Jubblies

Can you make a "PHRF cheater"?

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Can you make a "PHRF cheater"?

I would say yes. Over the years it's been my observation that most boats are sailing at or below their ratings, and occasionally a few boats are way out performing their ratings. The question is why?

Now we all know that there are some boats out there that are flat out not rated accurately. There are reasons these anomalies exist such as lack of data points on low production boats, but Im not talking about these. I'm talking about the high production boat with a well established rating.

Let's first look at "a well established rating". This is a problematic statement. Take look at a random boat that fits this category. Say a J-30. This boat was in production for 7 years ending in 1986. This means that the NEWEST J-30 is now 34 years old. When was the last time your local PHRF board re-assessed the rating for a J-30. My guess would be 34 years ago!

Why is this important?

Looking around at the PHRF fleets I've sailed in over the last 30 years, there is something consistent. The average age of the fleet tends to be stuck in 20 year old boats. I would venture to guess this is largely based on the affordability of 20 year old boats. Well with this in mind we have to remember that things happen to a boat in 20 years.

Decks get wet,
Blisters form,
As a result of a wet'ish - wet boat, the boat flexes more,
Sail design and technology changes,
Bottom and foils get sanded on so many times, they are no where near their original shape (if they ever were to begin with)

These are just a few things I can think of off the top of my head that will slow down the performance of the boat. If you can think of more, I'd love to hear.

What does this all have to do with making a PHRF cheater? I would think it's pretty obvious...

  1. Buy any well established 20-30 year old boat
  2. Fix the shit...
    Re-core the deck, long board the bottom, template the foils, and replace, glass in,  and/or reinforce all the areas of the boat that may have been fatigued and flexing over the years. This will be easy once you start the process, because as you fix one area the loads will start transferring to the next weakest point until you reach the transom! Done right it will probably flex less than when it was first delivered.
  3. It's pretty obvious that you will never sail at or above your rating if you're putting up 20 year old rags. I would contend that there are significant differences between the sails we used even as recent as ten years ago and the sails we use now. They simply stretch significantly less, and are significantly lighter. Directly translating to more power and less heel. Chances are the guy winning in your PHRF fleet has them.
  4. Upgrade your gear. Again technology has changed. Modern hardware handles more load and handles easier, with the added bonus of being more than likely lighter in weight.
  5. Upgrade your cordage. If you don't think it's a big deal, do yourself a favor. Change one halyard from polyester to vectran, then report back to me.

Again, I think the list could be much larger. This is just the start, and again would love to hear the feedback. The point being you can start to see how one could start transforming that old (insert whichever 30 year old boat) into a "PHRF cheater", simply based on the fact that PHRF generally either has not, or does not adjust ratings over time for how a boat degrades, but most importantly how peak maintenance  and new technology can effect older designs.

Stop looking for the ultimate cheater...
MAKE YOUR OWN!

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Great topic.  I have two seperate views on this:

1)  Regatta, or spinnaker fleet season championships...  The upgrades you list are the bare minimum that should be done to the boat.

2)  If your goal is to increase participation, this is usually done in JAM races or Family races.  Where do we find these additional boats?  Most of the time they are the cruising or cruiser/racers in our clubs.  Like the Cal 33 with dodger, roller furlering, 100% jib, full water tanks, roller main....  In your example, a J/30 should beat this boat every single time, new sails or old just due to the added weight, windage, sails, line handling systems... of the Cal 33.

If the goal is to increase numbers, then more measurement needs to be done, on the cruising boats, and time at least in PHRF needs to be added to their ratings.  I am not talking a roller furling credit, that is a bullshit credit, most people are running racing 155% genoas on a roller drum just to get the credit.  I know it sounds like a lot of work, but we need to measure overlap of sails, ask owner how much water capacity do you have (cut that in half?) do you sail with dodger up....  That still won't make up for all the shit down below like dishes, pans, clothing, tv's...  but it is a start.

I am both sides of this.  I race a one design keelboat, but my family and like like to flop around on our old cruising boat for family races too.  I am not asking for a rating adjustment, but there are boats in our fleet who need them to make it fair for them to compete.

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53 minutes ago, Will said:

but there are boats in our fleet who need them to make it fair for them to compete.

Now you are talking more about handicapping the sailor than the boat. 

The premise of PHRF and other ratings is that the boat is well maintained and prepared. 

Here are NORCAL PHRF guidlines: 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
8
Quote

The racing will take place primarily on and around the central San Francisco Bay

2. The wind velocities will be an approximate median of the lesser winter wind speeds and the higher summer wind speeds

3. The ratings reflect the prevalent use of traditional windward/leeward courses with a minimum of reaching legs or random leg courses.

4. The yacht is in optimum racing trim and all normal equipment is on board

5. The hull bottom is fair and clean

6. The sails are in good condition

7. The propeller folds/feathers or the yacht has an outboard that can be raised clear of the water

8. The yacht is expected to be competently sailed

9. The yacht is not modified beyond the expectations of the committee at the time the rating was issued. The yacht shall not be “stripped out”. For example, all of the drawers, doors, systems and interior at the time of the rating shall remain in place. If the vessel is a production boat, all of the standard items expected to be on board are in place. If a certification such as ORR or IRC was supplied with the rating application, all equipment accounted for in those certifications shall remain in place. One exception to this assumption is the removal of cushions.

10. The Committee will evaluate classes that allow different engine installations on a case by case basis.

11. The sails are in conformance with the assumptions below:

a. Jib LP is less than 155% of J. For non-conforming production vessels, the Base Rating will be so annotated

b. The midpoint on the headsail leech to the closest point on the luff shall be less than 55% of LP.

c. Mainsail girth maximums as described in Part 2

d. Vessel is equipped with a spinnaker

e. Spinnaker maximum girths as described in Part 2

f. Spinnaker maximum luff as described in Part 2

g. All sails conform to maximum IMS sail dimension limitations

The ratings shall be established taking specific attributes of the vessel into account. Examples of these include displacement (weight), waterline length, sail area and hull form. Previous ORR, IRC and National PHRF ratings are very useful for evaluation. Also used for evaluation are a vessel’s similarity to other rated vessels, photos, drawings and various design data. The rating is a numerical value, divisible by three, corresponding to seconds per nautical mile. The minimum rating increment is three seconds per nautical mile. The rating’s usage is covered in Section XI. RACE RESULTS.

A value referred to as a Base Rating will typically be assigned to a vessel. This Base Rating can then be slightly modified based on characteristics particular to that vessel. This is very typical of production vessels. Custom or “on-off” vessels will receive an “as-sailed” or “custom” rating notation. For vessels that, while production, face inherent rating penalties due to design features, the committee reserves the right to apply a “custom” rating at its discretion. It also reserves the right to maintain this rating despite modifications made in an effort to bring the vessel into compliance with the PRHF guidelines.

