danstanford

Crew memberships required for racing at yacht club?

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14 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

There is clearly a separation of experience here.

In my sailing (as both owner and crew) my experience does not equate to a car driver and pit crew. It is much closer to other team endeavors. I certainly do not feel that because I am the guy holding the which way stick, that the win belongs to ME.

I think this is exactly the point. Many boat owners really see it as about their participation...like the car driver.

I've always seen sailing as more of a team sport. When not the boat owner I contributed as I could - including for many years paying membership that also gave me benefits beyond being part of a sports team....

Realistically I think there are two approaches and a smart club should be open to how it manages that. This should include buidling a consensus within the membership about what the objective is and how it is being achieved...failing to generate member understanding and support will be way more expensive than what can be made up by some crew membership revenue.

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1 hour ago, JohnMB said:

 

No I don't, I don't get how you can equate your main trimmer with your bike mechanic, or you kite trimmer with your racquet stringer.

How can you equate a paid professional who sits on the sideline (and works for more than one team/player typically) with a team member who practices with the team,  is on the course throughout the event and who's skill is integral to the team success. Maybe its because I sail 3/4 person keelboats, but I just don't see this comparison.

I concur. Weak comparison. Just trying to get the point across that the crew enable us to race. Without crew, no race. Our club adopted this crew membership bullshit thing a few years back and it totally destroyed a 5 crew OD fleet. Don't charge crews memberships. It's wrong on multiple levels.

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I'm  a bit of a "boat whore"   I usually race on 3 or 4 boats a season, in 3 different clubs.  How many clubs do I have to join?   Reciprocity is a joke.  What's the initiation, annual dues and monthly restaurant/bar minimum for each required club?  And then what do I do when the boat at that club is sold?

I understand that sailing is a "pay to play" sport.  I ain't no rock star, I expect to pull and pay my own way.  Off season boat work, buying and fixing things, deliveries and more.  But sheesh......

This sounds like a great way to kill off big boat club racing. :(

So all that's left is the new RC Dragonflite - the fastest growing one design fleet at two of our local clubs....

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As the OP, I would like to express my gratitude for all the feedback. 

FWIW, it is my opinion that the costs are a per boat cost and that we currently underpay for the services we get. To put it another way, the non-racing members of the club are subsidizing the racing activities. To suggest that crew should defray some of this subsidy is likely to have the opposite effect at the end of the day in that less boats may participate but the costs will not change.

In our club, there are no services used by the crew other than tables and chairs on the dining room or the deck. It would be very hard for me to believe that the consumption of beer and food does not contribute to the bottom line but if it does not that should be the first place we look! 

I intend to connect our Commodore to this thread. 

Dan 

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20 minutes ago, danstanford said:

As the OP, I would like to express my gratitude for all the feedback. 

FWIW, it is my opinion that the costs are a per boat cost and that we currently underpay for the services we get. To put it another way, the non-racing members of the club are subsidizing the racing activities. To suggest that crew should defray some of this subsidy is likely to have the opposite effect at the end of the day in that less boats may participate but the costs will not change.

In our club, there are no services used by the crew other than tables and chairs on the dining room or the deck. It would be very hard for me to believe that the consumption of beer and food does not contribute to the bottom line but if it does not that should be the first place we look! 

I intend to connect our Commodore to this thread. 

Dan 

Exactly.  Boat entry fee should cover regatta costs.  Crew fee is a sure way to drive folks away.  I sure as hell wouldn't pay it, you can bet I'd never race in that club's races.

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1 hour ago, Plumber said:

I concur. Weak comparison. Just trying to get the point across that the crew enable us to race. Without crew, no race. Our club adopted this crew membership bullshit thing a few years back and it totally destroyed a 5 crew OD fleet. Don't charge crews memberships. It's wrong on multiple levels.

There are many circumstances where crew memberships are absolutely the wrong option. I would definitely put any attempt to use crew memberships to raise revenue in this bucket.

There are circumstances (and clubs) where crew memberships may be a good idea. But these mostly hinge around getting crew to develop a connection with the club that will (hopefully) lead to full membership, and more participation.

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21 minutes ago, danstanford said:

As the OP, I would like to express my gratitude for all the feedback. 

FWIW, it is my opinion that the costs are a per boat cost and that we currently underpay for the services we get. To put it another way, the non-racing members of the club are subsidizing the racing activities. To suggest that crew should defray some of this subsidy is likely to have the opposite effect at the end of the day in that less boats may participate but the costs will not change.

In our club, there are no services used by the crew other than tables and chairs on the dining room or the deck. It would be very hard for me to believe that the consumption of beer and food does not contribute to the bottom line but if it does not that should be the first place we look! 

I intend to connect our Commodore to this thread. 

Dan 

You seem to have a good handle on the issue.

Are these under charged costs just for the racing or also for harbour facilities.

Racing boats are often undercharged for their slip – the deep keels use rare space or drive dredging costs etc.

Bigger boats may also drive higher race committee costs – the same rib that works for a laser RC may not work so well with 40 footers on the line...

If your commodore/fleet captain is wise she/he will enlist the affected parties in developing a solution. For example if the solution is to raise revenue from boats racing roughly in proportion to their size solutions could include:

1.       Increase slip fees (paid by boat owners)

2.       Increase race section fees (paid by racing boat owners)

3.       Add crew membership fees but give real benefits to crew members (some boat owners may pay membership some others may be comfortable with crew paying or even mix/sharing)

4.       Give race boats a food and beverage minimum per race per length overall or charge per race fee that includes F&B (generates revenue that offsets fixed costs / subsidise non racing members)

Even a not fully logical answer that is fully owned by the people who will have write the cheque will work out better than the most brilliant answer imposed by THE MAN.

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56 minutes ago, danstanford said:

In our club, there are no services used by the crew other than tables and chairs on the dining room or the deck

Toilets, roof overhead, cleaning,  I bet there are a number of others if you think through it, especially if you include facilities that need to scale up in size for the number of people using them.

The RRS is certainly in no doubt that everyone on board during the race is a competitor, and as I said before its hard to think of many amateur sports where the competitors don't have to pay for the facilities required to put an event on. Whether its right for your club in its own circumstances for all the sailors to contribute to the club's running expenses, or just the boat owners, is something only the club can answer. There's certainly no intrinsic right or wrong. The extent to which USian leadmine crew seem to expect to have their sport subsidised by the boat owner is utterly alien to me, but there's no doubt that the subsidised have strong feelings about it!

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47 minutes ago, JimC said:

Toilets, roof overhead, cleaning,  I bet there are a number of others if you think through it, especially if you include facilities that need to scale up in size for the number of people using them.

The RRS is certainly in no doubt that everyone on board during the race is a competitor, and as I said before its hard to think of many amateur sports where the competitors don't have to pay for the facilities required to put an event on. Whether its right for your club in its own circumstances for all the sailors to contribute to the club's running expenses, or just the boat owners, is something only the club can answer. There's certainly no intrinsic right or wrong. The extent to which USian leadmine crew seem to expect to have their sport subsidised by the boat owner is utterly alien to me, but there's no doubt that the subsidised have strong feelings about it!

