izikalvo@gmail.com

Using your new anchor with kinetic rope

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We are playing with a new idea since anchors are becoming lighter, would you consider using a new-gen light anchor with 10-meter chain and the rest of the rode be a kinetic Nylon rope that can be stretched?

We estimate that this kind of setup will dismiss the usage of a windlass with boats up to 40ft.

what do you think?

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1 hour ago, izikalvo@gmail.com said:

We are playing with a new idea since anchors are becoming lighter, would you consider using a new-gen light anchor with 10-meter chain and the rest of the rode be a kinetic Nylon rope that can be stretched?

We estimate that this kind of setup will dismiss the usage of a windlass with boats up to 40ft.

what do you think?

You'll probably end up on a beach somewhere.;)

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Anchor rode is typically 3 strand nylon and is in effect a kinetic "rope" is it not?

Not sure what we are proposing that is revolutionary here.......<_<

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2 minutes ago, GTim said:

Anchor rode is typically 3 strand nylon and is in effect a kinetic "rope" is it not?

Not sure what we are proposing that is revolutionary here.......<_<

REDBULL?  Wigs???  

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Is it the length of chain you are suggesting is revolutionary? Cause I'm not sure that counts either.

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3 hours ago, billy backstay said:

Links don't lead to any anchors??

The links are a dead giveaway this is cut and past from Cruisers & Sailing Forums...

which it is

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f118/using-your-new-anchor-with-kinetic-rope-230839.html

Generally that thread also has no idea what the OP is on about that would be different from SOP

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just watched a video on Kinetic Energy Recovery Ropes, which I guess is a way of helping stuck vehicles. One thing that caught my ear was "If it doesn't work the first time, wait 5 minutes for the rope to recover, then try again."

Yeah, I don't think anyone would consider this an improvement over 3 strand or 8 plait. seems more likely that in an anchorage with a heavy sea (Vineyard Haven with a Northeast wind, anyone?), this is as likely to pop your anchor out of the sand than anything else.

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49 minutes ago, ryley said:

just watched a video on Kinetic Energy Recovery Ropes, which I guess is a way of helping stuck vehicles. One thing that caught my ear was "If it doesn't work the first time, wait 5 minutes for the rope to recover, then try again."

Yeah, I don't think anyone would consider this an improvement over 3 strand or 8 plait. seems more likely that in an anchorage with a heavy sea (Vineyard Haven with a Northeast wind, anyone?), this is as likely to pop your anchor out of the sand than anything else.

yeah, you want a very gradual give, not a constant quick snapping one which could dislodge your hold, thinking rubber band stretching / resetting over and over

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The chain is an important weighted part of the rode that keeps the anchor aligned properly relative to the pulling motion of the boat. If you're replacing the chain with rope, you better weigh it every set distance with weights like boats of yore before modern chains. 

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22 minutes ago, Miffy said:

The chain is an important weighted part of the rode that keeps the anchor aligned properly relative to the pulling motion of the boat. If you're replacing the chain with rope, you better weigh it every set distance with weights like boats of yore before modern chains. 

Anchor manufacturers like Danforth specify a fairly short length of chain - 15' to 20' IIRC - and nylon rode.  The chain both prevents chafe on the bottom and keeps the last bit of tug on the anchor in line with the shaft of the anchor.  The recommended scope is established to put enough catenary in the anchor line to align the boat's tug with the shaft as well.  That's why more breeze or more depth =  more scope.  They do not recommend spaced weights that I've ever seen.  

The typical cruiser's bias towards all chain may have value when anchoring in shallow coral-filled atolls (which is a good way to destroy a reef anyway - so maybe not a great idea), but otherwise is mostly just a pile of unnecessary weight to carry around.  

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14 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

The chain both prevents chafe on the bottom and keeps the last bit of tug on the anchor in line with the shaft of the anchor.  

The typical cruiser's bias towards all chain may have value when anchoring in shallow coral-filled atolls (which is a good way to destroy a reef anyway - so maybe not a great idea), but otherwise is mostly just a pile of unnecessary weight to carry around.  

I think the cruiser's bias towards all chain is also due to the fact that many boats are lost in storms when the nylon rode chafes through on the boat itself, especially if damaged due to the forces involved (e.g. parted bow roller).

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14 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Anchor manufacturers like Danforth specify a fairly short length of chain - 15' to 20' IIRC - and nylon rode.  The chain both prevents chafe on the bottom and keeps the last bit of tug on the anchor in line with the shaft of the anchor.  The recommended scope is established to put enough catenary in the anchor line to align the boat's tug with the shaft as well.  That's why more breeze or more depth =  more scope.  They do not recommend spaced weights that I've ever seen.  

The typical cruiser's bias towards all chain may have value when anchoring in shallow coral-filled atolls (which is a good way to destroy a reef anyway - so maybe not a great idea), but otherwise is mostly just a pile of unnecessary weight to carry around.  

I'm not sure what is a "typical cruiser" chain length to lug around, but I thought the premise of the thread was replacing chain altogether like we're back in the era of stone anchors and natural fiber rope with 2 inch diameters. 

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2 minutes ago, Miffy said:

I'm not sure what is a "typical cruiser" chain length to lug around, but I thought the premise of the thread was replacing chain altogether like we're back in the era of stone anchors and natural fiber rope with 2 inch diameters. 

I've seen more than a few cruisers lug around 150' of chain in a bow locker.  Some with 300'  

Can "kinetic rope" solve the problem of chafe from dragging across cobble or rocks can be solved.  Sounds to me like the marketing department got involved.

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2 minutes ago, Miffy said:

I'm not sure what is a "typical cruiser" chain length to lug around, but I thought the premise of the thread was replacing chain altogether like we're back in the era of stone anchors and natural fiber rope with 2 inch diameters. 

The premise of the thread as worded by original poster" would you consider using a new-gen light anchor with 10-meter chain and the rest of the rode be a kinetic Nylon rope that can be stretched? "

So 33 feet of chain and then "kinetic nylon"....

 

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I've been using 10 M of chain and 200' of 3 strand nylon and no windlass on a 42 footer for two decades.  Only change here is "kinetic rope".  I'm familiar with kinetic ropes for climbing and used ones make good mooring lines as climbers change them often.  Not so sure you need that much stretch (up to 30%)  in an anchor rode.  Imagine being pushed back 30% of your scope by a gust and then "recovering" forward at 2-3 knots once the gust subsides.  Would certainly make you the life of the anchorage.  

