K9u20

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A friend of mine was Albert motoring around and saw this multihull anchored. Anyone know what this is?

23ACEA53-4EB8-4B21-9E37-C5EF964EC976.jpeg

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Chris white mast foil

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42 minutes ago, K9u20 said:

A friend of mine was Albert motoring around and saw this multihull anchored. Anyone know what this is?

23ACEA53-4EB8-4B21-9E37-C5EF964EC976.jpeg

Anyone know why the aft mast is pointing backwards, is this something to do with mast windage when at anchor?

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46 minutes ago, he b gb said:

Anyone know why the aft mast is pointing backwards, is this something to do with mast windage when at anchor?

If you look at the pix on the yachtworld link that seems to be the normal rake for the aft mast, both at anchor and under way sailing.  I am not sure it really makes any difference since the sails are not attached to the masts so any rake would not have any affect on the sail shape.

 

Truth be told I can't figure out the standing rigging.  The aft mast has a couple of back stays but no side stays and only what seems to be a roller furrered sail to stabilize it forward.  The foremast does seem to have side stays.  I know Chris is a great designer but I don't ever recall standing rigging like that.

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I don't think that he b gh is talking about the rake, but the rotation of the aft mast. If you compare the picture above to the link in the previous post, the aft mast seems to be rotated 180° and "pointing aft"...

Weird.

Weird rig anyway...

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2 hours ago, he b gb said:

Anyone know why the aft mast is pointing backwards, is this something to do with mast windage when at anchor?

I think it is just random orientation...

With a bit of wind I imagine it will weathervane into the wind

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27 minutes ago, KC375 said:

I think it is just random orientation...

With a bit of wind I imagine it will weathervane into the wind

I have a Prindle 18-2 and have sailed on a few Corsairs with rotating masts.  None of them rotate 180/360 degrees.  Hard for me to figure out how with two backstays and the forestay that mast could go 180 less yet 360.  Am I missing something?

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14 minutes ago, Tomfl said:

I have a Prindle 18-2 and have sailed on a few Corsairs with rotating masts.  None of them rotate 180/360 degrees.  Hard for me to figure out how with two backstays and the forestay that mast could go 180 less yet 360.  Am I missing something?

The masts don't have mainsails to worry about, and only masthead stays with bearings top and bottom - similar concept to the Randy Smyth rig used on Sizzor and the Eagle 53. The photo shown that its pretty free to rotate... personally, I really can't see enough aerodynamic advantage in a jib only rig to justify the complexity, but am open to being educated.

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52 minutes ago, Tomfl said:

I have a Prindle 18-2 and have sailed on a few Corsairs with rotating masts.  None of them rotate 180/360 degrees.  Hard for me to figure out how with two backstays and the forestay that mast could go 180 less yet 360.  Am I missing something?

I believe the idea is they can fully weathervane to reduce windage ...kind of like taking the main down at night...you don't want it sailing at anchor

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, ALL@SEA said:

The masts don't have mainsails to worry about, and only masthead stays with bearings top and bottom - similar concept to the Randy Smyth rig used on Sizzor and the Eagle 53. The photo shown that its pretty free to rotate... personally, I really can't see enough aerodynamic advantage in a jib only rig to justify the complexity, but am open to being educated.

I agree, as I told my friends Orville and Wilbur "too many moving parts, you will never get that thing off the ground".  While I understand the advantage of a rotating mast on the boats I have sailed on they do add complexity.  But for a cruising boat I am not sure it is worth it.

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14 hours ago, ALL@SEA said:

The masts don't have mainsails to worry about, and only masthead stays with bearings top and bottom - similar concept to the Randy Smyth rig used on Sizzor and the Eagle 53. The photo shown that its pretty free to rotate... personally, I really can't see enough aerodynamic advantage in a jib only rig to justify the complexity, but am open to being educated.

