasonable, well informed scholar of WW II history takes this book very seriously.

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1 minute ago, Ed Lada said:

I'm a bit skeptical about that book.  I am not denying that there were some abuses of German POWs after the war but I don't think that it was near 1,000,000.  I am also skeptical about any information coming from the KGB archives in Moscow.  I am especially skeptical of Bacque's claim that Eisenhower did it on purpose.  Bacque is not an historian and many of his claims sound much like the far right conspiracy theories that are so popular nowadays. 

I doubt any reasonable, well informed scholar of WW II history takes this book very seriously.

Yep, good idea to be skeptical. 

But I would say that a lot of the opposition to the book seemed to be thinly veiled and ideological. 

What if it were only a half million, or a quarter? Would that make a difference. 

James Michener was not a historian either, but read his Iberia and tell us what you think. 

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38 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

That's a ridiculous statement and not true in many cases.  It's certainly not true for the communist countries in Europe during the Soviet time.  I have a wife and many friends in Poland and the former East Germany that lived through those times.  I have also read quite a bit about it.

I am no fan of communism either but try to keep your criticism within the realm of reality.

So you regard a GDP per capita of under 10K under communism in East Germany before the fall as doing better than or equal to the bottom here?

Or how about the $20/month average pay in Poland at that time?

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8 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Yep, good idea to be skeptical. 

But I would say that a lot of the opposition to the book seemed to be thinly veiled and ideological. 

What if it were only a half million, or a quarter? Would that make a difference. 

James Michener was not a historian either, but read his Iberia and tell us what you think. 

The actual number is in the neighborhood of maybe 10,000 at most.  And yes, that would make a difference.  That would show great restraint, given the behavior of the Nazi's during the war.  

I think most of the opposition tot he book as I recall was that Bacque was a fruitcake.  The rest of the opposition was that most people just ignored it because the claims were so ludicrous and poorly researched and documented.  If you want to call that thinly veiled and ideological so be it.

Michner wrote some very good historical novels.  I have read many of them but not Iberia.  But to think that Michner is real history is like writing

a master's thesis only using Wikipedia for the research.  

Having said that, some of so called history that was written after WW II by some well known British and American historians was far more fictitious than anything Michner or even Bacque wrote.

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Come on Sloopster, try to have an open mind . .  (never been to Cuba, right?) 

This is almost the next best thing . .   a great short doco  

(And BTW, the wocomo folks make the world's best cooking documentaries) 

 

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13 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Come on Sloopster, try to have an open mind . . 

What's your point?

That Cubans aren't extremely poor? That communism has been a success there?

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7 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

So you regard a GDP per capita of under 10K under communism in East Germany before the fall as doing better than or equal to the bottom here?

Or how about the $20/month average pay in Poland at that time?

With all due respect, your figures are full of shit.  The disparity between income in Poland and the rest of Europe today is greater than it ever was during the communist period.  That's a real statistic.  

I am not going to argue the issue with you.  Do some research and find some real numbers.

Again, I am not a fan of communism.  However in Poland and East Germany and most of the other Warsaw Pact countries, nobody went homeless.  Everybody had food.  Almost everybody had a job.  People had cars and washing machines, etc.  Culture and the arts were an important part of life.  People traveled and could take low cost holidays at seaside resorts.  Higher education was free.  I am not saying any of this was in luxury but to say that the poor in 'our' societies live well above how people did under communism, at least in eastern Europe is just insane.  There is still a significant amount of older people here that long for those days.

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whatever system offers the best 'resources management' is the go-to one, and that sure as shite isn't capitalism, unfettered or otherwise. moderation, across the board, is golden. this is even more applicable in a world burdened by human overpopulation.

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I like low crime rates, low incarceration rates, universal healthcare, jobs for the able and personal freedoms.

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Communism doesn't work because people aren't selfless enough to work together for the common good.

Capitalism doesn't work because people are too greedy to work together for the common good

There is no middle ground system that will work because too many people fit into one of the two categories above.

The world is well and truly fucked.

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17 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

Communism doesn't work because people aren't selfless enough to work together for the common good.

Capitalism doesn't work because people are too greedy to work together for the common good

There is no middle ground system that will work because too many people fit into one of the two categories above.

The world is well and truly fucked.

There was a community of people that lived in my neighborhood.

I called them the blue people because the women wore blue smocks.

They held all property in common.

They owned houses, businesses and were prosperous.

It takes a lot of trust to live like that.  I wasn't a big fan of the roles designated to the women.

It seems that places like the Netherlands and other places where your neighbor looks like you, it seems easier to treat them well.

In the USA we are divided.  Henry Ford used it on his assembly line, to avoid workers unionizing.

I guess I consider myself a citizen of the world and unless the prosperity is spread around, I doubt we will stop the endless war.

I find it very fulfilling to work, sweat and go home worn out.  I did it for Habitat last week.  There was a free lunch but more importantly there was a sense of accomplishment.  Most people feel good about doing good.

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44 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

What's your point?

That Cubans aren't extremely poor? That communism has been a success there?

Communism never had a chance there under US embargo. Can you a least try to see that .

Look at Cuba's achievements today compared to the days of Batista and then think how much of the economy was handicapped by the actions of the USA.

Sure it's possible that the wealth could have still trickled upward, but just suppose that Castro was a man of principle and used the wealth of the country purely for the advancement and health of all cubans,

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14 minutes ago, hasher said:

In the USA we are divided.  Henry Ford used it on his assembly line, to avoid workers unionizing.

I live in Dearborn and Ford has done a lot of good for this place but Henry idolized Hitler, that's hard to forgive.

orange-ford-medal2.png

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11 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Communism never had a chance there under US embargo. Can you a least try to see that .

