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Chapter Four

Rules -Tacking at the Windward mark

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Scenario - Off the beach boats (dinghys), . Starboard Course, 0.5 knot tidal current going in the same direction as the wind. Wind 8 knots

I'm coming in on Port, just laying the windward mark. Call me boat B. 

Boat A is 2 boat lengths clear ahead on Port tack also, but to leward and pinching to make the mark, he's slower than me and I can see he's not going to make it, due to the tide.

Boat A reaches the zone still clear ahead. At the mark Boat A attempts a down speed tack to starboard. Boat B clears boat A's bow and the mark and sails off. Boat A hails protest.

Boat A claims he had had completed his tack and had to luff to avoid hitting Boat B. Boat B doesn't think Boat A completed his tack.

I'm generally OK with Rule 18 and mark room, but I'm not sure on this one.

Is he entitled to room if he's tacking in the zone? Does that even matter?

How do we apply Rule 10 and 18 here?

 

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If Boat A had passed Head To Wind, then rule 18 does not apply.

 

18.1 Rule 18 ...does not apply:

(a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,
(b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the
mark for one but not both of them is to tack,

When A passed HTW as part of his tack, he is on starboard and you are on port.. You are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward.Furthermore, the proper course at the mark will be for A to tack back onto port to round the mark

The following rules do apply

Rule 13:  If A had not completed his tack then he has to keep clear.

Rule 10 : If A had completed his tack and reached close hauled course, then B has to keep clear of A.

However

Rule 15 : When A completes his tack, he has initially to give B room to keep clear.

If A had completed his tack, and after he completed his tack, there was space for you to respond by tacking and keeping clear, but you failed to keep clear and he genuinely had to luff to avoid then you broke 10.  However if he luffed because if he had held his course there was no way to avoid him....then his luff was him complying with rule 15.

In the room, he cannot get dsq because  he kept clear. There is a risk for you because if he can show that he completed his tack and there was room for you to keep clear without any need for you to start altering course until he had completed his tack.  The moment he completes his tack is key for you.

 

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This isn't a rule 18 deal.  This is a simple P/S.  He's saying he had to change course to avoid you.  You were on port....

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30 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

This isn't a rule 18 deal.  This is a simple P/S.  He's saying he had to change course to avoid you.  You were on port....

It would be simple if the other boat was on starboard. That is up for debate. Did he go thru the wind to his proper course then luff to avoid? 

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50 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

This isn't a rule 18 deal.  This is a simple P/S.  He's saying he had to change course to avoid you.  You were on port....

Even if it wasn't a simple port/starboard situation, the faster boat to windward overtaking the slower boat must keep clear. Also must take steps to avoid collision.

(Be good to know the relative boat speeds to complete the picture.)

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8 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Even if it wasn't a simple port/starboard situation, the faster boat to windward overtaking the slower boat must keep clear. Also must take steps to avoid collision.

(Be good to know the relative boat speeds to complete the picture.)

Yes a windward overlapped boat must keep clear of a leeward boat

Yes a clear astern boat on the same tack must keep clear of a clear ahead boat.

In the description above, there is nothing to suggest that while overlapped on the same tack B did not keep clear of A, or while clear astern B did not keep clear of A.

 

The only thing suggested here is that A believes that she was on stb tack, had reached her close hauled course on stb tack, an then had to change course to avoid B.

B does not believe that A completed her tack before she had to try to keep clear

This is a P/S issue with a possible dose of R13 and R15 to complicate things.

VMK's  analysis is pretty much spot on.

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7 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

VMK's  analysis is pretty much spot on.

I missed that analysis, and can't see it above. Does VMK go by another name? (Mambo King?)

If I was on the jury hearing this, I'd want to know the speed and distances of the boats throughout the incident.

 

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I think there are three critical questions the PC would need to resolve. Both boats would need to consider what evidence they'd present to make their cases.

1. Did A reach her close-hauled course on starboard? (If yes, rule 10 applies, if not then rule 13)

2. If yes, after A reached her close-hauled course did B initially have room to avoid her by maneuvering promptly in a seamanlike way, which could include a quick tack? (rule 15)

3. If A completed her tack and initially gave room for B to avoid contact (so it's a straight rule 10), did A have a reasonable apprehension of contact and alter her course to avoid B? (case 50 places a pretty severe burden on the port tacker)

As for rule 18, A is ROW and entitled to mark room from the time she enters the zone clear ahead until she passes head to wind. While the boats are on opposite tacks 18 is off. If A tacks back onto port before B rounds, 18 turns back on. If the boats are overlapped B is presumably now leeward and inside so has ROW and is entitled to mark room.