First off, you need to keep in mind we do NOT have people banging on the door to get in! Fleets are a fraction of what they once were and a major reason for that is people cannot find crew or finding crew is such a hassle they give up. ANYTHING that makes it harder to get crew will cut the numbers and then there are less boats to support the same infrastructure and costs go up and then you see where this is going.

Then look at the logistics of it. I am a full member of XXX club and have voting rights at my club and reciprocal privileges at other clubs. I sure as hell would NOT pay 10 cents to "join" some other club as a "crew person member" just because the boat I was on raced there. I paid once already and we don't make your crews join our club. See what a mess this is? You need to apportion fees to costs instead of this huge cluster-f***. If I am at your club grabbing beer and lunch, I expect to pay for it. If you are at our club, your race fee will include a per-person cost if we are feeding and beering you. We don't expect non-members with no reciprocal rights to be just hanging around, they are here when their skipper is here racing.

It would be very easy to race at 3-4-5 or even 10 clubs in a year. Do you join ALL of them?

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1 hour ago, bgytr said:

Exactly.  Boat entry fee should cover regatta costs.  Crew fee is a sure way to drive folks away.  I sure as hell wouldn't pay it, you can bet I'd never race in that club's races.

If you set the regatta fee to cover the club's costs then you can leave it up to each owner and crew how much, if any, of that gets passed on to crew members.

If I knew an owner's financial circumstances were similar to or worse than mine I wouldn't have (and haven't had) a problem with pitching in for entry fees and expenses for the more expensive races.

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On 2/1/2020 at 10:26 AM, Jubblies said:

I don't see an issue with crew memberships. Come to the club as a guest two or three times to crew, or to introduce new crew/sailors, fine you're welcome to it. Coming to the club every Wednesday night, 12 -16 weeks a year or more? 

I think at this point someone might argue that you're enjoying all the great parts of being a member, without the commitment others are making. 

My club is an all volunteer club. This means people are giving up their time to organize racing fleets, run race committee, put out a dinner in the galley, tend the bar,  maintain the building and grounds, and most importantly cleaning up after everyone! Our "Crew Membership" is a measly $90 a year and no initiation. Although we offer it, it's not a requirement. It's a way for those that come use our club on a regular basis to contribute back and gain a little more access to the facilities and non-racing events.

As far as requiring a crew membership, I think this falls into shaky grounds. Depending on the size and capabilities of the club,  I can see how it would completely back fire. 

I would also guess that some "Crew Members" eventually buy their own boat and become "Full Members" with paid docking in our marina!

With all this being said, I am a big proponent of "community sailing centers" over the old dried up "Club" model, but this is a topic for a later discussion :)

All the above and more.
 

I had to pay couple hundred bucks for a season at a Boston Harbor club (CPYC).  Worked for me .  Lived in city and needed space for my Laser.  Stored it on dock, had quick rig/launch spot to train in harbor.  Use of parking/showers/weight room & bar.  Good vibes with club members.  Got hooked up with lot of crew opportunities on top of everything.

Varies by club but if you live in the city these kind of p/t membership deals are choice.

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10 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Well you have certainly changed your tune. Did some large islander bend you over and fuck some sense into you?

Oh Dear,

I seem to have got myself a stalker.

Trolling you is fun .

But you are making it too easy.

Hows your racing endeavours going

Little Butthurt one ?

Enjoy your time out?

I did.

Bwahahaha

 

 

 

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I have not read every posting but the crew membership requirement may not be sailing but rather clubhouse related. The clubhouse liquor license is likely to allow non-member guests but only on a very limited scale. I believe it is limited to a couple of times per year. If crews gather in the clubhouse after racing on a regular basis, it is likely to be in violation of their liquor license, which requires customers to be members of the club. I know that is an issue at my yacht club that we do not really have a solution for.

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26 minutes ago, RJW said:

I have not read every posting but the crew membership requirement may not be sailing but rather clubhouse related. The clubhouse liquor license is likely to allow non-member guests but only on a very limited scale. I believe it is limited to a couple of times per year. If crews gather in the clubhouse after racing on a regular basis, it is likely to be in violation of their liquor license, which requires customers to be members of the club. I know that is an issue at my yacht club that we do not really have a solution for.

Ditch teh license?

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Given that the Australian ISAF/WS body have decided hey this seems like a real smart idea, and a lot of small clubs in certain countries are getting very pissy about their national body's governing nonsense, is it possible for clubs to run a "copy" of the RRS, without all the strings attached?

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There already new organizations running event under Col Regs based rules.

Marine authorities seem to issuing aquatic permits on this basis

At least one major insurer has changed policy to wording provide cover.

The effect of this will be to split the sport.

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Whether it's a sailing 'governing body' or a yacht club, the key issue to remember is that asking/requiring an exchange of money implies that there is value being received for that money.  If folks no longer perceive that what you offer is 'worth' the exchange of money, then ---- they won't hand over the money.  You can ask, you can require, but if the value isn't perceived,  your 'business' model doesn't work.  People are voting with their wallets.... so ultimately you have deal with that reality, not what you wish it 'should' be.

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On 2/1/2020 at 8:07 AM, danstanford said:

Our club is going to require crew to obtain and pay for Crew Memberships to be involved in racing this year. The concept seems foreign to me and difficult to manage/enforce but I thought I would ask if it is used successfully elsewhere. The fee is not outrageous but last year I had quite a few fill-ins during the season and I cannot imagine having to buy a membership for them to be able to come out for a race. 


Any experience in other clubs out there?

Dan

Which club?  Want to make sure I don't accidentally go there.

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On 2/1/2020 at 11:12 PM, fastyacht said:

My swim club has always had a $5 per guest charge (yoi would never even telll your guest about it!)

And a limited number of visits per season unless they are guests from far away.

 

I'm guessing your swim club doesnt have a bar.  Let the crew in for free and sell the drinks (even if the owner/member is paying).  Charge them $5 and they all haul ass and start the crew dinner early.  Make sure you have someone with common sense and/business experience on the Board.

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5 hours ago, RJW said:

I have not read every posting but the crew membership requirement may not be sailing but rather clubhouse related. The clubhouse liquor license is likely to allow non-member guests but only on a very limited scale. I believe it is limited to a couple of times per year. If crews gather in the clubhouse after racing on a regular basis, it is likely to be in violation of their liquor license, which requires customers to be members of the club. I know that is an issue at my yacht club that we do not really have a solution for.

Then have "guests” pay for a bar membership, not for sailing.  In the U.S., the percentage of non-member sales allowed by “club” liquor licences varies according to state law. The OP in this thread is in Canada, so this issue may not exist there. AFAIK, the OP has not advised us why his club’s board thinks this is necessary or desirable.  We have only heard that race-boat owners are upset at a possible $25/yr increase in racing fees and it appears the board is trying to find another funding source.   