I don’t think the designer claims any aerodynamic advantages to the jib dominated sail plan. I believe the experience of development classes with sail area limits (a cat, moth...) argues that main alone provides the best aerodynamics.

The jib based sail plan is all about safety and ease of use.

Per the designer:

Many sailors agree that the mainsail, particularly the large roached, full battened mainsail combined with the aft-led-shroud, no-backstay-configuration that is used in most catamarans today, is a troublesome sail to hoist, reef/unreef, furl and cover. In addition, mainsails create significant safety liabilities because they cannot be easily or quickly reefed or furled when sailing downwind. In violent squalls this feature has caused more than a few capsizes. The conventional catamaran mainsail can also be somewhat challenging to gybe in a blow....

...

-The soft sails can be reefed and furled on any point of sail and in any wind velocity. Anyone can safely handle this rig.
-Simple and quick self-tacking.
-Super safe and effortless gybing.

The mast foil is not Chris White’s only unusual rig that seeks to ease sail handling. He’s also done freestanding mast bi-plane rig

IMG_9447.900.jpg

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1 hour ago, Tomfl said:

I agree, as I told my friends Orville and Wilbur "too many moving parts, you will never get that thing off the ground".  While I understand the advantage of a rotating mast on the boats I have sailed on they do add complexity.  But for a cruising boat I am not sure it is worth it.

I think the mastfoil Idea was a reaction to the capsize of his previous Designed Atlantic 55/57. He wanted something that can sail fast but also difficult to capsize especially for a regular couple crew or in rough sea.

 

 

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6 hours ago, KC375 said:

I don’t think the designer claims any aerodynamic advantages to the jib dominated sail plan. I believe the experience of development classes with sail area limits (a cat, moth...) argues that main alone provides the best aerodynamics.

The jib based sail plan is all about safety and ease of use.

Per the designer:

Many sailors agree that the mainsail, particularly the large roached, full battened mainsail combined with the aft-led-shroud, no-backstay-configuration that is used in most catamarans today, is a troublesome sail to hoist, reef/unreef, furl and cover. In addition, mainsails create significant safety liabilities because they cannot be easily or quickly reefed or furled when sailing downwind. In violent squalls this feature has caused more than a few capsizes. The conventional catamaran mainsail can also be somewhat challenging to gybe in a blow....

...

-The soft sails can be reefed and furled on any point of sail and in any wind velocity. Anyone can safely handle this rig.
-Simple and quick self-tacking.
-Super safe and effortless gybing.

The mast foil is not Chris White’s only unusual rig that seeks to ease sail handling. He’s also done freestanding mast bi-plane rig

IMG_9447.900.jpg

Yeah, understand the drawbacks of the drawbacks of the conventional three stay rig, appreciate the the benefits of the free-standing biplane rig, and see the ease with which a jib only rig can be handled, but cannot understand the combination of wing masts (mast foils) and a jib only rig. The quotes you present are all logical, but don't refer to the mast foils (my powers of observation are often lacking, but I've read them thrice!).

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1 hour ago, ALL@SEA said:

Yeah, understand the drawbacks of the drawbacks of the conventional three stay rig, appreciate the the benefits of the free-standing biplane rig, and see the ease with which a jib only rig can be handled, but cannot understand the combination of wing masts (mast foils) and a jib only rig. The quotes you present are all logical, but don't refer to the mast foils (my powers of observation are often lacking, but I've read them thrice!).

Follow the link and your questions will be answered...Per the designer:....or at least you will have read the designers point of view. To paraphrase what he says and some of his clients have said...a jib is easier to handle, you need a mast to hoist a jib, might as well make the mast useful - minimum drag with some lift, need to make it fully weathervaning for bad weather or at rest, mastfoil alone works as storm sail...

I have no personal experience to add.