If sailors don't continually upgrade and keep their bottoms cleaned then they won't sail to their boats best performance.

If you upgrade a 30-60 yr old boat with modern cordage, spars and sails it should sail better.

No doubt if I put carbon spars into Lioness I would save over a hundred pounds of weight aloft.

Should that trigger a rating adjustment?

How much ? 

Should I be penalized for putting the time and expense into keeping my hull, rig and sails up to date? 

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Either way you do it, it a lot of $$$ and/or your time doing everything.

Yard fees and labor to do the work is off the hook
New sails are....wow. Buy modern Dac and you'll be replacing the sails sooner anyway.

I did the buy a 20 year old 26' thing, built in 1988 but it was an excellent build. Had a surveyor friend look it over and he found no water intrusion in the balsa core anywhere. The boat is built like a brick shit house.

  • Bought good insurance #1
  • started replacing everything except the winches. Luckily I knew enough people to be able to get lots of gear at pretty much wholesale. Some of the gear was last years or older but still never used.
  • Old mast buckled in 25knts of wind. Insurance wrote a nice check.  New mast, rigging BADDA BING
  • Talked to my Friend at Ullman Ventura and got a bro deal on sails. I used to work and sail with him in the 70's / 80's. Take care of them and the new stuff will last. The only issue is the #1 being racked across the rig when tacking.
  • New brakes for the trailer.

Tons of fun and trophies (I give most away to the crew) for a fraction of the cost of a new boat if you can swing it. All up about $16,000 including the boat purchase of 4K

There are jewels out there if you can find them.

Old shot deck shot. Look at that traveler and cars.

deck.jpg

Old sails, still taking the start

start4.JPG

New Main, Mast, Traveler but still old jib. It's amazing what some cleaner can do for an old deck

prestartdrift_2.jpg

 

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31 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Now you are talking more about handicapping the sailor than the boat. 

The premise of PHRF and other ratings is that the boat is well maintained and prepared. 

Here are NORCAL PHRF guidlines: 

If sailors don't continually upgrade and keep their bottoms cleaned then they won't sail to their boats best performance.

If you upgrade a 30-60 yr old boat with modern cordage, spars and sails it should sail better.

No doubt if I put carbon spars into Lioness I would save over a hundred pounds of weight aloft.

Should that trigger a rating adjustment?

How much ? 

Should I be penalized for putting the time and expense into keeping my hull, rig and sails up to date? 

Sure... if you're winning consistently, you should be emotionally prepared to be handicapped so the rest of the fleet thinks they have a fair chance.

PHRF is not a competitive event, it's a social one.

That aside, I've raced in a lot of "competitive" PHRF fleets... Florida, the Chesapeake, Chicagoland... where the consistent winners had nice sails but didn't fair their keels or tune their masts or other things that would be taken for granted in an above-mid-fleet one design. One season I raced a classic down in Florida and the local rating committee adjusted my handicap retroactively 5 or 6 times until I could literally sail a race drunk to the point of seeing double (I was younger and dumber), finish in time to be back in my slip taking a nap before the next boat crossed the line, and still come in 4th to the committee's chosen favorites.

If you're not having fun, do something different. If the others in the fleet aren't ALSO having fun, then expect your fleet to shrink.

FB- Doug

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I'm not sure the J-30 is the best example to use here.  There are many well kept J-30s still racing and (as you say) its rating is well established.  Go to Hampton YC and try to beat regularly "Cool Change" for example.

Now if you're talking a boat that either used to race a lot but now mostly is used as a cruiser...say the mighty Pearson 30, then you've got yourself some great potential.  The other approach is to get a boat that has potential to be a good racer, but never really was.  Like a Starwind 27.  Most folks use it as a "first: boat, into to cruising.  But with a design by Jim Taylor, and with deep keel, tiller steered boats out there, someone could get themselves a pretty nice little Wed Night beercan boat for not a million dollars.

In most of those cases, I don't consider doing that as being a "PHRF Cheater".  You're really just bringing an older boat back into racing trim.  The fact that most folks aren't doing that isn't your fault.  Kinda the Dennis Conner thing, but not taken to the extreme he's done (as money for most of us isn't unlimited).  Plus you can do it as a "rolling upgrade program" over a number of years while still sailing your boat.  Sails in year one.  Updated deck layout in year 2.  Slick racing bottom in year 3.  Etc, etc.

The other way you could "gain" an advantage is to plot the rating of a number of boats in the same fleet across several different PHRF areas using one well known boat (J-30?) as the benchmark.  Often, you may find a boat that rates even with or owes time to the J-30 in other areas is owed time in the area you are racing in...

 

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You can only build a PHRF cheater if you change a fixed to folding prop and 'forget' to report it, change rudders and not report, alter keel ect. ALL of which are done regularly in PHRF-LO district. Thats direct cheating and it happens in every sport.

Buying an odd ball nobody is racing and tricking it out, new sails , well sorted bottom is not cheating. Its winning PHRF. 

PHRF formulas are based on the idea you have good sails, faired bottom, working winches. Preparation is not cheating.

Edited by crankcall
sp
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Maybe this thread should be titled, “ Can you build a PHRF beater?”  The answer to which, is of course, “Yes!”

What are the best candidates? Staying u set 35 ft the J-22, J-29, J-33 immediately spring to mind.  Laser 28 for sure. B-25 seems good. CF-27.  How about the old mid 70’ s Farr 30, or the newer Farr 30 for that matter? This list could be endless.

You know what could be a cool thread?  Resto-mods.  Show your older racers, racer/cruisers that have been updated with all new kit.

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I've been saying what Jubblies says forever.

Everybody has. It's no secret. The only non-believers are the hacks that can't cut it on an even playing field. If there's a secret, it's that if you can start at the favored end of the line, pick the favored side of the course, spot and act on shifts, feel if the boat is in the groove... you're going to win against faster boats, consistently.

So... pick a boat that is so established that the rating won't change barring intervention from The Almighty Himself.

  • Make sure it is structurally sound and smooth.
  • New sails.
  • New rigging.
  • Modernized deck layout.

and in case you forgot...

  • Actually deserve to win by using experience, skill, and practice.

What makes the worst PHRF boat? Any custom or limited production boat where the local board can not determine if it is the boat which is winning or you. Yachting is full to the brim with competitors who want to buy wins. Pretty much can't be done in PHRF. But you can "unbuy" losses by ignoring the above, especially the skill part.

And a final note:

  • Buy a boat which is fun to sail. That has intrinsically good characteristics, a good feel to the helm, responds to tuning, etc. "Rate Low and Go Slow" is not the recipe for fun.

