Schakel

Women with the America's Cup

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Elegant ladies with the auld mug photo's.
At least that what I hope for!
1638209513_cupwithladies.jpg.4a407ab0cd7f79c6a548b639740339d1.jpg
L to R: Bill Lynn, President of the Herreshoff Marine Museum/ACHOF; Karolina Stefanski, Robbe & Berking Ambassador; Dana Coste, Director of Finance & Operations of HMM/ACHoF; and Evelyn Ansel, Curatorial Associate of HMM/ACHoF - Am Cup Hall of Fame.
Americas Cup Hall of Fame

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XwYrIO3AQ7WyUuZxTQ8Q_Bill-koch-americas-

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1 hour ago, Mid said:

XwYrIO3AQ7WyUuZxTQ8Q_Bill-koch-americas-

12 Metre Valiant? The ladies borrowed the blazers from their partners, they do not fit at all. Funny..
The next woman is quitte famous:
Duchess-AC-THUMB.jpg.a03f8777e54e378f9396055f1d99ea5a.jpg
Duchess of Cambridge, Catherine Middleton

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Or these two gentleman with their ladies,
248110621_BMWOracleRacingownerLarryEllisonandhiswifeMelanieCraft.jpg.7a8b979bbb33db39756dc73896c20586.jpg
Larry Ellison and his wife Melanie Craft
840218756_ErnestoandKirstenBertarelli.thumb.jpg.0e8698b89850e4fd729c9b818614bb2d.jpg
Ernesto and Kirsten Bertarelli.

 

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5 hours ago, Mid said:

XwYrIO3AQ7WyUuZxTQ8Q_Bill-koch-americas-

 

1 minute ago, mad said:

Defiant................Bill Koch campaign 1992.  The picture looks like its part of the 1995 Mighty Mary team.

 

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Pkease define, "elegant" before a still of "two girls and one cup" gets posted.

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That's a shame, this thread could have been about how the AC might have shown some glimmer of the 21st century and made it more feasible for women to compete; one of the greatest failings of this protocol in my view.

 

Instead we're going to have pictures of pretty women?

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I am surprised no cleavage shots yet. Photoshopped or not.

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1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

That's a shame, this thread could have been about how the AC might have shown some glimmer of the 21st century and made it more feasible for women to compete; one of the greatest failings of this protocol in my view.

 

Instead we're going to have pictures of pretty women?

https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1995-03-30-1995089151-story.html

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1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

That's a shame, this thread could have been about how the AC might have shown some glimmer of the 21st century and made it more feasible for women to compete; one of the greatest failings of this protocol in my view.

 

Instead we're going to have pictures of pretty women?

It’s the Schakel way, he’s already out as an stalker, just look at the latest Greta thread. Creepy......

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2 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

That's a shame, this thread could have been about how the AC might have shown some glimmer of the 21st century and made it more feasible for women to compete; one of the greatest failings of this protocol in my view.

 

Instead we're going to have pictures of pretty women?

If anyone thinks that sexual segregation still has a place in sailing then, check out New Zealand's woman rugby team, (Black Ferns). 

So, if physical strength is eliminated, what could be the reason no women are sailing in the Americas Cup? 

 

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1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

It's not 1995 any more.

 

Hey Einstein it may as well be 1895 considering the complete lack of women sailing in the AC. 

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383390648_ShirleyRobertsonwithcup.jpg.0444d777c4fa97208562f99999b90438.jpg
Shirley Robertson with cup
316023784_NicDouglasssailorgirlwithcup.thumb.jpg.d03c29c69f4f113796314e320033f76f.jpg
Nic Douglass, a.k.a. Sailor girl. Could have taken her visitors press card of...

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15 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

I would like to see a woman win the America's Cup, myself

There’s as much chance of that happening as Harvey Weinstein producing a sequel to Wind starring Gwyneth Paltrow.

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Hopefully the youth AC event the Kiwis are behind, which forces boats to have girls onboard, will change the scenery.

 

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21 hours ago, Priscilla said:

There’s as much chance of that happening as Harvey Weinstein producing a sequel to Wind starring Gwyneth Paltrow.

We'll see a rule requiring a minimum number of female crew; soon I hope. 

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3 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

We'll see a rule requiring a minimum number of female crew; soon I hope. 

While I'm no fan of forced female representation, it unfortunately seems to be the only way to break the male insider network - like in so many other areas. 

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

While I'm no fan of forced female representation, it unfortunately seems to be the only way to break the male insider network - like in so many other areas. 

