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Grande Mastere Dreade

start line questions.

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ok, watching a video on starting techniques and during part of it they were explaining something if the windward mark was not centered to the start line..    i've always setup the pin to be dead down wind as possible to the windward mark..  (W-L course)    not in the middle  of the startline...  we also have a bunch of PRO's who setup the windward mark as being dead down wind of the committee boat..    so what does everyone else do ?    i didn't find anything mentioned in the RRS

 

also, if someone(s) are  OCS,  once the horn and X flag are up , we call out the boat numbers..   RRS doesn't mention a verbal signal.  the other day we had 10 boats pretty close to the line when the x flag went up,  no verbal boat numbers so it was confusing as to who was over    what do y'all for OCS boats ?

 

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In the SIs, add something like this:

The race committee may attempt to hail boats OCS. The hail, lack of a hail, or failure to hear a hail will not be grounds for redress.

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51 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

ok, watching a video on starting techniques and during part of it they were explaining something if the windward mark was not centered to the start line..    i've always setup the pin to be dead down wind as possible to the windward mark..  (W-L course)    not in the middle  of the startline...  we also have a bunch of PRO's who setup the windward mark as being dead down wind of the committee boat..    so what does everyone else do ?    i didn't find anything mentioned in the RRS

 

also, if someone(s) are  OCS,  once the horn and X flag are up , we call out the boat numbers..   RRS doesn't mention a verbal signal.  the other day we had 10 boats pretty close to the line when the x flag went up,  no verbal boat numbers so it was confusing as to who was over    what do y'all for OCS boats ?

 

Read the WS racing manual for guidelines (https://www.sailing.org/35374.php)

L.4 The Windward Leg
..

The recommended method for setting courses now is to use a reference point in front of the
start line as per Appendix 1

..

Appendix 1 covers all the pro's and con's of setting the windward mark relative to middle or either end of the line.

 

OCS - its up to the individuals to decide if they were over. No obligation to call them unless its in the SI's. As long as the start boat can record who was over and who came back, then lower X when they've all fulfilled their obligations.

 

As Varan says, write something like this in the SI's if you normally call out. Make sure you give the RO an out.

A boat identified as OCS or as one that has not complied with RRS 30.1 may be identified by hail from the start vessel. Failure to hail shall not be grounds for redress (this changes RRS 62.1)

 

 

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we also have a bunch of PRO's who setup the windward mark as being dead down wind of the committee boat

Wow - I've never heard of a windward mark being dead down wind of the boat, but I can see how that causes a lot of confusion; I'm not sure it's possible to be OCS.

Do you also set the offset to the left for port roundings? Is there much shouting?

 

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There are a few things going on here. Focus on the line first. Forget the windward mark. The line is supposed to be set square(perpendicular) to the wind if you follow the IYRA guidelines as the others have posted.  Neither end is favoured. 

Race committees often set the pin end favoured to limit the number of barging boats. The reality is they set it and then the wind moves before the start.

Next the mark. This is a harder concept to understand without looking at a drawing. If the line is square it doesn’t matter where the windward mark is located on the course. It will always be the same distance from anywhere on the start line. Even if you can fetch(straight line) from the boat end, the distance will be identical from the pin end + 1 tack. The favoured end of the line is the one further upwind. Therefore it is closer to the mark regardless of it’s location. 

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I think in Marblehead, the order of operations is:

  1. Anchor the comedy boat.
  2. Drop the leeward gate ~1/4 mi upwind
  3. send the markboat upwind using the gate as reference
  4. square the line before the first warning (and by square, it's usually pin favored to protect the comedy boat ;) )
  5. drop the finish pin.

YMMV

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47 minutes ago, CaptainAhab said:

Next the mark. This is a harder concept to understand without looking at a drawing. If the line is square it doesn’t matter where the windward mark is located on the course. It will always be the same distance from anywhere on the start line. Even if you can fetch(straight line) from the boat end, the distance will be identical from the pin end + 1 tack. The favoured end of the line is the one further upwind. Therefore it is closer to the mark regardless of it’s location. 

as long as the top mark is within the rectangle defined by one end of the line.

 

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1 hour ago, Moonduster said:

we also have a bunch of PRO's who setup the windward mark as being dead down wind of the committee boat

Wow - I've never heard of a windward mark being dead down wind of the boat, but I can see how that causes a lot of confusion; I'm not sure it's possible to be OCS.

Do you also set the offset to the left for port roundings? Is there much shouting?

 

yeah yeah,  you know what i meant..   the mark was setup  in line with the wind and the committee boat..   not the leeward mark

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56 minutes ago, ryley said:

I think in Marblehead, the order of operations is:

  1. Anchor the comedy boat.
  2. Drop the leeward gate ~1/4 mi upwind
  3. send the markboat upwind using the gate as reference
  4. square the line before the first warning (and by square, it's usually pin favored to protect the comedy boat ;) )
  5. drop the finish pin.