You say A protested - did this go to a hearing and if so what happened?

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28 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Even if it wasn't a simple port/starboard situation, the faster boat to windward overtaking the slower boat must keep clear. Also must take steps to avoid collision.

"Overtaking" makes no difference in RRS so it doesn't matter who's faster or slower. Overlapped, clear ahead or clear astern does. Even rule 17, which sort of deals with an overtaking situation, avoids the term "overtaking".

This is a significant difference from COLREGS that seems to trip a lot of people.

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9 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

If Boat A had passed Head To Wind, then rule 18 does not apply.

 

18.1 Rule 18 ...does not apply:

(a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,
(b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the
mark for one but not both of them is to tack,

When A passed HTW as part of his tack, he is on starboard and you are on port.. You are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward.Furthermore, the proper course at the mark will be for A to tack back onto port to round the mark

The following rules do apply

Rule 13:  If A had not completed his tack then he has to keep clear.

Rule 10 : If A had completed his tack and reached close hauled course, then B has to keep clear of A.

However

Rule 15 : When A completes his tack, he has initially to give B room to keep clear.

If A had completed his tack, and after he completed his tack, there was space for you to respond by tacking and keeping clear, but you failed to keep clear and he genuinely had to luff to avoid then you broke 10.  However if he luffed because if he had held his course there was no way to avoid him....then his luff was him complying with rule 15.

In the room, he cannot get dsq because  he kept clear. There is a risk for you because if he can show that he completed his tack and there was room for you to keep clear without any need for you to start altering course until he had completed his tack.  The moment he completes his tack is key for you.

 

Wow. One of the few very few times that someone on this site gave the correct answer and analysis including rule references. Well done , Sir or ma'm or however you identify yourself. 

No one else need respond .

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39 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Even if it wasn't a simple port/starboard situation, the faster boat to windward overtaking the slower boat must keep clear. Also must take steps to avoid collision.

(Be good to know the relative boat speeds to complete the picture.)

I don't understand how this applies.  Both boats were sailing upwind on different tacks.

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1 minute ago, TJSoCal said:

"Overtaking" makes no difference in RRS. Overlapped, clear ahead or clear astern does. Even rule 17, which sort of deals with an overtaking situation, avoids the term "overtaking".

This is a significant difference from COLREGS that seems to trip a lot of people.

Agreed. Only meant it as a general situation descriptor... 

...and because I tell this to up and comers, I'd be interested to hear of any situation where an overtaking boat doesn't need to keep clear. (Because there are clearly people here more up to date and more experienced than me!)

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Just now, Bruce Hudson said:

Agreed. Only meant it as a general situation descriptor... 

...and because I tell this to up and comers, I'd be interested to hear of any situation where an overtaking boat doesn't need to keep clear. (Because there are clearly people here more up to date and more experienced than me!)

If the overtaking boat is overlapped to leeward, she has ROW.

If she established the overlap from astern within two hull lengths to leeward (the typical "overtaking" scenario), she still has ROW but is restricted by rule 17 from sailing above her proper course (so she has limited luffing rights, but windward boat must still keep clear).

So in general when you tell people about this don't focus on relative motion but on relative position.

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13 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I don't understand how this applies.  Both boats were sailing upwind on different tacks.

That's not 100% clear to me...

12 hours ago, Chapter Four said:

Boat A is 2 boat lengths clear ahead on Port tack also, but to leward and pinching to make the mark, he's slower than me and I can see he's not going to make it, due to the tide.

Boat A reaches the zone still clear ahead. At the mark Boat A attempts a down speed tack to starboard. Boat B clears boat A's bow and the mark and sails off. Boat A hails protest.

Boat A claims he had had completed his tack and had to luff to avoid hitting Boat B. Boat B doesn't think Boat A completed his tack.

...so leading up to the incident, they were on the same tack... hence:

51 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Even if it wasn't a simple port/starboard situation

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1 hour ago, Bruce Hudson said:

That's not 100% clear to me...

...so leading up to the incident, they were on the same tack... hence:

What does it matter what happened leading up to he incident, when the met, they were on opposite tacks, and A protested.

