Starboard!!

Brokers - worth it? (probably)

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From time to time people bitch about boat brokers and voice this idea that they'll save money by cutting them out -- like this guy who wants to buy an unlisted J/105 (good luck).

On 12/19/2019 at 4:49 PM, marcus brutus said:

Because :

I am more than sufficiently experienced in purchasing and selling boats,

most of the J/105 listings are available on the internet,

and 

I do not want to pay a higher price due to broker's commission.

Having said that, I would consider paying broker a finders fee if and when I purchased a boat that he/she found for me.

This is bunk. As a buyer, skipping the broker you won't get a lower price for reasons mostly having to do with psychology and market economics that are out of your control.

1. Market size. By cutting out the broker-sold boats, you're restricting yourself to a much smaller market. Even if you were saving the broker premium (you are not -- see below), is it really worth saving 10% to miss out on the best boats?  Buyers gain the most when they can force sellers to compete, simple supply/demand.

2. Market sets price, not brokers.  Any reasonable seller (do those exist?) is going to match his asking price to whatever the market price is -- and the market price is generally set by the broker-listed bosts on Yachtworld. No seller says... "I'll cut out the broker, do extra work myself, and pass on those savings to the buyer".  No, every one of them is thinking "I'll pocket that 10% difference."  At best, the "deal" you get is that they knock 10% off the listing price and that's the no-broker discount.  But realistic sellers price in room to negotiate anyway, so you're really only getting the same deal any broker-listed boat would have give you.

3. Avoiding the Cheap Bastards. Sellers who want to avoid a broker are the cheapest and most unreasonable people out there. These are the math geniuses who would rather pay years of slip fees than give a broker the satisfaction of clawing one dime from their sale. And you think they are going to give you a deal? Ha!  These guys are going to nickle & dime you every step of the way and almost certainly cheaped out on maintenance too. Unrepresented sellers are a market-signaling mechanism you want to pay attention to -- and you are trying to seek them out!?!

4. Getting to a realistic price. Relates to #3 above. Even if the seller isn't a cheap bastard, buying from sellers without a broker is an exercise in frustration, because they don't have access to the actual sold prices and they get fixated instead on matching the Yachtworld list prices (which are well above sale prices) or getting back the money they put into the boat (they won't, ever).  Plus brokers know what actually adds value to a transaction (clean empty boat, no visible damage, new bottom paint) vs. what doesn't (the $12k topside paint)  As a buyer, do you have the time to wait for the seller to come to those realizations? It might take years.

5. Logistics. Not a small issue -- it's very frustrating to try buy a boat from someone who isn't there and can't show it to you. Or who doesn't know how to write a contract, won't respond to email/phone, or worse yet, shows up and talks your ear off for hours when you go to see the boat. Brokers (mostly) get it -- you are there to see a bunch of boats quickly. Not hear the seller's life story or run a missing-persons case.  Buying from a good broker also somewhat diminishes the risk of a nasty surprise at the end, where there's undisclosed problems with the title. (Every broker I've sold through required me to provide them a clean title first.)

...I know this won't convince the zealots but might spark interesting conversation.

 

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Boat prices are determined by market conditions, not who is handling the sale.

Brokerage boats don't cost more, the seller gets less.

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Brokers get a bad name for suggetsing to an owner to inflate the price, wait for the right buyer. The broker wants the listing so he makes the buyer think there is more to be had. Just like a hot housing market.

Owners often are on a fishing trip, nothing the broker will bring them is enough. (wife made them list it).

Brokers can also be really lazy about lower end boats, its commission money , sell the 300 or 45K boat? which gets more attention from the broker?

 

Good reasons to use a broker, they are chasing deposits and closing money, owner ship transfers and taxes. Talking with all the idiots that "dream about" boats, weeding out dum dums and freeing you up to keep on wityh life.

They also know a LOT of people, other brokers, people that may be intersted in what your selling. That has value.

Sometimes boats sell them selves. sometimes its a lot of work. I know who I'd rather have doing all the work.  

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What a dumb conversation. Brokers are like SA posters.  There are good ones and bad ones.
Let Brutus set up a some appointments that get canceled, or waste time and money traveling to look at a boat the owner 
badly mis-described. Depends on how much your time is worth I guess.   