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10 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

If I race my car, should my pit crew have to buy tickets to get into the race? If they are already driving a long way and working all day for free to watch ME get a trophy - or not - what will asking them to pay to get in do to my ability to race?

Well, at some races crew do need to be bought a pass. We buy for crew, just as I pay for my crew on my boat, but it's a thing. 

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1 hour ago, some dude said:

I'm guessing your swim club doesn't have a bar.  Let the crew in for free and sell the drinks (even if the owner/member is paying).  Charge them $5 and they all haul ass and start the crew dinner early.  Make sure you have someone with common sense and/business experience on the Board.

You may well be correct but it's a pretty damning indictment of what a bad experience we are offering crew that $5 is too much to contribute, its less that the cost of a beer at wherever the crew dinner is going to be.

Maybe the question here is how to make sure that we as a sport (or at a local level as a club or even as a crew) are offering something that everyone values enough that they want to contribute.

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18 hours ago, JimC said:

Is there another sport where people expect to participate in organised events for free? I want to run a marathon or do a cycling event I have to pay an entry fee, I want to do competitive rowing, play soccer or cricket I have to join a club, I want to play squash I have to rent a court... 

The parallels are questionable. When I ran a 5 person boat it cost me lot of money and I didn't want or expect crew to pay me. That opens a whole can of worms of expectations and liability. In this sport, outside 2 person dinghies, the skipper or owner pays the bills and gets the glory, if there's any glory to be had. Being skipper of a boat with more than a couple of crew isn't the same experience as being crew. I did it for a few seasons, it was fun and also stress, I won't ever do it again. 

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On 2/1/2020 at 10:06 AM, Mambo Kings said:

Crew membership at $5 per year is not such a bad idea.

1. Its all about communication stupid. Members provide contact information. The club can include them on blast emails and encourage them to link to the club FB page. They will get to hear about club events and can be encouraged to participate. The club deepens the crew pool and strengthens the relationship with crew as well as owners.  A healthy racing club depends on enthusiastic crew choosing to race with owners at your club because they are made more welcome here than anywhere else.

2.  It gives the crew a sense of belonging and ,membership of the tribe.

3. The crew can buy and charge drinks at the club bar after racing. Its a good feeling if , once in a while, the crew can choose to pick up a tab.

 

Yeah, but how does that play out in reality?....  

"Hey- I have a sail boat and racing it is really cool!  Would you like to come sail with us and give it a try?  Yes? That's great!  First though, I need you to fill out this membership application and give me $5 bucks."

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On 2/4/2020 at 11:08 AM, danstanford said:

As the OP, I would like to express my gratitude for all the feedback. 

FWIW, it is my opinion that the costs are a per boat cost and that we currently underpay for the services we get. To put it another way, the non-racing members of the club are subsidizing the racing activities. To suggest that crew should defray some of this subsidy is likely to have the opposite effect at the end of the day in that less boats may participate but the costs will not change.

In our club, there are no services used by the crew other than tables and chairs on the dining room or the deck. It would be very hard for me to believe that the consumption of beer and food does not contribute to the bottom line but if it does not that should be the first place we look! 

I intend to connect our Commodore to this thread. 

Dan 

A. That owner guy should be buying your food and drinks at the bar, but screw A.

B. Cruisers subsidizing racers?  B.S. I would guess there would be no YACHT club without racers.  Kids don't come down to the dock and say, "ohh look at that preventer, niiiice".  Racing is what puts life into and builds the future of the club.  Pretty soon after you chase off the racers the members will show up to eat and play poker in the back room.  Maybe you should have Take a Cruiser Racing Night.  

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2 minutes ago, PatsyQPatsy said:

Maybe you should have Take a Cruiser Racing Night.  

We have done this.  It has worked to some extent.

 

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On 2/5/2020 at 12:29 PM, RobbieB said:

Yeah, but how does that play out in reality?....  

"Hey- I have a sail boat and racing it is really cool!  Would you like to come sail with us and give it a try?  Yes? That's great!  First though, I need you to fill out this membership application and give me $5 bucks."

5 bucks for EACH PLACE we race at too :rolleyes:

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On 2/5/2020 at 12:48 PM, sshow bob said:

We have done this.  It has worked to some extent.

 

Way back in the day we would send the powerboats and cruisers in the club ahead to start the raft and then send the racers to finish there and raft up. Cruisers had all the beer and ice loaded and waiting :D

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On 2/4/2020 at 6:58 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

If I race my car, should my pit crew have to buy tickets to get into the race? If they are already driving a long way and working all day for free to watch ME get a trophy - or not - what will asking them to pay to get in do to my ability to race?

When a friend of mine was racing and I was part of his pit crew, I had to pay the $20 bucks to get in like anyone else.

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15 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

5 bucks for EACH PLACE we race at too :rolleyes:

Did you pay $5 the first time you were ever invited to step on a sailboat by a friend?  Maybe you brought some beer to be nice.  How do extend that invitation, "Hey- want to come sail with me?  My club requires you pay me $5 for the ride."

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35 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Did you pay $5 the first time you were ever invited to step on a sailboat by a friend?  Maybe you brought some beer to be nice.  How do extend that invitation, "Hey- want to come sail with me?  My club requires you pay me $5 for the ride."

 

On 2/5/2020 at 11:29 AM, RobbieB said:

Yeah, but how does that play out in reality?....  

"Hey- I have a sail boat and racing it is really cool!  Would you like to come sail with us and give it a try?  Yes? That's great!  First though, I need you to fill out this membership application and give me $5 bucks."

So you are assuming that any club that sets up any kind of crew membership is always going to choose the worst possible way to implement it, so no club should ever do this?

Anyone intelligent enough to point out this problem is certainly intelligent enough to come  up with at least 3 different ways to solve it, IF the club has an objective to get better connected to the regular crew who are sailing there, which is what Mambo Kings was suggesting.

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Just now, JohnMB said:

 

So you are assuming that any club that sets up any kind of crew membership is always going to choose the worst possible way to implement it, so no club should ever do this?

Anyone intelligent enough to point out this problem is certainly intelligent enough to come  up with at least 3 different ways to solve it, IF the club has an objective to get better connected to the regular crew who are sailing there, which is what Mambo Kings was suggesting.

point out what problem?  This sounds like a solution without a problem... well maybe the problem that the club wants more funds.  But this is an effed up way to get revenue for the club.  Maybe the coast guard should wait at the pier and bill us every time we leave the slip so we can use their sea lanes.

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12 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

 

So you are assuming that any club that sets up any kind of crew membership is always going to choose the worst possible way to implement it, so no club should ever do this?

Anyone intelligent enough to point out this problem is certainly intelligent enough to come  up with at least 3 different ways to solve it, IF the club has an objective to get better connected to the regular crew who are sailing there, which is what Mambo Kings was suggesting.