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Smart mountain climbers ie the one still alive replace ropes once there has been a signicant loading ( read fall) as the kinetic properties are not so good

why look for solution when there is not a problem

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1 hour ago, Left Shift said:

Anchor manufacturers like Danforth specify a fairly short length of chain - 15' to 20' IIRC - and nylon rode.  The chain both prevents chafe on the bottom and keeps the last bit of tug on the anchor in line with the shaft of the anchor.  The recommended scope is established to put enough catenary in the anchor line to align the boat's tug with the shaft as well.  That's why more breeze or more depth =  more scope.  They do not recommend spaced weights that I've ever seen.  

The typical cruiser's bias towards all chain may have value when anchoring in shallow coral-filled atolls (which is a good way to destroy a reef anyway - so maybe not a great idea), but otherwise is mostly just a pile of unnecessary weight to carry around.  

Having spent five days with 50knts, gusting to 70, there is a reason relying on nylon can be a problem.

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Over-engineering solutions are critical on live-aboards. You never know when the $hit hits the fan, and overbuilt anchor + rode setup is essential. Hence the reason most experienced long-term cruisers end up with all chain. We originally had 10m + 100 feet of 8-plait on a 29 foot racer/cruiser. Swapped it out for all chain after 4 months, despite the weight (which did effect the sailing performance somewhat). Made a huge difference in how the boat handled at anchor. Also, it didn't wrap around the keel in wind vs. tide situations. I would never replace it for a dynamic line like the one described in this post. And I'm a climber, so understand the capabilities of these lines.

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1 hour ago, Innocent Bystander said:

I've been using 10 M of chain and 200' of 3 strand nylon and no windlass on a 42 footer for two decades.  Only change here is "kinetic rope".  I'm familiar with kinetic ropes for climbing and used ones make good mooring lines as climbers change them often.  Not so sure you need that much stretch (up to 30%)  in an anchor rode.  Imagine being pushed back 30% of your scope by a gust and then "recovering" forward at 2-3 knots once the gust subsides.  Would certainly make you the life of the anchorage.  

During a hurricane we had 150 feet of nylon out in 10 feet of water. It was like a bungee cord ride, the rode stretched WAY out when the gusts would come through and then we would spring WAY back :D

We had to get the USCG to come out the next day, the anchor had sunk through several feet of mud and was way into the clay. It was not coming loose until 400 HP got connected to the line. The entire chain came up crusted in clay.

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Had a guy with a Contessa 32 in a somewhat crowded but quiet, protected, anchorage tell me to move because I was in his swinging circle.  We were both in about 25' of water.  I asked him how much scope he had out - he said 150' OF CHAIN.  I asked him what he thought that pile of chain sitting in a heap on the bottom was going to do for him.  No response.  I put a shore line out and forgot about him. 

Later I saw him in my local harbour complaining to someone else.  20' of water with good holding.  I casually motored by and said loudly "you're the problem".  

Someone needs to update the beginner sailor's book and let people know that in a crowded anchorage it is SOP to do no more than 4:1 with rode and 3:1 with chain, on the understanding that if the wind shows up in the night more will be let out.  

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I've seen suggestions from people that I would consider competent that nylon is probably not suitable as a rode for larger boats because it's too stretchy, and polyester would be a better choice for that application.  Nylon is a good choice for shorter lines, such as your snubber line on an all chain rode, or a dock line spring.  I can see the logic in their reasoning.

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I've never lay awake at anchor in a blow thinking "I wish I had less chain and more bungy cord"

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I think I’ll do just fine with 300’ of chain on one anchor and 50’ of chain and regular old anchor line for the other. 
 

If anyone’s yacht survives a blow with kenetic line, please report back.

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On 2/26/2020 at 8:52 AM, izikalvo@gmail.com said:

We are playing with a new idea since anchors are becoming lighter, would you consider using a new-gen light anchor with 10-meter chain and the rest of the rode be a kinetic Nylon rope that can be stretched?

We estimate that this kind of setup will dismiss the usage of a windlass with boats up to 40ft.

what do you think?

What do I think??  I spend 300 nights a year at anchor as a live aboard and like to sleep well at night in any weather conditions....especially with bad weather coming in at 0300hrs.....  you would never find me using your suggestion for the kind of cruising I do (Caribbean) as I have no idea what you mean by a "new-gen light anchor", not to mention a short chain length and Nylon rope.  And all this to dismiss the use of a windlass??  Why??  This might be a nice solution for a 'lunch hook', but not for anything more than that.

It appears you have a Jeanneau 43DS.....I have a 45DS using a 25kg(55 pound) Rocna anchor and 75 meters (250') of G43 9.5mm (3/8") chain.  I'll set the hook and then use a 10 meter (33') nylon snubber attached to 14mm Dynema/Polyester line that goes to my bow cleat.  I'm at a loss to understand what your point is or what the advantage is of your proposed solution....

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so...... a newbie, with one post asks a question..... no traditional greeting. no call to buy an ad. no nothing. fuck have we ever let the standards slip. look at what is going on here and give your heads a shake. dood is trying to find a market for a stupid new name to something we already use. kinetic rope? fuck off, thats nylon triple brade. been around for a yonk's age.  i bet the 'kinetic rope' is in a neon colour. fuck

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We suck at our job and need re-training

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18 hours ago, Huggy Bear Brown said:

What do I think??  I spend 300 nights a year at anchor as a live aboard and like to sleep well at night in any weather conditions....especially with bad weather coming in at 0300hrs.....  you would never find me using your suggestion for the kind of cruising I do (Caribbean) as I have no idea what you mean by a "new-gen light anchor", not to mention a short chain length and Nylon rope.  And all this to dismiss the use of a windlass??  Why??  This might be a nice solution for a 'lunch hook', but not for anything more than that.

It appears you have a Jeanneau 43DS.....I have a 45DS using a 25kg(55 pound) Rocna anchor and 75 meters (250') of G43 9.5mm (3/8") chain.  I'll set the hook and then use a 10 meter (33') nylon snubber attached to 14mm Dynema/Polyester line that goes to my bow cleat.  I'm at a loss to understand what your point is or what the advantage is of your proposed solution....

One way to reduce the weight of an all-chain solution is to go with G7 chain - you can substantially reduce the size of the chain for the same breaking strength.

Or you could probably just reduce the size of the G43 chain and be fine anyways - I recall Evans Starzinger writing somewhere that they used an old piece of 10mm climbing rope as a  snubber with their all-chain solution and expected it to quickly overload and break, but it never did even when anchored in 50+ knot winds, which indicated that the load on the system was generally lower than expected. 

As such I think anchor chains are generally oversized...

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I used 10mm climbing rope for our anchor snubber bridle on our 40' cat. It held fine in an anchorage with about 50 knots of wind for a few hours. It was very stretchy but did reduce the shock loading on the rest of the rode a lot. Each leg was about 25' long or so.