Personally I'm intrigued but I expect given the choice I'd probably go for a more conventional rig, although the bi-plane with freestanding masts does catch my fancy

 

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On 2/12/2020 at 6:54 PM, ALL@SEA said:

Yeah, understand the drawbacks of the drawbacks of the conventional three stay rig, appreciate the the benefits of the free-standing biplane rig, and see the ease with which a jib only rig can be handled, but cannot understand the combination of wing masts (mast foils) and a jib only rig. The quotes you present are all logical, but don't refer to the mast foils (my powers of observation are often lacking, but I've read them thrice!).

The Chris White masts have a flap on the back.  

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22 hours ago, eastern motors said:

The Chris White masts have a flap on the back.  

Looking at the vids posted by kc375 the cat in the first vid has flaps on the mast but the one called Bob in the 2nd vid doesn’t seem to have them? Anyone out there know why?

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The non flap was the iteration, I think he moved to a flapped design later as it gave an increase in performance for not  a lot of cost.

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I was on one of the boats in the pics above. The wing masts don’t seem to freely weathervane, maybe in 25kt+ (which is when you need them to). So you better have thick fenders at the dock. 
 

The wing masts without flaps (or better yet soft flap sails like in Eagle 53) felt inefficient — below pic explains why (thickness to cord ratio on the x axis).

But like the others I’d love to be proven wrong.

C96C956D-7A95-44CD-BE61-790A0750D585.jpeg

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1 hour ago, EarthBM said:

I was on one of the boats in the pics above. The wing masts don’t seem to freely weathervane, maybe in 25kt+ (which is when you need them to). So you better have thick fenders at the dock. ...

When you say the MastFoils "don't seem to freely weathervane" were the control lines engaged or released?

Per the designer:

What happens with the MastFoil when the boat is on the dock?
Because the MastFoil can rotate freely (when the control line is released) the foils will automatically feather themselves into the wind, thus causing negligible drag and lift.

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4 hours ago, KC375 said:

When you say the MastFoils "don't seem to freely weathervane" were the control lines engaged or released?

Released. Maybe some lubrication could help. Or if they use bearings I imagine it’s hard to keep the alignment perfect at such distance with the three stays. Not a deal breaker, but FWIW. 

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12 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

Released. Maybe some lubrication could help. Or if they use bearings I imagine it’s hard to keep the alignment perfect at such distance with the three stays. Not a deal breaker, but FWIW. 

Dang...don’t you just hate it when reality diverges from the sales brochure...

But I bet I could learn to live with it.

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Doing away with the full battened, heavily roached multihull style mainsail has a LOT to recommend it.  For an ocean cruising cat, I'd be all over it.  There's one for sale here in Seattle for a veritable steal (for a newish, custom cat).  The owner built a next-gen 49'er of the same design.  He musta liked it.  Not being in the market for a cruiser, I'm passing on it, but,  periodically I still dream....

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9 hours ago, Veeger said:

Doing away with the full battened, heavily roached multihull style mainsail has a LOT to recommend it.  For an ocean cruising cat, I'd be all over it.  There's one for sale here in Seattle for a veritable steal (for a newish, custom cat).  The owner built a next-gen 49'er of the same design.  He musta liked it.  Not being in the market for a cruiser, I'm passing on it, but,  periodically I still dream....

White has both spent time out there on the ocean and as a designer shown a willingness to try different rigs. I’d love to buy him a drink and get his unvarnished views.

My sense is for racing these alternate rigs may not be the best...but for most of us that’s not the question.

I’m intrigued by not having to deal with a big main and boom etc.

I’m also particularly intrigued by the second hand boats like this. It looks like the market rather than attaching a premium to innovation is applying a discount to unfamiliar...

Selfishly that could be a buying opportunity.

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52 minutes ago, KC375 said:

I’m intrigued by not having to deal with a big main and boom etc.