What happened before A tacks is not even subject to a protest, A made no complaint about it. Why go hunting for additional problems that neither boat involved was concerned with? It adds confusion to a simple situation.

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2 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Agreed. Only meant it as a general situation descriptor... 

...and because I tell this to up and comers, I'd be interested to hear of any situation where an overtaking boat doesn't need to keep clear. (Because there are clearly people here more up to date and more experienced than me!)

Here's one.

A and B are both on stb tack, B is clear astern of A and moving faster.

B and A are on converging courses, with B sailing a higher course than A, (because B can point higher.)

B then becomes overlapped to leeward of A. and gains right of way.

B is still moving faster and therefore still overtaking, but B does not have to keep clear of A,  A must keep clear of B.

 

 

NOTE: This post was concisely and accurately answered in post #2. anyone who reads beyond that point you has no-one but them self to blame.

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14 hours ago, Chapter Four said:

Boat A claims he had had completed his tack and had to luff to avoid hitting Boat B. Boat B doesn't think Boat A completed his tack.

Absent strong witnesses for B, I'm not sure how he convinces a PC that A hadn't come to a close-hauled course when A claims he had. If I were B in this situation I'd strongly consider doing penalty turns.

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12 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

I

However

Rule 15 : When A completes his tack, he has initially to give B room to keep clear.

If A had completed his tack, and after he completed his tack, there was space for you to respond by tacking and keeping clear, but you failed to keep clear and he genuinely

 

the arguments i've heard about giving enough room to keep clear, is that if the port boat has to crash tack instead of a seamanship like tack , then enough room was given to keep clear..       imho, a crash tack is not enough room for keeping clear..

 

and back to OP,

Quote

I'm coming in on Port, just laying the windward mark. Call me boat B. 

Boat A is 2 boat lengths clear ahead on Port tack also, but to leward and pinching to make the mark, he's slower than me and I can see he's not going to make it, due to the tide.

this doesn't make sense, a starboard rounding maybe? 

how do you pinch to make the mark on a port rounding than tack to starborad to make the rounding.   a diagram always helps..

 

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I understood, that at times of uncertainty, the protest committee would go to the last point that everyone agrees. This would mean that as both boat A and B agree that boat A tacked, it would be upto boat A to prove they had completed their tack AND that boat B had room to keep clear.

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1 minute ago, Tvick1 said:

I understood, that at times of uncertainty, the protest committee would go to the last point that everyone agrees. This would mean that as both boat A and B agree that boat A tacked, it would be upto boat A to prove they had completed their tack AND that boat B had room to keep clear.

all the head sail has to do is go past head to wind and it's considered a tack, whether the sails are in position or not..

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But I understand that it will be yacht A that needs to prove that they are now on starboard AND that boat B has room to keep clear. 

Also they do not gain any rights as a starboard boat until they reach a close hauled course (I agree that they do not actually have to set there sails, that is just a nice way to demonstraight that you are on a close hauled course)

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6 minutes ago, Tvick1 said:

But I understand that it will be yacht A that needs to prove that they are now on starboard AND that boat B has room to keep clear. 

Also they do not gain any rights as a starboard boat until they reach a close hauled course (I agree that they do not actually have to set there sails, that is just a nice way to demonstraight that you are on a close hauled course)

and that was my point a couple of posts up,  what is room to keep clear?   crash tack / seaman like tack,  enough room  (barely miss) to cross in front of?    there are a of opinions on these points.. 

imho,  if a port rounding ,  Boat A being clear behind, should know that Boat  B is going to tack to the mark and has the right to do so, and should be preparing to duck rather than take the chance of a collision "and gain an edge"    toss  A   ..

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28 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

the arguments i've heard about giving enough room to keep clear, is that if the port boat has to crash tack instead of a seamanship like tack , then enough room was given to keep clear..       imho, a crash tack is not enough room for keeping clear..

 

and back to OP,

this doesn't make sense, a starboard rounding maybe? 

how do you pinch to make the mark on a port rounding than tack to starborad to make the rounding.   a diagram always helps..

 

Stated in the OP... starboard course.

You have to either assume

A:that the OP is an idiot and nothing make sense, or assume

B:that when the OP states 'starboard course' they mean that the mark is left to starboard, and everything makes sense.

 

Occams razor leads to option B

 

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Getting all the sailx moderators in here for some rule breaking.