Actual measured loads on a 38' catamaran - scroll to bottom for the graphs, but read the article too.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails-rigging-deckgear/anchor-testing-and-rode-loads

 

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Chain is good to a certain extent. The catenary of the chain and the drag on the bottom helps. Once the chain is straight and bar tight you have lost the advantage and then you need the elasticity of nylon (at that point probably not ballistic nylon). Just regular 15-20% stretchy nylon so not have shock loads on the attachment point(s).

Most stuff that will save your ass and keep you alive is "crazy expensive" until your life depends on it. Then it is cheap at ten times the price.

Just sayin.

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On 2/28/2020 at 5:39 AM, basketcase said:

so...... a newbie, with one post asks a question..... no traditional greeting. no call to buy an ad. no nothing. fuck have we ever let the standards slip. look at what is going on here and give your heads a shake. dood is trying to find a market for a stupid new name to something we already use. kinetic rope? fuck off, thats nylon triple brade. been around for a yonk's age.  i bet the 'kinetic rope' is in a neon colour. fuck

I just hope it really helps you, keep it coming after all that's why we are here for.

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3 hours ago, izikalvo@gmail.com said:

I just hope it really helps you, keep it coming after all that's why we are here for.

Awesome second post, mate.

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19 hours ago, gspot said:

One way to reduce the weight of an all-chain solution is to go with G7 chain - you can substantially reduce the size of the chain for the same breaking strength.

Or you could probably just reduce the size of the G43 chain and be fine anyways - I recall Evans Starzinger writing somewhere that they used an old piece of 10mm climbing rope as a  snubber with their all-chain solution and expected it to quickly overload and break, but it never did even when anchored in 50+ knot winds, which indicated that the load on the system was generally lower than expected. 

As such I think anchor chains are generally oversized...

The G7 chain is a great solution for the reasons you stated and I'll check that out next time I need new chain and gypsy.  I run into a couple issues with going to a smaller G7 chain, those being I would need to purchase a new gypsy head to the tune of about $500.  I also have a sourcing issue as the range of G7 is not widely available in the Caribbean at this point and it's quite expensive, even if it is downsized compared to the larger G43.  I also have 40 meters (125') of 3/8" G43  stored in my bilge w/ 200' of 5/8" nylon three strand for my second anchor.  to be useful, I would need to also replace the spare chain with the G7 to fit my new gypsy which would get very expensive......  While chain may tend to be oversized for a lot of boats what we use is prudent for our application as we spend each season the the Hurricane Box.  We had both TS Dorian and Karen pass nearby last season.....I'll take the heavy ground tackle for our application....

The Evans Starzinger PPT was interesting and provided the basis for my current snubber setup.  While I'm currently using three strand and 8 plait (I have three snubbers I use depending on conditions) nylon the climbing rope is interesting and something I want to look into.  He was also using Dynema between the nylon section and his bow cleat for chafe resistance and noise reduction (Nylon gets crazy noisy as it stretches between your bow roller and cleat).

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On 2/27/2020 at 1:43 AM, Rain Man said:

Had a guy with a Contessa 32 in a somewhat crowded but quiet, protected, anchorage tell me to move because I was in his swinging circle.  We were both in about 25' of water.  I asked him how much scope he had out - he said 150' OF CHAIN.  I asked him what he thought that pile of chain sitting in a heap on the bottom was going to do for him.  No response.  I put a shore line out and forgot about him. 

Later I saw him in my local harbour complaining to someone else.  20' of water with good holding.  I casually motored by and said loudly "you're the problem".  

Someone needs to update the beginner sailor's book and let people know that in a crowded anchorage it is SOP to do no more than 4:1 with rode and 3:1 with chain, on the understanding that if the wind shows up in the night more will be let out.  

7 to 1 is what I was taught as the standard.  You can get by with less in benign conditions of course.   But if you're in a crowded anchorage and the wind comes up at night and everyone needs to let out twice as much rode, then everyone in that anchorage is in a dicey situation.

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16 hours ago, Zonker said:

I used 10mm climbing rope for our anchor snubber bridle on our 40' cat. It held fine in an anchorage with about 50 knots of wind for a few hours. It was very stretchy but did reduce the shock loading on the rest of the rode a lot. Each leg was about 25' long or so.

Actual measured loads on a 38' catamaran - scroll to bottom for the graphs, but read the article too.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails-rigging-deckgear/anchor-testing-and-rode-loads

 

Thanks for the post Zonker......great article and solid/helpful information.  I'll look into the climbing rope option.....

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5 hours ago, Huggy Bear Brown said:

The G7 chain is a great solution for the reasons you stated and I'll check that out next time I need new chain and gypsy.  I run into a couple issues with going to a smaller G7 chain, those being I would need to purchase a new gypsy head to the tune of about $500.  I also have a sourcing issue as the range of G7 is not widely available in the Caribbean at this point and it's quite expensive, even if it is downsized compared to the larger G43.  I also have 40 meters (125') of 3/8" G43  stored in my bilge w/ 200' of 5/8" nylon three strand for my second anchor.  to be useful, I would need to also replace the spare chain with the G7 to fit my new gypsy which would get very expensive......  While chain may tend to be oversized for a lot of boats what we use is prudent for our application as we spend each season the the Hurricane Box.  We had both TS Dorian and Karen pass nearby last season.....I'll take the heavy ground tackle for our application....

The Evans Starzinger PPT was interesting and provided the basis for my current snubber setup.  While I'm currently using three strand and 8 plait (I have three snubbers I use depending on conditions) nylon the climbing rope is interesting and something I want to look into.  He was also using Dynema between the nylon section and his bow cleat for chafe resistance and noise reduction (Nylon gets crazy noisy as it stretches between your bow roller and cleat).

For my application I found that G7 has a similar link size to BBB (not sure if this is always the case) so I suspected there were some old unused gypsies laying around from when people upgraded their chains to G43. So I posted what I was looking for on a cruising forum and voila - somebody had one laying around and sent it to me for the price of shipping!

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New generation anchors offer greater holding that past designs. That means you can use a lighter anchor and have the same security we had in the past with less effective design.

The idea of using chain and rope combined is not new, I have to admit, I have posted this thread in three different forums and the wisdom of the crowd is working wonderfully and I am learning a lot, we are still thinking if it is possible to come up with a light solution that will be strong and trustable enough that will dismiss the usage of windlass, rope materials came a long way and technically I believe it can be done and will be done, the question is how long it will take us to trust the new idea, see new design anchors, most of us still talking of the weight of the anchor as the main factor when choosing new one not it's tested holding power value and then size up just to be safe when in new design anchors it just might be disadvantage doing so.

 

Thank you all for your valuable comments.

 

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15 hours ago, izikalvo@gmail.com said:

a light solution that will be strong and trustable enough that will dismiss the usage of windlass,

Sure it is, I've sat in 40+ knots on a 50 fter anchored to a fortress with about 20 ft of chain then the rest nylon. Race boat, we stood anchor watches through the night. Two of us manhandled in in and out, no problem.