OK - A boat shows up to race. The have crew. What do I do? Why do they want to join MY club when they race out of some other club. If I give them a pass, then skipper A had to round up $$$ to let his crew take a piss indoors while skipper B from down the river has to pay nothing. That'll go over well :rolleyes:

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I would rather sit on the dock and order a pizza for everyone than have to tell them "Great race, thanks for coming out. The three of us are going inside, you four can't come" If I where a crew and that was the case, I would find somewhere else to sail where Elihu Smails wasn't the Commodore.

download.jpg

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41 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

OK - A boat shows up to race. The have crew. What do I do? Why do they want to join MY club when they race out of some other club. If I give them a pass, then skipper A had to round up $$$ to let his crew take a piss indoors while skipper B from down the river has to pay nothing. That'll go over well :rolleyes:

The comment that spawned this little sideshow was from mambo kings. He pointed out that there may be circumstances where it is beneficial for the club to keep connected to people who come and crew there and help make them feel part of the club.

Clearly IF that is the objective you can design a system that doesn't force owners to jump through stupid hoops for people who show up occasionally, or are members of other clubs etc. So you would design the system to avoid that.

I totally understand that paperwork and can be cash are barriers, but IF a club is in a situation where it has a significant sized group of people at the club on a regular basis, but those people do not feel part of that club, why would they  not want a way to make a connection with those people. And IF that is there objective it should be possible to design the system to not create unreasonable barriers.

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59 minutes ago, bgytr said:

point out what problem?  This sounds like a solution without a problem... well maybe the problem that the club wants more funds.  But this is an effed up way to get revenue for the club.  Maybe the coast guard should wait at the pier and bill us every time we leave the slip so we can use their sea lanes.

Read Mambo kings post, which started this section off.

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13 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

The comment that spawned this little sideshow was from mambo kings. He pointed out that there may be circumstances where it is beneficial for the club to keep connected to people who come and crew there and help make them feel part of the club.

Clearly IF that is the objective you can design a system that doesn't force owners to jump through stupid hoops for people who show up occasionally, or are members of other clubs etc. So you would design the system to avoid that.

I totally understand that paperwork and can be cash are barriers, but IF a club is in a situation where it has a significant sized group of people at the club on a regular basis, but those people do not feel part of that club, why would they  not want a way to make a connection with those people. And IF that is there objective it should be possible to design the system to not create unreasonable barriers.

The people hanging around should be fertile grounds for voluntary recruitment if the value proposition is there. I'll give three examples of local to me clubs: One is very expensive and few non-member boat crew people would be able to afford to join. You would probably just run every one of them off or if you make some second tier cheap membership, all the big $$$ members will now be quite angry and maybe demote themselves to the cheap level. One club is quite reasonable and DOES manage to convince people they see  lot to sign up because they gain a lot for little cash, including loaner boats. The last club doesn't do much if any sailboat racing, but they do offer a non-voting "pool membership" if you just want to hang around the pool and the bar. The last club sometimes gets complaints the pool/bar/restaurant aspects supersede the boating interests.

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I think KC375 has the right approach, what is the reason for it?

Years ago I was a yearly crew member at a club I raced at regularly.  It was around $300/year if I recall and it provided the crew member access to the club and use of the facilities for 6 months/year.  In comparison an associate membership was $900 and offered year round access and a few other rights.  So essentially a crew membership was a great deal, and if people signed up, it brought in revenue from crew that otherwise would not be paying anything.  I regularly promoted it as the best deal of the summer and while I almost only raced club nights would use the facilities (restaurant and pool) maybe 2-5 times/summer, which also generated revenue.

From what I heard there were a few people that were signing on as crew members and using the club all the time which upset the senior members.  Somewhere along the way they changed the enforcement to say that the crew membership only allowed crew to use the facilities during race events; however, this was not communicated in the application which I checked every year to make sure I was being compliant.

Then one day I take my daughter down to the club on a Saturday morning when an overnight race was coming in.  Plan was to say hi to some friends as they finished the race, expose her to the sport I hoped she would love as much as I did (spoiler alert, she doesn't), have some lunch and go for a swim.  When we went to the pool the lifeguard informed me that crew members were not allowed to use the pool, contrary to the application when I signed up that year.  The funny thing is she had a list of the crew members on a clipboard that were not allowed and it was only 10-15 people.   I figured there were over 150 crew regularly racing at the club over the summer and only 15 were actually paying membership fees and the club was actively trying to limit their use of the facilities.  End result, left the club that day and contacted another club in the area (also more expensive) and proceed to join as a full paying senior member. 

Long story short, I see a benefit to crew memberships but think they should be used as an incentive to get new people in the sport into the club in some capacity.  When I hear talks from clubs about charging crew memberships the message is - these people are taking advantage of our club and we want money from them.  Instead it should be, look at all the great benefits you can get from from this membership and being a part of this club.  There will always be people that try to take advantage of it but better to deal with them individually.

Also, as has been the case for a long time sailing needs more younger people to get involved and the reality is they are not lining up to join clubs or even come out and crew.  Putting up more barriers is not going to help the cause.

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a paper club I am involved with as crew had a crew membership for a while. It was voluntary and got you full access to the club online forums and really that's about it. It was cheap, but mainly a way to get crew who didn't own boats a way to feel a bit more connected to the club and a way for crew to support the club a bit. No voting rights, but no big deal.  Well, the way I heard it was, a group of cruising members got all up in a huff that racing crew were getting a better deal than they were because of this crew membership thing and the whole thing died after about a year. 

So, there an example of a nice way to implement crew memberships for the right reasons, but it still failed spectacularly. 

I am planning on starting to race my boat in this club this year. Low key Wednesday nights only for now, but if they told me I had to get crew memberships for my crew I wouldn't  bother and just keep racing on friends boats who don't sail at this club. Easy choice for me, but not a way to grow the sport.  

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If anyone did this around here, I wonder who would be the first club to have a $1 "crew membership" card you could buy from them to show all the other clubs :lol:

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49 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

Read Mambo kings post, which started this section off.

I did.  Ok if a club wants a crew membership with limited club access, but not allowing folks to crew in a race if they don't have a club membership is idiotic.

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8 minutes ago, bgytr said:

I did.  Ok if a club wants a crew membership with limited club access, but not allowing folks to crew in a race if they don't have a club membership is idiotic.

I don't think anyone actually proposed this.

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5 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

I don't think anyone actually proposed this.

Read the original post.

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I think there is an argument to be made for long term crew / very regular crew should be encouraged to join the club they are spending a lot of time at.  

for example if a crew member is spending two evenings a week plus 10 weekends a year sailing with their friends at the YC. They should join the YC. 

More members, better facilities and better social environment, call it a social membership / crew membership or what ever.. but to have some teams be regular crew for years without joining the club is wrong. When you join the club, you become an advocate and part of the community

The idea that the owners of the boats should cover all costs is ridiculous and is killing the sport.  Bring the sport back to a community focus... and if you want to hang out with your friends whilst doing a little racing and drinking you should cover your share of the pot...

