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Perfect £150k single/double handed boat

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Cutting across lots of threads but...  

what would you buy if you wanted a modern fast boat if you had £150k to spend. 

For single or double handed racing but also has some accommodation for cruising-ish and maybe now and again round the cans with crew. 

Would it be a cat, tri or monohull. 

Pogo 30

dehler 30 OD

sunfast 3300

jpk1030

dragonfly 25

seacart 30

all seem to fit the bill. What cats are there? I love multihulls. Upwind speed and power reaching at nearly twice what a mono could do. But the new breed of 30 footers are putting monohulls back in the limelight. 

What would you get and why??

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You won't get a Dehler 30 OD, Sun Fast 3300 or JPK 1030 for £150k by the time they are delivered, equipped (sails, electronics safety gear), commissioned, launched - great boats though they all are, they are too new to be avialable on the used market yet. You will be able to get the following competent and proven used monos with sport performance for the budget - Sun Fast 3200 & 3600, JPK 1010, J105. I don't muh about the Cat market in this area, but there are more racimg opportunities with the monos.

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Depends on location. I’m guessing Europe from the boat list. Also you didn’t specify how much offshore versus inshore racing. Definitely factors that have affected my choice of boat for the same purpose and price range. 

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Used jpk 1010....3200 r2 very cool. I think the trans Quadra winning bepox still for sale if u fancy a reaching machine. A tarted up a31 with twin rudders bulb keel carbon mast all new sail and electronics.  There is a sunfast 3600 available from Adrianl a user on here that is pretty much the most boat u can buy for that money if you are in the states. 

If u r you young and strong yes a used class 40. But you better also be a darn good sailor. And have another 50k over next 2 years.

Dragonfly and Seacart.....? It would be a monohull.

 

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As a Waarschip owner, I have to drag you here. Sorry.

A bit smaller (surely more space than a Dragonfly), Waarschip 27 CR. Surely a small 2-handed weapon to tow-away.

Waarschip-27-CR-voor-1.jpg

 

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More seriously in this order:

J/88

Finnflyer 34 GT if you can blackmail the owner to give it away.

Archambault 31 or even A35, but mind you: OEM is gone. 

Dehler 34 (new versions) also already becoming available in this price range, more comfy and beamy in the back.

HP 1030 if you can find one.

JPK 9.60 maybe?

 

 

 

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Question to OP - Why pick a price point that has less relevance than ever. There are way too many boats that come in for less than 50k that are capable of doing everything you want.

 

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Some interesting boats being suggested. I guess I picked 150k as that was around where I was thinking the new breed of thirty footers were without taxes. 

Agree that there are older boats with some investment can make a great choice.

I do like the look of the Dehler 30od. Will have to see where they are priced in a couple of years when they start showing up on the second hand market. I suspect they will be pretty rare like pogo30’s. 

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3 hours ago, Black Jack said:

Question to OP - Why pick a price point that has less relevance than ever. There are way too many boats that come in for less than 50k that are capable of doing everything you want.

 

I know this is not for everyone. Seeing Gordie Nash's boat Arcadia at the CYC midwinters last week reminded me that we make get a fast unique boat that runs far below the 150K. He did his work mostly himself. An old Santana 27  rated at PHRF 211...

santana_27_photo.jpg

Now a bit more modern - she now rates a quick 123. :o

Arcadia-2008-TBF.jpg

http://www.norcalsailing.com/entries/2011/05/10/arcadia-files.html

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While I haven't sailed one, if I were looking to spend around $150k I would go pick up an L30. https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2018/shipman-l30-one-design-3497226/

I have a preference for self-sufficiency (no yards for lifts or cranes), and to be able to travel with the boat to go to different events and still knock out an ocean passage here and there in my life which adds a beam restriction for roads. 

 

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If you want maximum performance and ”bang for the buck” from a solo/double hand perspective i would recommend a Fareast 31 R GRP (ie not the carbon one). Fully equipped with sails, instruments, AP and trailer for less than 150k for a brand new boat. Faster than most 45-50 footers, easy to sail singlehanded. Super happy with my boat! Not for cruising though! Two births could be installed but it is practically just an empty shell inside.