But on my cruising boat, chain with a couple of nylon snubbers is easy and cheap. 50m of chain doesn't weigh that much, and you can move it to the bilges if you want when sailing. I could even be swayed to the idea of a standard sized anchor with enough chain to deal with coral (say 20m) on the bow for normal use,  and I could probably retrieve that by hand.

With a big arse anchor and 60m of chain in the bilge for when you get nervous. Need to think through how to deploy from bilge to fordeck on your normal ma and pop crusing boat - I sure as shit can't lift 60m of 10mm chain.

Actually, just get a windlass for the anchor. Makes it much more likely that you will retrieve and reset with a poor set, whereas if I needed to do it by hand, I might be more inclinded to the view that it would set eventually... hopefully...

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6 hours ago, Se7en said:

Actually, just get a windlass for the anchor. Makes it much more likely that you will retrieve and reset with a poor set, whereas if I needed to do it by hand, I might be more inclinded to the view that it would set eventually... hopefully...

And for a short handed boat (ie a cruising couple) a big help to go up the mast, hoist dinghy,  all sorts of stuff - rigging falls is fun 

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9 hours ago, Se7en said:

Actually, just get a windlass for the anchor. Makes it much more likely that you will retrieve and reset with a poor set, whereas if I needed to do it by hand, I might be more inclinded to the view that it would set eventually... hopefully...

This ^. Nothing like being not quite comfortable with the setting and just doing it again. Sleep is a good thing and hanging on a 'not quite right' anchor isn't conducive to sleep.

Once you get to strange, out off the way places you have never been to before, it is not uncommon to try three or four times.

Plus it is good for when you anchor in the worst place, wait for all the charter boats to anchor next to you, then bugger off to the good spot just as it gets darks.

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I can’t believe what a bunch of cunts you all are, someone comes in here with the kinetic rope solution and all you can do is bleat.

Until you’ve been on a mac 26 with kinetic rope everywhere and until you’ve anchored in 4th mode just shut the fuck up

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57 minutes ago, toad said:

I can’t believe what a bunch of cunts you all are, someone comes in here with the kinetic rope solution and all you can do is bleat.

Until you’ve been on a mac 26 with kinetic rope everywhere and until you’ve anchored in 4th mode just shut the fuck up

Was the kinetic rope fluorescent? 

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51 minutes ago, KC375 said:
1 hour ago, Zonker said:

As the ad says: " Perfect for nighttime boating"

I'll get right on rerigging everything with 1/4" poly. Maybe I'll use it doubled for the anchor line. It should be easy to see at night when it's floating around the boat.

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I like a very heavy thick line from the cleats thru the chocks and 20-30ft off the boat to limit chafe in those high chafe areas

most boats will need the deck gear upgraded to use 1-1 1/2 or even 2'' line to be sure of no chaffing thru a line even in a extreme blow

then a normal size nylon line to a short heavy chain  10 ft and danforth anchor with another set 180 deg to the first for shifts

that way the chafe is on a heavy line but you get the stretching of a normal working anchor line in no chafe parts

you can't have too big an anchor or line or too many just to small or too few

in ANDREW I HAD 8 LINES OUT 4 BROKE/CHAFFED 4 HELD THE 47 FT BOAT IN PLACE IN DINNER KEY OUTER ANCHORAGE

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On 2/26/2020 at 6:52 AM, izikalvo@gmail.com said:

We are playing with a new idea since anchors are becoming lighter, would you consider using a new-gen light anchor with 10-meter chain and the rest of the rode be a kinetic Nylon rope that can be stretched?
 

Not if i planned on using it. To fulfill a race safety requirement that i knew i wasnt going to use? maybe. I'll take as much steel as i can get in my ground tackle otherwise.

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I watched in amazement from my boat as a German flagged cruising boat came barrelling into the snug little anchorage of Cruz Bay at full speed. There is very little room for visiting boats to anchor up even though the Customs House is there. Local boat take up 90% of the anchorage and it can take a couple of years to work ones way into the mooring field by starting from the fringes. I had been anchored/moored there for maybe three years at the time and was used to coming home from an evening at the bar and find a charter boat rafted up to my boat because they had tried to squeeze in between my boat and my neighbor and then when the wind went light at night the swung into me and just put out fenders and rafted up rather than re-anchor where there was room! I asked why they didn't just move their boat and the told me that the charter company had told them they could not move the boat after dark...

     Back to the fast approaching German boat which was now seen to be singlehanded. Both main and genoa still fully trimmed well into the harbor and charging up the ferry boat channel as the elderly guy was looking for a slot in the wall to wall array of boat. He seemed to sense a potential gap and bore away for the gap and still hadn't sheeted out or reduced sail! He ran up to the foredeck as he passed under my stern and I yelled for him to slow down and drop some sails in he hoped to anchor there. He picked up some gadget of what appeared to be and anchor (at least it was attached to a rode) and with great gusto threw it as far as he could. It hit the water surface just as the line came taut and the aluminum contraption jumped onto a plane on its generous broad flukes and was merrily skipping across the water behind his boat that was still sailing at maybe 5 knots with no one at the helm. He shot right past what might have been a hole big enough to spend the afternoon anchored and glanced off of the boat on the opposite side of the spot from me. By then he had returned to the helm and put the boat into a crash tack that would have been admirable is it had been done as a leebow tack just shy of the windward mark on a race course but was nuts in this instance. He released the genoa which flopped over to the new tack as he  bore off back towards the channel. His genoa didn't get resheeted and the flailing sheet caught on another neighbors bow sprit and pulled that boat into his but somehow flogged itself free. The old guy finally rolled up his genoa as he went around my bow without further incident but then I saw his still skipping anchor nearly snag on my mooring lines!  As he ducked the stern of the next boat his marauding anchor hit the dingy hanging from the stern which brought a string of cursing from the owner. 

    I was astounded when I watched the guy drop his mainsail finally in the channel and then slowly motor back after pulling his pseudo anchor back up to where it was hanging just under the bow roller. He was actually going to try once more to anchor in the same spot that he had failed so dramatically a few minutes before!! Now he had the owners of the three boats he had glanced off of as well as the damaged dinghy owner berating him in the finest manner and he actually told the dingy guy that he should shorter up his dinghy painter so as to not be compounding the crowding in the harbor. 

     He did manage to get his hook down into the good holding of the sandy bottom and with maybe 3:1 scope shoehorned his 36-38 footer into what he imagined as fair game as an anchoring spot. He acted like that was Standard Operating Procedure and as his cockpit was literally within spitting distance of me we started a conversation. I opened with my gambit  'Why the hell were you going to fast to even try and stick you boat in here? And why under full sail?'