This is a P/S Rule 10.  Or, could be R13 or R15 based on proximity of boats.

Seems like the description clearly calls boat A Starboard ( has completed her tack R13,  and also allowed room for a give way boat to remain clear, R15.

Thus, if no alteration of course by either boat was needed, the protest gets thrown out.  NOW, it becomes one word against anothers...and usually Starboard boats win, but without evidence then it's tossed.  

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4 minutes ago, proOC said:

Thus, if no alteration of course by either boat was needed, the protest gets thrown out.  NOW, it becomes one word against anothers...and usually Starboard boats win, but without evidence then it's tossed. 

If neither boat had to alter course to avoid contact after A's tack, then I don't think either boat broke a rule. B kept clear and A gave her room to do so (or, if A didn't complete her tack, A kept clear and B gave her room). Assuming that validity requirements were met the PC would still have to hear the protest, but would likely conclude that no boat broke a rule so no boat is penalized.

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17 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

what is room to keep clear?   crash tack / seaman like tack,  enough room  (barely miss) to cross in front of?    there are a of opinions on these points.. 

Per Case 103, "the phrase ‘seamanlike way’ in the definition Room refers to boat-handling that can reasonably be expected from a
competent, but not expert, crew of the appropriate number for the boat."

How would you differentiate between an "immediate" tack (seamanlike) and a "crash" (unseamanlike) tack?

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15 hours ago, Chapter Four said:

Boat A claims he had had completed his tack and had to luff to avoid hitting Boat B. Boat B doesn't think Boat A completed his tack.

How can a Starboard tack boat have to luff in order to clear a port tacker that is crossing his bow? 

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Thanks For the replies guys.

Yes this was a starboard rounding.

No protest filed, low level club racing. We hardly ever do Starboad rounding courses for this reason. Yes we should follow through more with protests

Boat A is a Cat rigged 13ft singled hander, doing 3 knots probably, probably all up weight of 140kg with skipper

Boat B is Sloop rigged 16ft double hander doing 5 knots, all up weight of 320kg including crew. (Boat B is actually lapping boat A on the course)

We were both on port tack for the starboard rounding.

Boat A was clear ahead until he tacked

Separation was about 2 metres

Due to his low weight and speed he stopped dead when he tacked. Boat B doesn't believe Boat A completed his tack and even if he did, would not have got to boat B due to lack of speed and tide against. Boat A disagrees. (Boat A is my father in-law! probably should have done turns just for that reason alone !)

Boat B passed Boat A to windward and believes they kept clear

 

What I'm trying to establish is next time this happens, what are my obligations as a port tacker coming in for a starboard rounding, and what rights does the crazy guy trying to do 2 down speed tacks to make the mark have.

From my understanding of 18, the starboard tacker has rule 10 ROW until he tacks, at that point 18.1b applies and he is not entitled to mark room.

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1 hour ago, TJSoCal said:

Per Case 103, "the phrase ‘seamanlike way’ in the definition Room refers to boat-handling that can reasonably be expected from a
competent, but not expert, crew of the appropriate number for the boat."

How would you differentiate between an "immediate" tack (seamanlike) and a "crash" (unseamanlike) tack?

anticipation;  on a crash tack, you're avoiding damage not expecting having to tack at that moment     on a seaman like tack, i'm anticipating having to take action and plan accordingly.. ( ie. i know the other boat is wanting to go some direction, i have to be prepared for such action)

 

thanks JohnB ,  reading comprehension...   

and tis is why we don't do starboard courses because of shit like this...  boats on layline are on port with starboard tackers coming into the mark... 

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1 hour ago, A3A said:

 

How can a Starboard tack boat have to luff in order to clear a port tacker that is crossing his bow? 

He believes that if he bore off he would have accelerated and hit Boat B, he was already slow from the tack, luffing stopped his boat, to avoid contact.

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4 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

anticipation;  on a crash tack, you're avoiding damage not expecting having to tack at that moment     on a seaman like tack, i'm anticipating having to take action and plan accordingly.. ( ie. i know the other boat is wanting to go some direction, i have to be prepared for such action)

 

thanks JohnB ,  reading comprehension... 

We were prepared to tack as we could see the situtation unfolding, he was never going to make the starboard mark on port tack and had to tack to starboard. There was room to tack if we needed to.

We believe were were clear and as such didn't tack

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25 minutes ago, Chapter Four said:

From my understanding of 18, the starboard tacker has rule 10 ROW until he tacks, at that point 18.1b applies and he is not entitled to mark room.