When I shifted from an 1986 36 foot boat i wanted something new. I looked into trimarans but there were so few racing where i live so i ended up with a really fast keelboat i stead that could fit for both single/double handed as well as full crew. The bulb on this is huge (1,2 tons) which means you trade off some ”sporty” feel in the heavy breeze but on the other hand you have excellent righting moment sailing solo or double handed.

6AC8E9E8-B338-480D-B817-65D39FB1A327.jpeg

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52D71413-5245-433C-8A54-8C2BE2E3C41B.jpeg

542CD77F-06FF-41FD-B677-0D61A06F82EC.jpeg

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On 2/21/2020 at 8:45 PM, sealion said:

Agree that there are older boats with some investment can make a great choice.

Just make sure you buy something where the previous owner has put in the investment rather than doing it yourself.

Hard to beat a <£50k J/105 that has been sorted properly by someone else for bang for buck. Good spec J/88s also seem surprisingly cheap secondhand in the UK?

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6 hours ago, Snowden said:

Just make sure you buy something where the previous owner has put in the investment rather than doing it yourself.

Hard to beat a <£50k J/105 that has been sorted properly by someone else for bang for buck. Good spec J/88s also seem surprisingly cheap secondhand in the UK?

Lots of J88s going cheap in the UK, I’m gonna be entering some solo and double handed sailing in a J88 in the UK this year. Specs of the boats vary slightly but one has an extra battery as well as a furling headstay, the others are all on foils. The J105 continues to be an exceptional offshore short handed boat, the 2 handed class in the Fastnet was won by one not long ago

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On 2/24/2020 at 9:35 AM, JL92S said:

Lots of J88s going cheap in the UK, I’m gonna be entering some solo and double handed sailing in a J88 in the UK this year. Specs of the boats vary slightly but one has an extra battery as well as a furling headstay, the others are all on foils. The J105 continues to be an exceptional offshore short handed boat, the 2 handed class in the Fastnet was won by one not long ago

Wish they made a J88 with an option for a lifting keel...  I feel like the boat could have built a bigger following. They are certainly fun to sail and a lot packed into a small package. 

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1 hour ago, JoelGreatLakes said:

Wish they made a J88 with an option for a lifting keel...  I feel like the boat could have built a bigger following. They are certainly fun to sail and a lot packed into a small package. 

J boats would have sold more than 1,000 boats if they marketed FT10 as J/101.

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2 hours ago, JoelGreatLakes said:

Wish they made a J88 with an option for a lifting keel...  I feel like the boat could have built a bigger following. They are certainly fun to sail and a lot packed into a small package. 

It would have raised the price of an already very expensive 29 footer from new. In the UK it’s too small to be a big boat but too big to be a small boat (2 jibs and 3 kites, all 3Di upwind sails), not racy enough to make the hardcore racers happy and not comfy enough to make the furniture racers happy. Having said all that it’s great fun to race, that’s the stupid thing!

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12 hours ago, JL92S said:

It would have raised the price of an already very expensive 29 footer from new. In the UK it’s too small to be a big boat but too big to be a small boat (2 jibs and 3 kites, all 3Di upwind sails), not racy enough to make the hardcore racers happy and not comfy enough to make the furniture racers happy. Having said all that it’s great fun to race, that’s the stupid thing!

In the UK big boats have to go offshore, otherwise you are committed to bashing around the Solent every weekend, which soon gets boring. If you want to spend £100k on an inshore toy, you might as well spend a bit more and go HP30.

I would consider buying a detuned furniture version rating <1.020, OSR 2, proper rudder (not transom hung) for a stock-mounted pilot ram and alu mast to keep costs down. That would be a fun offshore 1H/2H boat.

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6 hours ago, Snowden said:

In the UK big boats have to go offshore, otherwise you are committed to bashing around the Solent every weekend, which soon gets boring. If you want to spend £100k on an inshore toy, you might as well spend a bit more and go HP30.