 

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None of the improvements you discussed make that boat a PHRF cheater, it is simply doing what the rules allow. PHRF assumes you have a well prepared boat, so it's OK to prepare it well. Those owners who neglect all that maintenance and upgrading are giving away to the better prepared boats.

That being said, not everyone wants to work that hard on their old family boats but they still want the fun of racing. Do we say, "Tough luck, you are going to perennially lose."?

In our area we want to encourage those boats with old sails and filled with cruising gear. We have defined a set of rating adjustments to address extra weight (declared and listed) old dacron sails, fixed propellers, and other speed slowing factors. Some boats get 12-18 seconds a mile against the well prepared sister ship, but it works. No one has the excuse, "I could never win" and corrected times are remarkably close. But the best prepared boats are often sailed by the keenest sailors and they still win most of the races, just not by such big margins. Everyone has a chance..

What is a PHRF cheater? It is someone who declares one thing (like a sail size) but uses something else. we have these too.

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Just do what Dennis Connor used to do. 

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You have a new boat that does 8kts

You have an old boat that does 7kts

You make improvements to the  old boat and it goes  8kts

You cheat and make illegal changes to an old or new boat and it goes  8.5kts

The real question is can you take a mint condition J-30 and put modern sails on her and gain seconds per mile. Yes

We always joke about one design  handicaps. There should be a new boat & old boat handicap. I’m sailing a beat to shite 30 year old Laser. You beat me by 10 boat lengths. You are sailing a brand new Laser your Sugar Daddy bought you last week. You and I and the rest of the fleet know that I won the race. More importantly everyone knows I ran a Clinic on the whole fleet. 

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The J22 and the J24 regularly get PHRF ratings that get faster and faster (lower) on Lake Ontario. The J24 and J22 have the fastest PHRF ratings in North America on Lake Ontario. 35+ year and 40+ year old boats. 

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1 hour ago, wingssail said:

None of the improvements you discussed make that boat a PHRF cheater, it is simply doing what the rules allow. PHRF assumes you have a well prepared boat, so it's OK to prepare it well.

Yea, that was kinda the point of the thread :)

3 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

or the newer Farr 30 for that matter? 

Hard to imagine that's a 20 year old boat now. Which goes back to my point about PHRF fleets being dominated forever by 20 year old boats that are finally affordable for the Wednesday nighters and weekend warriors.

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I wonder if one way to get some of the older hulls back out on the water and being used would be to add in an "age allowance" factor for the age of the hull.  Not sure it would work nearly as well if on sails.  Not to big an adjustment, but if you could get 3 secs for an 1980s boat or 6 secs for a 1960s boat, you might see more old boats being used and taken care of.  

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7 hours ago, Jubblies said:

Can you make a "PHRF cheater"?

Yes, it’s called the J/33.  Rates 84 because only a few were made and back then all the serious racers were racing the J/35 (which became the PHRF benchmark boat)

Step 1, upgrade it with all 3Di sails, the j/35 owes it 12 sec a mile, but is barely faster.  Step 2, win often.

 

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2 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

Yes, it’s called the J/33.  Rates 84 because only a few were made and back then all the serious racers were racing the J/35 (which became the PHRF benchmark boat)

Step 1, upgrade it with all 3Di sails, the j/35 owes it 12 sec a mile, but is barely faster.  Step 2, win often.

 

A chairman of a PHRF committee once told me, there are certain boats that are “good for PHRF” and there are boats that aren’t. One of the same committee members owns a J33. You be the judge. 
 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, airacer said:

A chairman of a PHRF committee once told me, there are certain boats that are “good for PHRF” and there are boats that aren’t. One of the same committee members owns a J33. You be the judge. 
 

 

 

That's ridiculous

PHRF is an observed performance handicap. Any boat that wins consistently should be looked at for re-rating by the local committee.

- DSK

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You are so preoccupied with whether or not you could make phrf cheater, you didn’t stop to think if you should.

i guess if you want to win all those pickle dishes, and be the dominant boat (insert chest pounding and ape sounds here) by all means have at it.

doing a horizon job on the fleet each an every time isn’t fun.

  Challenge yourself.  Swap boat with the worst skipper and see what happens...

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6 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

That's ridiculous

PHRF is an observed performance handicap. Any boat that wins consistently should be looked at for re-rating by the local committee.

- DSK

Ha ha ha Older boats (j/boats especially) are NEVER re-rated, their ratings are set in stone. 

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44 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

That's ridiculous

No. That was a bendytoy 36.7  :ph34r:

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26 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:
37 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

That's ridiculous

PHRF is an observed performance handicap. Any boat that wins consistently should be looked at for re-rating by the local committee.

 

Ha ha ha Older boats (j/boats especially) are NEVER re-rated, their ratings are set in stone. 

Agreed, in general, older plentiful boats (like many J/boats) don't get their ratings changed -if- their local rating is consistent with other areas.

When one consistently appears to sail above it's rating, should the committee take a look to make sure the boat is sailing 'as rated' at a minimum?

PHRF racing is a bitch-fest. The PHRF racing skipper should develop the ability to brag about his boat's speed while simultaneously complaining about his rating.

IMHO unless the local fleet is expanding and growing so fast that the start line needs to be set with self-propelled buoys, the local ratings committee should strive to produce FAIR racing ie a set of ratings such that every boat perceives that it has a fair chance to win.

All that aside, PHRF racing is still a social event not a competition.

FB- Doug

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2 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

PHRF racing is a bitch-fest. The PHRF racing skipper should develop the ability to brag about his boat's speed while simultaneously complaining about his rating.

 

Don’t forget about the political skills to sandbag races and make the right friends to protect your rating. Very important PHRF skill. 

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2 minutes ago, airacer said:

Don’t forget about the political skills to sandbag races and make the right friends to protect your rating. Very important PHRF skill. 

In a lot of places, you can volunteer to be on the committee yourself. It used to be that these positions were guarded jealously and handed out as valued patronage by the Commodores and other elite; but now in many places the committee is bigger than the fleet and positions are going begging.

FB- Doug

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3 hours ago, wingssail said:

None of the improvements you discussed make that boat a PHRF cheater, it is simply doing what the rules allow. PHRF assumes you have a well prepared boat, so it's OK to prepare it well. Those owners who neglect all that maintenance and upgrading are giving away to the better prepared boats.

1 hour ago, Jubblies said:

Yea, that was kinda the point of the thread :).

Absolutely, END OF DISCUSSION.

 

16 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

PHRF racing is a bitch-fest. The PHRF racing skipper should develop the ability to brag about his boat's speed while simultaneously complaining about his rating.