 

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Boat prices are determined by market conditions, not who is handling the sale.

Brokerage boats don't cost more, the seller gets less.

I agree with your first paragraph and part of your second paragraph that says "the seller gets less".

Brokerage boats cost more because the purchase price that the seller pays includes broker's commission.

My opinions are based on facts; every boat that I purchased and every boat that I sold were without using a broker.

In each case my sale price was greater than my purchase price; sometimes significantly greater because I exercised due diligence, negotiating skills, and eliminated broker fees.

Having said that, I would consider paying broker a finders fee if and when I purchased a boat that he/she found for me.

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at some point.., the value gets too low for brokers to be involved.

J/105's are pretty close to that point.

 

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10 minutes ago, marcus brutus said:

I agree with your first paragraph and part of your second paragraph that says "the seller gets less".

Brokerage boats may cost more because the purchase price that the seller pays includes broker's commission.

My opinions are based on facts; every boat that I purchased and every boat that I sold were without using a broker.

In each case my sale price was greater than my purchase price; sometimes significantly greater because I exercised due diligence, negotiating skills, and eliminated broker fees.

Having said that, I would consider paying broker a finders fee if and when I purchased a boat that he/she found for me.

it doesn't take brain surgery to do what a good broker does.  It takes basic intelligence, lots of time and good contact management.  Of course a broker is superfluous if you have enough of those.

 

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15 minutes ago, marcus brutus said:

Having said that, I would consider paying broker a finders fee if and when I purchased a boat that he/she found for me.

So you will pay your own broker to help you, but just flat out won't buy a boat that's represented by another broker?  Why do you care how the seller uses his his proceeds, that's just dumb.

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7 minutes ago, Starboard!! said:

So you will pay your own broker to help you, but just flat out won't buy a boat that's represented by another broker?  Why do you care how the seller uses his his proceeds, that's just dumb.

Your response indicates lack of basic English language and Arithmetic understanding.

Where in my post did I say that I "won't buy a boat that's represented by another broker"?

As for "how the seller uses his his proceeds", I do not care as long as the selling price is not inflated to cover seller's brokerage fee.

Bottom line for the seller is how much of the sale price stays in his pocket.

Capiche?

ca·peesh
/kəˈpēSH/
exclamation
INFORMALUS
exclamation: capiche
  1. do you understand?

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Any brokers who listed my boat weren't able to generate a thing.  The best and quickest response and eventual sale was done when I took out an ad on SA and it was gone within about 2 weeks.

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45 minutes ago, marcus brutus said:

Your response indicates lack of basic English language and Arithmetic understanding.

and how's your search for a J/105 coming along?

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Brokers don't sell boats, boats sell boats. Maintenance sells boats. Presentation sells boats. Brokers fill out paperwork and beg buyers to name a lower price so they can get the boat off their books.

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6 minutes ago, RantyDave said:

Brokers don't sell boats, boats sell boats. Maintenance sells boats. Presentation sells boats. Brokers fill out paperwork and beg buyers to name a lower price so they can get the boat off their books.

Could agree more. But most sellers won't lower the price enough to make a sale. As a buyer, I'd prefer to to deal with brokerered boats, b/c then there's someone who can tell the unrealistic seller to drop that price, that this is the best offer he's going to get.

 

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1 hour ago, Starboard!! said:

and how's your search for a J/105 coming along?

Really well even without brokers help; thanks for asking.

 

1 hour ago, Starboard!! said:

Could agree more. But most sellers won't lower the price enough to make a sale. As a buyer, I'd prefer to to deal with brokerered boats, b/c then there's someone who can tell the unrealistic seller to drop that price, that this is the best offer he's going to get.

 

If you are claiming that when the terms of a prudent listing agreement allow the owner to sell his boat to a buyer who had no contact with the broker without paying commission, the seller will refuse to discount the price by the amount of what would have been broker's commission, usually 10% of the asking price, just illustrates the idiom that "a fool and his money are soon parted".

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6 minutes ago, marcus brutus said:

Really well even without brokers help; thanks for asking.