YMMV

4. Square is a variable definition depending on the size, material and ownership of the committee boat.  Large and steel doesn't need much protection, but I heard a VHF call last year "anyone hitting the committee boat will be OCS for the next three years" when it was a flag officer's yacht.

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1 hour ago, CaptainAhab said:

There are a few things going on here. Focus on the line first. Forget the windward mark. The line is supposed to be set square(perpendicular) to the wind if you follow the IYRA guidelines as the others have posted.  Neither end is favoured. 

Race committees often set the pin end favoured to limit the number of barging boats. The reality is they set it and then the wind moves before the start.

Next the mark. This is a harder concept to understand without looking at a drawing. If the line is square it doesn’t matter where the windward mark is located on the course. It will always be the same distance from anywhere on the start line. Even if you can fetch(straight line) from the boat end, the distance will be identical from the pin end + 1 tack. The favoured end of the line is the one further upwind. Therefore it is closer to the mark regardless of it’s location. 

i think your geometry is off..  the distance won't be that much difference , but it will be different...  what i'm trying to do is get the course as square, ( which is impossible) as possible.. if the  WM , wind , committee boat are aligned , and say the pin is  200 feet away then it's skewed to begin with... but then again, this isn't a big boat course, biggest boat racing is 20'

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1 hour ago, CaptainAhab said:

There are a few things going on here. Focus on the line first. Forget the windward mark. The line is supposed to be set square(perpendicular) to the wind if you follow the IYRA guidelines as the others have posted.  Neither end is favoured.

 

i find it easier having the pin / wm lined up to the wind, knowing what the course direction is and what 90 degrees off of that is..

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5 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

 

i find it easier having the pin / wm lined up to the wind, knowing what the course direction is and what 90 degrees off of that is..

It really doesn't matter if the WM is lined up with the wind. It does matter if the pin is.

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27 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

as long as the top mark is within the rectangle defined by one end of the line.

 

As long as no boat is able to sail below close hauled and still fetch the mark then the mark is the same distance from any point on the start line. Ideally you want it so every boat has to tack at least once to fetch the mark. The shape is more triangle than rectangle.

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6 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

As long as no boat is able to sail below close hauled and still fetch the mark then the mark is the same distance from any point on the start line. Ideally you want it so every boat has to tack at least once to fetch the mark. The shape is more triangle than rectangle.

The first 3 minutes explains what JohnMB is trying to get across.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xit8oBOMMDo&t=1s

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Little sketch for clarity. top mark is way off to the left of the course. but distance to fetch for boat near pin or boat new CB is A+B+C.

The mark can be anywhere between the lines from the start marks.

 

 

 

Capture1.PNG

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3 hours ago, JohnMB said:

As long as no boat is able to sail below close hauled and still fetch the mark then the mark is the same distance from any point on the start line. Ideally you want it so every boat has to tack at least once to fetch the mark. The shape is more triangle than rectangle.

yes - sorry, that's what I meant. As long as you can't fetch it by going below close hauled.

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If the course is long enough it makes little difference. Short courses, yes.

But, as a small boat racer, I like the downwind leg to be straight downwind.  Otherwise one jibe is favored.

Only way to make that second leg straight down wind is to make  leeward mark the starting point to set the windward mark. Not the RC boat or the pin end of the starting line.

An offset makes it even more skewed if the RC boat end is used to set the windward mark. Dave Ellis (RC for small performance boats.)

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30 minutes ago, sailwriter said:

If the course is long enough it makes little difference. Short courses, yes.

But, as a small boat racer, I like the downwind leg to be straight downwind.  Otherwise one jibe is favored.

Only way to make that second leg straight down wind is to make  leeward mark the starting point to set the windward mark. Not the RC boat or the pin end of the starting line.

An offset makes it even more skewed if the RC boat end is used to set the windward mark. Dave Ellis (RC for small performance boats.)

Very true, it has a significant effect on the downwind leg, and if its too far off center it dramatically reduces the tactical options upwind as you are close to the lay line so much sooner.

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5 hours ago, JohnMB said:

Little sketch for clarity. top mark is way off to the left of the course. but distance to fetch for boat near pin or boat new CB is A+B+C.

The mark can be anywhere between the lines from the start marks.

 

 

 

Capture1.PNG

All true, however the whole fleet will be at the end of the line that appears closer to the top mark and a shit fight will ensue.

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19 minutes ago, trt131 said:

All true, however the whole fleet will be at the end of the line that appears closer to the top mark and a shit fight will ensue.

Which is why its good to understand the concept, you can then avoid the shitfight as you know it has no impact on the distance sailed.