And it would only make the event better. 

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28 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

And it would only make the event better. 

Absolutely and the events appeal would broaden.

I fear the misogynistic fathers of the Cup would crack the door only a little and reach no slur intended to imitation man chicks .

Anna Tobias would fit that role but what about changing the entire campaigns crew to being more gender balanced.

If the boats have to change so be it they are more than half battery powered and operated now.

 Engineers designers boat builders sailmakers the list is endless bring it on.

2C393761-D4D8-477E-89F8-D0A233C9CB11.jpeg.ccabc04ed447093e32f603a7deed51d7.jpeg

Selection on merit has denied women a place by way of a distinct historical lack of opportunity and a forever continuing sexist mindset.

80ED0E6E-D5A0-4C4C-88A2-BFC7C659F0F3.thumb.jpeg.dd3e9fb49041cd74f87d34584a8711ef.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Priscilla said:

Selection on merit has denied women a place by way of a distinct historical lack of opportunity and a forever continuing sexist mindset.

so change that mindset

dont force teams to use tokenism with their money

all that will happen is they make a position for a fixed rigging trimmer

selection by merit should be selection by merit

if they are capable of pitching for the yankees or throwing for the cowboys they should be doing so .. forcing the yankees or cowboys to use them if they are plainly not capable isnt going to please the fans .. and they are the ones that pay the bills

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4 minutes ago, phill_nz said:

so change that mindset

dont force teams to use tokenism with their money

all that will happen is they make a position for a fixed rigging trimmer

selection by merit should be selection by merit

if they are capable of pitching for the yankees or throwing for the cowboys they should be doing so .. forcing the yankees or cowboys to use them isnt going to please the fans .. and they are the ones that pay the bills

Selection by merit calls for equal opportunities and equal access.
By the way, a quota system is one of the possible means to change the mindset. Not the most elegant, but certainly one of the fastest to implement.

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11 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Selection by merit calls for equal opportunities and equal access.
By the way, a quota system is one of the possible means to change the mindset. Not the most elegant, but certainly one of the fastest to implement.

In my view its plain and simple gender apartheid and quotas are an extension of that thinking.

This matter should not be an imposition to be enforced but a broadening of horizons and opportunities to suit both sexes.

Why in the opinion of some it should remain a solely cockeyed male dominated undertaking is well beyond my comprehension.

 

 

 

 

 

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The AC72, AC50 boats' emphasis on grinder power did not help.

The AC75 type boats perhaps have fewer roles predetermined by muscle mass. But then there is the "AC experience" issue.

Who knows what the next Cup class may bring. One hopes.

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20 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

In my view its plain and simple gender apartheid and quotas are an extension of that thinking.

This matter should not be an imposition to be enforced but a broadening of horizons and opportunities to suit both sexes.

Why in the opinion of some it should remain a solely cockeyed male dominated undertaking is well beyond my comprehension.

I would love to agree with you, but unfortunately the reality is different. Actually, it should also be normal and logical that people don't take what isn't theirs. Nevertheless we need laws to enforce this.
In an ideal world, with equal opportunities and good ethics in everyone, we wouldn't have "gender apartheid", but the world is not perfect, so we do. Female persons encounter it every day. So why not enforce equality until reality catches up?

As I said, I'm not a fan of it, but after a hundred-odd years of women's suffrage and decades of women's rights movement, it's about time that things get serious. We've learned that education, good words and asking "pretty please can we too?" won't change a thing - no matter how good or better we are in what we do.

I had hoped that SailGP would change the situation significantly, as well as the EXSS kind of tried, but they're a fail too. It's almost a given that the AC with its traditions, white male/blue blazer, aristocratic flair will not be a pioneer in fostering women's participation on board.

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11 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

The AC72, AC50 boats' emphasis on grinder power did not help.

The AC75 type boats perhaps have fewer roles predetermined by muscle mass. But then there is the "AC experience" issue.

Who knows what the next Cup class may bring. One hopes.

There is an amusing piece I will dig up about how in Fremantle Ian Murray on Kookaburra III went long on brawn and short on skill. 

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34 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

So why not enforce equality until reality catches up?

Didn't work with racial equality say like in the USA so wouldn't hold ones breath thinking it will be all good for sorting gender disparity.

It would be counter intuitive to reach into the social engineering tool box and pull out an approach that unfortunately would reinforce existing bias.

I work in construction and for decades have banged on endlessly for inclusion of women in the industry.

