aussieinlondon

what is the holy grail older yacht for handicap wins

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are there any older designs that now will rate extremely well for handicap wins

is it smaller yacht or bigger yachts that this would apply for ? 

we have seen that with cookson 50s  but the are newer 

i was thinking about 1980s/ 1990s yachts ..

how would rothmans go on handicap ? 

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Rothmans would be a dog. Anything IOR will be a dog if it’s bigger than a half tonner. Farr 45 or Farr 52 would be your answer

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I'm assuming you are talking IRC.

Under 40 foot

Farr 1020/MRX design - early 80s

Farr 1104 / Red Lion One Ton versions 75-77

Stewart 34 50s design.

 

Over 40 foot

The TP 52 and variants are just too much faster.

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6 hours ago, aussieinlondon said:

are there any older designs that now will rate extremely well for handicap wins

is it smaller yacht or bigger yachts that this would apply for ? 

we have seen that with cookson 50s  but the are newer 

i was thinking about 1980s/ 1990s yachts ..

how would rothmans go on handicap ? 

Under IRC it comes down to the type of racing, the fleet mix and weather windows.  As Jono says, the lightweight stripped out TP52 and similar types are currently hard to beat as they get up and plane reaching and downwind in around 12 knots of breeze and outsail their TCF by a big margin.  Upwind in breeze they are fast too as they are relatively stiff.  ORCi deltas are a little smaller as it has two TCFs - one for W/L and one for offshore.  The offshore TCF reflects the TP52 performance envelope a little better than IRC's single TCF does.

Any old-style displacement boat will struggle against these types in any good amount of breeze in an offshore course.  In W/L short courses the delta is smaller, especially in light-medium airs as older style displacement boats sailing with Sym spinnakers sail shorter distances downwind.  

Typically old-style IOR boats are penalised as they are less likely to plane and surf - think pintail IOR Half Tonners etc.  More pronounced at small sizes and fir earlier generation IOR boats.  That said, IRC handicaps relatively homogeneous fleets of these types really well.

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Shane Kearns S & S 34 Azzura has won a couple of Southport races and podium placed in a Syd- Hobart. Originally launched in the 70s. 

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4 minutes ago, SPORTSCAR said:

Shane Kearns S & S 34 Azzura has won a couple of Southport races and podium placed in a Syd- Hobart. Originally launched in the 70s. 

A very well set up and sailed boat (I know the team well) but blown home in every case.

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32 minutes ago, DickDastardly said:

A very well set up and sailed boat (I know the team well) but blown home in every case.

yup -- pretty much hit the (low) handicap corner for the offshore fleet on the East Coast of Oz, then hope the weather complies. We'll do alright if its on the snotter and heavy, when the TP's might have to back off a bit. But then so would any well-sailed IOR boat.

 

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3 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

Shane Kearns S & S 34 Azzura has won a couple of Southport races and podium placed in a Syd- Hobart. Originally launched in the 70s. 

Beat me to it. She has to be up there in terms of an older design, punching well above her weight!

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and for all times it gets "blown home" there are just as many (or more) times it gets left becalmed.

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J/44 is a consistent performer under a lot of rules. 

If you wanted to go any bigger, you’ll get into the rating bands of the 52s and you just can’t compete with them. 

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Cookson 12m and the Farr 39s in general do pretty well all around for being 20+ years old design.

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I reckon dr who the Davidson 51 would have to be a contender here with a little upgrade 

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5 hours ago, it happens said:

I reckon dr who the Davidson 51 would have to be a contender here with a little upgrade 

Way  nicer than any of the new 50ish boats around,  but would not see which way they went upwind or down.  And sadly the rating difference won't make up for this.

The only way she could beat the modern boat on handicap to get a very light reach and go all the right ways.

Some of the older boats can hold their own on a hard 25-30+ slog to windward but the best bet is to get the fastest slow boat (probably less than 40 feet) and win the "blow home"races.  For every 3 races where it shuts down just as the maxis or TPs get there you will get one that builds for the back markers & they have spent a lot less than a third of the money.