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9 hours ago, JohnMB said:

As long as no boat is able to sail below close hauled and still fetch the mark then the mark is the same distance from any point on the start line. Ideally you want it so every boat has to tack at least once to fetch the mark. The shape is more triangle than rectangle.

That could still be a properly shit course, there no real excuse for that unless it's very shifty, or you have a restriction on where you can put the mark.

A good RO or mark layer will set the mark based on the mid point of the start line. On a short line or a long leg it's not that important. On a long line with a short leg it is.

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As far as clouting the committee boat is concerned, lay an inner distance mark or stream a RIB off the stern, (one of my pet hates!)

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I was using the extreme example of fetching the windward mark from the boat end because it is extreme and makes you think.

The geometry is quite simple draw it in a piece of graph paper. 45 degree angles, square line. Measure it. The guy at the pin end sails a distance tacks and then sails a distance to the mark. Add them up and it exactly equals the single distance sailed by the dude at the boat end. 

I did not mean fetch on a reach.  We don’t teach such things. That would require a massive wind shift right before the start or idiots are manning the boat. 

 

This is the drawing I use when teaching this stuff at the clinics. 

 

 

B732ADC3-6A17-4B38-9F80-DEEC7C863FC8.jpeg

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7 hours ago, Chapter Four said:

Which is why its good to understand the concept, you can then avoid the shitfight as you know it has no impact on the distance sailed.

True, if the wind stays exactly perpendicular to the start line for the entire windward leg, probability = 0.

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5 hours ago, European Bloke said:

That could still be a properly shit course, there no real excuse for that unless it's very shifty, or you have a restriction on where you can put the mark.

 

Absolutely,  it was an extreme example to show that small discrepancies in the position of the windward mark do not have a significant effect.

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When we sail in open ish waters, 

I try to set the windward mark centred on the line,  if however we have a large  entry, I like to bias the line a bit to favour the port end, that splits the fleet up a bit..

From the committee boat we have a boat or two lengths out, an orange Bouy marked "KEEP OUT" if you sail inside that anytime from the 5 minute onwards you're DSQ. Beyond that is the green Inner distance normally a boat or two lengths out from the Orange bouy so you can push those trying to squeeze through, up and out..it's not permitted to push a boat between the orange bouy and the committee boat. The outer Distance with the triangle is of course some distance on..

We don't normally go straight into a run off the windward mark, but across the top, then run, then across the bottom, so the last mark is mid in line with the start finish.

The above is because with several fleets it would be unfair to put the running boats back through the following fleets start line. (There are normally 6 or 7 starts)

Wind shifts before the start, we get plenty, but it has to be serious before we halt reset and start again.

Our courses Do often have a favoured side, this is because the winds bend round hillsides and or trees, Sometimes even without a bias to the start line it may favour a Port start. You hope if you're on port someone doesn't come down the line on Startboard perfectly timing it to cross the line in front of the port  starters at the pin, then tacking onto port to gain the advantage..

 

In stronger winds instead of a square we often  set a mis shapen M course where the first leg is to windward, the second is a bit off a run to one side of the committee boat to avoid the starters, then a windward leg to a second windward mark, then round the outside to the bottom mark behind the start finish line.. As you can guess a much longer windward leg is impossible because you run out of water...

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On 2/4/2020 at 6:47 PM, Varan said:

In the SIs, add something like this:

The race committee may attempt to hail boats OCS. The hail, lack of a hail, or failure to hear a hail will not be grounds for redress.

I've also seen the SIs specify that the order of hailing (since the last boat hailed is at some disadvantage compared to the first boat hailed) is not grounds for redress.

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On 2/5/2020 at 3:34 AM, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

ok, watching a video on starting techniques and during part of it they were explaining something if the windward mark was not centered to the start line..    i've always setup the pin to be dead down wind as possible to the windward mark..  (W-L course)    not in the middle  of the startline...  we also have a bunch of PRO's who setup the windward mark as being dead down wind of the committee boat..    so what does everyone else do ?    i didn't find anything mentioned in the RRS (...)

If you are worrying about that your upwind leg is too short. As long as your line is 90 degrees to the wind, the upwind mark can be anywhere inside the laylines. (If your line hangs a little, maybe shift the mark to the "wrong" side to confuse the n00bs.)

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1 minute ago, 10thTonner said:

If you are worrying about that your upwind leg is too short. As long as your line is 90 degrees to the wind, the upwind mark can be anywhere inside the laylines. (If your line hangs a little, maybe shift the mark to the "wrong" side to confuse the n00bs.)

When coaching we do this all the time. The extreme changes to the start line & windward mark makes it really obvious why some guy does a horizon job by understanding that the favoured end is not determined by the actual straight line distance from the pin or boat. 
 