Not quite. 18.2(b) applies if the boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, and by definition boats on opposite tacks are not overlapped. In your example 18.2(b) was on when A entered the zone on port clear ahead, but all of 18 switched off and 10 switched on when A tacked from port to starboard in the zone.

When A tacked back to port (assuming a completed tack and no rule 15 violation), if there's an overlap then rule 11 and 18.2(a) switch on - whichever of you is leeward boat has ROW and inside boat (presumably also leeward) is owed mark room by outside boat.

 

EDITING TO ADD: You're right that after A tacks from port to starboard he's not entitled to mark room as 18 is not on. But he is ROW and B must avoid - for example if A tacks on the starboard layline he's entitled (by his ROW, not rule 18) to sail close to the mark and round it, and to make a tactical rounding if he so chooses. He maintains his ROW until he passes head to wind from starboard to port.

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2 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

Per Case 103, "the phrase ‘seamanlike way’ in the definition Room refers to boat-handling that can reasonably be expected from a
competent, but not expert, crew of the appropriate number for the boat."

How would you differentiate between an "immediate" tack (seamanlike) and a "crash" (unseamanlike) tack?

I would say a crash tack, you just steer the boat in any way you can to avoid a collision. The crew might not swap sides, the jib might not be released, in a dinghy you might even capsize.

A seamanlike tack may have the same steering input, but you would swap sides, you would realease the jib and pull it in on the other side, you would continue to sail on the new tack in a similar manor to normal. This doesnt mean that you have to be allowed sufficient room to roll tack or similar, so the tack might not be as efficient as a tack that you would have completed had the starboard boat not been there)

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3 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

anticipation;  on a crash tack, you're avoiding damage not expecting having to tack at that moment     on a seaman like tack, i'm anticipating having to take action and plan accordingly.. ( ie. i know the other boat is wanting to go some direction, i have to be prepared for such action)

I don't think you can do it based on "state of mind." Maybe if you can testify to something like "we had to tack instantly and unexpectedly, the jib backed because there was no time for anyone to release the sheet" would make it a crash tack.

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51 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Not quite. 18.2(b) applies only if the boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, and by definition boats on opposite tacks are not overlapped. In your example 18.2(b) was on when A entered the zone clear ahead, but all of 18 switched off and 10 switched on when A tacked from port to starboard in the zone.

When A tacked back to port (assuming a completed tack and no rule 15 violation), if there's an overlap then rule 11 and 18.2(a) switch on - leeward boat has ROW and inside boat (presumably also leeward) is owed mark room by outside boat.

Ok, so 18 applies until he tacks to starboard, then it's off and 10 applies. when he tacks back he's covered by 18 and 11. 

So Boat B being clear astern of A when entering the zone is keep clear during all of this, (except when A is tacking)

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22 minutes ago, Chapter Four said:

Ok, so 18 applies until he tacks to starboard, then it's off and 10 applies. when he tacks back he's covered by 18 and 11. 

So Boat B being clear astern of A when entering the zone is keep clear during all of this, (except when A is tacking)

If A tacks back onto port to leeward of B, yes. If, as seems likely, B winds up clear ahead after A's two tacks, B has ROW.

OP didn't say, but it sounds like after A luffed/slowed to avoid contact, he fell back to starboard close-hauled and then tacked to the mark clear astern of B. Guessing it looked something like this, with the critical question being whether Yellow (A) got to a close-hauled course at position 2 before luffing to avoid Blue (B).

1937578290_1810.png.5f75bf6312348a9c30d38d1dad549139.png

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Sounds like a P/S, but the facts stated don’t all add up.  OP has said it was a “starboard course”, so marks are apparently being left to starboard.  Boat A enters the zone and tacks onto starboard.  Boat B clears her bow and the mark, and sails on.  Boat A saying they had to luff up to keep clear of boat B, however, makes no sense and makes their statements less credible.  If boat A luffs up trying to avoid B, they should end up either hitting boat B or passing in front of them - neither of which happened. Boat B went ahead of boat A, so boat A either held their course (no foul) or had to head off (not what they said they did) to avoid B.  If they luffed up, “hunting” boat B,  they made it more difficult for B to avoid contact, but he still avoided contact, so there is no foul.  Boat A can’t simply claim that he had to change his heading to avoid contact with a nearby port-tack boat. If he had to head off, it would be a foul, but it doesn’t look that way from the description given.      