I would consider buying a detuned furniture version rating <1.020, OSR 2, proper rudder (not transom hung) for a stock-mounted pilot ram and alu mast to keep costs down. That would be a fun offshore 1H/2H boat.

And we arrive back at the J105!

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the Seacart 30 needs modification to deck layout to become shorthanded capable (yep done that) plus a top end pilot (i'm running B&G H5000)

- but it is a fantastic weapon 

where on the planet are you based??
In the UK we have a very active 2H fleet (RORC) and Solo fleet (SORC) with lots of crossover and lots of sailors open to share and assist

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On 2/25/2020 at 1:30 PM, JoelGreatLakes said:

Wish they made a J88 with an option for a lifting keel...  I feel like the boat could have built a bigger following. They are certainly fun to sail and a lot packed into a small package. 

Andrews 28 is this and more. 

Greg

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On 2/22/2020 at 6:37 PM, JoelGreatLakes said:

While I haven't sailed one, if I were looking to spend around $150k

 

OP said £150K. More like US$200K.

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So after taking part in an Olympic mixed doubles class training event over the weekend in the J88 I can tell you they’re still a handful in big waves and big breeze! Training along side 2 Sunfast 3600s a Sunfast 3200 and First 40.7 some things became clear. A few people envied they lower loads on our boat, they however did not envy us being in a 2.3T boat in a big wind over tide! The 2 3600s has about a 0.6 - 0.7kt advantage over us on the beats. The 3200 we could match upwind but pull away from downwind. It is unknown wether the Olympic equipment will include an autopilot in which case the J88 would be an exhausting boat to race hard. This could make it a more challenging boat for sailors. 

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PHRF ratings seem to stay the same for full crew vs single/double-handed. I believe PHRF ratings are based on the assumption of 500+ lbs of crew weight on the rail upwind.

Is it favorable for shorthanded sailing, to pick a skinny, lighter boat with a moderately deep heavy keel (modified hobie 33? olson 30?), or other form factor that crew weight doesn't impact the rating as much? A ship that rates 70 with 5 people on the rail might theoretically rate 85 with just the skipper at the helm, while another narrow boat with 8' keel that rates 70 with 5 people on the rail might rate 75 single-handed? Is that possible?

I was chatting with a short handed sailor, his secret weapon was to run the autopilot via remote control and then hike out at the shrouds for longer legs. Putting even one "crew" on the rail in a single handed race seems like a decent advantage.

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11 hours ago, Hadlock said:

I was chatting with a short handed sailor, his secret weapon was to run the autopilot via remote control and then hike out at the shrouds for longer legs. Putting even one "crew" on the rail in a single handed race seems like a decent advantage.

Fore and aft trim probably more relevant than marginal righting moment increase? Especially if you are sailing something with a fat arse in light winds.

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12 hours ago, Hadlock said:

 

I was chatting with a short handed sailor, his secret weapon was to run the autopilot via remote control and then hike out at the shrouds for longer legs. Putting even one "crew" on the rail in a single handed race seems like a decent advantage.

Varies between boats, skippers, autopilot being used etc I would say. If I’m 2 handing the J88 then I send my crew to the rail as soon as possible. The SF3600 does better with someone trimming the main more actively as it’s pretty powered up in anything over 10kts of wind. Single handed it could well pay to get some rest on the rail and leave the pilot to work if it’s a fast pilot and you have a tippy boat. Again with the 3600 in a lumpy upwind leg I found it was faster to trim the main and let the pilot steer, it’s a H5000 pilot and very good. It’s like trimming the main for a very predictable helmsman in the way that it alters course to keep speed high. 

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On 2/20/2020 at 11:32 PM, sealion said:

Cutting across lots of threads but...  

what would you buy if you wanted a modern fast boat if you had £150k to spend. 

For single or double handed racing but also has some accommodation for cruising-ish and maybe now and again round the cans with crew. 

Would it be a cat, tri or monohull. 

Pogo 30

dehler 30 OD

sunfast 3300

jpk1030

dragonfly 25

seacart 30

all seem to fit the bill. What cats are there? I love multihulls. Upwind speed and power reaching at nearly twice what a mono could do. But the new breed of 30 footers are putting monohulls back in the limelight. 