Not strong enough presents as a distraction myths and prejudice abound yet we import dodgy foreign labour in times of workforce shortages and ignore one obvious solution that lays right in front of us.

 

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so which is the better path to having some females onboard ac boats ( given it will be awhile before they can grind at the required wattage output )

50% isnt going to work or be fair .. cause the aforementioned grinders will all be male so that leaves only the tactical roles left .. so males will be effectively excluded from sailing ac boats

is the 49fx the best path ( both the ideas of female only crew and female friendly design )

or

are the nacras a better idea (anyone broken down what the crew positions  have predominantly become if either )

 

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3 minutes ago, phill_nz said:

( given it will be awhile before they can grind at the required wattage output )

Phil I think you are reinforcing an incorrect stereotype.

There are a few more position on these power assisted AC boats other than grunts.

Saying that Mighty Mary laid a few myths to rest.

I am looking at the entire structure / content  of a syndicate of some 150 personnel.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

I am looking at the entire structure / content  of a syndicate of some 150 personnel.

so what are the total number of professional boat designers ( builders assemblers sail designers ie every boatie thing ) divided by the number of female ones .. is that ratio preserved or even bettered in the cup

 

sounds to me you are more interested in what is called positive discrimination .. which is a total misnomer .. there is only discrimination .. its wrong in whatever clothes it wears

it also seems you and i are never going to even get close on this so im out

you believe what you want

 

 

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1 hour ago, phill_nz said:

so change that mindset

dont force teams to use tokenism with their money

all that will happen is they make a position for a fixed rigging trimmer

selection by merit should be selection by merit

if they are capable of pitching for the yankees or throwing for the cowboys they should be doing so .. forcing the yankees or cowboys to use them if they are plainly not capable isnt going to please the fans .. and they are the ones that pay the bills

If the MLB had a requirement for one female per team would it really be the end of baseball? More likely after a few years people would be used to it and it would be an accepted position in it's on right, just like they have designated hitters for pitchers who can bat properly in some leagues and people accept this as normal even thopugh it means some guy who really can't bat is allowed to play a game where everyone is supposed to bat.

The America's Cup performance would move a tiny fraction of a percent (if at all) if each team was required to have one female and yet 50% more young people would have an elite position they could look and say "that could be me!"

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see above

 

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Do we wait till there is a female multibillionaire who says fuck it I am in the afterguard?

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Actually I quite liked VOR approach, women are not imposed to the team, but allow various team arrangements favoring women. AC crew options could become 11M,  10M2F, 9M3F, 8M5F, 7M6F or 6M8F (+ 1 guest for all), crew max weight based on 80kg average for men and 65kg per women or something like that. Teams free to chose whatever combination they want from options. Would probably become a trade off for teams between space, extra crew weight and advantage to have extra roles on board.

Not hard imposed limit and since same options are available to all, that stays fair in my view... It still imply that female sailor are not 1:1 equivalent to male which I don't really like, but that would help build a pool of female sailor with AC experience which is lacking and one of the reason of their absence right now.

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Ummm Phil, I think you're mixing your 470 and your 49'ers

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gahh didnt check googles reply

shoot me

i removed it

 

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even that was wrong you were right i confused them

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It is my belief that these teams would do almost anything within the rules to gain an edge and that would include women if it made them better. Therefore, I believe it is the perfect place to review what barriers exist that make men better than women for this event. Once we fully understand the various reasons and quit inserting our own beliefs we could look at how to allow more women into more places in life through removal of barriers and policy frameworks that could leave room for advantage to using some of their inherent strengths. 

We can make this a more inclusive world by open discourse. 

Suffering is resistance to what is. 

Dan

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C'mon now. 

Why are there no women in the AC sailing teams really?

Old school perception list:

1. Women bleed once a month. It'll attract sharks. 

2. Women get grumpy just before they bleed.

3. Men like women and women like men. They'll be too busy making out to sail.

4. Women are weak physically. 

5. Women have long hair. The hair will get tangled in the winches.

6. Men dont want women to succeed because they're scared women will be better.

7. Women are bitches and should be at home cleaning house and pumping out babies not bilge's.

8. Women follow the rules and are inflexible when it comes to corruption. 

9. Women smell like a wheelie bin in their underpants after a day's sailing.

10. Women are the enemy. 

11. Women complain about being sexually harassed and will cause trouble if you squeeze a tit while under sail - really annoying. 