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41 minutes ago, Chapter Four said:

Ok, so 18 applies until he tacks to starboard, then it's off and 10 applies. when he tacks back he's covered by 18 and 11. 

So Boat B being clear astern of A when entering the zone is keep clear during all of this, (except when A is tacking)

18 is off as soon as A passes head to wind, at which point 13 is on and R10 does not apply. Once A reaches close hauled 10 applies.

 

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1 hour ago, Chapter Four said:

He believes that if he bore off he would have accelerated and hit Boat B, he was already slow from the tack, luffing stopped his boat, to avoid contact.

So if he'd completed the tack, there would have been contact A asserts? As right of way was acquired when you were crossing, that strongly suggests that you didn't have room to keep clear (ask yourself, 'What action can I now take to avoid RoW boat A?'). You don't have to anticipate A acquiring RoW, it sounds like you couldn't do anything to keep clear so A was therefore obliged to not complete tack and/or luff up after the tack to avoid fouling you and infringing rule 15.

I've seen a few starboard rails stoved in by boats who thought that they could tack onto starboard with total impunity.

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17 minutes ago, PaulK said:

Sounds like a P/S, but the facts stated don’t all add up.  OP has said it was a “starboard course”, so marks are apparently being left to starboard.  Boat A enters the zone and tacks onto starboard.  Boat B clears her bow and the mark, and sails on.  Boat A saying they had to luff up to keep clear of boat B, however, makes no sense and makes their statements less credible.  If boat A luffs up trying to avoid B, they should end up either hitting boat B or passing in front of them - neither of which happened. Boat B went ahead of boat A, so boat A either held their course (no foul) or had to head off (not what they said they did) to avoid B.  If they luffed up, “hunting” boat B,  they made it more difficult for B to avoid contact, but he still avoided contact, so there is no foul.  Boat A can’t simply claim that he had to change his heading to avoid contact with a nearby port-tack boat. If he had to head off, it would be a foul, but it doesn’t look that way from the description given.      

Boat A is a light weight with little speed going against the tidal flow, during his tack he's stationary relative to boat B, ie he doesn't move from point 2 to point 3, he stays at point 2. 

The diagram pretty much has it, but A and B have differing views on how far he got at point 2.

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5 minutes ago, yotboy said:

So if he'd completed the tack, there would have been contact A asserts? As right of way was acquired when you were crossing, that strongly suggests that you didn't have room to keep clear (ask yourself, 'What action can I now take to avoid RoW boat A?'). You don't have to anticipate A acquiring RoW, it sounds like you couldn't do anything to keep clear so A was therefore obliged to not complete tack and/or luff up after the tack to avoid fouling you and infringing rule 15.

I've seen a few starboard rails stoved in by boats who thought that they could tack onto starboard with total impunity.

No, according to the OP,

19 hours ago, Chapter Four said:

Boat A claims he had had completed his tack and had to luff to avoid hitting Boat B. Boat B doesn't think Boat A completed his tack.

 

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Just now, yotboy said:

So if he'd completed the tack, there would have been contact A asserts? As right of way was acquired when you were crossing, that strongly suggests that you didn't have room to keep clear (ask yourself, 'What action can I now take to avoid RoW boat A?'). You don't have to anticipate A acquiring RoW, it sounds like you couldn't do anything to keep clear so A was therefore obliged to not complete tack and/or luff up after the tack to avoid fouling you and infringing rule 15.

I've seen a few starboard rails stoved in by boats who thought that they could tack onto starboard with total impunity.

From the time A passes head to wind until he comes to a close-hauled course, B is ROW (rule 13). If A doesn't get to a close-hauled tack on starboard, A curtailing/reversing his tack met A's obligation to keep clear of B. I think this is OP's assertion.

If/when A gets to a close-hauled course his tack is complete and he gains ROW (rule 10). He must initially give B room to keep clear so it's possible that A's luff met that obligation and neither boat broke a rule.

If A gets to a close-hauled course and B did have room to keep clear (by luffing or tacking, for example), then A's alteration was necessary to avoid contact and B broke rule 10. Believe this is A's assertion.

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The correct answer of course is for your spouse to arbitrate. They may be the only person able to judge who's view of this is likely to be accurate.