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55 minutes ago, TUBBY said:

Way  nicer than any of the new 50ish boats around,  but would not see which way they went upwind or down.  And sadly the rating difference won't make up for this.

The only way she could beat the modern boat on handicap to get a very light reach and go all the right ways.

Some of the older boats can hold their own on a hard 25-30+ slog to windward but the best bet is to get the fastest slow boat (probably less than 40 feet) and win the "blow home"races.  For every 3 races where it shuts down just as the maxis or TPs get there you will get one that builds for the back markers & they have spent a lot less than a third of the money.

Probably not the case with the aforementioned S& S 34. What he has spent on that project by his own admission  would just about have funded a respectable TP52 program. 

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3 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

Probably not the case with the aforementioned S& S 34. What he has spent on that project by his own admission  would just about have funded a respectable TP52 program. 

In this article from Dec 2015 he mentions spending $300k on the rebuild...

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/sailing/sydney-to-hobart-one-year-after-hasty-return-quickpoint-azzurro-is-primed-for-the-challenge-20151226-glv3z5.html

 

 

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Lets call that one an outlier.

much as I love old S&S's & admire this program, I will admit she is a little overcapitalised.  But I don't think resale is high on the priority list.

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18 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

Probably not the case with the aforementioned S& S 34. What he has spent on that project by his own admission  would just about have funded a respectable TP52 program. 

started, but I don't know about 'funded on an ongoing basis'

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A 15 year old J/133 managed to score two Divisional wins (IRC Div 5 and ORCi Div 4) and top ten places overall under IRC (9th) and ORCi (10th) in the 2019 Sydney to Hobart.

Not a bad effort to be the first boat on corrected time with a fully fitted timber interior including an electric toilet (WITH a door), a dining table, a hot shower and a water-maker.

A sister J/133 had earlier scored a top 5 place under IRC in a previous Fastnet.

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On 2/13/2020 at 10:50 AM, DickDastardly said:

Under IRC it comes down to the type of racing, the fleet mix and weather windows.  As Jono says, the lightweight stripped out TP52 and similar types are currently hard to beat as they get up and plane reaching and downwind in around 12 knots of breeze and outsail their TCF by a big margin.  Upwind in breeze they are fast too as they are relatively stiff.  ORCi deltas are a little smaller as it has two TCFs - one for W/L and one for offshore.  The offshore TCF reflects the TP52 performance envelope a little better than IRC's single TCF does.

Any old-style displacement boat will struggle against these types in any good amount of breeze in an offshore course.  In W/L short courses the delta is smaller, especially in light-medium airs as older style displacement boats sailing with Sym spinnakers sail shorter distances downwind.  

Typically old-style IOR boats are penalised as they are less likely to plane and surf - think pintail IOR Half Tonners etc.  More pronounced at small sizes and fir earlier generation IOR boats.  That said, IRC handicaps relatively homogeneous fleets of these types really well.

Agree with your comments on the TP52s on IRC and ORCi. The sooner CYCA get rid of IRC and Use ORCi the better for the fleet handicaps in Aus

The old IOR one tonner Wild Rose (Far 43) appeared to do well both Offshore and in regatta racing with Roger Hickman at the helm a crew of consistent regular crew

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2 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

 

Not a bad effort to be the first boat on corrected time with a fully fitted timber interior including an electric toilet (WITH a door), a dining table, a hot shower and a water-maker.

 

Does that mean the wife comes along? If so what's the ratings hit? 

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2 hours ago, Chucky said:

Agree with your comments on the TP52s on IRC and ORCi. The sooner CYCA get rid of IRC and Use ORCi the better for the fleet handicaps in Aus

The old IOR one tonner Wild Rose (Far 43) appeared to do well both Offshore and in regatta racing with Roger Hickman at the helm a crew of consistent regular crew

Wild Rose - ex Wild Oats - rated way above the one tonners

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And was well optimised,  and just happened to be sailed by one of the best offshore sailors we have been graced with.