12. There's no women succeeding at this level so none get selected. 

I dont understand why there are no female sailors in the AC. I just dont. It's time to find talented females and support them to success and push to get them selected. 

The reasons why we need women in the AC.

1. There are none. It is simply a matter of talent. If there's a female good enough then they should be selected.

More than likely it'll be a marketing angle that drives the move to employ female sailors to join the AC elite. That will be a sad day for females in sport. 

 

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On 2/16/2020 at 11:49 AM, Priscilla said:

Didn't work with racial equality say like in the USA so wouldn't hold ones breath thinking it will be all good for sorting gender disparity.

It would be counter intuitive to reach into the social engineering tool box and pull out an approach that unfortunately would reinforce existing bias.

I work in construction and for decades have banged on endlessly for inclusion of women in the industry.

Not strong enough presents as a distraction myths and prejudice abound yet we import dodgy foreign labour in times of workforce shortages and ignore one obvious solution that lays right in front of us.

 

You worked in construction?  Are we talking jackhammers here or, you worked in design or perhaps the office as Administration? 

Also. Two words you should have considered changing before posting.

1. "Banging". This word  means having sexual intercourse in some countries.

2. "Lays". This word means sexual intercourse in some countries. 

The misogynistic types in here will have noticed these words and discounted your posting because of these word choices.

I've employed three female mechanical engineers in my time. All three were equal if not better in skill and workmanship than the rest of the team. They were tough and fought for their positions and didn't once complain about the usual banter that goes on within a shop floor. One of them is a hardened lady who is gay and she punished the men with such beastyness that she was really the alpha male of the shop for a couple of years.

She's now in charge of her own shop in Iowa with 29 staff. We all respect her because of her skills and leadership style. 

There are women out there who function well in this male dominated world. It's the exception that hurts more than the rule. It shouldn't be so in this enlightened era. 

Promote women where they deserve it.

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9 hours ago, Lakrass said:

Actually I quite liked VOR approach, women are not imposed to the team, but allow various team arrangements favoring women. AC crew options could become 11M,  10M2F, 9M3F, 8M5F, 7M6F or 6M8F (+ 1 guest for all), crew max weight based on 80kg average for men and 65kg per women or something like that. Teams free to chose whatever combination they want from options. Would probably become a trade off for teams between space, extra crew weight and advantage to have extra roles on board.

Not hard imposed limit and since same options are available to all, that stays fair in my view... It still imply that female sailor are not 1:1 equivalent to male which I don't really like, but that would help build a pool of female sailor with AC experience which is lacking and one of the reason of their absence right now.

I like this idea, but I suspect the new class has been built/designed around a specific number of people (men).

To get traction, you'd simply make it under-crewed when it was all men: 9M, 8M3F, 7M4F.

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34 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

C'mon now. 

Why are there no women in the AC sailing teams really?

Old school perception list:

1. Women bleed once a month. It'll attract sharks. 

2. Women get grumpy just before they bleed.

3. Men like women and women like men. They'll be too busy making out to sail.

4. Women are weak physically. 

5. Women have long hair. The hair will get tangled in the winches.

6. Men dont want women to succeed because they're scared women will be better.

7. Women are bitches and should be at home cleaning house and pumping out babies not bilge's.

8. Women follow the rules and are inflexible when it comes to corruption. 

9. Women smell like a wheelie bin in their underpants after a day's sailing.

10. Women are the enemy. 

11. Women complain about being sexually harassed and will cause trouble if you squeeze a tit while under sail - really annoying. 

12. There's no women succeeding at this level so none get selected. 

I dont understand why there are no female sailors in the AC. I just dont. It's time to find talented females and support them to success and push to get them selected. 

The reasons why we need women in the AC.

1. There are none. It is simply a matter of talent. If there's a female good enough then they should be selected.

More than likely it'll be a marketing angle that drives the move to employ female sailors to join the AC elite. That will be a sad day for females in sport. 

 

And I bet you happily live your life by those 12 points above, the fact that you even state them says a lot about you as a person fucking arsehole! 

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4 hours ago, danstanford said:

It is my belief that these teams would do almost anything within the rules to gain an edge and that would include women if it made them better. Therefore, I believe it is the perfect place to review what barriers exist that make men better than women for this event. Once we fully understand the various reasons and quit inserting our own beliefs we could look at how to allow more women into more places in life through removal of barriers and policy frameworks that could leave room for advantage to using some of their inherent strengths. 

We can make this a more inclusive world by open discourse. 