FB- Doug

Everything is changing in areas were intelligent people sail.

Because US Sailing has abdicated their responsibility as stewards of PHRF, a few areas are actually moving forward with an "Intelligent review process".

If you live in an area where nothing has moved forward. Please feel free to volunteer and look to the areas that are moving forward.

Otherwise, get a OD Class boat that will last based on your investment. That can be a hard decision.......................which POS J class will last???????

 

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I can’t wait until later this season when Chesapeake PHRF starts to roll back -so to speak- the BS 9 sec “roller furling headsail” credit everyone was claiming.  It was intended to protect cruisers but was being exploited by folks buying $8000 3Di jibs.

i expect they will burn it down (does PHRF have a lair to burn down?)

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5 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

....

Because US Sailing has abdicated their responsibility as stewards of PHRF, a few areas are actually moving forward with an "Intelligent review process".

If you live in an area where nothing has moved forward. Please feel free to volunteer and look to the areas that are moving forward.

Otherwise, get a OD Class boat that will last based on your investment. That can be a hard decision.......................which POS J class will last???????

 

 

The majority of my racing career has been in one-design, Lightnings and J-24s and Sunfish and Force 5s and Thistles and San Juan 21s (the only class I've been involved in a 3-way tie for 1st) and JY-15s and MC-scows and Ensigns and J29s (not really a one-design) and Olson 30s and my favorite the Johnson 18 and most recently Buccaneers, along with 420s and FJs.

I also volunteer quite a lot for Race Committee work and have the honor of occasionally serving as Principle Race Officer for events in our area.

Intelligent review sounds like a great idea.

FB- Doug

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7 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

I can’t wait until later this season when Chesapeake PHRF starts to roll back -so to speak- the BS 9 sec “roller furling headsail” credit everyone was claiming.  It was intended to protect cruisers but was being exploited by folks buying $8000 3Di jibs.

i expect they will burn it down (does PHRF have a lair to burn down?)

A roller furler credit is no necessarily bullshit but it should only apply to sails that are stored on a roller furler. Did the rating committee put a seal on the rolled-up jib and check that the $8K 3di sail is left rolled up all winter?

Years ago, we went thru a somewhat similar shuffle here and I suggested that boats seeking to be rated as cruisers be rated according to

windlass and anchor on the bow... additional anchors stowed in the lazarette

dodger left standing

Full cooking and plumbing facilities

lazyjacks or dutchman

stern grill

solar panel and/or wind generator

engine and prop that falls at or above the middle of one of the disp/HP/prop graph in Skenes or L&E or another credible yacht design textbook

etc etc etc

with a very slight bonus for these items and no boat that didn't have 5 or 6 out of a list of 12 or 13 equipments that cruisers typically have and racers dont. Of course, there were several racers who wanted to collect trophies from the easy-meat cruisers and they hated the idea. Genius is rarely appreciated.

FB- Doug

 

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47 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

Everything is changing in areas were intelligent people sail.

That's pretty damn funny!  

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1 hour ago, Marcjsmith said:

You are so preoccupied with whether or not you could make phrf cheater, you didn’t stop to think if you should.

i guess if you want to win all those pickle dishes, and be the dominant boat (insert chest pounding and ape sounds here) by all means have at it.

doing a horizon job on the fleet each an every time isn’t fun.

  Challenge yourself.  Swap boat with the worst skipper and see what happens...

missing_the_point.png

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This whole good/ bad phrf rating works both ways. We had a custom 1/2 ton IOR in 1982. We got 2nd behind Ted Turner at North Americans. Campaigned her really hard for about 5 years then took a break. We did a 10 year refit. New younger crew. We won everything local(Off Soundings) for 2 yrs including their 5% per race handicap. We had a fair phrf number. Our skipper & crew won those races not the boat. 
 

We built a custom 39’ cruiser/racer. Pretty fancy but still had all the cruising gear. The fucking committee gave us the same rating as a Farr/Mumm 40. We got hammered for two years until they change it. 
 

The skipper/owner was really good and a bit arrogant. The committee simply wanted to put him in his place. 

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15 minutes ago, CaptainAhab said:

 We had a custom 1/2 ton IOR in 1982.

Design?  G&S were doing well at the time.  

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Chance 32. He was doing well with the big ones at that time. Ugly below the waterline. All of the lumps and bumps.

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One of PHRFs mandates is to 'protect' the fleet to try and keep racing fair. If buddy goes and gets an oddball rocket and wins everything the next season he should see an adjustment to his rating based on his results.

If it doesnt happen where you live, dont hate PHRF,  distrust your local PHRF committee. And every district has the frustrated nuclear engineer that would like to sail but also likes arithemetic so he joins the phrf committee and favors and lobbies to ignore his bar buddy. It happens, so join the committee and work for positive change.

Or just buy a OD and go get your ass kicked.

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Around 1980 when PHRF came to South Florida, I had a custom, one off, quarter toner.

PHRF gave me a not real rating.

When I questioned it, was told, it's a custom boat, we can give you whatever we want. Message was, don't race a custom boat in PHRF. 

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In my local area you must have an old 80's style boat, C&C 39 J30 ect...and some have even older racing against sport boats; boats that weigh 1/2 to 1/4 of thier weight.   The witnd is light and the courses are short and new boats cannot get away from the older boats enough to save thier time.  Boats are staying away the classes keep getting merged and now you are in a death sprial.  What kills me the guys winning are the same guys every year and they think the system is great. 

I am now transiting to double handed with the wife as these guys are having fun and my goal out sailing is more techinical   - to finish married.  

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Yep, we have a boat in our area like that, 1 owner 1980 28 footer.  Rebuilt 3 times since new including deck recoring. Updated deck hardware. New mast about 5 years ago.  Sail inventory that probably exceeds the value of the boat.  Great core crew . Talented skipper, former MORC national champ. A consistent winner every year. Oh wait, isn't that the boat Jubblies crews on Wednesday nights?  Looks like we are being trolled and the editor fell for it.

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22 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

if you're winning consistently, you should be emotionally prepared to be handicapped so the rest of the fleet thinks they have a fair chance.

If you are winning consistently, and you aren't consistently sailing well then adjusting your rating makes some sense.

Penalizing the skipper and crew for sailing well is a Golf thing, not what PHRF is about. 

Knowing the difference? Priceless:

 

Much ranting and a bit of math goes far. 

We put a "Smartweather" station at our starting line. It's nice to be able to see what the current conditions are from away, and also gives objective data on what the conditions were during the race for 5 min increments.

