tillerman

Absolutely positively ILCA

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I thought I would start a new thread where people can say positive things about ILCA (the organization) and ILCAs (the boats.)

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Here is a link to the ILCA Announcements where you can keep in touch with all the latest news from ILCA on new builders, new equipment, ILCA class rules etc. etc.

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LOL, well done Tiller. 

Um, uh, they are absolutely positively good at picking pockets and lying!!

But they do apparently care about boobies so they must be OK. https://www.ilca.org/home

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49 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL, well done Tiller. 

Um, uh, they are absolutely positively good at picking pockets and lying!!

But they do apparently care about boobies so they must be OK. https://www.ilca.org/home

Who doesn't like boobies?
 

 

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I have a feeling Wess and Tillerman will dominate this space. Bosom anti-ILCA buddies to the end! 

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15 hours ago, Wess said:

LOL, well done Tiller. 

Um, uh, they are absolutely positively good at picking pockets and lying!!

But they do apparently care about boobies so they must be OK. https://www.ilca.org/home

Ha!  you got me to click on one of your links!  Nice job.

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9 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Ha!  you got me to click on one of your links!  Nice job.

Its Monday; you get a free pass LOL!  Glad I put a smile on your face.

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A thought experiment:

If one were to buy a new boat in the USA next year or so, and the choice would be between an ILCA dinghy (manufactured in the USA by whoever gets the nod) and an LPE boat (without ILCA sticker), the choice would be relatively straightforward, me thinks.

However in Europe, perhaps a more difficult choice:

For the weekend sailor, like Heini W, an LPE boat might work, but he wouldn't be able to sail the boat in certain 'bigger' events organized by ILCA, like the Masters Worlds; however, he could charter a 'legal' boat just for the occasion.

For the aspiring Olympian, who intends to race in multiple international events the choice may be more difficult. Presumably, there will be a second European factory that will compete with LPE and would market (ILCA) legal boats. To make this topic less complex, let's keep price differences out of the discussion for now.

Anyone willing to think this through a bit further?

'

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would the aspiring European be able to use the ILCA carbon radial lower section in TLC events?  You'd think that someone with aspirations to race on a world-scale would want to use the spars everyone else is using

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3 hours ago, Wavedancer II said:

... the weekend sailor, like Heini W, an LPE boat might work, but he wouldn't be able to sail the boat in certain 'bigger' events organized by ILCA, 

In theory in the UK wouldn't be able to sail in any of the UKLA supported open series events, Nationals or Masters, any more than it would be allowed to compete with a replica sail. Basically club sailing only, and that, like replica sails, only if allowed by the club, unless the LPCA persuades clubs to put on events for their class.

In practice, who knows, the UKLA appears to be keeping itself as far distant from the mess as it can. 

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Absolutely positive news for ILCA members in the US. PSA made ILCAs will now be available at Colie Sails.

2024513865_ScreenShot2020-03-07at1_41_55PM.thumb.png.e6fbc4ee65a0c5bdb5c292c8e53eea6b.png

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3 hours ago, JMP said:

PSA's global dealer list has expanded quite a bit: https://psasailing.com.au/pages/global-dealers

Strange how PSA gets to build out a dealer network, while the 7 other builders don't even have a contract, or tooling, or any hope to have any product for the summer season 2020.

Definitely not abusing their self created monopoly at all.

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Is Laser creating a new business model , neither SMOD (single manufacturer one design) nor MMOD (multi manufacturer one design) but in fact SMOD-TOB?

Single Manufacture One Design Token Other Builders.

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Its an UNFRANDly PSA SMOD.  Break out your checkbooks NA and EU.  WS, ILCA, and PSA want their money! 

This is sooo absolutely positively ILCA!!  :D

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Hmm. So PSA are offering their product everywhere. Wasn’t that the idea? Would it have been better to have no supplier at all while builders are established - which some are thinking will take years? I suppose 7 instantaneous and simultaneous builders would have been best, and fucking ILCA should have been able to do that...anybody could... right?

For us grassroots guys, this is great news - the more builders/dealers/distributors, the better! Those truly in need of a new ILCA boat will have lots of availability, thereby putting their used boats on the grassroots market! More ass in the class, or butts in boats, or hineys on chineys or whatever. All good! 

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6 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

Strange how PSA gets to build out a dealer network, while the 7 other builders don't even have a contract, or tooling, or any hope to have any product for the summer season 2020.

Definitely not abusing their self created monopoly at all.

The above is false. 

