billy backstay

So called "wicking" polyester shirts??

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I must be a freak??  I have always found these shirts to hold the moisture to my torso, to be hot and clammy, as opposed to cotton, which evaporates the moisture from their exterior....??

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They don’t work if they’re salted wet. Try merino wool. 

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Have u tried shaving?

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Polyester shirts only make you sweat and don't do any wicking.  The stuff to get is polypropylene.  Merino works even better but you will pay accordingly.  Helly Hansen sells a pretty decent range of polypropylene stuff.

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As a natural fiber, renewable resource, and as a shirt material I've never found anything better than merino for my money. Expensive but worth it in my opinion

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A big YMMV. I have a few and they are not the same at all. Some feel real nice and some feel like saran wrap. One of the big advantages of the "tech" shirts is they dry quite fast for situations where you are in and out of the water or otherwise getting wet. I have some ancient rayon Hawaiian shirts that do this too - they were the original tech fabric I guess B)

I will say I love a nice cotton shirt, but offshore they get more and more salt soaked and thus less and less comfortable. Cotton shirts are a lot harder to wash and dry offshore than a synthetic fabric shirt.

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9 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

You don’t have to be a pothead to realize how great hemp clothing is at wicking moisture and breathability. Plus, it looks good, feels good and lasts for years.

https://www.tentree.com/collections/hemp-clothing

F5374CDB-1FE1-49E6-913B-9F04D71C7054.jpeg

 

 

Interesting, but quite pricey, as you say!!  I usually get cotton, or blend Ralph Lauren Polos for 20 bucks at the clearance racks at Marshall's or TJ Maxx.  Recently discovered Waterproof Vintage slacks, which have a little stretchiness compared to 100% cotton denim, and they fit my skinny ass and legs perfect, so got a couple more....

 

image.thumb.png.e462905adee272da0a50673cd7f96415.png

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I’ve had some hemp clothes since  the mid 90’s that still look new. It doesn’t wear out like cotton so the price is actually quite low compared with its longevity.

Plus, it doesn’t lose its moisture wicking ability if a dryer sheet is added to the load, unlike poly clothes...:wacko:

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27 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I’ve had some hemp clothes since  the mid 90’s that still look new. It doesn’t wear out like cotton so the price is actually quite low compared with its longevity.

Plus, it doesn’t lose its moisture wicking ability if a dryer sheet is added to the load, unlike poly clothes...:wacko:

Rant on: I have cotton shirts from the 1980s my son wears now! Any cotton T-shirt I have bought in the last 10 years wears out quickly. I seem to get maybe 2 good years out of them and then they move to the oil-changing and dirty job clothes drawer :angry:

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28 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Rant on: I have cotton shirts from the 1980s my son wears now! Any cotton T-shirt I have bought in the last 10 years wears out quickly. I seem to get maybe 2 good years out of them and then they move to the oil-changing and dirty job clothes drawer :angry:

You'll get what you pay for... doesn't work with t-shirts. But if you pay pennies you'll get shit. If  you pay a lot, you might still get shit, but from reputable brand.

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9 minutes ago, Upp3 said:

You'll get what you pay for... doesn't work with t-shirts. But if you pay pennies you'll get shit. If  you pay a lot, you might still get shit, but from reputable brand.

Have a couple of t-shirts from late 90s still good. Some Australian company. If tech - if you are sweating a lot the shirt will just speed it up to your nether regions. For that I prefer cotton and swapping them out. For sailing I now like the tech stuff as it dries fast. 

Texas just legalized hemp, will be interesting to see how that goes.  Making Wm R Hearst spin in his grave.

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2 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

Have a couple of t-shirts from late 90s still good. Some Australian company. If tech - if you are sweating a lot the shirt will just speed it up to your nether regions. For that I prefer cotton and swapping them out. For sailing I now like the tech stuff as it dries fast. 

I have a hunch we sail in a bit different  weather. I've switched away from cotton as it doesn't wick or keep you warm if wet. 

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

You don’t have to be a pothead to realize how great hemp clothing is at wicking moisture and breathability. Plus, it looks good, feels good and lasts for years.

https://www.tentree.com/collections/hemp-clothing

F5374CDB-1FE1-49E6-913B-9F04D71C7054.jpeg

2r09dm-l-610x610-swimwear-weed+bikini-bi

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38 minutes ago, Upp3 said:

I have a hunch we sail in a bit different  weather. I've switched away from cotton as it doesn't wick or keep you warm if wet. 

Sorry, to clarify - sailing in tech, working in cotton swapping shirts if they get soaked.  The last thing i did was convert to tech undies.  Cuts down on the crotch rot feeling.  And mostly Galveston Bay so warm even in winter. Really warm in summer.

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No luck with shirts but have 98% switched to "ballistic nylon" shorts and pants. The seriously tactical wear like Propper is heavy but there are lighter brands like SOG, without all the pockets, that dries all but instantly.

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a huge advantage of wool is it doesn't get stinky - you can wear it for days and days...

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Swear by Eddie Bauer revolution shirts. 20% uv Moisture wicking etc.  18-21 bucks, if you get lucky on the sale rack you can get them for under $10.  Have like 5 of the short sleeves, they are cut right and I have had most of them for more than 4 years and they all have held up really really well.  The long sleeves and more $$ stuff works well too. 

Best I have found(haven't tried drifit yet). 

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Icebreaker brand merino has some sales that make it almost affordable. 

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I've used bamboo shirts for hunting for quite a while. They dont get stinky at all. I went on a backcountry hunt for 2 weeks and only had 3 base layer shirts, all bamboo, and they did really well. Bamboo or merino are probably the best choices.

 

 

Also, what's that about dryer sheets and shirts not wicking???

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the cheaper polyester ones work well for me, i wear the loose fitting ones. The best Nike dry-fit stuff is all polyester iirc. I dont think i have any of the polypropylene stuff. I would think loose fitting vs tight fit and the climate type would matter a lot.