What would you get and why??

Add the new J99 to this list. Saw her on boat Dusseldorf. Lot of potential. It's a more double handed oriented J-boat with more beam, optional twin rudders,... 

A JPK 10.10 should be available on the 2nd hand market, although still rare. It looks like an evolution of the A31 (that I know very well now after 2 years racing), but it just left us behind so easily in some races. Will be around 150K, but nicely equipped and ready to rock.

Don't go for Pogo, if you are in a rating game. They suck upwind. They don't look good when getting older (my opinion)

I am curious what the Dehler 30 OD  will do under rating, it's a one-desing purpose...

Btw, in what rating will you sail? 

 

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7 hours ago, TasmanA31 said:

Add the new J99 to this list. Saw her on boat Dusseldorf. Lot of potential. It's a more double handed oriented J-boat with more beam, optional twin rudders,... 

A JPK 10.10 should be available on the 2nd hand market, although still rare. It looks like an evolution of the A31 (that I know very well now after 2 years racing), but it just left us behind so easily in some races. Will be around 150K, but nicely equipped and ready to rock.

Don't go for Pogo, if you are in a rating game. They suck upwind. They don't look good when getting older (my opinion)

I am curious what the Dehler 30 OD  will do under rating, it's a one-desing purpose...

Btw, in what rating will you sail? 

 

Unfortunately, no J/99's or Dehler's 30 in the OP price range.

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On 3/9/2020 at 1:49 PM, Hadlock said:

PHRF ratings seem to stay the same for full crew vs single/double-handed. I believe PHRF ratings are based on the assumption of 500+ lbs of crew weight on the rail upwind.

Is it favorable for shorthanded sailing, to pick a skinny, lighter boat with a moderately deep heavy keel (modified hobie 33? olson 30?), or other form factor that crew weight doesn't impact the rating as much? A ship that rates 70 with 5 people on the rail might theoretically rate 85 with just the skipper at the helm, while another narrow boat with 8' keel that rates 70 with 5 people on the rail might rate 75 single-handed? Is that possible?

I was chatting with a short handed sailor, his secret weapon was to run the autopilot via remote control and then hike out at the shrouds for longer legs. Putting even one "crew" on the rail in a single handed race seems like a decent advantage.

My opinion/experience is you want the heaviest boat you can find that meets your other requirements.  We DH a J/120.  We give up about 1,100 lbs in crew weight on a 15,600 lb boat.  So about 7% difference in total weight.  As you goes towards lighter boats it is really hard to keep the difference between fully crewed and DH to 7%.  Take your typical 30-35 footer that maybe weighs 7,000 lbs.  Still probably races with at least 6 crew.  That is an 11% change in total weight.  The smaller the change in total weight the less you miss having crew on the rail.  I don't think the Hobie 33/Olson 30 is a good solution, because they just suck upwind with or without full crew.  

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I was chatting with a short handed sailor, his secret weapon was to run the autopilot via remote control and then hike out at the shrouds for longer legs. Putting even one "crew" on the rail in a single handed race seems like a decent advantage.

You don't say.....

SHF08-Azzura.jpg

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Touche, Solo Sailor!  (great picture, btw).

 

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A few years ago I steered with legs over the rail while doublehanding a J-105 in a few of our local Wednesday night races. Worked very well in a reasonably steady breeze.

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On 3/9/2020 at 5:27 AM, JL92S said:

So after taking part in an Olympic mixed doubles class training event over the weekend in the J88 I can tell you they’re still a handful in big waves and big breeze! Training along side 2 Sunfast 3600s a Sunfast 3200 and First 40.7 some things became clear. A few people envied they lower loads on our boat, they however did not envy us being in a 2.3T boat in a big wind over tide! The 2 3600s has about a 0.6 - 0.7kt advantage over us on the beats. The 3200 we could match upwind but pull away from downwind. It is unknown wether the Olympic equipment will include an autopilot in which case the J88 would be an exhausting boat to race hard. This could make it a more challenging boat for sailors. 