Suffering is resistance to what is. 

Dan

In terms of barriers, physical strength has to be significant.  I suspect only the helm and wing trimming positions were able to be crewed by women last time around.  Jo Aleh said as much at the time I think.  Unfortunately this highlights social barriers that are more substantial but actually easier to fix, through a quota type rule.

I do wonder whether a bunch of Italians would counter sign a protocol that proactively enabled female participation. (That's the racist coming out of me) 

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17 minutes ago, mad said:

And I bet you happily live your life by those 12 points above, the fact that you even state them says a lot about you as a person fucking arsehole! 

You're obviously an idiot. Read it again. 

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9 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

In terms of barriers, physical strength has to be significant.  I suspect only the helm and wing trimming positions were able to be crewed by women last time around.  Jo Aleh said as much at the time I think.  Unfortunately this highlights social barriers that are more substantial but actually easier to fix, through a quota type rule.

I do wonder whether a bunch of Italians would counter sign a protocol that proactively enabled female participation. (That's the racist coming out of me) 

Why would they have to sign anything?  There's nothing banning women now. 

A quota is not the way forward. 

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1 hour ago, Salty Seacock said:

You're obviously an idiot. Read it again. 

And yet you offered so much in defence?? 
 

When was the last time you heard those lines? Not in the last few decades I bet. 

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No idea what this is all about, but...

Some of my best friends are females!  :wub:

 

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6 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

No idea what this is all about, but...

Some of my best friends are females!  :wub:

 

It’s Salty, he got called on racism so he’s moved target. 

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7 hours ago, Salty Seacock said:

Why would they have to sign anything?  There's nothing banning women now. 

A quota is not the way forward. 

I disagree,

A quota would definitely be a significant step forward, one female on the boat probably means three females on the sailing team, this cycle alone that would have led to 12 females with significant America's Cup experience (or to put it another way enough to crew an entire boat).

Under your system we will still be facing the same sexist arguments dressed up as a noble merit based system 20 years from now with absolutely no change in female representation in the America's Cup or any other minority for that matter.

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10 hours ago, mad said:

And I bet you happily live your life by those 12 points above, the fact that you even state them says a lot about you as a person fucking arsehole! 

I was thinking the same thing, Mad. It's clear to me where the real modus operandi lies. 

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6 hours ago, Boybland said:

I disagree,

A quota would definitely be a significant step forward, one female on the boat probably means three females on the sailing team, this cycle alone that would have led to 12 females with significant America's Cup experience (or to put it another way enough to crew an entire boat).

Under your system we will still be facing the same sexist arguments dressed up as a noble merit based system 20 years from now with absolutely no change in female representation in the America's Cup or any other minority for that matter.

My daughter reckons a quota or forced reasoning would do more damage for women in sport than good. The conversation got passionate when I raised it with her. Her argument is that it'll only take one team brave enough to break the status quo and then it'll organically grow. I agree with her.

She plays mixed indoor soccer. It's a tough game and the girls certainly compete and do well. 

You raise a good point regarding race too. If you'd told me ten years ago that the Chinese were going to get into sailing and compete on the world's stage I'd have laughed at you. Now, I have nothing but respect at how well they have embraced the sport. 

Is there any men or women of colour at high levels of competitive sailing? I've not really thought about it before. 

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2 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

My daughter reckons a quota or forced reasoning would do more damage for women in sport than good. The conversation got passionate when I raised it with her. Her argument is that it'll only take one team brave enough to break the status quo and then it'll organically grow. I agree with her.

She plays mixed indoor soccer. It's a tough game and the girls certainly compete and do well. 

You raise a good point regarding race too. If you'd told me ten years ago that the Chinese were going to get into sailing and compete on the world's stage I'd have laughed at you. Now, I have nothing but respect at how well they have embraced the sport. 

Is there any men or women of colour at high levels of competitive sailing? I've not really thought about it before. 

The issue with the America's Cup is that it's a singular event, there will never be a meaningful thing as the "Women's America's Cup", just like the "Youth America's Cup" it would only be as a supporting act to the main event.  Most sports aren't like this, it's usually perfectly viable and often preferable to simply allow women their own competition. 

But sailing has a problem here where the America's Cup is considered the pinnacle and due to it's history it's near on impossible to have any alternatives that anyone would actually care about.

So you either force some inclusion or you accept that for the forseeable future it's just going to be mostly priviliged white males who get the opportunity to compete in it, not a great state of affairs if you looking to grow the appeal both of the event itself and sailing in general.