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7 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Icebreaker brand merino has some sales that make it almost affordable. 

Yeah, Icebreaker is a great brand, but inexpensive... no. Affordable, yes, if you stretch out the ROI.

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26 minutes ago, Pokey uh da LBC said:

Yeah, Icebreaker is a great brand, but inexpensive... no. Affordable, yes, if you stretch out the ROI.

This, I have icebreaker gear that’s well over 5 years old and is still in great condition. 

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tech shirt vs cotton shirt...   as much as i sweat in the texas heat, i find that the tech shirt will dry out faster as i am wearing it vs the cotton where it'll be soaked all day... the tech shirts are lighter in weight, and i like the spf factor as well...   a wet cotton shirt will have an spf <10..

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Tech definitely.  Sort of surprised me based on what I thought about polyester vs natural fibers.  But when getting back into cycling, there's no question the tech stuff is the way to go.  Bought some cheapy tech t-shirts to wear under jerseys when I need to add a layer.  Those t-shirts also work well for sailing, took a few of them to the Caribbean last year, dry more quickly, can be rinsed out and dried easily.  

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Big brands around here for fishermen/sailors are Pelagic and Colombia. Both are carried by West Marine.  Pelagic is a local company.  They have big parking lot sales  which I always hit up & save about 40%. Their tech shirts are pricey but super light, great UV protection and are very well made.  I’m hard on gear but,  along with Under Armor tech tees, nothing else seems to last.  

Colombia’s long sleeves are super light and effective but they have that loose fit which lead to inevitable catches and rips.  However,  in high heat they are the go-to shirt for me. Great fiber and breathing panels.

https://pelagicgear.com/

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Speaking of tech - I snagged shirts from Mark last year - his 5 for $40 deal, random boat shirts so I wear them at random places and times. Have really enjoyed them in all kinds of weather - I enjoy them more as not worried about screwing up an expensive crew shirt. 

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20 hours ago, ordkhntr said:

 

Also, what's that about dryer sheets and shirts not wicking???

Something about it blocking the micro pores that transfer moisture away from the body. Time for me to google search it to be sure.

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Here's the other side of this coin. Back in the day I did a fair amount of high elevation mountaineering. Above base camp, we'd wear plastic, non-breathing socks as a first layer. The idea was  that wicking and evaporation are exothermic. As sweat evaporates, it cools the skin. Plastic socks prevented all evaporation, keeping your feet a little warmer. Not sure if this idea has been debunked in the years since, but it was a credible technique back in the early '90s.

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On 2/6/2020 at 7:35 AM, ROADKILL666 said:

Can’t stand them give me good old cotton any day

cotton is a death fabric on the sea....

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31 minutes ago, dacapo said:

cotton is a death fabric on the sea....

When i started a sailing club in college i told my new recruits "wool is warm, cotton kills." Answer was "but i dont have any wool." How about fleece? I'd ask. "Yeah sweatshirts"

Haha

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49 minutes ago, Pokey uh da LBC said:

Here's the other side of this coin. Back in the day I did a fair amount of high elevation mountaineering. Above base camp, we'd wear plastic, non-breathing socks as a first layer. The idea was  that wicking and evaporation are exothermic. As sweat evaporates, it cools the skin. Plastic socks prevented all evaporation, keeping your feet a little warmer. Not sure if this idea has been debunked in the years since, but it was a credible technique back in the early '90s.

That works if you remember to change socks at every opportunity and hang them out - otherwise it is a recipe for trench foot.

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In a fit of gullible enthusiasm I got Mr Clew a number of wicking Under Armor shirts for running wear. Despite machine washing the armpits developed a permanent reek. 

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10 hours ago, d'ranger said:

Speaking of tech - I snagged shirts from Mark last year - his 5 for $40 deal, random boat shirts so I wear them at random places and times. Have really enjoyed them in all kinds of weather - I enjoy them more as not worried about screwing up an expensive crew shirt. 

you say random one more time and all hell will break loose

 

and i don't even want to get into cotton boxers,  never again..

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I don't know what the difference is because they're all "polyester," but...

My old Patagonia Capilene and similar is still great after decades of heavy use.  But I also have cheap polyester T-shirts from bike events, etc., that are sweaty and stinky. 

Sport Wash, etc., will get rid of the stink.

Everybody agrees that merino is great.  I prefer it too, but it's expensive, needs some care, and wears out.

 

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Polyester comes in many shapes and forms.  How breathable it feels and how well it wicks depends on yarn denier, tenacity/brightness, type of knit/weave etc etc.

The best polyester yarns for wicking are spun in a 'plus' shape, so the water follows the resulting channels in the yarn away from the water source.  This is how Coolmax yarns were shaped (not sure that fiber is still made, but at the factory i work in they used to spin yarn like this several years ago)

There are also new types of finishing chemicals applied via padder and dried in a stenter that can drastically help wicking ability.  These are cheaper than specialized yarns, are pretty durable, but do wear off after a number of machine wash cycles.

IMHO you cant beat good yarn, it doesn't wear out with washes, but it is more expensive.

Suppose someday ill break down and buy some merino stuff though.  :)

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Try soaking polyester shirts in a bucket of water with a diaper cleaner.  It really works.

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Bamboo undies and an old pair of bamboo Harken shorts are my favourite. Hard wearing as well. 

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On 2/7/2020 at 3:27 PM, NeedAClew said:

In a fit of gullible enthusiasm I got Mr Clew a number of wicking Under Armor shirts for running wear. Despite machine washing the armpits developed a permanent reek. 

Various sport washes helped but never fully did the job. At the time, Penguin Sports wash was the best I found.

In the end, I just reverted to cotton t-shirts.  Despite the UV protection they're not supposed to not have, I never burn under the shirts and am many shades lighter than my SPF 50+ coated arms and legs.  This is in NYC area sun and temps.