    His response was that his boat steers better with a good bit of headway on and he had his motor on but not in gear so as to not foul his own sheets or any mooring lines, as if that was justified under the circumstances... The he blamed the whole fuck up on his anchor saying the the 'anti-flotation device for my anchor failed to deploy...'

     He said that his anchor was the latest result of German engineering and manufacture and was a very advanced piece of gear. Of course he could not show be the wonders of this anchor as it was on the bottom practically under his boat but on further inquiry he told me that it had flotation chambers in the shank up near the end that would lever the anchor up to make the flukes take on a better angle to dig into the bottom and set deeper. My skepticism grew further and pointed out an unused mooring just behind him (and me!) that I knew the owner was away for a couple more days and invited him to use it for the night. He thanked me profusely and as his motor was still idling away (charging batts?) he just put it into reverse and backed up until he could pick up that mooring with a boat hook. The anchor still deployed off the bow had no effect whatsoever as he backed toward the mooring and it looked like he was happy to just sit bow and stern which would not work in that harbor where everyone swung to their moorings. I told the guy his miracle anchor wasn't doing a damn thing and I didn't want him tangling with me during the night and suggested he take the mooring lines up to his bow and while he was at it to pull up the anchor so he could demonstrate its features to me. He seemed happy to do so and so was I now that his bow was downwind of my stern and I could barely hear his motor charging his batteries. 

     As he retrieved the wonder anchor I was surprised that there was indeed a pair of cylindrical floats mounted at the shackle that would seem to pull up but I didn't see how that would help the flukes really dig in. I asked about the 'anti-floatation' feature that had failed and he explained that the floats had small vent holes that would allow the air inside to drain out to negate the floatation on the floats but apparently the vents had become clogged with mud or something. He poked his marlinspike on his knife into the vents and mud and water actually drained out! I commented that his 'flotation' feature seemed to have failed and that it was the high speed over the water that was the primary issue. He seemed perplexed at such complexities so I pointed at a length of chain about 6 feet long laying in the gutter on the foredeck and asked what that was for. He said that he only used that when anchoring in coral so I mentioned that in my experience I found chain to be a very effective 'anti-floatation' device and was well worth leaving between his anchor and rode at all times. 

      About then my neighbors started yelling about the running his motor and fuming out the community so I didn't want to be seen as enabling the idiot so just left it at that!

     

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Jesus.... what a mess. But if he had kinetic rope it would have been very fucking different.

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A good dynqmic rope has about 30% stretch, a normal 3 strand nylon about 20%.

There is a price difference.

3 strand holds even when chafed through 1 strand.

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I want a bit of give in my anchoring system to minimise should loading on the anchor and keep things comfortable. I don't want a massive elastic band shooting me all around the anchorage...

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On 2/27/2020 at 7:43 AM, Rain Man said:

Someone needs to update the beginner sailor's book and let people know that in a crowded anchorage it is SOP to do no more than 4:1 with rode and 3:1 with chain, on the understanding that if the wind shows up in the night more will be let out.  

 

On 2/29/2020 at 2:15 PM, bgytr said:

7 to 1 is what I was taught as the standard.  


I was taught 5:1.. which is what I go by... with chain.

Curious to know why you'd go 3:1 with chain RM?

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sounds like using bungee cords for spinnaker halyards

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1 hour ago, Kaptajnen said:

 


I was taught 5:1.. which is what I go by... with chain.

Curious to know why you'd go 3:1 with chain RM?

Think about the catenary.  The angle that the chain pulls on the anchor determines its holding ability.  The scope you need is the scope that will give the right pull angle.  In the area we live in the anchorages are all protected 360 degrees from waves, though many get some wind from one direction or another. The weight of the chain at 3:1 is sufficient to keep the anchor chain mostly lying on the bottom. 

Unless your boat is a barge with a ton of top hamper there won't be a lot of force created by the windage unless it is blowing full gale, in which case, what are you doing there anyway, and you can always let some more scope out if the wind comes up.

5:1 for chain and 7:1 for chain/rode is what you need in an open road-stead with strong wind and waves. Maybe even more scope than that in some situations.  That''s why the beginner sailing books use it, because it will work in all situations.  

Summary - it depends on the situation.  7:1 with chain is massive overkill in a 360 degree protected shallow anchorage with good holding, which is the situation I described above.  Using 7:1 or 5:1 in every situation because some beginner sailing book told you to demonstrates a lack of experience and understanding of how an anchor works.  When the lack of knowledge/experience of a skipper means that the anchorage can't accommodate more vessels because they insist on 7:1 scope when it isn't needed is rude.

I will admit that when I was new to this I did the same thing, and was told off by others enough times that I was forced to think it through and realize the error of my ways.

All chain rode illustration

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17 minutes ago, Rain Man said:

Think about the catenary.  The angle that the chain pulls on the anchor determines its holding ability.  The scope you need is the scope that will give the right pull angle.  In the area we live in the anchorages are all protected 360 degrees from waves, though many get some wind from one direction or another. The weight of the chain at 3:1 is sufficient to keep the anchor chain mostly lying on the bottom. 

Unless your boat is a barge with a ton of top hamper there won't be a lot of force created by the windage unless it is blowing full gale, in which case, what are you doing there anyway, and you can always let some more scope out if the wind comes up.

5:1 for chain and 7:1 for chain/rode is what you need in an open road-stead with strong wind and waves. Maybe even more scope than that in some situations.  That''s why the beginner sailing books use it, because it will work in all situations.  

Summary - it depends on the situation.  7:1 with chain is massive overkill in a 360 degree protected shallow anchorage with good holding, which is the situation I described above.  Using 7:1 or 5:1 in every situation because some beginner sailing book told you to demonstrates a lack of experience and understanding of how an anchor works.  When the lack of knowledge/experience of a skipper means that the anchorage can't accommodate more vessels because they insist on 7:1 scope when it isn't needed is rude.

I will admit that when I was new to this I did the same thing, and was told off by others enough times that I was forced to think it through and realize the error of my ways.

All chain rode illustration

well la dee da...

You can bitch about my inexperience for touting 7:1.  That's what I was taught at Maritime College 30 years ago when I was getting my unlimited tonnage merchant marine license.  Boat US and other boating sources also use 7:1 as a basis.  That's what I was taught as a junior in Annapolis by a Chesapeake Bay pilot 50 years ago, and have generally used this as a guide in my decades of experience since.  Maybe that's why I've just about never had trouble anchoring, and it's kinda funny watching the yahoos who put out 3:1 when an unsuspecting squall pops up and they end up on the lee shore- unless my boat happens to be in their drag path, or when I feel like helping em out so it doesn't cost em some serious trouble.  If somebody comes in after I've already anchored and tells me to pull in my scope, they can suck it. 