 

 

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Our club has a crew membership. It’s great. Brings people in, is loosely enforced, and gets you free beers (till the two kegs run out) on Thursday and Sunday after racing. Even have a crew parking lot and sticker. All for $105. 

Nothing but helping our club right now. 

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1 hour ago, bgytr said:

Read the original post.

You are correct the original post did propose this. I meant that in the discussion of mambo kings post nothing requires that you don't allow anyone to crew to race without membership. Sorry for my poor explanation.

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Forgive me if this approach has already been mentioned upthread. 

At my club any guest, whether social, cruising, racing etc. needs a guest pass. I think its around ten bucks...and is invariably covered by the member. The bar and restaurant also takes cash, so any guest wanting to cover whatever they feel like is welcome to do so. 

In the case of a regular crew of maybe 4, coming once a week, and say you have 30 boats out on a mid-week race, those revenues, from guest passes alone will add up over the course of a season. 

If an owner suggests that at the very least his crew covers the guest pass portion of things, that doesn't seem too unreasonable. 

As far as food and beverage expenses, that's obviously up to the owner. One good way to do it is the owner covers dinner for each crew and each crew is on their own for the booze tariff. That way, the gracious crew will invariably, one by one, buy the owner a drink and it all evens out, at least somewhat, in the end...in theory(!).

Lastly, any crew is a guest of the owner/member so they are entitled to use whatever facilities they want to, on the day. New day, new pass. So the guest pass approach does not blur any lines that a discounted 'crew membership' approach might do.

 

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Everyone is asking Why is the executive doing this absolutely ridiculous and divisive thing well here is why.

I am a member of the club in question and the reason they are having a crew fee  as well as raising racing fees is to bring their budget into a small positive balance on the backs of the racers.

Last year the year the executive (which is pretty much the same individuals) lost a very large amount of money by giving away thousands in free food, underpricing the food and beverage, and increasing our payroll (we are supposed to be a self help club). In their infinite wisdom this year they decided not to raise dues to all member categories even by a couple of percent to cover the cost of living but to screw over the keel boat racers only as we are the only user group at the club that has to pay any user fees over and above our annual membership. we graciously pay a racing fee to cover our PHRF certificate and a little bit more now they want to double our racing fee and have this new crew fee. Some of us disgruntled members have asked for clarification and questioned some of the other ridiculous budget issues but as yet have not heard a word. We do not own our docks and we rent space from the town to offer reciprocal dockage that costs the club way more than our racing program, the club pays this fee and does not charge our cruisers anything and our center board racers  don't pay a race fee or crew fee, only the keel boat racers and we are the glue that binds the club together, always have been and always will be.

The budget this year shows a very small (under $3,000) profit for the year, with out the doubling of  the race fees and the crew fee they would have a negative budget.

This is a very divisive situation that needs the executive to face up to but their silence speaks volumes.

 

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Sounds like time to drop that club and join a new one.  Or form your own with the keelboat folks.

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On 2/7/2020 at 12:55 PM, Roller Skates said:

Our club has a crew membership. It’s great. Brings people in, is loosely enforced, and gets you free beers (till the two kegs run out) on Thursday and Sunday after racing. Even have a crew parking lot and sticker. All for $105. 

Nothing but helping our club right now. 

Is the crew membership a requirement to crew on a boat at the yacht club?  I can probably drink my 105 in beer, but I'm not paying to crew on your boat.

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On 2/12/2020 at 7:11 AM, Medicine Man said:

Everyone is asking Why is the executive doing this absolutely ridiculous and divisive thing well here is why.

I am a member of the club in question and the reason they are having a crew fee  as well as raising racing fees is to bring their budget into a small positive balance on the backs of the racers.

Last year the year the executive (which is pretty much the same individuals) lost a very large amount of money by giving away thousands in free food, underpricing the food and beverage, and increasing our payroll (we are supposed to be a self help club). In their infinite wisdom this year they decided not to raise dues to all member categories even by a couple of percent to cover the cost of living but to screw over the keel boat racers only as we are the only user group at the club that has to pay any user fees over and above our annual membership. we graciously pay a racing fee to cover our PHRF certificate and a little bit more now they want to double our racing fee and have this new crew fee. Some of us disgruntled members have asked for clarification and questioned some of the other ridiculous budget issues but as yet have not heard a word. We do not own our docks and we rent space from the town to offer reciprocal dockage that costs the club way more than our racing program, the club pays this fee and does not charge our cruisers anything and our center board racers  don't pay a race fee or crew fee, only the keel boat racers and we are the glue that binds the club together, always have been and always will be.

The budget this year shows a very small (under $3,000) profit for the year, with out the doubling of  the race fees and the crew fee they would have a negative budget.

This is a very divisive situation that needs the executive to face up to but their silence speaks volumes.

 

How many racers are on the board? Really, aside from voting with your feet, the only wat to stop this kind of idiocy is to have a seat at the table.

 

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As someone who has been on a Board, it does get old when no one likes the job you are doing but no one will step up and replace you either. I would make an effort to get some racers elected. If the current Board scams the system to prevent their own  removal, time to leave. All of you.

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3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

As someone who has been on a Board, it does get old when no one likes the job you are doing but no one will step up and replace you either. 

Get over that martyr complex, resign and someone will step up. Yes, I've done my stints on committees. I'm a fan of club structures where people aren't allowed to serve for more than a couple of terms. Otherwise you are liable end up with a group of bitter people with no fresh ideas but a fine grasp on why it can't be done, whatever "it" may be.

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

Get over that martyr complex, resign and someone will step up. Yes, I've done my stints on committees. I'm a fan of club structures where people aren't allowed to serve for more than a couple of terms. Otherwise you are liable end up with a group of bitter people with no fresh ideas but a fine grasp on why it can't be done, whatever "it" may be.

Not always. Some clubs would simply vanish. That could be an indication maybe they should vanish if no one wants them to keep going bad enough to do the work???

I know of one that almost lost their club property when the board almost got away with selling the valuable waterfront property to a holding company that would lease it back cheaply. Someone found out the "holding company" WAS the board and there were no plans for it to remain a club :o

* I have actually wondered at how often a club with valuable real estate is taken over or someone tries to do so.

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35 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Not always. Some clubs would simply vanish. That could be an indication maybe they should vanish if no one wants them to keep going bad enough to do the work???

I know of one that almost lost their club property when the board almost got away with selling the valuable waterfront property to a holding company that would lease it back cheaply. Someone found out the "holding company" WAS the board and there were no plans for it to remain a club :o

* I have actually wondered at how often a club with valuable real estate is taken over or someone tries to do so.

There was that acquisition of the Royal Automobile Club (for ~£1 billion).

You never know what value is hidden in your club

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7 minutes ago, KC375 said:

There was that acquisition of the Royal Automobile Club (for ~£1 billion).