 

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Mark M should be able to chime in here, right?

Wouldn't be a violation of TOS.

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18 hours ago, Windward said:

Mark M should be able to chime in here, right?

Wouldn't be a violation of TOS.

True, the king of wicking fabrics and technology's valued input would be helpful to settle this bit. He's always been straight up about the varied advantages/disadvantages. All fabrics have their time and place in spite of the claims of universal applicability that their marketing departments promote. Conditions we experience vary so widely that one fabric simply couldn't do it all.

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On 2/7/2020 at 10:57 PM, dacapo said:

cotton is a death fabric on the sea....

Can't agree with this enough. If you are going offshore do not have cotton on your body. It draws away body warmth, which is why it is so good on a tropical island but that is the last thing you want when the temp falls. Also is lousy at keeping shape when wet. Wool is good as well as many high tech wool and synthetic blends. Better to be a bit hot and sweaty than loosing body temp.

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On 2/11/2020 at 6:01 AM, redboat said:

True, the king of wicking fabrics and technology's valued input would be helpful to settle this bit. He's always been straight up about the varied advantages/disadvantages. All fabrics have their time and place in spite of the claims of universal applicability that their marketing departments promote. Conditions we experience vary so widely that one fabric simply couldn't do it all.

This thread deserves a comprehensive reply.  I would like to provide that reply but it will take a real block of time that right now I just don't have due to a dramatic uptick in business (January was our best month ever in 16 years and February is looking equally crazy busy.) It is President's Day weekend and I'll be working all three days to help keep up (Not complaining).  I will try to reply over the next few days. Thank you for your request for some data and your patience with my reply.

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1 hour ago, DryArmour said:

I will try to reply over the next few days. Thank you for your request for some data and your patience with my reply.

Take your time Mark, I am naked most of the time anyway...

But please consider the wicking properties and the importance of it, for both cold and hot weather.

And please also explain a bit about UV properties, been meaning to ask you for a while.

Thanks, it would be cool if you would!

 

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6 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Take your time Mark, I am naked most of the time anyway...

But please consider the wicking properties and the importance of it, for both cold and hot weather.

And please also explain a bit about UV properties, been meaning to ask you for a while.

Thanks, it would be cool if you would!

 

I will cover both of those topics. If you need more specificity thank my reply provides. Just ask and I will try and answer any questions.

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8 minutes ago, DryArmour said:

I will cover both of those topics. If you need more specificity thank my reply provides. Just ask and I will try and answer any questions.

Whoa... someone who thinks about what they are going to post here before actually posting it.

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1 hour ago, Varan said:

Whoa... someone who thinks about what they are going to post here before actually posting it.

Crazy right? LOL ;-)

 

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On 2/5/2020 at 7:02 PM, billy backstay said:

I must be a freak??  I have always found these shirts to hold the moisture to my torso, to be hot and clammy, as opposed to cotton, which evaporates the moisture from their exterior....??

It think the fundamental (NPI) issue is that there is a big difference between trying to say warm and trying to keep cool. When you are trying to keep cool you want to be "wet". You want that water evaporating but still transmitting the cooling of that evaporation to your body.  Few things do that better than white cotton.  However when trying to keep warm you want the synthetics which wick the sweat away from the skin so it can evaporate in the outer layers. 

  

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3 hours ago, Mark K said:

It think the fundamental (NPI) issue is that there is a big difference between trying to say warm and trying to keep cool. When you are trying to keep cool you want to be "wet". You want that water evaporating but still transmitting the cooling of that evaporation to your body.  Few things do that better than white cotton.  However when trying to keep warm you want the synthetics which wick the sweat away from the skin so it can evaporate in the outer layers. 

  

I have lived in some very cold climates. Born in Boston, MA. Lived in Switzerland. Hiked the Alps in the fall with my Dad. But I think the coldest I have ever been was when I paddled out at Sunset Beach, HI for the first time in a rashguard. 80 degree water an 68'F very breezy trade winds in late November. Oh Mercy was that cold. Working as a lifeguard in Waikiki, nothing was more of a bummer then getting your cotton HILSA guard cotton tee shirt wet in a morning Trade Wind shower, hanging it in the tower to dry and by 3PM it was still damp. That sucked. It didn't help a lot to wear it to try and dry it either because it was so damn cold when the trade winds blow over water in the shirt heated to 98'6'F body temperature. This is where the water repellent and breathable HILSA DRYSHIRT came from.
 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Pokey uh da LBC said:

Mark, you must be awfully busy elsewhere. I expected you to get in on this thread months ago. Well, at least a week ago.

Absolutely swamped with custom corporate, team and event apparel orders. Wrote some on the article yesterday, will try to write more today and post asap.  I am sure there will be follow up questions, so I see this as a living document that will morph over time.

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16 hours ago, DryArmour said:

I have lived in some very cold climates. Born in Boston, MA. Lived in Switzerland. Hiked the Alps in the fall with my Dad. But I think the coldest I have ever been was when I paddled out at Sunset Beach, HI for the first time in a rashguard. 80 degree water an 68'F very breezy trade winds in late November. Oh Mercy was that cold. Working as a lifeguard in Waikiki, nothing was more of a bummer then getting your cotton HILSA guard cotton tee shirt wet in a morning Trade Wind shower, hanging it in the tower to dry and by 3PM it was still damp. That sucked. It didn't help a lot to wear it to try and dry it either because it was so damn cold when the trade winds blow over water in the shirt heated to 98'6'F body temperature. This is where the water repellent and breathable HILSA DRYSHIRT came from.
 

 

 

how's that work from the inside?

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6 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

how's that work from the inside?

Water vapor molecules are smaller than water droplets so they easily make their way out through the material. The same way Goretex works.