I would argue that making sure you have enough scope to handle it in a limited space anchorage is more important because the consequences of dragging are very close, and all around you.  If the anchorage is too crowded when you get there, then it is on you to find another anchorage.

  And yes you can get by with less if you are certain that circumstances allow it- which is just about never.

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7 minutes ago, bgytr said:

well la dee da...

You can bitch about my inexperience for touting 7:1.  That's what I was taught at Maritime College 30 years ago when I was getting my unlimited tonnage merchant marine license.  Boat US and other boating sources also use 7:1 as a basis.  That's what I was taught as a junior in Annapolis by a Chesapeake Bay pilot 50 years ago, and have generally used this as a guide in my decades of experience since.  Maybe that's why I've just about never had trouble anchoring, and it's kinda funny watching the yahoos who put out 3:1 when an unsuspecting squall pops up and they end up on the lee shore- unless my boat happens to be in their drag path, or when I feel like helping em out so it doesn't cost em some serious trouble.  If somebody comes in after I've already anchored and tells me to pull in my scope, they can suck it. 

I would argue that making sure you have enough scope to handle it in a limited space anchorage is more important because the consequences of dragging are very close, and all around you.  If the anchorage is too crowded when you get there, then it is on you to find another anchorage.

  And yes you can get by with less if you are certain that circumstances allow it- which is just about never.

140' of chain in 20' of water, mud bottom, 360 degree protection?  SMH.  Carry on.  I will yell at you too if you do that here.

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On 2/27/2020 at 2:43 AM, Rain Man said:

.......  We were both in about 25' of water.  I asked him how much scope he had out - he said 150' OF CHAIN.  I asked him what he thought that pile of chain sitting in a heap on the bottom was going to do for him.  

Someone needs to update the beginner sailor's book and let people know that in a crowded anchorage it is SOP to do no more than 4:1 with rode and 3:1 with chain, on the understanding that if the wind shows up in the night more will be let out.  

In 25 feet of water and 5 feet of freeboard the effective depth is 30 feet (assuming no tide consideration).  Based on this, 150 feet of chain is 5:1 and not inappropriate at all, especially if he was anchored prior to your arrival.  It's not your call to make as everyone needs to make their own call as to what it takes to keep their boat safe.  If he is there first and anchors at 5:1 you're the one that needs to take that into account.

With regard to "beginner sailor's book" and "SOP",  you may want to reconsider your thoughts.  I rely on Fatty Goodlander's 340 page book on anchoring.  He's been at anchor for over 50 years of his life and SOP for him is at least 5:1 with chain.  Evan Starzinger is also an advocate for 5:1......these guys are not beginners and know what can happen at 3:1.  A lot of times they're stopping the clown with 3:1 that's dragging down in front of them at 0300hrs.  I've watched 4 boats with 3:1 drag in the last couple of months.  Two of them were liveaboards with children who anchored, then left their boats to go ashore.  Both dragged as they were enjoying dinner and returned with an unpleasant situation on their hands.  Another was a captained charter boat who anchored, but broke loose at 2200hrs and dragged sideways between us and another boat.  We watched them until 0130hrs attempting to re-anchor (again at 3:1), making sure they were nowhere near us.  The last was a privately owned cat that dropped their anchor just off our stern one morning with about 3:1 in very settled and flat sea conditions......watched them drag 300 meters as we enjoyed our morning coffee before they realized what was happening.  3:1 might work at Party Cove on Walden Pond for you, but I would not be advocating 3:1 for everyone.......

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1 minute ago, Rain Man said:

140' of chain in 20' of water?  SMH.  Carry on.  I will yell at you too if you do that here.

yell all ya like.  shake your head, both of em, wanker. Ha just kidding, but you drag onto my boat if I was there first and you yell at me about my scope, I'll shake your friggin head right off your neck.

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1 minute ago, Huggy Bear Brown said:

In 25 feet of water and 5 feet of freeboard the effective depth is 30 feet (assuming no tide consideration).  Based on this, 150 feet of chain is 5:1 and not inappropriate at all, especially if he was anchored prior to your arrival.  It's not your call to make as everyone needs to make their own call as to what it takes to keep their boat safe.  If he is there first and anchors at 5:1 you're the one that needs to take that into account.

With regard to "beginner sailor's book" and "SOP",  you may want to reconsider your thoughts.  I rely on Fatty Goodlander's 340 page book on anchoring.  He's been at anchor for over 50 years of his life and SOP for him is at least 5:1 with chain.  Evan Starzinger is also an advocate for 5:1......these guys are not beginners and know what can happen at 3:1.  A lot of times they're stopping the clown with 3:1 that's dragging down in front of them at 0300hrs.  I've watched 4 boats with 3:1 drag in the last couple of months.  Two of them were liveaboards with children who anchored, then left their boats to go ashore.  Both dragged as they were enjoying dinner and returned with an unpleasant situation on their hands.  Another was a captained charter boat who anchored, but broke loose at 2200hrs and dragged sideways between us and another boat.  We watched them until 0130hrs attempting to re-anchor (again at 3:1), making sure they were nowhere near us.  The last was a privately owned cat that dropped their anchor just off our stern one morning with about 3:1 in very settled and flat sea conditions......watched them drag 300 meters as we enjoyed our morning coffee before they realized what was happening.  3:1 might work at Party Cove on Walden Pond for you, but I would not be advocating 3:1 for everyone.......

Agreed.  Re-read my post.  I am not advocating 3:1 in all situations - it is the minimum.  Good holding, 360 degree protection, no gale expected it is all you need.  Other situations need more.  Think about what 100' of chain in 20' of water looks like.  A big pile of chain lying on the bottom in a heap.

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17 minutes ago, bgytr said:

yell all ya like.  shake your head, both of em, wanker. Ha just kidding, but you drag onto my boat if I was there first and you yell at me about my scope, I'll shake your friggin head right off your neck.

If I drag onto you because I didn't increase scope when the wind came up, or didn't plan for the increased scope when I anchored, I would deserve it.

Most of the dragging I have seen in my area is due to poor holding ground, not lack of scope, or a situation where an inexperienced skipper anchors at 3:1 and the tide comes up 15' leaving them with much less scope.  I spent a night watching boats drag all night in a local anchorage with known poor holding - I had 30' of chain and 200' of line out in 20' of water and stayed up all night on anchor watch.  We were ok.  I didn't start with that much scope out. Again, the holding ground was poor.   The next time that situation arose in the same anchorage we moved to a different anchorage at dusk.  It is all experience.