 

Lagoon has been trying to deal with this issue over the past few years.  Note how their mast has moved aft and really shrunk down the main.  With the advent of Code Zeros and top down asymmetric spinnaker furlers, the main can be easily left furled and downwind trade wind runs can be done pretty easily.  It's a bit less radical than what Chris White is trying but they're all working the same problem.  CW has also drawn a big one with standing backstays that at least eliminates the aft swept shrouds that make anything much less than a close reach problematic for sail chafe on shrouds and spreaders.

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10 minutes ago, Veeger said:

Lagoon has been trying to deal with this issue over the past few years.  Note how their mast has moved aft and really shrunk down the main.  With the advent of Code Zeros and top down asymmetric spinnaker furlers, the main can be easily left furled and downwind trade wind runs can be done pretty easily.  It's a bit less radical than what Chris White is trying but they're all working the same problem.  CW has also drawn a big one with standing backstays that at least eliminates the aft swept shrouds that make anything much less than a close reach problematic for sail chafe on shrouds and spreaders.

It will be interesting to see what the market eventually sorts out.

I have a racing background so my first reference point is what will get me around the buoys the fastest...then I remind myself that’s not really the point, I won’t have an amped up crew of eight who live for pain.

I want something that is fun to sail, can get out of the way of storms, doesn’t need the engine in light air BUT is pleasant to handle solo or with two up and offers enough condo benefits to keep the gang coming back for more fun in the sun.

I find the charter cats too much on the condo end things like Maine Cats (which I love for me) maybe not enough condo...some of these CW boats especially the “orphan” ones might be the right mix and almost in reach.

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Does anyone actually have real polars, or race results, for CW boats? 

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59 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

Does anyone actually have real polars, or race results, for CW boats? 

CW emphasis that his boats are not aimed at racing but rather cruising...but since you asked here you go

Hammerhead 54

Place Vessel Race Year
First Place, corrected (1st to finish by 16 hours) Hecla Single-Handed Long Pac Race 2009
First to Finish Hecla Single-Handed Farallones Race 2009
Second Place, corrected Flying Fish Marblehead to Halifax Race 2009
Second to Finish Hecla Single-Handed Trans-Pac Race 2008
First Place Flying Fish Camden to Castine, ME Race 2008
Second Place Flying Fish Marion to Bermuda Race 2005
First Place Flying Fish Corinthian 200 Race 2004
First Place Flying Fish Camden to Castine, ME Race 2004
Second Place (Missed first by 24 seconds) Flying Fish Yarmouth Cup (Falmouth, ME to Yarmouth, Nova Scotia) 2004
Second Place Flying Fish Monhegan Island Race 2004
Second Place Flying Fish Monhegan Island Race 2003
First Place Flying Fish Exuma, Bahamas Cruising Regatta 2003
First Place Flying Fish New England Multihull Association Offshore Season Trophy 2003

Atlantic 55

Place Vessel Race Year
First Place, Multihull Cruising Division Rocketeer St Maartin Heineken Regatta 2006
First Place Javelin Bitter End Cup, BVI Regatta 2004
First Place, Multihull Division Javelin BVI Spring Regatta 2004
  Synergy New England Solo/Twin, Newport, RI (race report) 2003

Explorer 44

Place Vessel Race Year
Second Place Falcor Round Long Island Race 2006
First Place Caliente Chicago to Mackinac Race 2003

Atlantic 42

Place Vessel Race Year
First Place, Multihull
Second Place Overall
Lightspeed Miami to Nassau 2006
Second Place, Multihull Cruising Division Windsong St Maartin Heineken Regatta 2006
Second Place, Corrected Sunshine Caribbean 1500 Cup (Norfolk, VA to Tortola, BVI) 2005

Voyager 45

Place Vessel Race Year
First Place, Multihulls FreeStyle Stocking Island Race, Georgetown, Exuma Cruisers Regatta 2008
First Place, Multihull,
Second Place, Overall
FreeStyle Staniel Cay, Bahamas, New Year's Day Regatta 2008
First Place, Overall FreeStyle Staniel Cay, Bahamas, New Year's Day Regatta 1999

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I’m not sure how to interpret that.  It comes from the same source as all other performance claims - the designer himself. The usual problem with having a single source of information is selection bias (which race attempts are not included) and context (what was the competition in the Heineken cruiser class in 2006 and those other races).