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I sweat a lot and a cotton shirt is never cooler for me than tech fabrics.I think everyone is a little different in what sort of tech fabric works for them. You need to experiment a little with fabric weight and fit. It seems like the fabrics with more of a shiny finish tend to be better for me when it is hot. 

I'm an auto mechanic in the southeast USA (hot and humid!) and I wear ankle length compression pants under my work uniforms all year. Any sweat gets distributed more evenly and I am cooler despite the extra layer. 

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2 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

I sweat a lot and a cotton shirt is never cooler for me than tech fabrics.I think everyone is a little different in what sort of tech fabric works for them. You need to experiment a little with fabric weight and fit. It seems like the fabrics with more of a shiny finish tend to be better for me when it is hot. 

I'm an auto mechanic in the southeast USA (hot and humid!) and I wear ankle length compression pants under my work uniforms all year. Any sweat gets distributed more evenly and I am cooler despite the extra layer. 

I completely agreed with wearing a wicking layer as long as there is air circulation.  Definitely better than just getting "wet" wearing cotton fabrics.

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From the mythical Front Page...Those “Technical Shirts”

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There are vast differences in the quality and value of today’s technical shirts. To really understand the differences, let’s start at the filament level. These are the fibers that make up the threads that are loomed into fabric. Polyester is by nature a moderately durable hydrophobic material. Hydrophobic material does not want to absorb water. It also means that if it is snagged or abraded vigorously, there is a pretty good chance the fibers are going to pill and deteriorate. There are many other options when it comes to wicking fabrics. Nylon is far more durable and is a hydrophilic. Hydrophilic fabrics drink water and give a you much drier feel even if there is more water in the fibers. The main problem with premium Nylon is that it is more than twice the price of polyester and many consumers simply don’t think it is worth the cost increase.

Bamboo fabrics have some great advantages, especially if you are in the military or firefighting business. Bamboo when properly manufactured can give you a great, soft feel while removing the issue for forward deployment troops where flash explosions can melt Polyester and Nylon to your skin. Obviously, this is a major consideration for those who may be exposed to flames. The downside is that properly manufactured bamboo is expensive and cannot be decorated with dye sublimation and must be screen printed or embroidered.

Merino Wool is another popular material for those who want a wicking fabric that naturally fights off microbe infestation which is the usual cause of bad odors in apparel. In moderate to cool environments, wool is indeed a great way to go. Polypropylene fabrics have similar wicking and insulation properties like wool, but often develops unpleasant odors rather quickly unless they have been infused with silver nanoparticles which are very helpful at killing odor. Opinions vary, but in my experience the silver washes out pretty quickly regardless of the type of fabric they have been attached to.

Material weight also plays into the breathability and often the UPF sun protection rating for fabrics. The lighter polyester fabrics (3.5-3.8oz) are fantastic at keeping you cool and somewhat protected from the sun depending on the weave in the fabric. Beginning at around 4.0oz you can get a great shirt fabric that has achieved the full UPF 50 “Excellent” rating from Solar Labs. There are a lot of products out on the market today that claim UPF ratings but have never actually been tested. Worse, there are companies touting “SPF” ratings for their sun protection apparel. Fabrics are NEVER* rated in terms of “SPF” which is strictly reserved for applied lotions and topical treatments like zinc oxide. Until now, most UPF 50 products were relatively expensive but we just came out with a UPF 50 certified shirt in short and
long sleeve that is debuting at under $12ea for small through X-Large. XXL-4XL also available for a bit more money.

Venting adds to breathability. Whether you strategically place a
highly breathable material in the armpit area and down the side of the shirt or you add a zipper to the front, a mix of fabrics and mechanical vents will assist in the maintaining sun protection while not encumbering the breathability factor.  No matter how breathable or how sophisticated a shirt design may be, if the relative humidity is 80%+ and it is a warm/hot day, the sweat is going to have a near impossible job evaporating off the outside of the garment. Have realistic expectations of your apparel based on the atmosphere’s ability to absorb any more moisture.

Microfibre versus Macro Pique.  Several people have noted that some of the tech fabrics feel like “Saran-Wrap” stuck their skin in hot and very humid conditions. There is s solution to this which I don’t love in salt water environments but several of our customers swear by them. The “
Macro Waffle Pique” fabrics are a box weave with what appear to be dimples in the fabric. This provides fewer contact points with your skin. In fresh water this is awesome but in high salinity areas like Florida, this make my skin itchy.  It really is a case of personal preference.

Layering to improve moisture transport. In today’s sophisticated textile market, you can achieve some fantastic results if you combine the right fabrics in the right order in a layered system. Having a light weight, moisture wicking fabric (Under 4.oz) as your base layer will help mechanically and chemically wick away sweat from your body and move it to the mid-layer where it can be moved to the outside of the mid-layer and return to vapor form on the outside of the mid-layer. A semi porous fabric like Gore-Tex or similar (Patent expired) takes that sweat to it final exit port through the jacket and allow you to stay mostly dry on and off watch. With the full line of Helly Hansen, Gill and Zhik at our disposal we can create a complete foul weather gear system to keep your crew comfortable head to toe. E-MAIL us at info@dryshirt.com or call TOLL FREE 1 (888) 379-7447 ext 2 to get your customized apparel quote for your team.

image.png

Decoration- If you are trying to produce quality team or event gear then the decoration system you choose may dramatically reduce the performance properties of your gear. Using a standard plastisol screen print ink covering large areas of the material will render the previously moisture wicking material about as breathable as a trash bag (Not at all). End users often report this feels like a big “sweaty patch” wherever the ink is placed. For darker fabrics made with synthetic fibers like Nylon and Polyester, the material requires two things that many decorators do not use because they are fairly expensive. #1 -Polyester inks that resist dye migration from the fabric and #2 A white flash base under the print to help seal off any rogue dyes that may try to permeate the screen print ink.