A little bit of excel work and you can evaluate the speed of your fleet vs conditions and rate the median speeds against each other, while disregarding any that are outliers due to poor decisions or luck (good or bad) 

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Why are not US clubs considering replacing PHRF to ORC? Especially in the year of Worlds. I bet it is not harder to obtain ORC club certificate than it is to PHRF.

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31 minutes ago, Fonx said:

Why are not US clubs considering replacing PHRF to ORC? Especially in the year of Worlds. I bet it is not harder to obtain ORC club certificate than it is to PHRF.

Well where I sail they do both and its expensive to say the least.  

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21 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

You know what could be a cool thread?  Resto-mods.  Show your older racers, racer/cruisers that have been updated with all new kit.

That sounds like a good idea

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1 minute ago, Lucky Dog said:

Well where I sail they do both and its expensive to say the least.  

How expensive? You should be able to get ORC for 70 euros/year (80 dollars?), since you can declare your own measurements in club ORC.

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2 hours ago, Fonx said:

Why are not US clubs considering replacing PHRF to ORC? Especially in the year of Worlds. I bet it is not harder to obtain ORC club certificate than it is to PHRF.

They are. It’s called ORR-EZ and several regional authorities have switched to it from PHRF  

 

 

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Great.  Another PHRF bitch-fest.  I'll join.

PHRF is so junior-varsity.  It's great for those looking for entry level racing.  Varsity is a measurement rule, like ORC, IRC, ORR.  I like conditions-based ratings (ORR) because your venerable J-30 performs differently in 5 kn than 15 kn.  So does a Halberg-Rassy 56.

I absolutely love the folks that complain about the extra cost of measurement systems.  For the same cost as a decent dinner for 4 at a restaurant, you can get an ORC-Club or ORR-ez cert.  And to what Jubblies said about the J-30 PHRF rating, ORC/IRC/ORR re-assess their ratings every single year.  That's part of the reason of the extra cost.

So it's up to you.  Complain bitterly about junior-varsity or level up to varsity.

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15 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

They are. It’s called ORR-EZ and several regional authorities have switched to it from PHRF  

 

 

The main issue is that it's not necessarily any better than PHRF for casual, low key beercan racing.  ORC is a measurement rule, using that data to create a VPP.  Like all measurement rules (to date) it is typeforming, as no VPP based system yet perfectly characterizes a boats performance in all conditions. 

There is no one perfect rule or handicapping system. I'm not saying ORC is bad.  Or PHRF is great.  Both have advantages and disadvantages.  There is less subjective bitching with a measurement based rule so that, at least, is a huge benefit of ORC over PHRF.

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for me the ORR ez is not an option - they require me to get the full ORR.  I need to ORR for the Mac race.  Phrf for the club sailing and an overnight race I always do.

 

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PHRF keeps many families in the sport. Of course when you graduate from your University, you want to be in the Cool Kids local Yacht Club.  If you can afford a club racer in the J-24 - J-35 range you will be in the boatyard upgrading and sanding all winter. It's a social competition that transcends practicality and shifts the on the water competition to the bar in the afternoon. Many enjoy this cycle for decades and are more than comfortable not to advance into the IRC and ORC rating arenas. Sunday Afternoon Blazer Cocktail Parties  and discussions about the latest and greatest equipment and bottom paint (girls) were fun. In my opinion they should expand their horizons and explore the other rating options. Over the past decades I enjoyed upgrading an old hot rod phrf boat and sailing her fast. 50% of my social time was dedicated to the success of that yacht.  IRC and ORC make much more sense and the certificate application fees are very reasonable. (cheap)  In reality, the same team wins year after year because they prepare, practice and study harder than the rest of the fleet. The same holds true in one design. 

If the boat is considered a rule beater, that is a reflection of the boat owner working harder, studying harder and preparing better than the fleet. Cheat off of their paper and it my be you on the podium in a year or two. 

 

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On reflection the OP issue is not about modifying an old boat but restoring it to new condition with upgrades to sails, running rigging and deck hardware along with some recoring . None of these are rating penalty items in any rating system.  The same issue has crept in to aging One Design classes like the T-10 and J-24. If you haven't restored your T-10 you aren't competitive. In can be a problem in any rating system if you haven't brought an old boat up to snuff. 

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On 2/8/2020 at 5:55 PM, Crooked Beat said:

The J22 and the J24 regularly get PHRF ratings that get faster and faster (lower) on Lake Ontario. The J24 and J22 have the fastest PHRF ratings in North America on Lake Ontario. 35+ year and 40+ year old boats. 

Lake Ontario phrf constantly analize performance data (race results around the lake) and update phrf ratings.

If there is a particalur boat and it has a high phrf(slow rating). And suddenly one boat starts doing better things don't change.  But is 2-3 boats around the lake over a couple of years start doing better they adjust the rating.  Likewise if all the boats start performing badly it goes down.  

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, Cristoforo said:

They are. It’s called ORR-EZ and several regional authorities have switched to it from PHRF  

 

 

I got an ORR-EZ cert just for the fun of it. The big issue with many clubs using something like this is they really have to monitor or guesstimate the wind for the race. Many RC volunteers can barely handle PHRF TOT. Getting our area to switch from TOD to TOT is impossible.

You can look up some standard ORR-EZ ratings for lots of boats and Play with them in races that have already been run. I have not done this yet but probably should.
https://offshoreracingassociation.org/orr-ez

Here is the 2019 Cert for my Zap 26

Zap26 56267 ORR-EZ.pdf

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On 2/8/2020 at 6:13 PM, airacer said:

A chairman of a PHRF committee once told me, there are certain boats that are “good for PHRF” and there are boats that aren’t. One of the same committee members owns a J33. You be the judge. 
 

 

 

You must be from Western Long Island Sound

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On 2/8/2020 at 3:04 PM, Controversial_posts said:

Yes, it’s called the J/33.  Rates 84 because only a few were made and back then all the serious racers were racing the J/35 (which became the PHRF benchmark boat)

Step 1, upgrade it with all 3Di sails, the j/35 owes it 12 sec a mile, but is barely faster.  Step 2, win often.

 

On 2/8/2020 at 3:13 PM, airacer said:

A chairman of a PHRF committee once told me, there are certain boats that are “good for PHRF” and there are boats that aren’t. One of the same committee members owns a J33. You be the judge. 
 

On 2/8/2020 at 3:28 PM, Steam Flyer said:

That's ridiculous

PHRF is an observed performance handicap. Any boat that wins consistently should be looked at for re-rating by the local committee.

- DSK

Unless a boat is modified, it is rated at the class rating for the Area. If all of those J 33 consistently beat the J 35 fleet then yes, the rating should be looked at. Race data is very important when going into a review meeting. The more the better. We have rejected some reviews because people show up and bitch but do not prepare any data for the board to look at. It is the responsibility of the person requesting the review to prepare the data that supports their argument for an adjustment. Dazzle them with data, do not Baffle them with bullshit.