 

If you are claiming that when the terms of a prudent listing agreement allow the owner to sell his boat to a buyer who had no contact with the broker without paying commission, the seller will refuse to discount the price by the amount of what would have been broker's commission, usually 10% of the asking price, just illustrates the idiom that "a fool and his money are soon parted". 

Yes, you illustrate that idiom well... If you think that getting a 10% discount off listing price is a "good deal" b/c you went around the broker, then you deserve to get taken, over and over.  Unless you are completely incompetent at negotiating (seeming more and more likely), you should be able to get at least a 10% off the listing price of just about any used boat.  

 

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Ironically, that's not an idiom, it's an axiom.  

9 minutes ago, marcus brutus said:

illustrates the idiom that "a fool and his money are soon parted".

 

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2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Ironically, that's not an idiom, it's an axiom.  

i would probably call it an aphorism

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To take this out of theoretical... There's 23 J/105s listed on Yachtworld right now, ranging in price from 38-82k, with most in the low 60s. I'm guessing that decent ones w/sail inventory are actually transacting in the high 50s, but just a guess.  And I bet all 23 of those sellers are tired of getting emails asking for 10% off to cut their broker out of the deal.

But that's fine, you sound like a twat and I like j105 racing, so I hope you keep at it and don't joint the fleet.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, us7070 said:

i would probably call it an aphorism

It could be called either correctly.  Only a fool would call it an idiom though.

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4 minutes ago, Starboard!! said:

To take this out of theoretical... There's 23 J/105s listed on Yachtworld right now, ranging in price from 38-82k, with most in the low 60s. I'm guessing that decent ones w/sail inventory are actually transacting in the high 50s, but just a guess.  And I bet all 23 of those sellers are tired of getting emails asking for 10% off to cut their broker out of the deal.

But that's fine, you sound like a twat and I like j105 racing, so I hope you keep at it and don't joint the fleet.

There you go again; why am I not surprised that you purposely misrepresent most of what I post.

It is you who is a self centered twat just like Trump, pushing your ideology to the limit at the expense of not adding another active boat to a J/105 racing fleet.

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4 minutes ago, marcus brutus said:

There you go again; why am I not surprised that you purposely misrepresent most of what I post.

It is you who is a self centered twat just like Trump, pushing your ideology to the limit at the expense of not adding another active boat to a J/105 racing fleet.

Oh no, you called me a Tump supporter (I'm not), you win the internet!  As the sole gatekeeper of the J/105 fleet, you have my blessing...

Just wait until you find out that the sailmakers are paid on commission too!  I bet North's factory in UT is looking forward to your calls, offering to cut out the local sail-loft for a 10% discount.

 

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Is there any way to find actual sold for data without using a broker? It seems a lot easier to list a boat without a broker because you can find comps that are listed for sale. As a buyer, it's difficult to put together an offer without knowing what similar boats are recently being sold for.

Brokers are helpful for a bunch of previously listed reasons but up to each individual on how much time they are willing to devote and value they place on those services. For me, it's worth it. 

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2 minutes ago, LG1Nebs said:

Is there any way to find actual sold for data without using a broker?

Not really, and most buyers prefer to keep the purchase price confidential for various reasons.

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3 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Not really, and most buyers prefer to keep the purchase price confidential for various reasons.

What's worse is that all your friends relentlessly lie about how much they paid and how much they sold it for.  Everyone I know claims to have made money selling a boat. Ha

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48 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

what's a Buyer's Premium Fee?

 

And I only get charged Intl wire transfers $15 at my bank. This outfit sounds like they are selling used cars in a bad part of town.
Sounds like he was  back office in a law firm with document management expertise :)  

 

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I have used a broker (I know a few, all are great guys) in the past and have sold boats with out them.  I can tell you for the most part consider the commission a don't have to deal with cheap idiot buyers fee.  Its worth every penny.  If you ask about the ones I didn't use a broker on it was either I was young and stupid or a Melges 24 those bitches just sell themselves when you take care of them, then I regret selling it an buy another.  Shit I may be a idiot buyer?  

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

what's a Buyer's Premium Fee?

 

Screen Shot 2020-01-28 at 5.35.15 PM.png

I think its an insurance company’s salvage broker of some sort. Still a 6% fee beats 10% that brokers charge, though in this case the buyer pays... and no takers, “Singularity” has been on the market since 2018... though for good reason.