Slightly biased opinion of someone who call Hicko a mate for decades!

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2 hours ago, Chucky said:

Agree with your comments on the TP52s on IRC and ORCi. The sooner CYCA get rid of IRC and Use ORCi the better for the fleet handicaps in Aus

The old IOR one tonner Wild Rose (Far 43) appeared to do well both Offshore and in regatta racing with Roger Hickman at the helm a crew of consistent regular crew

To be honest I don't believe switching to ORCi would make any difference.  ORCi racing uses a single TCF as does IRC and in most cases, race results scored under the two systems are pretty much identical.  some slight nuance maybe when the offshore vs inshore ORCi TCF is used, but it's marginal IMHO.

The real issue is mixed fleets - scoring boats with widely differing performance profiles using a single number handicap.   Much of the time the weather and course will determine which type of boat wins and the skill factor determines which actual boat.

As to Hicko's success with Wild Rose - there's no doubt he optimised and sailed it really well, but his success with that boat pretty much predates the rise of the TP52 as an IRC Killer

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5 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

A 15 year old J/133 managed to score two Divisional wins (IRC Div 5 and ORCi Div 4) and top ten places overall under IRC (9th) and ORCi (10th) in the 2019 Sydney to Hobart.

Not a bad effort to be the first boat on corrected time with a fully fitted timber interior including an electric toilet (WITH a door), a dining table, a hot shower and a water-maker.

A sister J/133 had earlier scored a top 5 place under IRC in a previous Fastnet.

I was amazed at how fast that thing was going, and how low it rates.  Perhaps the design is a bit of an IRC bandit at present given that other result you wrote of.  A 43 footer rating less than a Cookson 12 ... Que?

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But does it fit the OP's criteria?

 

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Ker 50, if not up against the TP’s but with actual ocean crossing ability and a real interior. Not too many out there (I think they built 3).

The J/120 (small J/133) has done well offshore over the years and would be a good bit cheaper to run with less draft. 

Cal 40 is hard to beat in the old slower boat category.

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21 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

I was amazed at how fast that thing was going, and how low it rates.  Perhaps the design is a bit of an IRC bandit at present given that other result you wrote of.  A 43 footer rating less than a Cookson 12 ... Que?

Read the report on the Doyle’s site for a bit of an insight into that. Same rating as the Fastnet J/133, slightly different sail configurations. Meticulously prepared.

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1 hour ago, SPORTSCAR said:

Read the report on the Doyle’s site for a bit of an insight into that. Same rating as the Fastnet J/133, slightly different sail configurations. Meticulously prepared.

I did, that's clearly a well-sorted program.  I'd also previously checked out the other J/133s around the world rated on ORCi and IRC.  Great quality program aside, that design really does look a bit of a handicap bandit at present.  

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On 2/15/2020 at 1:37 PM, The Dark Knight said:

Dudes gotta be talking shit, or he's been cucked.

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2 hours ago, darth reapius said:

Dudes gotta be talking shit, or he's been cucked.

Nope, that's legit. Special boat. All done right, not done to re-sell. Owner is a top bloke too.

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3 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

I did, that's clearly a well-sorted program.  I'd also previously checked out the other J/133s around the world rated on ORCi and IRC.  Great quality program aside, that design really does look a bit of a handicap bandit at present.  

Result wasn't a gift. Took a lot of effort by a top program and was sailed pretty well. Sister J/133 Euphoria was a long way behind in the Hobart and Southport.

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On 2/13/2020 at 2:44 PM, jackolantern said:

J/44 is a consistent performer under a lot of rules. 

If you wanted to go any bigger, you’ll get into the rating bands of the 52s and you just can’t compete with them. 

do j boats have the most confusing range of any yacht producer ? 

 

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Excluding TP's etc....

 

Take a 40-45ft IOR boat that has a bit wider bum.

Fill in the stern bumps.