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59 minutes ago, Boybland said:

The issue with the America's Cup is that it's a singular event, there will never be a meaningful thing as the "Women's America's Cup", just like the "Youth America's Cup" it would only be as a supporting act to the main event.  Most sports aren't like this, it's usually perfectly viable and often preferable to simply allow women their own competition. 

But sailing has a problem here where the America's Cup is considered the pinnacle and due to it's history it's near on impossible to have any alternatives that anyone would actually care about.

So you either force some inclusion or you accept that for the forseeable future it's just going to be mostly priviliged white males who get the opportunity to compete in it, not a great state of affairs if you looking to grow the appeal both of the event itself and sailing in general.

Are we really believing then that a Maori or Pacific Islsnder would have no chance rising up through the ranks of dinghy sailing, through multihull sailing and on to 49ers or the like or,  be considered for a spot on an AC boat based on their lineage? 

It is strange that I've not seen any other races except European decent and the odd Chinese at the yacht clubs around Auckland. Theres a few with some colour in their skin but, the vast majority are white middle or upper NZ whites.

Is yachting in New Zealand both sexist and racist? 

I dunno. Theres quite a few females sailing dinghy and keeler boats about. Almost none are anything other than white and from a wealthy family. Not noticed Maori out there.

 

OMFG. Sailing is elitist!

That makes all in here both racist and sexist.

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On 1/28/2020 at 5:45 AM, Schakel said:

Elegant ladies with the auld mug photo's.
At least that what I hope for!
1638209513_cupwithladies.jpg.4a407ab0cd7f79c6a548b639740339d1.jpg
L to R: Bill Lynn, President of the Herreshoff Marine Museum/ACHOF; Karolina Stefanski, Robbe & Berking Ambassador; Dana Coste, Director of Finance & Operations of HMM/ACHoF; and Evelyn Ansel, Curatorial Associate of HMM/ACHoF - Am Cup Hall of Fame.
Americas Cup Hall of Fame

Karolina Stefanski, the Playboy Playmate ?

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8 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Karolina Stefanski, the Playboy Playmate ?

Looks like her, she is the one on the left.
263519783_KarolaStefanskiLeft.jpg.c19db73b83d911cb500c740eb681f9b8.jpg
She was cashing a $80,000 check to herself after her former lover Andrew Oberwager was cheating on her.
And she came away with it; he promised her support for her education.
https://nypost.com/2011/10/03/playboy-gal-hops-off-with-80k-from-ex-boyfriend/

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Takes a team to win. The sailors are the first to say that.
Whilst I agree woman on the boats would be a great thing - based on their ability and skill. Don’t undervalue or under estimate the contribution other women make. 

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You're mixing up the goals chaps...

We're trying to resolve the opposing tensions of 'getting the ball rolling' and 'getting out of the way of the market'...

Best way to do that is quotas for fixed amounts of time.

Eg - "Each boat in the 202X AC shall be 50:50. This rule will expire at the end of that AC cycle, unless there is clear evidence of insufficient improvement in the talent pipeline"

Repeat until fixed, at which point the quota auto-expires

 

 

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The boat crew represents 7% of a AC campaigns personnel @ 150.

Current female campaign participation appears to sit @ less than that percentage.

Change the campaign structure to even up female participation and by osmosis the existing sexism would lose its ugly grip. 

It's not all about the crew on the boat but more about a culture that is out of date and no longer relevant.

 

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so cite the names of those more qualified for the job and applied for it but didnt get it because they were female

 

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Disparate  figures like those above point to a culture.
Until women are given equal opportunities in sport or anything for that matter, they will continue to be underpaid, undervalued and underrated.

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bollocks

your trying to advocate for a form of sexism last seen in the 1800's

any sex based employment decision is wrong

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Total bullshit.

Phil I’m going to give it to you if you hold your breath just for a moment…
I can smell the misogyny on it as you lean forward.

It’s called gender equality.

The state in which access to rights or opportunities is unaffected by gender.

 

 

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yehh right

i just hope my niece never meets anyone like you

she is really bright and capable of anything she puts her mind to .. and would be horrified to think she needed to be a token

 

you may have reasons for being a hater .. im not interested in them

but you are totally wrong to want all women to be tokens .. cause most of the ones i have worked with certainly dont need it

 

ohh yehh and calling me all the buzz words you like wont alter you being wrong .. or me knowing it

 

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Crikey Phil you’ve spilled your cup of reason tonite.