Just because someone takes better care of their boat, sails and sails smarter on the course and wins consistently against other class boats and a mixed fleet does not mean the rating should be adjusted. It means you need to get your shit together.

The big issue with PHRF is some go out to RACE, while others go out to SAIL, around the course.

After 4 years I no longer volunteer for the local or regional PHRF board.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, jesposito said:
On 2/8/2020 at 6:13 PM, airacer said:

A chairman of a PHRF committee once told me, there are certain boats that are “good for PHRF” and there are boats that aren’t. One of the same committee members owns a J33. You be the judge.  

You must be from Western Long Island Sound

Expo, youre boate issente that longue.......                      :)

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12 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

Expo, youre boate issente that longue.......                      :)

Perhaps it is on the internet... 

 

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Don't be a cheater.  :P

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you may be surprised to hear that this has been done literally hundreds of times.

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4 hours ago, peragrin said:

Lake Ontario phrf constantly analize performance data (race results around the lake) and update phrf ratings.

If there is a particalur boat and it has a high phrf(slow rating). And suddenly one boat starts doing better things don't change.  But is 2-3 boats around the lake over a couple of years start doing better they adjust the rating.  Likewise if all the boats start performing badly it goes down.  

 

 

 

I have watched the J22 and J24 boats get older and older along with the rest of the PHRF-LO fleet. There are very few less than 20 year old J22s and J24s on Lake Ontario. But the vast majority of J22s and J24s  are "well maintained and prepared". 

Many of rest of the PHRF-LO fleet have BBQs hanging off the stern, old sails, cruising gear aboard, etc.  They are not "well maintained and prepared". Yet PHRF-LO does not take this into account if they only look at race results. PHRF-LO preserves the rest of PHRF-LO fleet getting steadily slower at the expense of the J22 and J24 who maintain their boats in a "well maintained and prepared" manner. I have watched a good J24 sailor get on a C&C 30 who has struggled for years. That C&C 30 did very well that evening. But back to the same results the next evening race. PHRF rates the sailor not the boat?

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On 2/8/2020 at 5:28 PM, Steam Flyer said:

That's ridiculous

PHRF is an observed performance handicap. Any boat that wins consistently should be looked at for re-rating by the local committee.

- DSK

Unless it is an established boat with many sister yachts with the same rating. What most people do not take into consideration is that in PHRF you are not winning because your boat is faster, it's because you and your crew didn't screw up somewhere on the course. 

I am a former PHRF rating volunteer and it becomes very obvious that some boats are just sailed better than others. You can take your crappy old boat and switch with the best sailed yacht int the fleet and that crew will probably beat you with your own boat, soggy core and all. I was a sail rep and would sail with a lot of boats that did poorly 90% of the time but when someone was there to make the decisions for them they would do amazingly better and sometime win or at least be competitive. Go race one design, there are always crews and skippers that wipe the fleet on a regular basis even though all the boats have good sails and are prepped.

The one thing I am against is PHRF docking a boat because the crew wins, I saw this happen often. They would race the boat for a few years and pick up a pickle dish here and there. Next thing you know they start getting docked by the club or the local PHRF. How many guys have purchased winning PHRF boats but found they could not sail them to the rating? Why? It ain't the boat! ...and try to get the rating adjusted then, not happen'n..

Sure there are owners that do cheat with larger sails, smaller rudders, over faired keels, drastic weight reductions, and oversized riggs. My feeling for these people is if you have to cheat in PHRF racing you must really suck as a competitive sailor. This is amateur racing with boats that are well past their prime, work on your skills man! It's like the dad that cheats when making his kid's pinewood derby car. IT"S FOR FUN!

To answer the question, can you build a cheater? Why bother there are so many boats with gift ratings because there are only a few in the country. The trick is is if the boat looks fast it gets a shit rating. Look at the J/27 and the J/33 they both have fair rating bit don't look fast sitting at the dock. Look at the Tripp 33, good designer, built by Carol Marine, looks fast sitting still,  PHRF = 81, anybody ever remember this boat wining even once? Another one was the Catalina 37, looked fast but I always thought they never sailed to their rating.

PHRF is not a formula it is a somewhat of a guess, you will be surprised how many owners don't bother the protest their rating. Every meeting we would get maybe two protests, if we did it more and backed it up with data it may become more accurate over time. 

FRENZY 

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We had a local hack back in the 80s who took everything he entered.  His 35' was rated 90 when the national average was 78.  How did that happen you ask?  PHRF politics. He was well loved by the in crowd and claimed his boat had the keel whacked off 18" to fit our shallow bay.  Since the boat never left the water except for late night bottom jobs the claim modification could never be confirmed.  He sold the boat and had it pulled well after dark on a Sunday night and shipped well outta state.  That's when I decided one-design was the WTG.

-been there, seen that

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4 hours ago, jesposito said:

You must be from Western Long Island Sound

Back to the OPs original question 

You can add a Beam of Destiny to an old Olson 30 with no rating penalty. 
So that's one. 

 

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25 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

You can add a Beam of Destiny to an old Olson 30 with no rating penalty. 

Our alle the beames of densitey custum or ist theire factorey b.o.d.?

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20 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

Our alle the beames of densitey custum or ist theire factorey b.o.d.?

Making a boat stronger/stiffer and heavier 6' above the keel would rarely elicit punitive actions outside of one design.

Same as going to thicker and heavier rigging. 

Make it lighter, or screw with the righting moment and you should expect to get dinged. 

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6 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Making a boat stronger/stiffer and heavier

I thick Expo gettes upsette withe thisse plan of auctione                                 :)

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Take out all the furniture including the galley and head and dump those nasty cushions. Learn to embrace the 5 gallon bucket and pee in a milk jug. Plug up every hole except the one connected to bilge pump. Toss the inboard, water and fuel tank.  Get the smallest anchor. Don’t carry chain instead thinest nylon line. Go with the lightest possible outboard - 2hp or similar weight torqueedo like - enough to get you out of marina and to starting line. Limit the cooler to hold less than a 6 pack. (Learn to like to Smoke weed instead.) Never let anyone see the interior of your boat.  dont talk to others who have the same design or discuss any thing of material. Try to loose a few pounds. Never carry old fat crew. Sign up only electronically. Avoid bringing the boat to the racing club dock after the race or other place where it can been seen by competitors or people too into the phrf scene. When you pick up your award hat or lame beer glass trophy, do not linger and always thank the club officials for the opportunity to sail your s-box in their fine recreational contest.