Add a new taller rig with swept spreaders and non-overlapping headsails.

Add a new deeper and lighter keel so you will have big static overhangs.

Keep the age factor

 

Will cost you a fortune but you get a 40ft boat that beats Mumm 36's to windward, is only slightly slower in a blow downhill but rates the same!!

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25 minutes ago, aussieinlondon said:

do j boats have the most confusing range of any yacht producer ? 

 

no, they've just been using the same naming system for a long time and switched from imperial to metric some time in the 90s (with the 105?)

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On 2/17/2020 at 3:45 PM, DickDastardly said:

I was amazed at how fast that thing was going, and how low it rates.  Perhaps the design is a bit of an IRC bandit at present given that other result you wrote of.  A 43 footer rating less than a Cookson 12 ... Que?

DD I know that you know the Cookson 12's 'cos you were very informative when I was looking to optimize the "crew selection platform" C12 that was the original Voodoo before we went to the RP 63....but for comparison, I sailed and prepared the J133 (previously Moonspinner, now Patriot) with its previous owner and was involved in convincing the current owner (Recliner) of the boats merits....having seriously sailed both I declared the J133 to be a "Wolf in sheeps clothing". That descriptor is now its official tagline on the t-shirt. The boat does rate extremely well given the right conditions (which the hobart supplied) and it is meticulously prepared and well sailed. So the combo takes a bit of beating!

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10 hours ago, Couta said:

DD I know that you know the Cookson 12's 'cos you were very informative when I was looking to optimize the "crew selection platform" C12 that was the original Voodoo before we went to the RP 63....but for comparison, I sailed and prepared the J133 (previously Moonspinner, now Patriot) with its previous owner and was involved in convincing the current owner (Recliner) of the boats merits....having seriously sailed both I declared the J133 to be a "Wolf in sheeps clothing". That descriptor is now its official tagline on the t-shirt. The boat does rate extremely well given the right conditions (which the hobart supplied) and it is meticulously prepared and well sailed. So the combo takes a bit of beating!

Yep, what I guessed!  Very impressive boat and team by the look of things.  That said, gotta wonder if IRC will come after it at some point to address the bandit handicap.  Maybe not as there don't seem to be too many of them racing seriously.

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15 hours ago, aussieinlondon said:

do j boats have the most confusing range of any yacht producer ? 

 

Only if you’re a simpleton

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52 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

Cookson 50 fixed keel being promoted as very good on handicap, 23 points below the canting versions and says often beats them over the line? How often is "OFTEN" ???

https://www.sail-world.com/news/226667/Its-About-Time-to-race-in-comfort

 

 

Interested that you classify this boat as 'OLD' and to beat a canting version across the line may only be in light winds with no advantage with a canter. The C50 from Geelong in the recent FOS series did not show any pace at all in the lights winds. As for being good on handicap, its a hard ask to try and beat the well sailed TP52's on IRC with this boat as seen from recent race results including the current and previous owner. The add mentions all the comforts but if you are buying a race boat like this and at that price you would want to have some chance of a handicap win or just go and buy a Beneslow.

With a fixed keel installed later in its life not designed and built by the original builder and designer I believe 

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2 hours ago, Chucky said:

Interested that you classify this boat as 'OLD' and to beat a canting version across the line may only be in light winds with no advantage with a canter. The C50 from Geelong in the recent FOS series did not show any pace at all in the lights winds. As for being good on handicap, its a hard ask to try and beat the well sailed TP52's on IRC with this boat as seen from recent race results including the current and previous owner. The add mentions all the comforts but if you are buying a race boat like this and at that price you would want to have some chance of a handicap win or just go and buy a Beneslow.