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3 hours ago, EarthBM said:

I’m not sure how to interpret that.  It comes from the same source as all other performance claims - the designer himself. The usual problem with having a single source of information is selection bias (which race attempts are not included) and context (what was the competition in the Heineken cruiser class in 2006 and those other races).

Fair enough if you want to discount the info from the designer. I have no axe to grind one way or the other. If you are genuinely interested you could put in a bit of effort to triangulate and form your own opinion. Especially if you are going to imply the designers info is unreliable then it would behoove you to offer up some additional insight. I expect you could get info on who else was in the Heineken cruiser class in 2006...along with a number of other of the events...some of which seem big enough name to have the info available and probably at least moderate levels of participation.

Some of the races seem credible, Chicago - Mackinac, Marion - Bermuda, New England Multihull Association Season Trophy.

You could be absolutely right, I'm sure some of the events/classes might be like the most recent Caribean Multihull Challenge...showing up being key and with the largest class having six competitors and two classes with only three you can be confident of a podium finish.

Let us know what you dig up. I'm sure it will be a useful contribution.

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11 hours ago, KC375 said:

Let us know what you dig up. I'm sure it will be a useful contribution.

I am not sure it would be (a useful contribution) and that is not intended as a shot against @EarthBM.  CW boats are more often seen in exotic and remote anchorage around the world than they are seen on the race course.  More often seen with a ma and pa team of owner operators rather than a professional captain and hired guns race crews.  They are the anti-Gunboat and I mean that in a positive way.  The primary purpose of a CW boat is not racing.  Its safe, fast, short-handed offshore cruising capability.

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43 minutes ago, Wess said:

I am not sure it would be (a useful contribution) and that is not intended as a shot against @EarthBM.  CW boats are more often seen in exotic and remote anchorage around the world than they are seen on the race course.  More often seen with a ma and pa team of owner operators rather than a professional captain and hired guns race crews.  They are the anti-Gunboat and I mean that in a positive way.  The primary purpose of a CW boat is not racing.  Its safe, fast, short-handed offshore cruising capability.

As you observe, and as the CW clearly states, he designs for cruising not racing. In that sense race results are meaningless.

EarthBM initially asked for Polars and or race results.

I do think for a cruiser indications of performance (be they polars or race results) are helpful information and provide more precision than simply “performance cat”. That helps the potential buyer assess one of likely multiple criteria they might trade-off in choosing a boat. Certainly one can find lots of data from the designer indicative of performance (sail area to displacement, prismatic coefficient....) but how those things add up to results like Polars or real world boat on boat comparisons – races – are easier to digest and understand.

Personally I’d find Polars more useful than race results. As to using race results I think I’m more interested in the best results rather than averages on the theory that even the best skipper can’t push the boat beyond it’s abilities but many skippers can/frequently achieve a lot less than the boat is capable of. So for me the list of results on the designers site is a helpful input and corroborates my impression that many CW boats tend towards higher performance.

 I find that sort of info particularly helpful when looking a novel rig arrangements. I think I can envisage many of the advantages of the mast foil set up. I find it harder to envisage how it would really perform.

Of course multiple test sails in varying conditions would really be best...(I wish it was easier to find CW products in charter, the ones I’ve found are traditional rigs...but then that goes back to the original design brief is not for charter...)

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There is a lot to read to totally understand the mastfoil concept and the reasoning for the trailing foil,.
https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/understanding-wing-technology.34697/

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/mastfoil-opinions.40487/

There is a considerable difference in the way Chris White's foil mast are constructed and those of the new Eagle wingsail

Eagle's leading edge foil is a pure hollow cored D-shaped carbon arrangement with plates on the top and bottom so it can rotate almost friction free a full 360 degrees.