So a 29'er was .5 kn slower upwind than a 33'er? And it's the weight?

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A well sorted JPK 1010 is the best short-handed design for that kind of money.

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13 minutes ago, Flaming said:

Jassap is en excellent boat, the owner won transquadra with Pascal Loison (of Fastnet 3013 fame) and had the boat done at no expense spared.

He was our neighbour in Cherbourg, the boat is spotless.

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On 2/21/2020 at 8:32 AM, sealion said:

what would you buy if you wanted a modern fast boat if you had £150k to spend. 

For single or double handed racing but also has some accommodation for cruising-ish and maybe now and again round the cans with crew.

all seem to fit the bill. What cats are there? I love multihulls. Upwind speed and power reaching at nearly twice what a mono could do. But the new breed of 30 footers are putting monohulls back in the limelight. 

What would you get and why??

If your idea of fun is tweaking expensive gear while cold, wet and tired to gain a tenth of a knot, most of the boats mentioned will fit the bill.  If it is to push the boundaries sailing fast and comfortably,  one of these might  fit the bill.  Only theoretically as none are sailing yet.

Build it yourself, know your boat inside out and spend less than one third of your money. Or pay someone to build it for you and probably spend all of it if you build it in the UK.  Or, split the difference and pay someone to help you.  The costs go up a little, but progress is much quicker.     Build time for race ready would be sub 1,000 hours.  

The negatives: 

Relative resale value will be poor, the same as it is for most new boats.  If you win some races it might be respectable. Offsetting this, you will not have to spend any money on sails, lines, rigging or equipment for the first 5 years.  

It's weird looking, you will need a thick skin and a lot of patience explaining it to people.

The positives:

No foredeck work, hairy gybes or extras to pay for and fight with.  This is boat handling at it's easiest.  

Near zero maintenance of rig and deck gear as there is so little of it.

Bit lighter than the SeaCart, but higher righting moment, same upwind sail area and longer waterline (more comfortable and higher top speed).  Less sail area downwind, but it's no problem making taller masts.  

The missus would spend weekends on it.  Unlike the Seacart,  most of the race cats and the competitive monos.

Build a second windward hull without the cabin etc and you have a serious rocket ship.

Weird looking, you will have no shortage of people showing an interest. ;-)

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On 4/28/2020 at 8:34 PM, Kenny Dumas said:

Second reef is serious 

40% luff reduction to avoid carrying a trysail under OSR?

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8 hours ago, harryproa said:

If your idea of fun is tweaking expensive gear while cold, wet and tired to gain a tenth of a knot, most of the boats mentioned will fit the bill.  If it is to push the boundaries sailing fast and comfortably,  one of these might  fit the bill.  Only theoretically as none are sailing yet.

Build it yourself, know your boat inside out and spend less than one third of your money. Or pay someone to build it for you and probably spend all of it if you build it in the UK.  Or, split the difference and pay someone to help you.  The costs go up a little, but progress is much quicker.     Build time for race ready would be sub 1,000 hours.  

The negatives: 

Relative resale value will be poor, the same as it is for most new boats.  If you win some races it might be respectable. Offsetting this, you will not have to spend any money on sails, lines, rigging or equipment for the first 5 years.  

It's weird looking, you will need a thick skin and a lot of patience explaining it to people.

The positives:

No foredeck work, hairy gybes or extras to pay for and fight with.  This is boat handling at it's easiest.  

Near zero maintenance of rig and deck gear as there is so little of it.

Bit lighter than the SeaCart, but higher righting moment, same upwind sail area and longer waterline (more comfortable and higher top speed).  Less sail area downwind, but it's no problem making taller masts.  

The missus would spend weekends on it.  Unlike the Seacart,  most of the race cats and the competitive monos.

Build a second windward hull without the cabin etc and you have a serious rocket ship.

Weird looking, you will have no shortage of people showing an interest. ;-)

So tell me, how many have actually been built, of this (exact one in the link) greatest invention ever known to man?

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4 hours ago, Misbehavin' said:

So tell me, how many have actually been built, of this (exact one in the link) greatest invention ever known to man?