Need a hand?

Just out of interest how exactly  did you extrapolate tokenism out of gender equality.

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3 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Disparate  figures like those above point to a culture.
Until women are given equal opportunities in sport or anything for that matter, they will continue to be underpaid, undervalued and underrated.

Yes, and while you're at it how about requiring all Netball teams are 50/50 male female.

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Just now, robberzdog said:

Yes, and while you're at it how about requiring all Netball teams are 50/50 male female.

Look Phil you have company.

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no

 

your just so obviously wrong

 

 

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On 2/16/2020 at 12:09 PM, phill_nz said:

it also seems you and i are never going to even get close on this so im out

You came back and brought nothing now that’s being selfish.

Come on Phil answer the question.

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wow talk about embittered

i guess the same reason still applies

its like talking to a female trump

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3 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Total bullshit.

Phil I’m going to give it to you if you hold your breath just for a moment…
I can smell the misogyny on it as you lean forward.

It’s called gender equality.

The state in which access to rights or opportunities is unaffected by gender.

 

 

I employ 30 people and the ratio is not 50-50, more like 20-10 male to female. Gender is related to roles inasmuch as we find qualified and skilled candidates split along the kinds of roles. In our skilled manufacturing areas (cabinetmakers), I only have one woman yet our design and administration has only one man. I steadfastly judge candidates on merit and would love to have more gender equality but the quality of our workforce would be harmed if I imposed equal numbers based on gender in either department. 

We don't see balance in applicants nor do we see  sufficient opportunities to develop people in a pro-active way in pursuit of this balance. I have a daughter, a daughter-in-law, and 3 granddaughters who I support in any way I can to be anything they want to be, but I do hope they never have to feel like they are helped on their way for anything other than their own merits. Based on my many years in the working world, and recognizing my privilege, I do not expect them to be discriminated against on the basis of their gender though they may have to rise above assumptions about them based on their gender. Girls are really cool.

There are bigots, cheats, misogynists,  crooks, and misandrists in this world for sure, but they are not representative of the current working world as I know it.

Dan 

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1 hour ago, danstanford said:

We don't see balance in applicants nor do we see  sufficient opportunities to develop people in a pro-active way in pursuit of this balance. I have a daughter, a daughter-in-law, and 3 granddaughters who I support in any way I can to be anything they want to be, but I do hope they never have to feel like they are helped on their way for anything other than their own merits. Based on my many years in the working world, and recognizing my privilege, I do not expect them to be discriminated against on the basis of their gender though they may have to rise above assumptions about them based on their gender. Girls are really cool.

Gender bias starts before a child is born and is inherent in almost every decision made for them, such as clothing, toys, language and expectations. Redressing deeply entrenched bias when a person has reached 20 years old or so requires a significant amount of positive action.

I can highly recommend watching the series No More Boys and Girls - Can Our Kids Go Gender Free, it will open your eyes to just how  biased society is in its treatment of boys and girls. The title is provocative and challenging, as is the content of the series, but stick with it and you'll learn something.

In one experiment, experienced child carers were asked to care for a 1 year old child on a mat strewn with toys. They invariably offered the child dressed as a boy toys that most people would associate with boys: trucks, balls, construction blocks, etc. The child dressed as a girl was offered girl toys such as dolls and drawing equipment. When asked why, they said "because the child wanted them" and were amazed to find the children had been cross–dressed, so the bias for toys was entirely the carer's.

The next time you're in a group with your grandchildren, take note of how differently the boys and girls are treated by adults and think "this is how they have been subconsciously conditioned for their entire lives by every single adult they know" and you will start to understand.

 

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27 minutes ago, RobG said:

Gender bias starts before a child is born and is inherent in almost every decision made for them, such as clothing, toys, language and expectations. Redressing deeply entrenched bias when a person has reached 20 years old or so requires a significant amount of positive action.

I can highly recommend watching the series No More Boys and Girls - Can Our Kids Go Gender Free, it will open your eyes to just how  biased society is in its treatment of boys and girls. The title is provocative and challenging, as is the content of the series, but stick with it and you'll learn something.

In one experiment, experienced child carers were asked to care for a 1 year old child on a mat strewn with toys. They invariably offered the child dressed as a boy toys that most people would associate with boys: trucks, balls, construction blocks, etc. The child dressed as a girl was offered girl toys such as dolls and drawing equipment. When asked why, they said "because the child wanted them" and were amazed to find the children had been cross–dressed, so the bias for toys was entirely the carer's.