Look at Cuba's achievements today compared to the days of Batista and then think how much of the economy was handicapped by the actions of the USA.

Sure it's possible that the wealth could have still trickled upward, but just suppose that Castro was a man of principle and used the wealth of the country purely for the advancement and health of all cubans,

I guess that explains why they die trying to escape :rolleyes:

pro tip: Any country that will not let people leave and has people die trying has issues. Notice you're not there.

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3 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

My Dad's favorite ,he and Robert Noonan could have been brothers,

Read it, It's actually better than a lot of Orwell's posturing.

The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists (1914) is a semi-biographical novel by the Irish house painter and sign writer Robert Noonan, who wrote the book in his spare time under the pen name Robert Tressell. Published after Tressell's death from tuberculosis in the Liverpool Royal Infirmary in 1911, the novel follows a house painter's efforts to find work in the fictional English town of Mugsborough (based on the coastal town of Hastings) to stave off the workhouse for himself, his wife and his son. The original title page, drawn by Tressell, carried the subtitle: "Being the story of twelve months in Hell, told by one of the damned, and written down by Robert Tressell."[1]

Grant Richards Ltd. published about two-thirds of the manuscript in April 1914 after Tressell's daughter, Kathleen Noonan, showed her father's work to her employers. The 1914 edition not only omitted material but also moved text around and gave the novel a depressing ending. Tressell's original manuscript was first published in 1955 by Lawrence and Wishart.[1]

An explicitly political work, the novel is widely regarded as a classic of working-class literature.[2] As of 2003, it had sold over one million copies.[3] George Orwell described it as "a book that everyone should read".[4]

It was free for my Kindle, so I'll be onto it soon.

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3 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I guess that explains why they die trying to escape :rolleyes:

pro tip: Any country that will not let people leave and has people die trying has issues. Notice you're not there.

 

"Communism never had a chance there under US embargo. Can you a least try to see that .

Look at Cuba's achievements today compared to the days of Batista and then think how much of the economy was handicapped by the actions of the USA.

Sure it's possible that the wealth could have still trickled upward, but just suppose that Castro was a man of principle and used the wealth of the country purely for the advancement and health of all cubans,"

Which Cuban's were the ones drowning trying to leave?

Perhaps they wouldn't have tried to leave and perhaps restrictions would not have been placed if the USA had not crippled the economy. We'll never know,

I think you're being deliberately obtuse. But perhaps not.

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2 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

With all due respect, your figures are full of shit.  The disparity between income in Poland and the rest of Europe today is greater than it ever was during the communist period.  That's a real statistic.  

I am not going to argue the issue with you.  Do some research and find some real numbers.

Again, I am not a fan of communism.  However in Poland and East Germany and most of the other Warsaw Pact countries, nobody went homeless.  Everybody had food.  Almost everybody had a job.  People had cars and washing machines, etc.  Culture and the arts were an important part of life.  People traveled and could take low cost holidays at seaside resorts.  Higher education was free.  I am not saying any of this was in luxury but to say that the poor in 'our' societies live well above how people did under communism, at least in eastern Europe is just insane.  There is still a significant amount of older people here that long for those days.

The numbers I quoted were from research.

But you're right - people had it pretty good under communism. I mean what's a 10 year wait for a Trabant?

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2 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

Communism doesn't work because people aren't selfless enough to work together for the common good.

Capitalism doesn't work because people are too greedy to work together for the common good

There is no middle ground system that will work because too many people fit into one of the two categories above.

The world is well and truly fucked.

Variations of democratic socialism or well regulated capitalism work pretty well for the vast majority of people.

Certainly, based on demonstrated results they are the best systems of all that have been tried.

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2 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Communism never had a chance there under US embargo. Can you a least try to see that .

Look at Cuba's achievements today compared to the days of Batista and then think how much of the economy was handicapped by the actions of the USA.

Sure it's possible that the wealth could have still trickled upward, but just suppose that Castro was a man of principle and used the wealth of the country purely for the advancement and health of all cubans,

Just suppose.

:lol:

Just suppose you got the point.

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2 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

I live in Dearborn and Ford has done a lot of good for this place but Henry idolized Hitler, that's hard to forgive.

orange-ford-medal2.png

Great men are rarely nice people.

Ford admired Hitler because of the efficiency he saw in Germany.

And he was a pretty rabid anti-Semite although I doubt to the extent of the camps.

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Great men are rarely nice people.

Ford admired Hitler because of the efficiency cronyism he saw in Germany.

And he was a pretty rabid anti-Semite although I doubt to the extent of the camps.

Lindbergh was a Hitler fan too. Never could understand it.

It's a myth that the Nazi gov't was "efficient." It was crony capitalism to the extreme, textbook fascism in that the government was acting in the interest of the larger businesses in the country (and of course vice versa) but there was a lot of outright theft going on. Business owners and the wealthy had to suck up to Nazis or risk getting stripped of everything by the corrupt courts.

I'm looking for Trump-appointed judges to start handing down more of the same kind of decisions. We already have some of that but it's not systematic

- DSK

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I know it was a myth but it was well presented to the casual outside observer at the time.

Being taken for a ride in a big Maybach on the new autobahn would have been the kind of thing Ford based his views on. That sort of thing and the work his German factories were getting.

Goebbels was very good at his job - no-one has ever denied that. ;)

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People focus on highly symbolic achievements that authoritarian states deliver well and ignore everything else. No different than China today “oh, a pretty new airport and HSR” and if you never see the peasants with buffalo, it’s the future.

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