You can solve this problem with a process called dye sublimation. This literally uses inks on paper to transfer your design into the fabric with high heat and pressure from a dye sublimation press. This provides bright, long lasting graphics but leaves the fabric completely breathable. Absolutely ideal but there is a catch. Dye sublimation inks interact with polyester fabrics the best. Polyester blends with no more than 9% Spandex™ (Or Elastane) also dye sublimate well. Nylon and Rayon can be dye sublimated, but the print will fade over time. Polyester/cotton blend shirt prints also wash out given enough time.

The other potential problem is that dye sublimation inks are as the name implies a “dye”. This means that you cannot print a color onto the shirts that is lighter than the fabric color itself. This makes white or titanium fabric colors the best for spot printing shirts with the desired logos. We have had a lot of luck with other color fabrics but only when the graphic design is quite a bit darker than the fabric color like a black graphic on a yellow or light green or light blue shirt.

Solving the need for dye sublimation prints on dark color shirts. Our factory has invested heavily into the business of all over dye sublimated technical apparel. This requires a large roll press and a high-end dye sublimation printer. It also requires the ability to engineer the desired graphics that are capable of crossing the natural seam lines. No easy task over a large variation of shirt sizes. This system of decoration is known as flood sublimation. Dye sublimation inks are expensive, so all over prints get a bit more pricey than traditional spot prints but the net result Is a dynamic graphic in a shirt that remains 100% breathable and can be any color you desire. Dye sublimation also has no limitation on the number of colors in your design and the number of colors does not affect the price unlike screen printing where every color requires another screen and film set. That can get pricey for small runs (Under 24 pieces) with 3+ colors in the design.


Embroidery is also a great way to give your apparel a clean, professional look. The weight of the fabric should be at least 4.5oz. If it is lighter than that the material will “scrunch” around the embroidery once it has been washed and dried. The cost of embroidery typically comes down to how many stitches or in the design. Larger logos can get quite expensive to embroider and they also create a less breathable spot that some other types of decoration.

image.png

DTG RULES on natural fibers…The latest in high resolution prints on cotton or other natural fabric shirts is Direct To Garment (DTG) printing.  We just did a set for the amazing “SHOCKWAVE” team now racing the Caribbean circuit and the print registration was ridiculous. The smallest details came out in a way screen printing could never have achieved. Pricey. Worth it.                          

DTG PRINTING. The picture does NOT do the final output justice.

                               

No matter what your budget, we can help keep your team comfortable and performing better in a wide variety of conditions. Call us toll free (1-888-379-7447 ext 2) or email us to get some fresh ideas on getting your team or event a new look in 2020.

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, DryArmour said:

Bamboo fabrics have some great advantages, especially if you are in the military or firefighting business. Bamboo when properly manufactured can give you a great, soft feel while removing the issue for forward deployment troops where flash explosions can melt Polyester and Nylon to your skin. Obviously, this is a major consideration for those who may be exposed to flames. The downside is that properly manufactured bamboo is expensive and cannot be decorated with dye sublimation and must be screen printed or embroidered.

Afaik the bamboo is used solely because it grows fast and thus is cheap. Rayon is rayon and Viscose viscose regardless of the source for cellulose.

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3 hours ago, Upp3 said:

Afaik the bamboo is used solely because it grows fast and thus is cheap. Rayon is rayon and Viscose viscose regardless of the source for cellulose.

USA suppliers of bamboo fabric are relatively expensive compared to other fabrics like polyester.

 

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4 hours ago, Upp3 said:

Afaik the bamboo is used solely because it grows fast and thus is cheap. Rayon is rayon and Viscose viscose regardless of the source for cellulose.

in Volendam, the Netherlands a lot of young people got caught in a fire at a new years party a couple of years ago... a lot of them wore polyester clothing and the hospitals had big problems separating the polyester from the skin...

 

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Bamboo is a great jacketing and shirting, but it's way too rigid for use in sailing clothing.

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1 hour ago, doghouse said:

Bamboo is a great jacketing and shirting, but it's way too rigid for use in sailing clothing.

It’s pretty good for bike frames too.........

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14 hours ago, daan62 said:

in Volendam, the Netherlands a lot of young people got caught in a fire at a new years party a couple of years ago... a lot of them wore polyester clothing and the hospitals had big problems separating the polyester from the skin...

 

But viscose or rayon is not polyester.

"Polyester is a synthetic polymer made of purified terephthalic acid (PTA) or its dimethyl ester dimethyl terephthalate (DMT) and monoethylene glycol (MEG)."

"Viscose is a type of rayon fiber that is made from natural sources such as wood and agricultural products that are regenerated as cellulose fiber. The molecular structure of natural cellulose is preserved in the process."

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15 hours ago, DryArmour said:

USA suppliers of bamboo fabric are relatively expensive compared to other fabrics like polyester.

 

I've wore bamboo for years hunting. There are a couple companies that do it well. Badlands makes a couple different weights. I wore the same shirt for 4 or 5 days of hard backcountry hunting and the stuff doesn't stink. Like you said, its really pricey. I've only wore it sailing when I am layering up in the cold. 

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6 hours ago, Upp3 said:

But viscose or rayon is not polyester.

"Polyester is a synthetic polymer made of purified terephthalic acid (PTA) or its dimethyl ester dimethyl terephthalate (DMT) and monoethylene glycol (MEG)."

"Viscose is a type of rayon fiber that is made from natural sources such as wood and agricultural products that are regenerated as cellulose fiber. The molecular structure of natural cellulose is preserved in the process."

 

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So if I eat at a crappy restaurant and drink too much alcohol should I wear bamboo underwear if my ass is on fire from the food?