The next time you're in a group with your grandchildren, take note of how differently the boys and girls are treated by adults and think "this is how they have been subconsciously conditioned for their entire lives by every single adult they know" and you will start to understand.

 

100 times this. This (subconscious) bias continues when HR people hire staff, when supervisors hand out tasks, when meetings are moderated...
Nobody can tell a woman that professional choices, careers and success are mostly merit based. Au contraire, gender stereotype often outweighs merit on a professional level. Women have to do a lot better than men to get to get the same professional standing (and if they're lucky, the same pay). NB, there are exceptions and companies with good gender policies, diversity approaches and a strong employee representation out there, but they are not the norm.

Plus, female attributes are still widely regarded as inferior. "Don't behave like a pussy" = coward, "You fight like a girl" = weak, "What a c#nt"... Sound familiar? 
The same mechanism applies to job choices: While women try to get into "classic male" jobs (engineering, IT, construction, automotive), men rarely strive to become nurses, kindergarten teachers, carer for the elderly...

We've still got a loooong way to go, in spite of all the good, meaningful and commendable exceptions.

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you dont get rid of sexism .. by ... being more sexist .. which is the road silly sindy wants to take

 

we have a long way to go in so many things .. one more doesnt add a burden at all .. hell one day we may even treat each other and the planet with respect .. no matter what mood colour size or shape it / they are in ( we still havnt got the dont kill each other thing right yet )

kids will tell you what pathway they are interested in nowadays .. and it brooks fewer reactions that non typical pathways did in the past .. so we are advancing

it also seems that men solely get the wrap for enforcing gender stereotypical behaviors onto females /.. thats also wrong .. it came / comes from both men and women ( eg fgm and its adherence and practice by who ) 

sexism in any form is wrong

 

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^ Because you can label one of the proven methods for addressing sexism 'sexism' you deny it's applicability.

Other society ills, say theft or dangerous driving are tackled using all  available methods, from education to incarceration, who quibbles?

But an ill that adversely affects society as a whole, as well as directly impacting 50% of the individuals within it, "Hey what can ya do?"

Yeah right......

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5 hours ago, phill_nz said:

you dont get rid of sexism .. by ... being more sexist .. which is the road silly sindy wants to take

Phil the Prime Minister Sindy sorry Silly Sindy would like to agree that sexism in any form is wrong.

D69B28D4-AF5C-47CF-BC0B-18BF30FCD779.thumb.jpeg.474b04c1f7c11b4992177ccf8eb1a7a2.jpeg

 

You’re continually reinforcing stereotypes in a weird subconscious way.

 

 

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That's some pretty solid "I'm right = you're wrong" forum shouting there chaps.... defiantly going to come up with something useful that way :lol:

@phill_nz - sexism sucks, and adding more sucks too... but the job isn't getting done and to your question of 'show me the list of qualified women who didn't get the job' the problem is that they aren't there to apply in the first place...

@Priscilla - blanket quotas for unending periods of time rightly turns off plenty of the people it would be aimed at helping. The brightest and best rarely want a hand out...

 

So, on the basis that nothing would be perfect, for me the only way to sort this is (again) with Auto Expiring Quotas aimed at clear problem areas... they're in place, and then they're not unless the job is not demonstrably done.

 

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So we can strike off Salty's list easily enough with a single example of the wider sailing world- Ellen MacArthur. In probably the toughest branch of the sport she beat all men at their own game. Anyone who wants to repeat any of Salty's list who hasn't raced single handed round the world in one of those ridiculous machines can go take a running jump into the southern ocean,

So why do we have such an imbalance? I think it starts early. For comparison look at the date of birth of players in the English football premier league schooled in England. I can't remember the exact number but it is roughly 50% are born in the first 3 months of the school year. Why? Because when young, those kids are on average 6 months older than the rest of their cohort. SO they are on average stronger and faster. So they get the confidence, the encouragement and the training so even once that advantage disappears, they are still dominant. (IIRC its even worse in the US football championships).

Now translate that to girls, who when young are smaller and less strong than their mail counterparts-  by as much as 2 years by some estimates. Any wonder they don't do as well sailing (for example) Lasers. SO they get less confidence, less encouragement to continue, so when we are looking for the superstars, we have already lost too high a proportion of those girls to have as much chance of finding one.

So to my mind that's where we need to address the imbalance (though by what means I am not sure). It will take a while, but only then will we truly address it

 

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