Last sentence, first paragraph of my post.  

The Ex40 is a 160% version of http://harryproa.com/?p=1753  with a small cabin and an easier build method.  I'd appreciate knowing why you do/don't think it meets the OP's requirements?

Elementarry_17.jpg

Elementarry_19.jpg

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4 hours ago, harryproa said:

Last sentence, first paragraph of my post.  

The Ex40 is a 160% version of http://harryproa.com/?p=1753  with a small cabin and an easier build method.  I'd appreciate knowing why you do/don't think it meets the OP's requirements?

Elementarry_17.jpg

Elementarry_19.jpg

Because as per the post, he wants to buy one, not build it himself in a shed.

I actually quite like the concept on the website, but like many other good concepts and inventions, I can't see them properly catching on being too left-field. And yes, before you start extolling the virtues of proas, I do know about them and their seafaring significance.

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9 hours ago, harryproa said:

I'd appreciate knowing why you do/don't think it meets the OP's requirements?

Who are you going to race it against?

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21 hours ago, Misbehavin' said:

Because as per the post, he wants to buy one, not build it himself in a shed.

I actually quite like the concept on the website, but like many other good concepts and inventions, I can't see them properly catching on being too left-field. And yes, before you start extolling the virtues of proas, I do know about them and their seafaring significance.

Glad you like the concept.  I agree that for some people they are too left field.   This attitude might change if they sailed on one.

But for people who want a boat for "single or double handed racing that also has some accommodation for cruising-ish and maybe now and again round the cans with crew...... who love multihulls and upwind speed and power reaching at nearly twice what a mono could do"  and who are not scared of left field, the Harryproa might have some appeal.

I guess it depends on your definition of "buying".  The one I use is "pay some money for a boat that is race and cruise ready".  

With this definition and £150k to spend he could have one built in the UK.    Or in Aus or NZ and ship it to the UK and have some change.  Or use a left field builder in Asia or South America, and maybe buy 2 of them.   Or employ someone to do the building while he does the logistics and helps when he wants to, which would be the most cost/time effective of all and result in a boat he knew inside and out.  

Snowden,

The boats ahead and the boats behind, same as any multihull racing against monos.   These will change with the breeze strength and direction.  Whether this is a good thing or not depends on your outlook.

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11 hours ago, harryproa said:

Snowden,

The boats ahead and the boats behind, same as any multihull racing against monos.   These will change with the breeze strength and direction.  Whether this is a good thing or not depends on your outlook.

That's not my idea of racing. Buying / building something so radically different to what is raced in your local area just to be different seems perverse.

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8 hours ago, Snowden said:

That's not my idea of racing. Buying / building something so radically different to what is raced in your local area just to be different seems perverse.

I could not agree more.  Being different for the sake of it is totally perverse .  

But if you buy/build it because it meets your requirements better than any of the other boats mentioned, then it makes sense.

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On 2/20/2020 at 2:32 PM, sealion said:

Cutting across lots of threads but...  

what would you buy if you wanted a modern fast boat if you had £150k to spend. 

For single or double handed racing but also has some accommodation for cruising-ish and maybe now and again round the cans with crew. 

Would it be a cat, tri or monohull. 

Pogo 30

dehler 30 OD

sunfast 3300

jpk1030

dragonfly 25

seacart 30

all seem to fit the bill. What cats are there? I love multihulls. Upwind speed and power reaching at nearly twice what a mono could do. But the new breed of 30 footers are putting monohulls back in the limelight. 

What would you get and why??

Elvstrom single handed a dragonfly 25, no?  Until Valhalla beckoned.....

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On 2/21/2020 at 12:24 PM, Black Jack said:

Question to OP - Why pick a price point that has less relevance than ever. There are way too many boats that come in for less than 50k that are capable of doing everything you want.

 

Except plane.....

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3 hours ago, Amati said:

Except plane.....