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51 minutes ago, Rain Man said:

Agreed.  Re-read my post.  I am not advocating 3:1 in all situations - it is the minimum.  Good holding, 360 degree protection, no gale expected it is all you need.  Other situations need more.  Think about what 100' of chain in 20' of water looks like.  A big pile of chain lying on the bottom in a heap.

Doing the minimum is asking for trouble and thinking that you'll just get up and toss some more chain over the side in a squall is typically too late (and how do you get that snubber up to drop that chain when it's blowing 40 knots??).....all four of my 3:1 dragging examples happened in good sand with no more than a couple of 20-25 knot gusts.....  Just looked over my bow and my 150' of chain is nicely stretched out in front of my boat in 10 to 15 knots of breeze, just like every other boat from around the world that is anchored here.  No piles are on the bottom in a heap.  As some mentioned earlier, 3:1 for lunch works fine.

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Another pet peeve, since we are on the topic, is people who don't set their anchors.  They just drop the anchor into the water off the bow and crack open a beer.   Those folks often drag too.

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30 minutes ago, Huggy Bear Brown said:

Doing the minimum is asking for trouble and thinking that you'll just get up and toss some more chain over the side in a squall is typically too late (and how do you get that snubber up to drop that chain when it's blowing 40 knots??).....all four of my 3:1 dragging examples happened in good sand with no more than a couple of 20-25 knot gusts.....  Just looked over my bow and my 150' of chain is nicely stretched out in front of my boat in 10 to 15 knots of breeze, just like every other boat from around the world that is anchored here.  No piles are on the bottom in a heap.  As some mentioned earlier, 3:1 for lunch works fine.

Again, we are in a different world here.  Most anchorages are surrounded by 150' trees and/or mountains.   100m of fetch is a lot.  Anchorages with poor holding or wind gusts getting into the anchorage are a rarity.  Your perspective is coming from what sounds like an relatively open roadstead.  We don't have many like that here.  Our problem is getting all the boats into the anchorage because they tend to be small.  It is very common to use a shore line and wanting to swing on your 7:1 scope chain anchor using up precious anchoring space while everyone else has a shore line will earn you a lot of verbal abuse. 

image.jpeg.bdad335499c718652c85a25af4aeacdb.jpeg

Image result for smugglers cove

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18 minutes ago, Rain Man said:

Again, we are in a different world here. 

Plus many anchorages are deep - you're not setting 5:1 scope in 75'+ of water. There's also scaling effects - pulling 50' of chain bar tight happens much sooner than 250', so you maintain that catenary curve much longer in deeper water, even if the scope is lower on paper.

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3 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Agreed.  Re-read my post.  I am not advocating 3:1 in all situations - it is the minimum.  Good holding, 360 degree protection, no gale expected it is all you need.  Other situations need more.  Think about what 100' of chain in 20' of water looks like.  A big pile of chain lying on the bottom in a heap.

it is always the unexpected gales that get you

one has to be prepared for the unexpected

we had a common summer thunder storm blow 80 knots sustained one sunny afternoon

no warning it just blew in producing 5-6 ft waves on a 1000 ft fetch from shore

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15 minutes ago, nota said:

it is always the unexpected gales that get you

one has to be prepared for the unexpected

we had a common summer thunder storm blow 80 knots sustained one sunny afternoon

no warning it just blew in producing 5-6 ft waves on a 1000 ft fetch from shore

Yes, sailing has unexpected weather.  Shit can happen.  I am sure that Mr. 7:1 chain Contessa 32 guy in the quiet anchorage would have used that argument had we chosen to pursue it with him.  For some people, leaving the dock is a dangerous game, because they aren't able to properly assess the probability of such things happening, and, for example, leave their boat unattended on 3:1 scope when there are big thunderclouds in the area, or don't bother to add extra scope at night when the tide is rising and the forecast is uncertain.  For those people, 7:1 scope in all situations is a necessity.  

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3 hours ago, Rain Man said:

 Think about what 100' of chain in 20' of water looks like.  A big pile of chain lying on the bottom in a heap.

Or stretched out.

Pulled into a busy anchorage, depth of 25m according to the sounder. So dropped 80m of chain while slowly backing up. And up, and up. Other boats looking on, wondering what the fuck. Rattle rattle, backing up more. Finally got her set, snug and tight, just 70m from where we started.

Shut things down for a while, turned sounder back on, 6m of water. Bugger, sounder playing up. No wonder everyone was watching. Still good talk over beers with some of the other boats that evening. They all wondered what weather system they hadn't heard about was on its way. :lol:

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5 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Agreed.  Re-read my post.  I am not advocating 3:1 in all situations - it is the minimum.  Good holding, 360 degree protection, no gale expected it is all you need.  Other situations need more.  Think about what 100' of chain in 20' of water looks like.  A big pile of chain lying on the bottom in a heap.

Bullshit. I back away as the bow person is paying out the chain. Once she signals the correct amount, I put the engine in idle, she sets the chain claw on the nylon snubber then I back down hard to set the anchor. She and my chartplotter let me know when the anchor is firmly embedded.

Tell me, oh wise & experienced one, where my pile of chain is sitting?

Oh yes I anchor at 5:1 on all chain. If you don't like it then there are many more anchorages out there.

FKT

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32 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Bullshit. I back away as the bow person is paying out the chain. Once she signals the correct amount, I put the engine in idle, she sets the chain claw on the nylon snubber then I back down hard to set the anchor. She and my chartplotter let me know when the anchor is firmly embedded.

Tell me, oh wise & experienced one, where my pile of chain is sitting?

Oh yes I anchor at 5:1 on all chain. If you don't like it then there are many more anchorages out there.

FKT

Sounds like you are not one of the ones that just drops the anchor, pays out the chain to 7:1, goes back to the cockpit and cracks a frosty.  Your extra 80' of chain is lying in a nice line along the bottom.  Well done!

Seriously, though, if I lived where you live, I would do the same.  I cruised the Whitsundays, there isn't enough chain on the boat for some of the anchoring situations there.  Where I live, you often don't need it.  See the pictures above.  See the two boats swinging free in the bottom picture?  They are in about 20' of water.  Think they both have 100' of chain out.  Nyet.  Standard procedure here.  

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6 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Again, we are in a different world here.  Most anchorages are surrounded by 150' trees and/or mountains.   100m of fetch is a lot.  Anchorages with poor holding or wind gusts getting into the anchorage are a rarity.  Your perspective is coming from what sounds like an relatively open roadstead.  We don't have many like that here.  Our problem is getting all the boats into the anchorage because they tend to be small.  It is very common to use a shore line and wanting to swing on your 7:1 scope chain anchor using up precious anchoring space while everyone else has a shore line will earn you a lot of verbal abuse. 

image.jpeg.bdad335499c718652c85a25af4aeacdb.jpeg

Image result for smugglers cove

I once anchored in Smuggler's Cove in a fairly big crowd. 