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12 minutes ago, Chapter Four said:

Boat A is a light weight with little speed going against the tidal flow, during his tack he's stationary relative to boat B, ie he doesn't move from point 2 to point 3, he stays at point 2. 

The diagram pretty much has it, but A and B have differing views on how far he got at point 2.

Sounds like boat A tacked (came to a close-hauled course) and stopped.  Current allowed him to turn his boat whichever way he wanted, but he was not advancing.  Boat B passed his bow and continued on.  Boat A could not have had contact with boat B if they had wanted to.  No foul.

 

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22 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Agreed. Only meant it as a general situation descriptor... 

...and because I tell this to up and comers, I'd be interested to hear of any situation where an overtaking boat doesn't need to keep clear. (Because there are clearly people here more up to date and more experienced than me!)

There are many situations where the overtaking boat is not the keep clear boat.

Here are a few.

  • The overtaking boat is the leeward boat and is sailing her proper course.
  • The boats are going downwind and the leading boat is on port and the overtaking boat is on starboard.
  • At the windward mark, the leading boat tacked from port to starboard inside the zone clear head of the overtaking boat and the overtaking boat establishes an inside leeward overlap and is fetching the mark.

In most situations Boats (overtaking or leading) have to comply with rules 15 and 16 ....but 15 and 16 do not affect who needs to keep clear.

One example of an exception to the requirements of 15/16 was my 3rd example which I include as a "situation where an overtaking boat doesnt have to keep clear". In my 3rd example, the overtaking boat can do what they like without fear of 15/16......the boat being overtaken needs to get out of the way and anticipate how she is going to get out of the way before the overlap even starts.

There is no such rule as "overtaking boat keeps clear" .

John calls me VMK because that is my nickname in the rules world and sailx.....its a long story.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

John calls me VMK because that is my nickname in the rules world and sailx.....its a long story.

He is the Mambo King,(its so long ago I cant even remember which Fkey that was.)

Now that tacticat is dead there will never be another  :(

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16 hours ago, Chapter Four said:

Thanks For the replies guys.

Yes this was a starboard rounding.

No protest filed, low level club racing. We hardly ever do Starboad rounding courses for this reason. Yes we should follow through more with protests

Boat A is a Cat rigged 13ft singled hander, doing 3 knots probably, probably all up weight of 140kg with skipper

Boat B is Sloop rigged 16ft double hander doing 5 knots, all up weight of 320kg including crew. (Boat B is actually lapping boat A on the course)

We were both on port tack for the starboard rounding.

Boat A was clear ahead until he tacked

Separation was about 2 metres

Due to his low weight and speed he stopped dead when he tacked. Boat B doesn't believe Boat A completed his tack and even if he did, would not have got to boat B due to lack of speed and tide against. Boat A disagrees. (Boat A is my father in-law! probably should have done turns just for that reason alone !)

Boat B passed Boat A to windward and believes they kept clear

 

What I'm trying to establish is next time this happens, what are my obligations as a port tacker coming in for a starboard rounding, and what rights does the crazy guy trying to do 2 down speed tacks to make the mark have.

From my understanding of 18, the starboard tacker has rule 10 ROW until he tacks, at that point 18.1b applies and he is not entitled to mark room.

Recommendation #1 :  Depends on what your father in law likes to drink.  Buy him a bottle of red wine and send it over with a nice note....apologizing for the incident (why do you care if you were right or wrong, he raised the woman you love!) and expressing your appreciation for the fact that you both get to sail on the same race course . Make it a wine that he knows costs slightly more than you can normally afford. If his poison of choice is whisky then I highly recommend the Glenfiddich 15 year old. Nothing says "Im sorry" better than a single malt.  

Refer Appendix U RRS "If no protest if filed between two boats, then the boat with any or either of father-in-law, mother-in-law, father, mother, or wife on board is right and the other boat shall make amends accordingly".   This rule is not subject to appeal ......but it gets easier as you get older and have kids of your own. 

As to the facts.......if F-I-L did not complete his tack, until after you passed him, then obviously no rules were broken. But his testimony is unequivocal that he completed his tack and that he reasonably apprehended a collision and so he luffed to slow his boat and avoid a collision. My questions to the F-I-L would be around rule 15. How immediately did he feel he needed to luff. What would have happened if he did not luff? Whats does he think you should have done?  When should his son-in-law have started to respond? etc. Since he is not here to answer those questions, we cant guess at the outcome .