You never know what value is hidden in your club

What can we do to persuade Aviva to get interested in acquiring ISAF (aka World Sailing) ?

They are welcome to it for a fraction of the $ 1 bn that they offered for the Royal Automobile Club.

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On 2/4/2020 at 11:31 AM, JohnMB said:

There are many circumstances where crew memberships are absolutely the wrong option. I would definitely put any attempt to use crew memberships to raise revenue in this bucket.

There are circumstances (and clubs) where crew memberships may be a good idea. But these mostly hinge around getting crew to develop a connection with the club that will (hopefully) lead to full membership, and more participation.

100% agree with this post.

If you are need to charge a crew membership to raise revenue, you are already doomed.

If you are creating a crew membership as a courtesy to crew, providing them with a connection to the club and a pathway to participation....then it can (provided it is voluntary, done right and priced right) be a good idea.

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On 2/12/2020 at 10:11 AM, Medicine Man said:

Everyone is asking Why is the executive doing this absolutely ridiculous and divisive thing well here is why.

I am a member of the club in question and the reason they are having a crew fee  as well as raising racing fees is to bring their budget into a small positive balance on the backs of the racers.

Last year the year the executive (which is pretty much the same individuals) lost a very large amount of money by giving away thousands in free food, underpricing the food and beverage, and increasing our payroll (we are supposed to be a self help club). In their infinite wisdom this year they decided not to raise dues to all member categories even by a couple of percent to cover the cost of living but to screw over the keel boat racers only as we are the only user group at the club that has to pay any user fees over and above our annual membership. we graciously pay a racing fee to cover our PHRF certificate and a little bit more now they want to double our racing fee and have this new crew fee. Some of us disgruntled members have asked for clarification and questioned some of the other ridiculous budget issues but as yet have not heard a word. We do not own our docks and we rent space from the town to offer reciprocal dockage that costs the club way more than our racing program, the club pays this fee and does not charge our cruisers anything and our center board racers  don't pay a race fee or crew fee, only the keel boat racers and we are the glue that binds the club together, always have been and always will be.

The budget this year shows a very small (under $3,000) profit for the year, with out the doubling of  the race fees and the crew fee they would have a negative budget.

This is a very divisive situation that needs the executive to face up to but their silence speaks volumes.

 

Doomed!

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On 2/4/2020 at 11:08 AM, danstanford said:

As the OP, I would like to express my gratitude for all the feedback. 

FWIW, it is my opinion that the costs are a per boat cost and that we currently underpay for the services we get. To put it another way, the non-racing members of the club are subsidizing the racing activities. To suggest that crew should defray some of this subsidy is likely to have the opposite effect at the end of the day in that less boats may participate but the costs will not change.

In our club, there are no services used by the crew other than tables and chairs on the dining room or the deck. It would be very hard for me to believe that the consumption of beer and food does not contribute to the bottom line but if it does not that should be the first place we look! 

I intend to connect our Commodore to this thread. 

Dan 

Would it be churlish to point out that :

  • At every golf and country club around where I live, the non-golf playing members are subsidizing the golf. 
  • At every tennis club, the non-tennis playing members subsidize the tennis.
  • At the sailing club I belong to, the club is very transparent on its membership page that this club is dedicated to sailboat racing and running an excellent junior sailing program. However we have a beautiful location on a beautiful lake and we extend a warm welcome to a number of social members who do not race and many who do not sail (but often volunteer) and even some power boat owners. They are under no illusions and know from the outset that they are subsidizing the sailing and are glad to do so. It is after all, a sailing club.  

Why does it cause non-racing members of a sailing club/yacht club any angst to discover that the sailing club subsidizes sail boat racing?

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31 minutes ago, IPLore said:

...

Why does it cause non-racing members of a sailing club/yacht club any angst to discover that the sailing club subsidizes sail boat racing?

It all depends on what the expectation was when they joined...they may have thought they were joining a "sailing" club and you are describing an arrangement that shifts money from some sailors to other sailors (the racers). If the expectations were that the club is a racing club and if you don't participate in racing then you are effectively subsidizing racing...that would be fair.

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57 minutes ago, IPLore said:

What can we do to persuade Aviva to get interested in acquiring ISAF (aka World Sailing) ?

They are welcome to it for a fraction of the $ 1 bn that they offered for the Royal Automobile Club.

There might be an angle there. Most members of the RAC had no idea of the hidden value in the club. If you applied proper commercial management to ISAF or even better to the Olympics...imagine what you could do.

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Back in the day, when it cost money to send out the newsletter, a modest charge was defensible. 

Now with WWW and email, there's no incremental costs and should not be incremental billing. 

We require the boat to be entered by a member of an affiliated club, and to pay the YRA (regional organization) and who has a valid USSAILING number. 

Crew members are required to sign in to the bar, and wear a write on name tag, Members wear their engraved name tag, Officers have bigger name tags with the office noted. Visitors from other clubs are requested to wear name tags (either their home club's cruising tags or write on) and to register. 

Entry fees are typically $10-20/race for a series, more for a single race event. Currently entries are not scaled to boat size (or rating... :-) ) 

 

 

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Charging crew to go sailing on other people’s fully paid up, fully insured boats.
How stupid! Bloody yanks. 
pff. 
That would never happen in Australia. 

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12 hours ago, IPLore said:

Would it be churlish to point out that :

  • At every golf and country club around where I live, the non-golf playing members are subsidizing the golf. 
  • At every tennis club, the non-tennis playing members subsidize the tennis.
  • At the sailing club I belong to, the club is very transparent on its membership page that this club is dedicated to sailboat racing and running an excellent junior sailing program. However we have a beautiful location on a beautiful lake and we extend a warm welcome to a number of social members who do not race and many who do not sail (but often volunteer) and even some power boat owners. They are under no illusions and know from the outset that they are subsidizing the sailing and are glad to do so. It is after all, a sailing club.  

Why does it cause non-racing members of a sailing club/yacht club any angst to discover that the sailing club subsidizes sail boat racing?

I certainly can understand your last bullet here but as for the first one, the club I belong to and many other here have a membership for non-golfing members called a social membership that costs much less and does not include golf privileges. In fact, our yacht club has an associate membership for non-owners of boats that is about half what I pay as a boat owner, and please remember we don't have any docks of our own as we are attached to a municipal marina. 

I don't profess to have all the answers, but it seems all the membership rates at clubs I have belonged to have some user pay element to them. We would all share some of the core costs but the rest of the fee structure is based on the costs to the club save for junior memberships which presumably are aimed at development and retention of members. 

I, for one, am happy to pay my fair share as a member and racer and if that means I pay a higher fee than someone who does not race then I am content. 

Dan

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2 hours ago, danstanford said:

I certainly can understand your last bullet here but as for the first one, the club I belong to and many other here have a membership for non-golfing members called a social membership that costs much less and does not include golf privileges. In fact, our yacht club has an associate membership for non-owners of boats that is about half what I pay as a boat owner, and please remember we don't have any docks of our own as we are attached to a municipal marina. 