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Ironically, that's not an idiom, it's an axiom.  

2 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

illustrates the idiom that "a fool and his money are soon parted".

Or in that particular case, a comment on personal experience?

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Used one that always wanted to show me boats at least 50% over my top price. Got pissed at me for immediately making an offer at this price. Told him to stop being a cunt and I would do the same.

Guy that found my boat listened and found the perfect one at a suitable price. So like everywhere, good and bad.

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Ironically, that's not an idiom, it's an axiom.  

2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Ironically, that's not an idiom, it's an axiom.  

 

You should have checked this link 

https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/a+fool+and+his+money+are+soon+parted

before taking your brainiac  victory lap.

 

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2 hours ago, Starboard!! said:
2 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

There you go again; why am I not surprised that you purposely misrepresent most of what I post.

It is you who is a self centered twat just like Trump, pushing your ideology to the limit at the expense of not adding another active boat to a J/105 racing fleet.

Oh no, you called me a Tump supporter (I'm not), you win the internet!  As the sole gatekeeper of the J/105 fleet, you have my blessing...

Just wait until you find out that the sailmakers are paid on commission too!  I bet North's factory in UT is looking forward to your calls, offering to cut out the local sail-loft for a 10% discount.

It is obvious that you are still having major problems with English language and comprehension.

I plainly stated that you were "a self centered twat just like Trump" not a "Trump supporter".

Don't worry about the sails; as a sailmaker rep I get them at 5-10% above cost.  

As a reminder; it is not I who started this thread and I have never stated that boat brokers should not be employed by those who need and want them.

So do your thing !

 

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7 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

it doesn't take brain surgery to do what a good broker does.  It takes basic intelligence, lots of time and good contact management.  Of course a broker is superfluous if you have enough of those.

 

And that's what you are buying Clean, their time, their contacts and their experience.

Like the old guy who fixed a troublesome engine with a mysterious fault in 5 minutes and presented a USD1,000 bill. When the engine owner complained that 1,000 bucks was a lot of money for 5 minutes work the old guy replied that it was 5 bucks for the time to fix and 995 bucks for the 20 years experience that told him where to look.

I have bought and sold a fair number of boats over the years, some through a broker and some privately, and depending on the value you put on your own time and stress levels the end result is about the same.

Of course there are good brokers and not so good brokers. The ones that have been a round a while are usually the former in my experience. They are usually the ons with things like escrow accounts to protect your money and experience of solid pro-forma contracts to protect both parties etc and many other elements. 

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4 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

 

Don't worry about the sails; as a sailmaker rep I get them at 5-10% above cost.  

 

 

https://polysail.com/

OMG OMG OMG  u r duh greatest eva

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6 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

what's a Buyer's Premium Fee?

 

Screen Shot 2020-01-28 at 5.35.15 PM.png

I think that is just a different way to calculate commission isn't it Clean? Instead of the seller getting 8% less than asking price (don't know where the posters above are getting their 10% broker's fee from) the buyer pays 6% more than the asking price. Accounting in the same way as most high end auction houses.

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4 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

 

Don't worry about the sails; as a sailmaker rep I get them at 5-10% above cost.  

 

 

So on 20/12/2019 you said you didn't want to pay commission (start of this thread) and now you say you expect to be paid commission unless you are habitually passing on the just 5-10% margin on the sails you get as a sails-rep to YOUR customers.

Mmm - interesting philosophy

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Not worth it as a vendor. Almost all boats are found by buyers on line these days.

Assume 10% commission.  They will still want to list it at the price you suggest.  Say $500K for this example.

The purchaser will still offer say $400K whether you have a broker or not.   Which let's say is the right price.

The broker will try to drive you down to that price which nett gives you $360K compared to $400K if you don't have a broker. Even if you sold it for $380K you are still ahead.

I would rather give the discount to the buyer and not feed the broker.

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I've sold all my boats without brokers directly on websites, Apollo Duck (at least in Europe) being by far the most successful. 
They sold because they were well maintained (important when probably 80% of the old boats on the market are shit heaps that haven't been worked on for years, at least at the smaller end of the market), well presented (no water in the bilges, clean decks & cabin, doesn't smell), and offered at a fair price. 