These are the ideas that are easier  to learn from on the water practice drills in dinghies. We’ll run 10 really short windward leeward course in an hour. Making massive changes to the line and windward marks each race. 
 

Hard to do in the big boats. 

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22 hours ago, sailwriter said:

If the course is long enough it makes little difference. Short courses, yes.

But, as a small boat racer, I like the downwind leg to be straight downwind.  Otherwise one jibe is favored.

Only way to make that second leg straight down wind is to make  leeward mark the starting point to set the windward mark. Not the RC boat or the pin end of the starting line.

An offset makes it even more skewed if the RC boat end is used to set the windward mark. Dave Ellis (RC for small performance boats.)

 

i guess i should have stated this earlier,   our pin is the leeward mark...     and as far as setting an offset,  i try and get the wm crew to keep it within 3 boat lengths and leeward to the weather mark...    

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7 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

 

i guess i should have stated this earlier,   our pin is the leeward mark...     and as far as setting an offset,  i try and get the wm crew to keep it within 3 boat lengths and leeward to the weather mark...    

Feel free to reposition the pin after the start. Sound and visual signals as described in your SIs.

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19 hours ago, European Bloke said:

Feel free to reposition the pin after the start. Sound and visual signals as described in your SIs.

unless there's a persistent shift, i like keeping the banded mark use, to a minimum...

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If you have the luxury of mark set boats and a comedy boat, you can mess with all of that.

We have two basic scenarios:

  1. weekend races around fixed government ATONs with a moored committee boat vs an ATON starting line
  2. Beercans with the "race deck" off the bar of the clubhouse to a starting buoy that's dropped along with other temp buoys 

In the first case, you might be able to modulate the anchoring to achieve some squareness, in the second it's not feasible. Both can provide enjoyable, tactical racing. 

 

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On 2/6/2020 at 7:47 PM, Whinging Pom said:

As far as clouting the committee boat is concerned, lay an inner distance mark or stream a RIB off the stern, (one of my pet hates!)

With the outboard tilted up of course.

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On 2/5/2020 at 5:21 PM, Tax Man said:

4. Square is a variable definition depending on the size, material and ownership of the committee boat.  Large and steel doesn't need much protection, but I heard a VHF call last year "anyone hitting the committee boat will be OCS for the next three years" when it was a flag officer's yacht.

Totally agree. I did something similar to this a regional Laser regatta, years ago.

I had seen most of these guys race and they liked to play bumper boats, and I did NOT want my nice boat banged up so I announced at the Skippers Meeting, any boat colliding with the Race Committee Boat for any reason would be scored DNS for that race.

One guy hit the boat, and tried to raise hell (it dropped him off the podium) but he was shouted down by other competitors. I was prepared to say "Appeal all you want, I got the score sheets and can flush 'em so there's no races for ANY of you" but fortunately it didn't come to that.

Square start lines, yes. Try to gage the wind shifts and get it close to square to the average, or slightly pin-favored. The side-to-side placement of the windward mark does not matter as long as the boats have to tack to get to it.

FB- Doug

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4 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

The side-to-side placement of the windward mark does not matter as long as the boats have to tack to get to it.

But it does dramatically affect the run if it is not square.  Lots of passing on the run if the course is set square.  Back in the day it didn't matter about  the run as thats when you pulled out the lunch and beers, it was only a way of getting down to the bottom to then race upwind again.

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1 minute ago, trt131 said:
7 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

The side-to-side placement of the windward mark does not matter as long as the boats have to tack to get to it.

But it does dramatically affect the run if it is not square.  Lots of passing on the run if the course is set square.  Back in the day it didn't matter about  the run as thats when you pulled out the lunch and beers, it was only a way of getting down to the bottom to then race upwind again.

Meh

If your windward-leeward leg is one mile, it would take a huge offset one way or the other to make that much difference. Longer, even less difference. Try the math of figuring out what angle a  200 yard offset will produce in a mile.

Aside from that, the course is the same for everyone so arguing that it's not fair is kind of silly IMHO

- DSK

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Even if the windward mark was out by 5 to 10 degrees that would make the run a one pole leg under spinnaker e.g. no passing lanes.

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1 hour ago, trt131 said:

Even if the windward mark was out by 5 to 10 degrees that would make the run a one pole leg under spinnaker e.g. no passing lanes.

still better than a triangle course..   but that was another thread...

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9 hours ago, trt131 said:

Even if the windward mark was out by 5 to 10 degrees that would make the run a one pole leg under spinnaker e.g. no passing lanes.

??

The wind doesn't shift where you sail?

I'm sure there are some classes where that would be true but the worst ones I've sailed in that regard are sprit boats. They really don't like a deep reach. Most conventional boats don't even notice 5 degrees, and 10 degrees would mean a slight difference that would make the gust/lull sequence more important

FB- Doug

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