I don't profess to have all the answers, but it seems all the membership rates at clubs I have belonged to have some user pay element to them. We would all share some of the core costs but the rest of the fee structure is based on the costs to the club save for junior memberships which presumably are aimed at development and retention of members. 

I, for one, am happy to pay my fair share as a member and racer and if that means I pay a higher fee than someone who does not race then I am content. 

Dan

Of course one of the challenges with user pay...is what are the actual costs. The larger the club the more the breadth of activities the harder it is to really understand costs, a problem exacerbated by the relative lack of administrative sophistication given that even the biggest clubs are really small businesses.

Do you allocate direct cash costs and everything else is just smeared around to the rest of membership or do you try to allocate some fixed or property costs. Some examples:

Take lawn bowling – small membership with seemingly little direct attributed cost...but very demanding grounds keeping requirements way out of proportion to space and buried in general costs. Using exclusively a significant share of prime club space (where property cost through lease, taxes, maintenance, etc. is nontrivial). Space involved per user is probably the highest of any section of the club...on the other hand the incremental liability insurance for lawn bowling is probably small compared to junior sailing. Most quick look at direct cash costs would say lawn bowling pays its share. Most reasonable efforts at management accounting would say law bowling is getting a free ride.

How about harbour costs. These were traditionally charged on a length basis...but then boats got wider and god forbid multihulls...when looking at the constraints and drivers of cost it looks like draft might be the biggest driver given recurring dredging costs and increased dredging driving up bulkhead costs etc. all of which are long cycle time not directly allocated costs....

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My club skippers don’t have to even be a member to enter the summer race series,  but if you want your scores to count for end of the season awards you need to be a member 

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If you get beyond a simple racing club the issues get complicated. The most important things for decision making for long run club success are engagement, transparency and consensus.

Anyone who has spent a decade or more in a membership organization knows you can’t hid stuff for ever. If something has been hidden ...when the truth comes out the bitterness can be deep, long lasting and threaten the viability of the club.

Engagement and consensus should not be taken to mean everyone agrees...I suggest instead aim for everyone with an opinion was heard and knows they were heard and understood...even if disagreed with. The decision is supported by the majority and the majority of the minority knows why the decision was taken and are reconciled to it.

Set some broad principles, with examples and gain consensus.

Apply those principles transparently and consistently including being transparent and consistent with exceptions.

E.G.s

·         The club is not a charity it should seek to cover all costs on an annual basis while building an operating surplus to weather economic cycles, periodic expenditures, and surprises. In general participants should fund the cost of activities.

·         The core purpose of this club is to promote sailing which may from time to time benefit from other revenues (e.g. subsidize junior sailing or high performance team); all other activities must cover their full costs and or demonstrably provide substantial benefit to the over all membership.

·         Where an activity is core to an established group of members, especially multidecade and life-members, and it is heavily subsidised the pace of transition to self funding or elimination of the activity should consider the ability of those members to absorb the increased costs and the lifetime contribution to the club of those members. (i.e. let the nonagenarians continue their century old lawn bowling tradition for another decade but make sure the brand new breakdancing section is self funding)

Taking the time to come to and implement a controversial decision in a membership organization can be frustrating. It is way less frustrating than trying to rebuild an organization that lost cohesion.

The urge to "get stuff done" can be one of the most dangerous things in the leadership of a membership organization. I've seen more than a few really good ideas rushed to implementation that caused real damage because the membership was not yet behind the initiative.

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On 2/4/2020 at 11:59 AM, RJW said:

I have not read every posting but the crew membership requirement may not be sailing but rather clubhouse related. The clubhouse liquor license is likely to allow non-member guests but only on a very limited scale. I believe it is limited to a couple of times per year. If crews gather in the clubhouse after racing on a regular basis, it is likely to be in violation of their liquor license, which requires customers to be members of the club. I know that is an issue at my yacht club that we do not really have a solution for.

That depends on the jurisdiction. It's definitely an issue in some locations. And, where applicable, your choice is to go dry or to find a way to formally sign up frequent guest as members. You still need to find some way to couple that with some benefits beyond simply being crew. If it's a license issue, and the venue is attractive on other occasions than race days, a natural benefit would be to allow unrestricted visits to the bar on any day (and ability to sign in an occasional bar guest). Conversely, you'd make crew who don't want to use the bar complimentary. If it's a licensing issue, people might be more understanding than if it's merely money grabbing.

If practical, sign people up for that at the bar, not at race registration.

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On 2/15/2020 at 5:44 PM, green03 said:

That depends on the jurisdiction. It's definitely an issue in some locations. And, where applicable, your choice is to go dry or to find a way to formally sign up frequent guest as members. You still need to find some way to couple that with some benefits beyond simply being crew. If it's a license issue, and the venue is attractive on other occasions than race days, a natural benefit would be to allow unrestricted visits to the bar on any day (and ability to sign in an occasional bar guest). Conversely, you'd make crew who don't want to use the bar complimentary. If it's a licensing issue, people might be more understanding than if it's merely money grabbing.

If practical, sign people up for that at the bar, not at race registration.

We’re talking about Canada.  Not US rules. % of nonmember liquor sales is not an issue.  The OP has pointed out that the club board has been underpricing food & beverage services that are provided to all members, but seems to  want the racing sailors to make up the difference.  Does not make sense logically or financially.  People will, and should, walk with their feet, as has been suggested.  

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On 2/13/2020 at 9:14 PM, LionessRacing said:

Crew members are required to ... wear a write-on name tag, Members wear their engraved name tag, Officers have bigger name tags with the office noted. Visitors from other clubs are requested to wear name tags (either their home club's cruising tags or write-on)

How incredibly tacky. :wacko:

Name tags are appropriate for bus drivers, or a second-rate insurance agents’ convention. For a yacht club, not so much.

On 2/12/2020 at 10:11 AM, Medicine Man said:

I am a member of the club in question and the reason they are having a crew fee as well as raising racing fees Ismail to bring their budget into a small positive balance on the backs of the racers.

Last year the year the executive (which is pretty much the same individuals) lost a very large amount of money by giving away thousands in free food, underpricing the food and beverage, and increasing our payroll (we are supposed to be a self help club). In their infinite wisdom this year they decided not to raise dues to all member categories even by a couple of percent to cover the cost of living but to screw over the keel boat racers only as we are the only user group at the club that has to pay any user fees over and above our annual membership. we graciously pay a racing fee to cover our PHRF certificate and a little bit more now they want to double our racing fee and have this new crew fee. Some of us disgruntled members have asked for clarification and questioned some of the other ridiculous budget issues but as yet have not heard a word. We do not own our docks and we rent space from the town to offer reciprocal dockage that costs the club way more than our racing program, the club pays this fee and does not charge our cruisers anything and our center board racers  don't pay a race fee or crew fee, only the keel boat racers and we are the glue that binds the club together, always have been and always will be.