IMO, Its better to accept a reasonable offer than hold out for months waiting for someone to pay top money, all the while the boat needs maintaining and you still need to pay to keep it. 

I've bought boats from individuals & brokers and honestly I can't say that it made a difference either way, certainly the brokers made no effort to ensure that the boats were clean & presentable, I'm not sure how they justified their fee but presumably whoever was selling though they were worthwhile. 

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The way brokers influence a market has been studied extensively in the housing market.

A broker's main motivation is to get a commission. This translates into a strong motivation to make sure a sale goes through. More sales=more commissions works better than higher priced sails=more commissions. There's simply less incentive for a broker to get the last 1% in sales price for their clients.

That may be why so many people state here that boats offered through brokers aren't really more expensive.

If you sell your own boat (or house), you can't make it up by volume. That may tempt you to maximize the price you get (more than a broker would recommend). And that may be an issue.

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3 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

 

 

Ha ha! - Nice try except I'm not a Chinaman! Are you a Roman? - doubtful!

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Sorry Marcus, but you did lead with your chin a bit there. Nothing personal, just sport

It is funny though, when a lawyer sells us some of his time - no problem.

When a grocer sells us our weekly groceries and makes a margin - no problem.

BUT when a salesman (or a broker which is just a fancy name for a salesman) sells us something and makes a commission (just another form of margin) it suddenly becomes a dirty business.

It would be hypocritical of me to knock you for making a commission on the sails you are a rep for, I have sold a few hundred k myself and have been in sales for the past 40 years.

If a commission salesman sells nothing for a couple of months they don't eat. If a salaried salesman sells nothing for a couple of months they don't eat the next month (they would be out of a job).

Not a lot of difference really.

And if people wanted to spend their time selling their boats themselves there would be no market for brokers but as there are an awful lot of brokers out there then clearly an heck of a lot of people don't want to sell their boats themselves.  Logic really.

They pay their money (or not) and takes their choice. It's up to them.

 

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5 hours ago, VWAP said:

https://polysail.com/

OMG OMG OMG  u r duh greatest eva

Apologies for the thread drift, but Brutis, you are in for a shock if you’re planning to use your Polysails on a J/105... first time seen a “sailmaker”(?) compare their product as (paraphrasing) “better than a tarp” and “you can sew it if you feel like it but we just tape it” or my personal fav, that the sails float, no need for a pfd!

Some gems from their website... 

  1. Low cost and ease of replacement (Our kits start at $64.95)
  2. Strength and light weight (We’ve climbed onto one of our small triangular sails suspended from the three corners to see if it would stretch out of shape. It didn’t.)
  3. Resistance to water, rot, and sunlight (We’ve used our white poly laminate for boat covers for in South Florida for four years. Unlike most tarps, they don’t disintegrate in a season or two.)
  4. Safety factor (Unlike most sail materials, poly laminate sails float because they are about 10% less dense than water making it difficult for a boat equipped with PolySails to turn upside down.)
  5. Speed and simplicity of construction (Poly laminate sails can be taped rather than sewn, but the material sews easily if you want to reinforce edges and corners, add battens, include windows, or sew around the perimeter as the adhesives eventually loosen.)
  6. Opportunity to experiment with different sail shapes, colors, and sizes (See our library of PolySail photos for sail and trim colors and ideas you might want to adapt to your PolySails.)
  7. Appearance and performance that rivals Dacron sails (While we know of few head-to-head comparisons, we know that you won’t be embarrassed by sailors flying similar sails that are made professionally from Dacron or other sail materials based on the few competitions we do know about. Often it’s the other guy who gets embarrassed.)
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7 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

So on 20/12/2019 you said you didn't want to pay commission (start of this thread) and now you say you expect to be paid commission unless you are habitually passing on the just 5-10% margin on the sails you get as a sails-rep to YOUR customers.

Mmm - interesting philosophy

If I find myself needing to buy sails made from recycled Hefty  bags I will buy them directly and not pay the 5-10 pct sales commission that goes to Brutus. 

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8 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

I think that is just a different way to calculate commission isn't it Clean? Instead of the seller getting 8% less than asking price (don't know where the posters above are getting their 10% broker's fee from) the buyer pays 6% more than the asking price. Accounting in the same way as most high end auction houses.