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2 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

I thick Expo gettes upsette withe thisse plan of auctione                                 :)

I shan't inquire as to why you have knowledge or belief about Espo's feelings about stiffer... TMI

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The boat is expected to be in perfect condition. If you sails, gear and crew are not, that is your problem. Cheating with anything out of spec is cheating. Just report everything to the Committee , they will update your rating and you will still be on the podium. What shocks me is the qualifications and easily influenced Committee members that make these decisions. Hey, that sailmaker that's been on the PHRF Committee for decades...pal up with him and buy a few drinks and sails...your rating will be petrified. The sheep will follow. Sit back and wait then buy the boat that they favor...and sails from whoever you want. 

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16 hours ago, Cristoforo said:

Back to the OPs original question 

You can add a Beam of Destiny to an old Olson 30 with no rating penalty. 
So that's one. 

 

not anymore on LIS

 

Modifications  A modified boat is any standard boat that has been changed in some way that might affect its performance from the original design. Changes to the hull shape or structure, appendages, spars or sail plan, boat weight or propulsion are often created to make a boat more competitive. While older boats may require significant restorations in order to be maintained as safe and competitive, any and all of these should be noted where the restoration does not replicate the original design.   Modifications Which Must be Reported for Evaluation: 1. Hull, Transom, Keel, Board or Rudder: Changes that alter either the weight of the boat or the flow of water over wetted surfaces such as size, shape, length, materials, weight, location, center of gravity, etc.  2. Internal Structure: Changes or additions to the original manufactured design and construction that affect strength or stiffness of the hull, keel sump, rigging, weight, or weight distribution. This includes interior bulkheads, longitudinal stringers, keel sump bracing, tie rods, and compression struts.  

 

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2 minutes ago, dacapo said:

not anymore on LIS

 

Modifications  A modified boat is any standard boat that has been changed in some way that might affect its performance from the original design. Changes to the hull shape or structure, appendages, spars or sail plan, boat weight or propulsion are often created to make a boat more competitive. While older boats may require significant restorations in order to be maintained as safe and competitive, any and all of these should be noted where the restoration does not replicate the original design.   Modifications Which Must be Reported for Evaluation: 1. Hull, Transom, Keel, Board or Rudder: Changes that alter either the weight of the boat or the flow of water over wetted surfaces such as size, shape, length, materials, weight, location, center of gravity, etc.  2. Internal Structure: Changes or additions to the original manufactured design and construction that affect strength or stiffness of the hull, keel sump, rigging, weight, or weight distribution. This includes interior bulkheads, longitudinal stringers, keel sump bracing, tie rods, and compression struts.  

 

That has always been the case on LIS.  But there is a loophole. If  the owner does not declare the mod, there is no penalty.  

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1 minute ago, Cristoforo said:

That has always been the case on LIS.  But there is a loophole. If  the owner does not declare the mod, there is no penalty.  

1. it wasn;t always the case until last year

2.A loophole ....more like cheating. If I see someone cheating, a kick in the nutsack is appropriate, warranted and will happen and there will be a consequence. It's up to the competitors to sail fair and to self police....for those who know someone who is out of compliance and does nothing, they are just as guilty IMHO...

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4 minutes ago, dacapo said:

1. it wasn;t always the case until last year

2.A loophole ....more like cheating. If I see someone cheating, a kick in the nutsack is appropriate, warranted and will happen and there will be a consequence. It's up to the competitors to sail fair and to self police....for those who know someone who is out of compliance and does nothing, they are just as guilty IMHO...

1. Incorrect.  The regulations have always stated  

It is the sole responsibility of each boat owner to advise the PHRF Committee of any modifications to their boat, that in any way alters the configuration of the hull, foils, internal structure, sail plan, mast or rigging of the boat or that could potentially affect the sailing performance of the boat when compared to the rated standard boat.

Modifications Which Must be Reported for Evaluation:
2. Internal Structure: Changes or additions to the original manufactured design and construction that affect strength or stiffness of the hull, keel sump, rigging, weight, or weight distribution. This includes interior bulkheads, longitudinal stringers, keel sump bracing, tie rods, and compression struts.

Are you saying a BOM is not part of the internal structure and does not affect strength or stiffness and does not have to be reported?
Why would someone add it then?  

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

1. Incorrect.  The regulations have always stated  

It is the sole responsibility of each boat owner to advise the PHRF Committee of any modifications to their boat, that in any way alters the configuration of the hull, foils, internal structure, sail plan, mast or rigging of the boat or that could potentially affect the sailing performance of the boat when compared to the rated standard boat.

Modifications Which Must be Reported for Evaluation:
2. Internal Structure: Changes or additions to the original manufactured design and construction that affect strength or stiffness of the hull, keel sump, rigging, weight, or weight distribution. This includes interior bulkheads, longitudinal stringers, keel sump bracing, tie rods, and compression struts.

Are you saying a BOM is not part of the internal structure and does not affect strength or stiffness and does not have to be reported?
Why would someone add it then?  

 

 

 

no...the BOD must be declared as a modification. I agree that it  makes the boat go faster

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15 minutes ago, dacapo said:

no...the BOD must be declared as a modification. I agree that it  makes the boat go faster

ok . sorry i was using sarcasm non font earlier.. of courses there is no 'loophole' and regs always said this type of mod must be reported  

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18 hours ago, JimBowie said:

We had a local hack back in the 80s who took everything he entered.  His 35' was rated 90 when the national average was 78.  How did that happen you ask?  PHRF politics. He was well loved by the in crowd and claimed his boat had the keel whacked off 18" to fit our shallow bay.  Since the boat never left the water except for late night bottom jobs the claim modification could never be confirmed.  He sold the boat and had it pulled well after dark on a Sunday night and shipped well outta state.  That's when I decided one-design was the WTG.

-been there, seen that

If true, that's actually cheating....but you didn't actually see anything :D, so all you have are allegations...

And it's not like there isn't just as much or more subtle cheating that goes on in One Design, I mean, seriously?  You'll find cheating or allegations of cheating in every sport.

Baseball - Astro's sign stealling

Football - Patriots deflation gate or sideline videos

Hobart Race - turning off your tracker

etc, etc.  Let's not pretend like PHRF is full of cheaters, and the rest of sailing is lilly-white.

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17 hours ago, Black Jack said:

[  .  .  .  ]

Try to loose a few pounds. Never carry old fat crew.

[  .  .  .  ]

???  Then why do some one design fleets strictly enforce  crew weight limits?  Crew weight is *moveable* ballast and is advantageous in all but the lightest conditions.  

Brings back memories of racing with Marvin, a 320 pound Buddhist who was pure rail meat, had no idea what what we were doing or why and never touched a line or sail.    He simply enjoyed being out on the water.  In the light and lumpy stuff we'd put him on the cabin sole above the keel for a noticeable increase in stability.