Everybody was nice and well-spaced and swinging similar shortish arcs.  A 28'er came in late, proceeded to let out about 300' of anchor line, back down through the fleet and dinghy ashore.  While he was at drinks and dinner, the current changed direction and his perky little yacht proceeded to wrap its anchor line around 7 other boats including mine, making a nice little yacht bundle.  When he came back to his boat after dark, 7 pissed crews were in the process of detaching his boat from his anchor and unweaving the whole mess. 

It took until about 1 a.m. as the captured 7 now had our anchor lines nicely laced together.  

The guy decided to motor off and anchor someplace else.  Fine by us.  

Pretty sure he wasn't using any fancy kinetic rode though.

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I tend to call the 3:1 crowd "tweeners" - not beginners, but enough experience to think they've figured the whole thing out and have nothing else to learn - a bit like teenagers.

The real problem with the "use inadequate scope (3:1) until we need more and then everyone let more go" - is that as well all know it happens at 0 dark 30, when everyone's gone to bed - and now the sitshow starts with some recognizing what's going on, while others are still asleep until someone starts knocking on the hull. More importantly though, is that whole philosophy (wait until you need to then put more out) - requires you to be dependent upon someone else for your own safety - i.e if the guy behind you decides he's fine but you want to add some more, then what. One thing I learned from riding motorcycles for most of my life, is NEVER put your own safety in the hands of someone else!

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Few people have complained about having too heavy an anchor when it's blowing, or a choice of anchors when the bottom is different.

Few have complained about having "too long" a rode when it's deeper than usual. 

We carry 2 main anchors; a 20kg Bruce and a 20kg Spade, and the primary rode is 40' of 3/8" chain on 400' of 3 strand 3/4" with a windlass back up is 200' of 5/8. 

We even have forward and sidescan sonar to assess the bottom conditions, never fun to have swung over a ledge at high tide... 

 

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20 hours ago, mayday12 said:

I tend to call the 3:1 crowd "tweeners" - not beginners, but enough experience to think they've figured the whole thing out and have nothing else to learn - a bit like teenagers.

The real problem with the "use inadequate scope (3:1) until we need more and then everyone let more go" - is that as well all know it happens at 0 dark 30, when everyone's gone to bed - and now the sitshow starts with some recognizing what's going on, while others are still asleep until someone starts knocking on the hull. More importantly though, is that whole philosophy (wait until you need to then put more out) - requires you to be dependent upon someone else for your own safety - i.e if the guy behind you decides he's fine but you want to add some more, then what. One thing I learned from riding motorcycles for most of my life, is NEVER put your own safety in the hands of someone else!

Anyone who uses 3:1 all the time falls into your definition above.  Anyone who doesn't recognize the conditions/situations where 3:1 is appropriate and uses more all the time because the book says so is a beginner.  

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5 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Anyone who uses 3:1 all the time falls into your definition above.  Anyone who doesn't recognize the conditions/situations where 3:1 is appropriate and uses more all the time because the book says so is a beginner coward or a person who likes a good night's sleep...  

FIFY.

Thank Dog that I don't have to deal with crowded anchorages and people who want to tell me what I need to do to satisfy my desire to safeguard my boat by putting out "too much" chain.

Look, you're not going to convince anyone, I'm pretty sure of that.

FKT

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11 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

FIFY.

Thank Dog that I don't have to deal with crowded anchorages and people who want to tell me what I need to do to satisfy my desire to safeguard my boat by putting out "too much" chain.

Look, you're not going to convince anyone, I'm pretty sure of that.

FKT

I think you're right.  You have convinced me.  I will quote you the next time I'm the first one into a crowded anchorage around here.  I'll drop my 100' of anchor chain in 16' of water (have to allow for the height of the roller above the water) and then yell at anyone who is in my circle "look, some expert-sounding guy on the internet said I had to do this - he goes by Fah Kiew Tu and you can find him on Sailing Anarchy".    Should shut them up.

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14 minutes ago, Rain Man said:

I think you're right.  You have convinced me.  I will quote you the next time I'm the first one into a crowded anchorage around here.  I'll drop my 100' of anchor chain in 16' of water (have to allow for the height of the roller above the water) and then yell at anyone who is in my circle "look, some expert-sounding guy on the internet said I had to do this - he goes by Fah Kiew Tu and you can find him on Sailing Anarchy".    Should shut them up.

Whatever.

Of course most of us wouldn't do that because we'd know we'd be fucking up the people already there. We'd go somewhere else where there was room. In fact that's precisely what we do.

But hey, do it your way. Just don't come and whine to me that I've too much chain out unless you're also prepared to take 100% responsibility for the result if the boat drags at 0200 on a moonless night after I shorten up to what *you* think I need. Which of course you won't do and in fact can't do.

Crowded First World problem basically.

FKT

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16 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Whatever.

Of course most of us wouldn't do that because we'd know we'd be fucking up the people already there. We'd go somewhere else where there was room. In fact that's precisely what we do.

But hey, do it your way. Just don't come and whine to me that I've too much chain out unless you're also prepared to take 100% responsibility for the result if the boat drags at 0200 on a moonless night after I shorten up to what *you* think I need. Which of course you won't do and in fact can't do.

Crowded First World problem basically.

FKT

Of course, the next thing is that people would say after I told them about my 5:1 chain scope is, "Hey, we know you, you're so and so, you've been sailing around here for 40 years - are you kidding me?"  At that point I think all I could do is shrug and crack open a frosty.  

Your point about first world problems is bang on though.

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On 3/7/2020 at 4:28 AM, Rain Man said:

I think you're right.  You have convinced me.  I will quote you the next time I'm the first one into a crowded anchorage around here.  I'll drop my 100' of anchor chain in 16' of water (have to allow for the height of the roller above the water) and then yell at anyone who is in my circle "look, some expert-sounding guy on the internet said I had to do this - he goes by Fah Kiew Tu and you can find him on Sailing Anarchy".    Should shut them up.

No need for so much drama.....If cruisers know what they're doing there is no need to make sure they are not over your anchor.  Just left a crowded anchorage last week where we were anchored at 6:1 in some stiff trades.  A boat anchored off my starboard bow, also with about 6:1 and I was happy as hell as I knew we were all going to be safe that night.  In the late afternoon I hopped in the dinghy and took a run to his boat to let him know I was leaving in the morning, how much scope I had out, and where I thought my anchor was located.  He gave a thumb's up and said he would fire up his engine and give us enough room to get the anchor up if he needed to.  Next morning the wind had shifted slightly and he was now directly over my anchor, but with his engine in idle gear he moved enough to give us plenty of room to haul ours aboard.  Friendly waves from both boats and we were on our way.

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