With a fixed keel installed later in its life not designed and built by the original builder and designer I believe 

The fixed keel was designed by Farr

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3 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

The fixed keel was designed by Farr

Okay thanks for the clarification. Nice boat and looks like it is kept in excellent condition so hope it goers to a new owner who will look after her. I remember the boat when it turned up at our club new as Living Doll as the original canter

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Downwind offshore under Orr it’s hard to beat a well sailed j/125. Look at last year’s Transpac, they did get lucky on the day they started but on that said day the sc50 started I think all of the 125 beat the sc50 boat for boat and the sc50 rate faster. 

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13 hours ago, Chucky said:

Okay thanks for the clarification. Nice boat and looks like it is kept in excellent condition so hope it goers to a new owner who will look after her. I remember the boat when it turned up at our club new as Living Doll as the original canter

Fastidiously maintained with excellent sails.  

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On 2/19/2020 at 4:45 PM, DickDastardly said:

 Fastidiously maintained with excellent sails.  

But basically a cookson 49 because it's fixed keel

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There are plenty of older designs that will ‘do well’ on IRC if you tip enough money in and sail it well but if you want to actually win a major offshore race you need a optimised TP bristling with paid pro crew. The days of a well sailed Corinthian boat winning the Hobart are gone for ever and that is why the sport is now completely fucked. 

It is time to throw the TP’s and canters out. 

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On 3/8/2020 at 7:07 AM, LB 15 said:

There are plenty of older designs that will ‘do well’ on IRC if you tip enough money in and sail it well but if you want to actually win a major offshore race you need a optimised TP bristling with paid pro crew. The days of a well sailed Corinthian boat winning the Hobart are gone for ever and that is why the sport is now completely fucked. 

It is time to throw the TP’s and canters out. 

I think the problem is pros more than boat type. Corinthian results should be given greater prominence.

If you want to see pros, watch the AC or VOR.

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58 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

I think the problem is pros more than boat type. Corinthian results should be given greater prominence.

If you want to see pros, watch the AC or VOR.

Agree that corinthians should get more wraps - but the proliferation of TP52 types over recent years has put big strain on handicap systems regardless.  Single number handicapping is always a compromise where the weather vs course often dictates outcomes more than skill but the widening of deltas in performance profiles between modern raceboats, cruiser racers and old-style race boats has made it far more pronounced an effect than "back in the day" where the performance profiles of grand prix race boats and cruiser-racers were closer.  No easy answer, unfortunately - except maybe more divisional-based racing and less focus on overall winners.

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38 minutes ago, DickDastardly said:

Agree that corinthians should get more wraps - but the proliferation of TP52 types over recent years has put big strain on handicap systems regardless.  Single number handicapping is always a compromise where the weather vs course often dictates outcomes more than skill but the widening of deltas in performance profiles between modern raceboats, cruiser racers and old-style race boats has made it far more pronounced an effect than "back in the day" where the performance profiles of grand prix race boats and cruiser-racers were closer.  No easy answer, unfortunately - except maybe more divisional-based racing and less focus on overall winners.

Yep - the TP's certainly seem to have found a niche in IRC that isn't currently addressed.effectively by the handicap.  I find it interesting that 30-foot sporties were so hard-hit by IRC they didn't bother in the end.. but the TP's are reaching similar polar shapes and performance differences, with no penalty

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2 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

Yep - the TP's certainly seem to have found a niche in IRC that isn't currently addressed.effectively by the handicap.  I find it interesting that 30-foot sporties were so hard-hit by IRC they didn't bother in the end.. but the TP's are reaching similar polar shapes and performance differences, with no penalty

Yeah, strange that.  Possibly just cos TPs and larger can get up and plane downwind and reaching in around 12kts TWS they can outsail their single number rating easily in more conditions than a 30 footer which probably doesn't get up and plane until a much higher wind speed.

 

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On 2/20/2020 at 2:06 AM, jackolantern said:

Never

Beat both C50 canters over the line in last S2H

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I hate to say it, I can't see a canting C50 beating the newer TPs to Hobart unless we get one of THOSE ones, upwind in solid conditions (canted) for two days ..... at that point the TPs will be very wet, unpleasant and breaking things with regularity.  Other than that?  I don't think so.