The budget this year shows a very small (under $3,000) profit for the year, with out the doubling of the race fees and the crew fee they would have a negative budget.

This is a very divisive situation that needs the executive to face up to but their silence speaks volumes.

What club are we talking about? 

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On 2/14/2020 at 8:58 AM, KC375 said:

Take lawn bowling – small membership with seemingly little direct attributed cost...but very demanding grounds keeping requirements way out of proportion to space and buried in general costs. Using exclusively a significant share of prime club space (where property cost through lease, taxes, maintenance, etc. is nontrivial). Space involved per user is probably the highest of any section of the club...on the other hand the incremental liability insurance for lawn bowling is probably small compared to junior sailing. Most quick look at direct cash costs would say lawn bowling pays its share. Most reasonable efforts at management accounting would say law bowling is getting a free ride.

Lawn bowling: seriously? How is that remotely relevant to any yacht club?

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21 minutes ago, Svanen said:

Lawn bowling: seriously? How is that remotely relevant to any yacht club?

Not at all for most yacht clubs, thus the choice of example as amusingly obscure to most.

But take a sail about 25 miles to the west and you might be surprised what you find...or just Google

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40 minutes ago, Svanen said:

...

Name tags are appropriate for bus drivers, or a second-rate insurance agents’ convention. For a yacht club, not so much.

 

That was sort of my reaction...

How much of a club is it if you need name tags.

But name tags / ID badges have become the norm in the workplace for corporate security reasons...maybe all the more reason to resist in the noncorporate space

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42 minutes ago, Svanen said:

Lawn bowling: seriously? How is that remotely relevant to any yacht club?

Just like the San Diego Tennis, Country, Cardplaying and Yacht Club.

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10 hours ago, Svanen said:

How incredibly tacky. :wacko:

Name tags are appropriate for bus drivers, or a second-rate insurance agents’ convention. For a yacht club, not so much.

What club are we talking about? 

SVANEN

When you leave your harbor turn to port sail approx. 40 nm. you will find us. You can tie up on the west side of the centre pier that the club pays the town for us to offer reciprocals. That is a club expense it pays for the cruisers but racers have to pay extra to race and now a crew fee. This purely a money grab to put their ridiculous budget into a positive position. Without these fees they in a negative position.

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On 2/4/2020 at 11:08 AM, danstanford said:

As the OP, I would like to express my gratitude for all the feedback. 

FWIW, it is my opinion that the costs are a per boat cost and that we currently underpay for the services we get. To put it another way, the non-racing members of the club are subsidizing the racing activities. To suggest that crew should defray some of this subsidy is likely to have the opposite effect at the end of the day in that less boats may participate but the costs will not change.

In our club, there are no services used by the crew other than tables and chairs on the dining room or the deck. It would be very hard for me to believe that the consumption of beer and food does not contribute to the bottom line but if it does not that should be the first place we look! 

I intend to connect our Commodore to this thread. 

Dan 

 

On 2/12/2020 at 10:11 AM, Medicine Man said:

Everyone is asking Why is the executive doing this absolutely ridiculous and divisive thing well here is why.

I am a member of the club in question and the reason they are having a crew fee  as well as raising racing fees is to bring their budget into a small positive balance on the backs of the racers.

Last year the year the executive (which is pretty much the same individuals) lost a very large amount of money by giving away thousands in free food, underpricing the food and beverage, and increasing our payroll (we are supposed to be a self help club). In their infinite wisdom this year they decided not to raise dues to all member categories even by a couple of percent to cover the cost of living but to screw over the keel boat racers only as we are the only user group at the club that has to pay any user fees over and above our annual membership. we graciously pay a racing fee to cover our PHRF certificate and a little bit more now they want to double our racing fee and have this new crew fee. Some of us disgruntled members have asked for clarification and questioned some of the other ridiculous budget issues but as yet have not heard a word. We do not own our docks and we rent space from the town to offer reciprocal dockage that costs the club way more than our racing program, the club pays this fee and does not charge our cruisers anything and our center board racers  don't pay a race fee or crew fee, only the keel boat racers and we are the glue that binds the club together, always have been and always will be.

The budget this year shows a very small (under $3,000) profit for the year, with out the doubling of  the race fees and the crew fee they would have a negative budget.

This is a very divisive situation that needs the executive to face up to but their silence speaks volumes.

 

I think I’ve visited your club in the past (based on its relative distance from Whitby) and enjoyed it so I hope you guys can work things out.

Your two posts above may point you guys at some key issues to explore.

One of you believes the keel boat racers are subsidised by the rest of the membership and the other that you are being milked to cover costs other members are not paying for.

Digging in to understanding the actual costs (cash and allocated) would be important as

1.       It can build consensus amongst the keel boat racers; and

2.       It can point you to solutions.

You will probably not get a perfect handle on costs so you should accept a reasonable +/-. If you end up concluding that you are being overcharged a small amount...well it’s probably less costly than the fight/effort to something so just suck it up and get more active in club governance.

If you are underpaying then it is reasonable to pay up...and reasonable for your fleet to identify how it wishes to pay up...be that crew membership, racing fees, minimum Food and Beverage per boat....

If you are significantly overpaying and you care enough – you could all convert to cruising members so you can continue to use club facilities. Then form your own dedicated racing club – no facilities needed just buy an RC boat and organize RC and Protest Committee – either rotating volunteers or hire some help. If that is too expensive then maybe you are not overpaying under the new proposal....

If I’m right in my guess of clubs it looks like you have about 25 regularly active keel boat racers...you might be surprised how much your per boat costs end up being.

Best of luck sorting this. I'd put an emphasis on fleet and club cohesion...which is most likely if everyone talks through the issues with no hidden numbers.

 

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13 hours ago, Svanen said:

How incredibly tacky. :wacko:

Name tags are appropriate for bus drivers, or a second-rate insurance agents’ convention. For a yacht club, not so much.

State Liquor laws for Private Clubs 

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18 hours ago, Svanen said:

Lawn bowling: seriously? How is that remotely relevant to any yacht club?

Some clubs store their dinghys in a container on the beach and some clubs have lawn bowling. Fees are commensurate.

The only reason I’ve lasted at said club for over four decades is to steer fucking clear of club politics and go straight to my boat.

Racing? Pretty sure they’ll be doing the same rush to the dock bitch about something or someone, rush to the start line, race, get back to the dock and bitch about something else next time I barely notice. If it gets their rocks off good for them.

Who pays for it? Food, beverage and weddings. 

Do I care about it? Couldn’t give a flying fuck about it.

 I’ll spare you my rant about the genius transformation of the south courts into a marine junkyard and go listen to ‘Paved Paradise Put up a Parking Lot’

Fucking bean counters wanna monetize lawn bowling? Get off my fucking lawn.

Rant over. 

 

 

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