Amati- this thread is about considering a shorthanded racing and cruising boat - so stay open to possibilities as it leads to open debate, wisdom and arguable understanding. I believe that price isn't everything and what is the vogue hotshot now rarely sustains the racing luster later. More to your point: planing is only one direction. Going to weather is going another. Single or double handing a somewhat squirrelly boat that is planing for long periods of time is exhausting and few can manage it over long distances.  It has been my experience have found that it is a matter of choice, conditions, balance and place that wins PHRF races. Like every other trade off in boat selection: a wiser sailer should want take a boat that is fast, safe and comfortable over the down hill speeder nearly every time. Places like San Francisco and other heavy air sailing venues, going to weather is half the race. I have seen my 52 year old 1200 dollar, 30' wooden stripped planked boat plane at over 16 kts and beat boats 100 times more expensive and 40 years newer. In winds that exceed 20 kts and in chop, these old race boats will out perform most ultralight boats mentioned above. In last weeks Round The Rocks SSS race we managed to beat many ultralight boats up wind and kept up with many of them them down wind as the conditions were perfect. It was those similar kind of conditions this little boat beat the legendary 73' Windward Passage in 1969 in the SORC Luycaya Race. 

No doubt I would love to sail a Delher 30 or a J99. If i want speed and sail with crew, my fresh 1D35 that rates 36 is really a blast. It is not comfortable and puts a different smile on my face than my current 48 year old race 30' half ton that I paid less than 7k 2 months ago that will win a bunch when I sail it properly and a pleasure when I take my family out for a cruise.

 

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7 hours ago, Black Jack said:

Amati- this thread is about considering a shorthanded racing and cruising boat - so stay open to possibilities as it leads to open debate, wisdom and arguable understanding. I believe that price isn't everything and what is the vogue hotshot now rarely sustains the racing luster later. More to your point: planing is only one direction. Going to weather is going another. Single or double handing a somewhat squirrelly boat that is planing for long periods of time is exhausting and few can manage it over long distances.  It has been my experience have found that it is a matter of choice, conditions, balance and place that wins PHRF races. Like every other trade off in boat selection: a wiser sailer should want take a boat that is fast, safe and comfortable over the down hill speeder nearly every time. Places like San Francisco and other heavy air sailing venues, going to weather is half the race. I have seen my 52 year old 1200 dollar, 30' wooden stripped planked boat plane at over 16 kts and beat boats 100 times more expensive and 40 years newer. In winds that exceed 20 kts and in chop, these old race boats will out perform most ultralight boats mentioned above. In last weeks Round The Rocks SSS race we managed to beat many ultralight boats up wind and kept up with many of them them down wind as the conditions were perfect. It was those similar kind of conditions this little boat beat the legendary 73' Windward Passage in 1969 in the SORC Luycaya Race. 

No doubt I would love to sail a Delher 30 or a J99. If i want speed and sail with crew, my fresh 1D35 that rates 36 is really a blast. It is not comfortable and puts a different smile on my face than my current 48 year old race 30' half ton that I paid less than 7k 2 months ago that will win a bunch when I sail it properly and a pleasure when I take my family out for a cruise.

 

WTF?

If you think I’m a new custom boat snob, you could just come out and say it.

 


 

 


 

 


 

 

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not sure how serious the OP is about actually buying one because when the rubber meets the road so to speak the wankfest ends.

Fact is there is no "best boat" and wtf does that even mean in this context? A sailor may be weak, strong, smart stupid well funded or broken arsed, they might even love that butt ugly proa!! So the whole discussion is pointless unless some specific parameters are listed and for what sailor and for what conditions.

Basically any boat under 35 ft is a candidate above that you better be on your game because you cant avoid the physics associated with a bigger boats.

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22 hours ago, Black Jack said:

In last weeks Round The Rocks SSS race we managed to beat many ultralight boats up wind and kept up with many of them them down wind as the conditions were perfect.

Full disclosure would require mentioning the re-start between G "3" and G "5."  That massive hole near the finish allowed the heavier boats to catch up to the lighter boats.  But carry on...

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I like the concept and the speed. Falls under OP price point. Next time in Netherlands - I'll take one for a spin and consider what she would do in my bay.

 

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