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On 2/17/2020 at 8:21 AM, DryArmour said:



From the mythical Front Page...Those “Technical Shirts”

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There are vast differences in the quality and value of today’s technical shirts. To really understand the differences, let’s start at the filament level. These are the fibers that make up the threads that are loomed into fabric. Polyester is by nature a moderately durable hydrophobic material. Hydrophobic material does not want to absorb water. It also means that if it is snagged or abraded vigorously, there is a pretty good chance the fibers are going to pill and deteriorate. There are many other options when it comes to wicking fabrics. Nylon is far more durable and is a hydrophilic. Hydrophilic fabrics drink water and give a you much drier feel even if there is more water in the fibers. The main problem with premium Nylon is that it is more than twice the price of polyester and many consumers simply don’t think it is worth the cost increase.

Bamboo fabrics have some great advantages, especially if you are in the military or firefighting business. Bamboo when properly manufactured can give you a great, soft feel while removing the issue for forward deployment troops where flash explosions can melt Polyester and Nylon to your skin. Obviously, this is a major consideration for those who may be exposed to flames. The downside is that properly manufactured bamboo is expensive and cannot be decorated with dye sublimation and must be screen printed or embroidered.

Merino Wool is another popular material for those who want a wicking fabric that naturally fights off microbe infestation which is the usual cause of bad odors in apparel. In moderate to cool environments, wool is indeed a great way to go. Polypropylene fabrics have similar wicking and insulation properties like wool, but often develops unpleasant odors rather quickly unless they have been infused with silver nanoparticles which are very helpful at killing odor. Opinions vary, but in my experience the silver washes out pretty quickly regardless of the type of fabric they have been attached to.

Material weight also plays into the breathability and often the UPF sun protection rating for fabrics. The lighter polyester fabrics (3.5-3.8oz) are fantastic at keeping you cool and somewhat protected from the sun depending on the weave in the fabric. Beginning at around 4.0oz you can get a great shirt fabric that has achieved the full UPF 50 “Excellent” rating from Solar Labs. There are a lot of products out on the market today that claim UPF ratings but have never actually been tested. Worse, there are companies touting “SPF” ratings for their sun protection apparel. Fabrics are NEVER* rated in terms of “SPF” which is strictly reserved for applied lotions and topical treatments like zinc oxide. Until now, most UPF 50 products were relatively expensive but we just came out with a UPF 50 certified shirt in short and
long sleeve that is debuting at under $12ea for small through X-Large. XXL-4XL also available for a bit more money.

Venting adds to breathability. Whether you strategically place a
highly breathable material in the armpit area and down the side of the shirt or you add a zipper to the front, a mix of fabrics and mechanical vents will assist in the maintaining sun protection while not encumbering the breathability factor.  No matter how breathable or how sophisticated a shirt design may be, if the relative humidity is 80%+ and it is a warm/hot day, the sweat is going to have a near impossible job evaporating off the outside of the garment. Have realistic expectations of your apparel based on the atmosphere’s ability to absorb any more moisture.

Microfibre versus Macro Pique.  Several people have noted that some of the tech fabrics feel like “Saran-Wrap” stuck their skin in hot and very humid conditions. There is s solution to this which I don’t love in salt water environments but several of our customers swear by them. The “
Macro Waffle Pique” fabrics are a box weave with what appear to be dimples in the fabric. This provides fewer contact points with your skin. In fresh water this is awesome but in high salinity areas like Florida, this make my skin itchy.  It really is a case of personal preference.

Layering to improve moisture transport. In today’s sophisticated textile market, you can achieve some fantastic results if you combine the right fabrics in the right order in a layered system. Having a light weight, moisture wicking fabric (Under 4.oz) as your base layer will help mechanically and chemically wick away sweat from your body and move it to the mid-layer where it can be moved to the outside of the mid-layer and return to vapor form on the outside of the mid-layer. A semi porous fabric like Gore-Tex or similar (Patent expired) takes that sweat to it final exit port through the jacket and allow you to stay mostly dry on and off watch. With the full line of Helly Hansen, Gill and Zhik at our disposal we can create a complete foul weather gear system to keep your crew comfortable head to toe. E-MAIL us at info@dryshirt.com or call TOLL FREE 1 (888) 379-7447 ext 2 to get your customized apparel quote for your team.

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Decoration- If you are trying to produce quality team or event gear then the decoration system you choose may dramatically reduce the performance properties of your gear. Using a standard plastisol screen print ink covering large areas of the material will render the previously moisture wicking material about as breathable as a trash bag (Not at all). End users often report this feels like a big “sweaty patch” wherever the ink is placed. For darker fabrics made with synthetic fibers like Nylon and Polyester, the material requires two things that many decorators do not use because they are fairly expensive. #1 -Polyester inks that resist dye migration from the fabric and #2 A white flash base under the print to help seal off any rogue dyes that may try to permeate the screen print ink.

You can solve this problem with a process called dye sublimation. This literally uses inks on paper to transfer your design into the fabric with high heat and pressure from a dye sublimation press. This provides bright, long lasting graphics but leaves the fabric completely breathable. Absolutely ideal but there is a catch. Dye sublimation inks interact with polyester fabrics the best. Polyester blends with no more than 9% Spandex™ (Or Elastane) also dye sublimate well. Nylon and Rayon can be dye sublimated, but the print will fade over time. Polyester/cotton blend shirt prints also wash out given enough time.

The other potential problem is that dye sublimation inks are as the name implies a “dye”. This means that you cannot print a color onto the shirts that is lighter than the fabric color itself. This makes white or titanium fabric colors the best for spot printing shirts with the desired logos. We have had a lot of luck with other color fabrics but only when the graphic design is quite a bit darker than the fabric color like a black graphic on a yellow or light green or light blue shirt.