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19 hours ago, JimBowie said:

We had a local hack back in the 80s who took everything he entered.  His 35' was rated 90 when the national average was 78.  How did that happen you ask?  PHRF politics. He was well loved by the in crowd and claimed his boat had the keel whacked off 18" to fit our shallow bay.  Since the boat never left the water except for late night bottom jobs the claim modification could never be confirmed.  He sold the boat and had it pulled well after dark on a Sunday night and shipped well outta state.  That's when I decided one-design was the WTG.

-been there, seen that

46 minutes ago, Crash said:

If true, that's actually cheating....but you didn't actually see anything :D, so all you have are allegations...

And it's not like there isn't just as much or more subtle cheating that goes on in One Design, I mean, seriously?  You'll find cheating or allegations of cheating in every sport.

Baseball - Astro's sign stealling

Football - Patriots deflation gate or sideline videos

Hobart Race - turning off your tracker

etc, etc.  Let's not pretend like PHRF is full of cheaters, and the rest of sailing is lilly-white.

And that is how you kill sailing.

This is where every PHRF Sailor who is a member of US Sailing has to tell US Sailing to write the Basic minimums for Boat and Sail Limitations / equations for sail area, performance factors.

With all the different rules around the globe, it is puzzling to see different equations for sail area. Geometry is Geometry. In SO Cal they looked to ORR for the Spin calculations because so many boats carry ORR and PHRF ratings.

I heard in the J 70 class where fairing the bottom was illegal, many owners would say they are putting bottom paint on and thus had to sand the bottom. Long boards came out, the bottom was sanded to the minimum tolerances, keels and rudders became better foils. Spray a barrier coat, sand a bit more and then they put the Black Widow on and burnished it glass smooth. Maybe they kept the boat in the water for a few weeks at a time now and then but the boats lived on trailers...............I call that cheating by stretching the rules to the point they are broken. This shit can really kill the sport.

 

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41 minutes ago, axolotl said:

???  Then why do some one design fleets strictly enforce  crew weight limits?  Crew weight is *moveable* ballast and is advantageous in all but the lightest conditions.  

Brings back memories of racing with Marvin, a 320 pound Buddhist who was pure rail meat, had no idea what what we were doing or why and never touched a line or sail.    He simply enjoyed being out on the water.  In the light and lumpy stuff we'd put him on the cabin sole above the keel for a noticeable increase in stability.

Nothing like a crew weigh in to discover the weight is 50 pounds over and then that everyone is sharing in weight loss program...... I didn’t have 5 pounds to lose, most of the other guys could have lost 10 easily, with some losing 20 and needing to. 

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58 minutes ago, Crash said:

If true, that's actually cheating....but you didn't actually see anything :D, so all you have are allegations...

And it's not like there isn't just as much or more subtle cheating that goes on in One Design, I mean, seriously?  You'll find cheating or allegations of cheating in every sport.

Baseball - Astro's sign stealling

Football - Patriots deflation gate or sideline videos

Hobart Race - turning off your tracker

etc, etc.  Let's not pretend like PHRF is full of cheaters, and the rest of sailing is lilly-white.

If people will cheat on their tax returns and spouses, they will certainly cheat in  a sailboat race.
So figure a very conservative number is ten percent of the population do the above.
Why would anyone be surprised when it happens? 
 

 


 

 

 

 

   

 

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20 hours ago, Cristoforo said:

Back to the OPs original question 

You can add a Beam of Destiny to an old Olson 30 with no rating penalty. 
So that's one. 

 

And Soveral 33 and Ev 32's

So I guess it's not illegal, which is fine as long as they keep it that way across the board.

That's why I added one to the 29 5 years ago, made a huge difference in over 12 knots of breeze

As long as the don't  penalize one boat and not another.  

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13 minutes ago, mad said:

Nothing like a crew weigh in to discover the weight is 50 pounds over and then that everyone is sharing in weight loss program...... I didn’t have 5 pounds to lose, most of the other guys could have lost 10 easily, with some losing 20 and needing to. 

Been down that road, a set of scales at the dock and everybody gets weighed.  The trick is lots of sauna time  with no drinking water to dehydrate, then rehydrate after weigh in.  MMA fighters do the same to drop a weight class, then show up for the fight 15 pounds over to their advantage.  Just don't pass out.

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We took my Capri 25 down to Lake Pleasant from Utah for their Birthday Regatta (no clue about what happened with the story on the FP, but we had a fabulous time and all the people we encountered were way rad).  The racing was tight, aggressive and a shitton of fun.  Out of 11 boats in our PHRF SPIN class, 7 boats had top 3 finishes.  4 of those had wins.   

After the first race (which we corrected 2nd out of 11 boats) for the first time in my life someone suggested my boat must have a gift rating.  Huh?  A Capri 25?  So basically what they were saying is that because we have a Capri 25 we aren't supposed to win?  Well, we won 2 races, our throwout was a 4th and we got 2nd for the regatta.  AYC uses SoCal PHRF ratings, so we rated 174.  Which is pretty average around the country for Capri 25's.

I have some new rigging, sails that are 2-3 seasons old but very well taken care of and a fresh DYI bottom job.  We put the boat on a serious diet removing anything that wasn't required to be there.  We even left our flip flops on the dock.  I've spent 3 years refining systems and layouts and replacing 30 year old shit.  We also sailed the fuck out of the boat.  The result was a fast boat with a crew who could take advantage of the speed.

3 years ago we took the boat to Flathead Lake and got our asses kicked.  We had only one new sail, average condition rigging, minimal time on the boat and just an OK bottom.

For those who complain about ratings and not winning in PHRF, I ask, what condition are your sails in?  How smooth is your bottom?  Do you sail with a blender on board?  If you do, that's fine.  You do what you think is best for your racing experience.  But don't expect to be given time simply because you choose not to prepare your boat and crew for racing.

Your club can do whatever they think will grow the fleet, however.  It's hard to gather a bunch of people who take racing to various levels of seriousness and all be happy.  If someone needs a credit to be out there for a weekend race, so be it.  But for a regional regatta I think the expectation that everyone show up ready to race is reasonable.  

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I have taken the pledge:

If I ever start bitching about my rating; I want to be shot.

Eric Arens at Richmond Yacht Club has his own Dynamic Handicapping System which is a great success. Participation in the Wednesday evening race to South Hampton Shoals and back has grown year on year. Eric does not disclose the formulas and algorithms he uses to establish ratings. Nor does he publish the ratings.  But he certainly awards bottles of wine for outstanding performance and or achievement above expectation. It's a great evening of sailing and camaraderie.  People plan their week around it.

SHC

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