Once the boat (S) is on stbd, then the other boats (p) is the keep clear boat.  When S tacks back onto port to round the mark, the rights under rule 18 will depend on whether S tacked inside P, outside P or clear ahead/astern of P but 18.2 (b) will not apply. 

 

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38 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

He is the Mambo King,(its so long ago I cant even remember which Fkey that was.)

Now that tacticat is dead there will never be another  :(

Neither can I remember the f keys.......but starting on port with full speed and crossing the whole fleet stalled and pinching on starboard and hailing "I am the Mambo King" ,..... well nothing quite beat that feeling. Its enough to cause one to start humming Beautiful Maria of My Soul.

God rest Tacticrack

and all that sailed on her.

 

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20 hours ago, proOC said:

Getting all the sailx moderators in here for some rule breaking.

 

How are you man?

Long time.

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Second boat's probably doing a tad under 4 knots = say 6 feet per second. If separation was two boats lengths before the tack clearance when the tack was completed (if we assume it was) must have been at max 1 boatlength - say 3 seconds. Can you do a seaman like tack in 3 seconds (including reaction time of both crew) in a two handed boat?  No.

RRS 15. Starboard boat was obliged to give port boat room and did so. No rules broken.

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21 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

all the head sail has to do is go past head to wind and it's considered a tack, whether the sails are in position or not..

What does this even mean ? Maybe you meant to say "When the boat goes past head to wind you are tacking. Your tack is complete once you are on a close hauled course whether or not your sails are in position or not." 

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2 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

How are you man?

Long time.

What up VMK?

All good racing a bit and waiting or some fresh pow skiing.

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21 hours ago, Chapter Four said:

Thanks For the replies guys.

Yes this was a starboard rounding.

No protest filed, low level club racing. We hardly ever do Starboad rounding courses for this reason. Yes we should follow through more with protests

Boat A is a Cat rigged 13ft singled hander, doing 3 knots probably, probably all up weight of 140kg with skipper

Boat B is Sloop rigged 16ft double hander doing 5 knots, all up weight of 320kg including crew. (Boat B is actually lapping boat A on the course)

 

Shame on Boat B for not sailing smarter.
Not planning on the back markers getting in the way is inexcusable.

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22 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

 

Refer Appendix U RRS "If no protest is filed between two boats, then the boat with any or either of father-in-law, mother-in-law, father, mother, or wife on board is right and the other boat shall make amends accordingly".   This rule is not subject to appeal ......but it gets easier as you get older and have kids of your own. 

 

 

Ultimately, Appendix U applies.  

So unless you want to start a new chapter in your life, I recommend that Glenfiddich....or the Macallan.

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Boat B is not required to anticipate Boat A's need to/likelihood to tack and need not start to take avoiding action until she completes her tack. 

Boat A's eventual Rights as Starboard become active only when she completes her tack, coming to a close-hauled course

When Boat A's Starboard tack rights become active, she must initially give Boat B, room to keep clear in a seaman like manner. 

Seaman like manner as described above would imply that Boat B, observing Boat A now close hauled on Starboard shall initiate a normal 

"Ready About... Tack" maneuver instead of immediately throwing the tiller across screaming TACKING!!!. 

Change circumstances a bit and make Boat B a 10 ton full keel Cruising boat in light winds, and the time & Room it will take to keep clear is not trivial 

 

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9 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Boat B is not required to anticipate Boat A's need 

Of course not, but this is club level weekend racing, to not anticipate is inexcusable from a faster boat lapping others.

This is why local racing is in decline.

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We could see the situation developing, and were prepared to tack if needed.

We try to stay clear of the newbies (and the oldies) when we can, but it's hard sometimes at marks and starts.

Later in the same race we ducked a boat on port (us on Stb) as they were unsure of who had right of way, they've been sailing 6 months and just getting around the course is a win for them, it costs me what, 3-4 seconds. We talked about back at the club, all good.

Whilst the rules say you don't have to anticipate what another boat is going to do, you're a fool if you don't.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Chapter Four said:

Whilst the rules say you don't have to anticipate what another boat is going to do, you're a fool if you don't.

 

 

There are a number of situations where the rules say you do have to anticipate what another boat is going to do.......but that is probably a whole 'nother thread.

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Tactically, why would you not want to know what options are open to a competitor and anticipate what he's likely to do, including the ROW and room rules which will pertain?

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