Solving the need for dye sublimation prints on dark color shirts. Our factory has invested heavily into the business of all over dye sublimated technical apparel. This requires a large roll press and a high-end dye sublimation printer. It also requires the ability to engineer the desired graphics that are capable of crossing the natural seam lines. No easy task over a large variation of shirt sizes. This system of decoration is known as flood sublimation. Dye sublimation inks are expensive, so all over prints get a bit more pricey than traditional spot prints but the net result Is a dynamic graphic in a shirt that remains 100% breathable and can be any color you desire. Dye sublimation also has no limitation on the number of colors in your design and the number of colors does not affect the price unlike screen printing where every color requires another screen and film set. That can get pricey for small runs (Under 24 pieces) with 3+ colors in the design.


Embroidery is also a great way to give your apparel a clean, professional look. The weight of the fabric should be at least 4.5oz. If it is lighter than that the material will “scrunch” around the embroidery once it has been washed and dried. The cost of embroidery typically comes down to how many stitches or in the design. Larger logos can get quite expensive to embroider and they also create a less breathable spot that some other types of decoration.

image.png

DTG RULES on natural fibers…The latest in high resolution prints on cotton or other natural fabric shirts is Direct To Garment (DTG) printing.  We just did a set for the amazing “SHOCKWAVE” team now racing the Caribbean circuit and the print registration was ridiculous. The smallest details came out in a way screen printing could never have achieved. Pricey. Worth it.                          

                               

No matter what your budget, we can help keep your team comfortable and performing better in a wide variety of conditions. Call us toll free (1-888-379-7447 ext 2) or email us to get some fresh ideas on getting your team or event a new look in 2020.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for writing this . It is a very nice summary.

I do have one piece of feedback and a question.

Regarding wool versus polypropylene, I have very long experience with both (honestly, most people have NEVER worn wool---which is why so few people understand why it is superior). I do not find the properties of wool and polypro at all similar. In fact they are as different as you can get.
Wool: absorbent--but INSIDE the fibers, not BETWEEN the firbrils. Wool is dry to the touch even when multiples of its own weight. Wool is hydrophilic. The "wicking" of wool is actually an internal absorption and migration process. "Wicking" in polypropylene ONLY occurs with new, perfect clean microfibre. Old fashione polypro, diurty polypro, worn out crappy polypro, mashed polypro, heat damaged polypro does not wick.

I used to race bicycles and boats. Both. In all weather. I had my fair share of polypropylene jerseys. But to this day I prefer wool. My team jersey was wool in the early 80s. I still have some of them. The differences are important. Polypropylene absorbs nearly zero moisture. You ALWAYS have a layer of wet sweat all over your skin inside the jersey. In a wool jersey that is instantly sucked up and moved off your skin.

Wool is superior in HOT weather, not just cool! In the heat, the poplypro feels like a saran wrapping. Unlike cotton which gets wet between fibrils and then geives you a wet bulb cooling, the polypropylene sits there insulating your. It is insufferable in heat. Wool on the other hand is superb. You are not left with a wet layer, but you are also getting cooled! When it is hot in the summer, your wool will supersaturate and cool you wet-bulb style just like cotton--but without being clammy. Polypro does not do this anywhere to that same extent. It can't.

The smelliness of plastic fibres is unstoppable. It is a fundamental problam of their being both polymer (with molecular porosity) along with hydrophobia. You cannot solve the problem. Actually you can: wear wool.

I wear wool socks YEAR ROUND.  They are far more comfortable and healthy in the summer. People get so confused about wool. "Isn't it hot.?"  WELL I DIDN"T SAY PUT ON A FISHERMAN'S SWEATER AND RAGG WOOL SOCKS!!!!  The thickness and knit determines the insulating value--not the fibre. Well on the second order it does. Cotton has a higher heat transver rate than wool but that is minor compared to other features. Cotton is cold because it does not loft well, does not maintain loft well, and due to its interfibril capillary absorption ("wicking" but hydrophilic) it destroys its insulating value in humid conditions. Wool does not. Polypro does not. In ummer sock usage, cotton cuts off all airflow due to interfibril swelling. Wool swells internally and so the spaces between the wool maintain air circulation. This prevents many problems including fungus and chafing.

So the question: how or what makes wool and polypro similar in wicking?

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i sail and cycle in very hot and VERY humid conditions and i always wear polyester or polypro and i have never had this 'wet' or 'saran wrap' problem some of you are mentioning (except with silk-screen printed shirts, which are terrible). It seems to wick very well and i always feel dry. I've never tried wool, i always wore cotton before dry-fit was a thing. Maybe the huge improvement over cotton makes me happy with the poly and i dont know what im missing with wool, but that stuff is hard to find.

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Modern poly cycling clothing is so far superior to wool in every facet it isn't even funny.

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Completely different environments. Cycling/technical thermals/sport wear made out of synthetics works great in inside out drying conditions (e.g. sweat —> fabric —> atmosphere). 
 

They don’t work when there’s salt spray - not enough thermal drying energy to evaporate when there’s salt. 
 

There is no such thing as the perfect in all circumstances garment - but at least get the differing operational conditions right. 

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13 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Completely different environments. Cycling/technical thermals/sport wear made out of synthetics works great in inside out drying conditions (e.g. sweat —> fabric —> atmosphere). 
 

They don’t work when there’s salt spray - not enough thermal drying energy to evaporate when there’s salt. 
 

There is no such thing as the perfect in all circumstances garment - but at least get the differing operational conditions right. 

I've sailed in wool, polypropylene, polyester fleece, acrylic, cotton, and strange blends. I agree with you that in an ocean environment there can be challenges. In the salt environment there are hot days and cold days. IF your clothing is getting salt spray at some point you have to rinse it (even in salt water!) even if it is some "miracle" fabric. Wool will keep working through all this. Cotton will dry out in ocean conditions but only if it is sunny and warm enough. But in north atlantic it will probably be damp for the rest of the trip. So you put on your wool, acrylic, fleece etc and keep dry. Been there done that.