Chris's foil shaped mast is,.... The patented MastFoils are carbon tubes inside a non-loadbearing ¼/6mm-wall-thickness foam/carbon airfoil, supported by bushings. In the absence of an autoclave, the carbon spars are made with wet laminate.
https://www.proboat.com/2019/07/catching-up-with-chris-white/
This would account for the extra friction in his design

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I've found that in open ocean, polars can be misleading. More wind, the more waves. Depends on point of sail.

I prefer sailing in big seas with the wind and waves slightly aft but not downwind :D

Did any of you buy Agility? I think she's under contract.

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On 2/19/2020 at 1:53 PM, KC375 said:

CW emphasis that his boats are not aimed at racing but rather cruising...but since you asked here you go

Hammerhead 54

Place Vessel Race Year
First Place, corrected (1st to finish by 16 hours) Hecla Single-Handed Long Pac Race 2009
First to Finish Hecla Single-Handed Farallones Race 2009
Second Place, corrected Flying Fish Marblehead to Halifax Race 2009
Second to Finish Hecla Single-Handed Trans-Pac Race 2008
First Place Flying Fish Camden to Castine, ME Race 2008
Second Place Flying Fish Marion to Bermuda Race 2005
First Place Flying Fish Corinthian 200 Race 2004
First Place Flying Fish Camden to Castine, ME Race 2004
Second Place (Missed first by 24 seconds) Flying Fish Yarmouth Cup (Falmouth, ME to Yarmouth, Nova Scotia) 2004
Second Place Flying Fish Monhegan Island Race 2004
Second Place Flying Fish Monhegan Island Race 2003
First Place Flying Fish Exuma, Bahamas Cruising Regatta 2003
First Place Flying Fish New England Multihull Association Offshore Season Trophy 2003

Atlantic 55

Place Vessel Race Year
First Place, Multihull Cruising Division Rocketeer St Maartin Heineken Regatta 2006
First Place Javelin Bitter End Cup, BVI Regatta 2004
First Place, Multihull Division Javelin BVI Spring Regatta 2004
  Synergy New England Solo/Twin, Newport, RI (race report) 2003

Explorer 44

Place Vessel Race Year
Second Place Falcor Round Long Island Race 2006
First Place Caliente Chicago to Mackinac Race 2003

Atlantic 42

Place Vessel Race Year
First Place, Multihull
Second Place Overall
Lightspeed Miami to Nassau 2006
Second Place, Multihull Cruising Division Windsong St Maartin Heineken Regatta 2006
Second Place, Corrected Sunshine Caribbean 1500 Cup (Norfolk, VA to Tortola, BVI) 2005

Voyager 45

Place Vessel Race Year
First Place, Multihulls FreeStyle Stocking Island Race, Georgetown, Exuma Cruisers Regatta 2008
First Place, Multihull,
Second Place, Overall
FreeStyle Staniel Cay, Bahamas, New Year's Day Regatta 2008
First Place, Overall FreeStyle Staniel Cay, Bahamas, New Year's Day Regatta 1999

 

On 2/19/2020 at 2:36 PM, EarthBM said:

I’m not sure how to interpret that.  It comes from the same source as all other performance claims - the designer himself. The usual problem with having a single source of information is selection bias (which race attempts are not included) and context (what was the competition in the Heineken cruiser class in 2006 and those other races).

I'll add to the list:

Voyager 48

1st place multihulls     Presto     Cape Charles Cup      Day 1 2016

1st Place multihulls     Presto     Cape Charles Cup     Day 2 2016

1st Place multihulls     Presto     Southern Bay Race Week  Race 1    2017

2nd place multihulls    Presto     Southern Bay Race Week Race 2     2017

1st place multihulls     Presto     Cape Charles Cup      Day 2 2017   (Day 1 cancelled)

Don't take my word for it. You can look it up online.

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