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On 3/8/2020 at 6:07 AM, LB 15 said:

There are plenty of older designs that will ‘do well’ on IRC if you tip enough money in and sail it well but if you want to actually win a major offshore race you need a optimised TP bristling with paid pro crew. The days of a well sailed Corinthian boat winning the Hobart are gone for ever and that is why the sport is now completely fucked. 

It is time to throw the TP’s and canters out. 

I tend to agree with this, grass root racing may well improve dramatically.

Trouble will be the money guys will then dump a mil into some old shitter and still make it go twice as fast as original.

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19 hours ago, DuncanR said:

I hate to say it, I can't see a canting C50 beating the newer TPs to Hobart unless we get one of THOSE ones, upwind in solid conditions (canted) for two days ..... at that point the TPs will be very wet, unpleasant and breaking things with regularity.  Other than that?  I don't think so.

Climate change. It is now a moderate down wind race. There are people who have now done the last 5 races and think the waters east of Bass Strait is a lovely place to go yachting.

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Yep,  been there for all of those in DRY gear.

Pity about some of the previous 18 though!

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Indeed. Kids today hey.

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On 3/7/2020 at 9:07 PM, LB 15 said:

There are plenty of older designs that will ‘do well’ on IRC if you tip enough money in and sail it well but if you want to actually win a major offshore race you need a optimised TP bristling with paid pro crew. The days of a well sailed Corinthian boat winning the Hobart are gone for ever and that is why the sport is now completely fucked. 

It is time to throw the TP’s and canters out. 

In IRC the biggest boats win offshore unless there is some dead calm at some point. IMHO If you aren't a millionaire instead of a knackered 50 footer the best option is a Jpk to win your class and possibly overall is the conditions favour your class (happened twice during the fastnet).

In 2005 Iromiguy a Nicholson 33 won the fastnet, they were a really good boat who was consistently winning its class (sadly for me as I was in their class back then...) and the big boys got hit by some really lightwind. When they are immobile and the clock start ticking, there is nothing they can do. It could possibly happen again, so here you go if you are on a budget get a Nicholson 33 and take part every year until the racing gods are with you.

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2005 was 15 years ago. TP52’s are entirely different beasts now to then. And yes it is conceivable that a 4kt shitbox like a Nic33 could win due to some freakish weather event but we are talking about fair competition. 

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an 8mR. our 1930 boat rates .907 under IRC, wich is pretty decent for 48 ft boat. especially for upwind downwind racing

 

 

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How about "Eun Na Mara".... the William Fife designed yacht launched around 1907? 

What ever happened to her... she was restored and won Hamilton Island Race week overall and the Australian IRC championships circa 2001 then disappeared.

Did the Oatley's buy it and have it destroyed so it couldn't win again :P

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21 minutes ago, psyclone said:

How about "Eun Na Mara".... the William Fife designed yacht launched around 1907? 

What ever happened to her... she was restored and won Hamilton Island Race week overall and the Australian IRC championships circa 2001 then disappeared.

Did the Oatley's buy it and have it destroyed so it couldn't win again :P

South of Perth Yacht Club 

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On 3/9/2020 at 3:15 PM, DickDastardly said:

Yeah, strange that.  Possibly just cos TPs and larger can get up and plane downwind and reaching in around 12kts TWS they can outsail their single number rating easily in more conditions than a 30 footer which probably doesn't get up and plane until a much higher wind speed.

 

I think IRC deliberately treats light wt differently above about 45ft. Kind of makes sense, protect the exiting herd of cruiser races in their divisions, few of which are over 45ft, but suck up to the  big budget programs who would go elsewhere if they did not have an advantage. Its all about prestige. 

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On 3/19/2020 at 3:31 PM, LB 15 said:

Climate change. It is now a moderate down wind race. There are people who have now done the last 5 races and think the waters east of Bass Strait is a lovely place to go yachting.

Check out the interview with Clouds in the latest Seahorse.

Makes the same observation about recent years

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