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26 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Completely different environments. Cycling/technical thermals/sport wear made out of synthetics works great in inside out drying conditions (e.g. sweat —> fabric —> atmosphere). 
 

They don’t work when there’s salt spray - not enough thermal drying energy to evaporate when there’s salt. 
 

There is no such thing as the perfect in all circumstances garment - but at least get the differing operational conditions right. 

Indeed. Material is only one part of the equation as well. Cut and fit equally as important.

 

And sailing has several different usage profiles, from dingy sailing to inshore sailboats to offshore passage making.

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1 hour ago, doghouse said:

Modern poly cycling clothing is so far superior to wool in every facet it isn't even funny.

I agree--it stinks to high heaven in a way that wool cannot even begin to emulate.

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8 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

I agree--it stinks to high heaven in a way that wool cannot even begin to emulate.

I'm sorry you have uncontrollable B.O. and no washing machine.

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12 minutes ago, doghouse said:

I'm sorry you have uncontrollable B.O. and no washing machine.

LOL actually I don't have BO -- it is only with plastic fibers. Thats the point. There's nothing you can do to make them as good as wool for this aspect. Hand, durability, moisture permeability, moisture transfer, wind blocking, etc you can do all that. But the reality is that you cannot make them launder as well and they are naturally good at growing stinky things. This is siply reality. Yeah, I can put that stuff on and go for a ride. So can you. But you will have stinky clothes that you want to get off immediately in a way that a wool jersey will not be yelling at you about.

And then, in the end, they become microplastic particles. Wool goes back to nature.

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39 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

And then, in the end, they become microplastic particles. Wool goes back to nature

This is a legitimate concern, and wool has certainly been better in this regard. But a lot of companies are starting to bring recycling into their manufacturing process. Isadore in particular does a really good job of this in cycling. There is a still a cost to recycling, but it makes it a lot more palatable.

 

But I'm telling you poly doesn't have to stink. I've got 5+ year old pieces of Assos kit and they don't smell whatsoever. And on a hard and fast day in 90 degree heat with 90 percent humidity, wool would literally suffocate you on top of sagging like a bitch. There is no comparison.

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I wear Asso and you’re right it doesn’t stink provided you’re washing it after every ride - I think what you guys are talking past each other is the reality that at least in the case of offshore sailing, it simply won’t manage odor well. 

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10 minutes ago, doghouse said:

This is a legitimate concern, and wool has certainly been better in this regard. But a lot of companies are starting to bring recycling into their manufacturing process. Isadore in particular does a really good job of this in cycling. There is a still a cost to recycling, but it makes it a lot more palatable.

 

But I'm telling you poly doesn't have to stink. I've got 5+ year old pieces of Assos kit and they don't smell whatsoever. And on a hard and fast day in 90 degree heat with 90 percent humidity, wool would literally suffocate you on top of sagging like a bitch. There is no comparison.

Oddly enough I have some old Patagonia stuff that never smells, and newer stuff that reeks and is impossible to get the smell out of.

As a sailing layer, wool's got a lot going for it.

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Just now, Miffy said:

I wear Asso and you’re right it doesn’t stink provided you’re washing it after every ride - I think what you guys are talking past each other is the reality that at least in the case of offshore sailing, it simply won’t manage odor well. 

We had one guy on an ocean crossing who wouldn't "manage his odour." So we managed it for him: "take your bath now!" Haha. Unfortunately his stinkiness had already won him a bunk that nobody would hot-bunk through. So he kinda won the war.

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19 minutes ago, doghouse said:

This is a legitimate concern, and wool has certainly been better in this regard. But a lot of companies are starting to bring recycling into their manufacturing process. Isadore in particular does a really good job of this in cycling. There is a still a cost to recycling, but it makes it a lot more palatable.

 

But I'm telling you poly doesn't have to stink. I've got 5+ year old pieces of Assos kit and they don't smell whatsoever. And on a hard and fast day in 90 degree heat with 90 percent humidity, wool would literally suffocate you on top of sagging like a bitch. There is no comparison.

Looks like Isadore uses recycled materials? Just skimmed it. But that doesn't get rid of the shed fibers "problem."  I lost a red patagonia a coupe years ago. Lost it capsizing. Damn it all--it's probably killed a sea turtle in Long Island Sound by now. We had a 500 pounder (leatherback) wash up a few years ago.

In Maryland where I started my racing career it was almost as hot as Virginia Beach. Almost. Wool for shorts? Not so good (like you say, tehy don't hold shape as well). But jerseys, me like best. I learned that as I'd climb a big hill and then go bombing down the other side I'd actually get goosebumps if I was riding in a tshirt. Crazy. Not like I was going to die of hypothermia but the wool jerseys moderated that better.

In the ocean, give me wool though. It doesn't get smelly for an amazing length of time.

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9 minutes ago, Miffy said:

I wear Asso and you’re right it doesn’t stink provided you’re washing it after every ride - I think what you guys are talking past each other is the reality that at least in the case of offshore sailing, it simply won’t manage odor well. 

No, I'm not saying that at all. With regards to sailing gear there is a wide range of needs as I listed. What you wear buoy racing is different than offshore sailing is different than dingy sailing. They all take different specific kit.

 

My response to him was a completely different conversation about cycling gear. Though I wear my Assos 1/3 base layer under a Patagonia capilene long sleeve for super hot conditions buoy racing, works phenomenally.

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6 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Looks like Isadore uses recycled materials? Just skimmed it. But that doesn't get rid of the shed fibers "problem."  

Yes, they do the best job I've seen so far. And you're right, as I mentioned it's not perfect, but a step in the right direction. They happen to make a lot of merino tops too, which sounds up your alley. I like their merino for spring, but way too hot for summer for me. Their Climbers jersey is pretty cool wearing though. Best hot weather I have found is Assos Equipe RS in white. That's what I wore riding through the desert in Dubai.

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