Just because there is a buyers premium  doesn’t mean there isn’t also a sales commission. 

Like this guy’s dream 

https://boathouseauctions.com/

13 hours ago, Controversial_posts said:

I think its an insurance company’s salvage broker of some sort. Still a 6% fee beats 10% that brokers charge, though in this case the buyer pays... and no takers, “Singularity” has been on the market since 2018... though for good reason.

 

Just because there is a buyers premium  doesn’t mean there isn’t also a sales commission. 

Like this guy. 

https://boathouseauctions.com/

 

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20 hours ago, us7070 said:

at some point.., the value gets too low for brokers to be involved.

J/105's are pretty close to that point.

 

I just sold my 14k J/27.  Considering a broker wasn't an option seeing there just wouldn’t be much left after they took their commission.  In the end, I sold the boat for full asking price. Not because I’m a super seller or marketer, but the boat showed well and could not be duplicated for the price I was asking.

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Sold 3 boats, two with a broker, one without.

First boat was <3k, obviously cash-in-hand, advertised on CL. Worked just fine, in retrospect could have priced higher judging from the buyer interest. Got multiple angry calls/texts from some guy in Georgia who was incensed that I hadn't "held it for him" after I spoke briefly on the phone, once. Claimed that he'd bought a trailer for it expecting that it would be available when he moved up here in a month...Finally blocked his number.

2nd boat, 50k, Sat for months, pretty sure the broker never showed it to anyone until I rented a slip at the biggest yard in Annapolis (and next to his office). Soon as I moved it up there, what do you know, had showings and it was under contract that weekend. Lesson learned, make things easy for your broker...

3rd boat sale, 100k+ I went ahead and moved the boat to the same boatyard (cost about $1k / month), made it immaculate, and priced it very aggressively.  After 2 months, still no offers and I was tempted to start cutting the price but the broker talked me out of it. Ended up getting an offer through a buyer's broker who worked at the same brokerage as my broker. At the sea trial, wouldn't you know it, the AC wouldn't start -- never happened before. Buyers looked like they might walk, but the broker grabbed some tools from the office, dissembled some stuff and brought it up to the yard, and we got it flushed and working.  Buyers were also very inexperienced, so having him there to hold their hand when their surveyor was pointing out every insignificant item was pretty helpful.

All that said... I paid more to the boat brokers than I did to my agent when selling a house that cost 7 times more... The market needs flexibility in commission structure. If I'm a serious seller and put the time in to make the boat show well, fix the obvious problems, and price it aggressively, then knock a couple points off the commission, say if it sells within the first 3 months. But I'm stubborn and want to price it 50k above market and it sits for 2 years, then charge me 10% for the privilege.

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17 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

You should have checked this link 

https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/a+fool+and+his+money+are+soon+parted

before taking your brainiac  victory lap.

Just because you can find something on the internet doesn't mean you are right.  Idiom has zero to do with axiom (or aphorism), which you have already learned by reading actual dictionary definitions (not the "Idiom" section on a website). Learn to accept your wrongness, it's liberating.

 

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1 hour ago, Starboard!! said:

The market needs flexibility in commission structure. If I'm a serious seller and put the time in to make the boat show well, fix the obvious problems, and price it aggressively, then knock a couple points off the commission, say if it sells within the first 3 months. But I'm stubborn and want to price it 50k above market and it sits for 2 years, then charge me 10% for the privilege.

You can bake in whatever commission structure you can agree with your broker on.  I've seen a number of different formulae.  

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8 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Ha ha! - Nice try except I'm not a Chinaman! Are you a Roman? - doubtful!

You never miss an opportunity to miss a point; the joke was about a man's wife having experienced boinking one or multiple Chinese men .

8 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

 

 

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8 minutes ago, marcus brutus said:

You never miss an opportunity to miss a point; the joke was about a man's wife having experienced boinking one or multiple Chinese men .

 

My favorite jokes are the kind where you have to explain them...

But onto a separate topic... was hoping you could help me out with my mainsail trim. I ordered one of your polysails... is this how it's supposed to look? 

 

Polysail.png

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