Blatant Echo, please stop making false statements.

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8 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

Strange how PSA gets to build out a dealer network, while the 7 other builders don't even have a contract, or tooling, or any hope to have any product for the summer season 2020.

Definitely not abusing their self created monopoly at all.

Good point. Looks like PSA/Global Sailing are finally achieving their global domination of the world Laser market that they have been working towards ever since GS advertised for dealers in Europe and bought Bruce Kirby's design rights.

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On 3/7/2020 at 3:15 PM, tillerman said:

Absolutely positive news for ILCA members in the US. PSA made ILCAs will now be available at Colie Sails.

2024513865_ScreenShot2020-03-07at1_41_55PM.thumb.png.e6fbc4ee65a0c5bdb5c292c8e53eea6b.png

This is interesting.  If PSA can only build so many boats, (as others have stated) it will be interesting to see how many of these dealers will get boats to sell and how soon.

A container of 24 boats takes 40 days to get to NA.  Maybe a couple of these guys split a container in half or 3rd's and they're off to the races?  Lot's of moving parts, but at least things are moving.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

This is interesting.  If PSA can only build so many boats, (as others have stated) it will be interesting to see how many of these dealers will get boats to sell and how soon.

A container of 24 boats takes 40 days to get to NA.  Maybe a couple of these guys split a container in half or 3rd's and they're off to the races?  Lot's of moving parts, but at least things are moving.

 It's going to be interesting to see how quickly demand ramps up, and whether there is a large unserved market in NA.

 Assuming it exists, then AFAIK it's still unclear whether  LP's failure to serve that market was due to malice, incompetence, stupidity... or  some combination thereof.  Maybe no-one cares, anyway.

Cheers,

               W.

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On 3/1/2020 at 8:53 PM, bill4 said:

I have a feeling Wess and Tillerman will dominate this space. Bosom anti-ILCA buddies to the end! 

Well there are enough bosoms on the ILCA site to go around, no need to buddy up.

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I ran into a VX One sailor at the store on Saturday.  He's a previous Laser sailor and started asking me about available boats.  He made a pretty good point in that once COVID lockdowns begin to lift single handed events will have a much better chance of getting off than crewed boat events.  We're already beginning discussions about keeping summer regattas, but cancelling the planned social events around the regatta.  Could we see a resurgence of Laser/ILCA dingy ownership and fleet participation out of this?

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10 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I ran into a VX One sailor at the store on Saturday.  He's a previous Laser sailor and started asking me about available boats.  He made a pretty good point in that once COVID lockdowns begin to lift single handed events will have a much better chance of getting off than crewed boat events.  We're already beginning discussions about keeping summer regattas, but cancelling the planned social events around the regatta.  Could we see a resurgence of Laser/ILCA dingy ownership and fleet participation out of this?

I agree that some of the multi-class regattas might well be run as multi-class singlehanded regattas. That should help all single-handed classes not just ILCAs. Whether that focus will create a "resurgence" of any single-handed classes this year, I seriously doubt. I think we will be doing well if we have any regattas which have turnouts that are even close to what they were in the last year or two. Suspect there are a lot of folk who are at high risk, for various reasons, who will be avoiding any group activities until there is a vaccine for the virus.

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11 hours ago, tillerman said:

I agree that some of the multi-class regattas might well be run as multi-class singlehanded regattas. That should help all single-handed classes not just ILCAs. Whether that focus will create a "resurgence" of any single-handed classes this year, I seriously doubt. I think we will be doing well if we have any regattas which have turnouts that are even close to what they were in the last year or two. Suspect there are a lot of folk who are at high risk, for various reasons, who will be avoiding any group activities until there is a vaccine for the virus.

Yeah.  I was reminded yesterday.  "we can sail all we want, but if the clubs aren't open we're still shut down."    That said I'd argue, (in a nice way) that the usual single hander and competitive sailor is less likely to have a compromised health condition than most. 

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So all of that argues in favor of the Aero or The Laser Class no; and not ILCA!?!

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37 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Yeah.  I was reminded yesterday.  "we can sail all we want, but if the clubs aren't open we're still shut down."    That said I'd argue, (in a nice way) that the usual single hander and competitive sailor is less likely to have a compromised health condition than most. 

that's true, but the whole point of the stay-at-home order is not to protect the healthy people - it's to prevent the potential spread of the virus so that it won't quickly reach too many vulnerable populations, and then overwhelm the healthcare systems. So we need not think only of the people directly involved (who are generally healthy) but the people they might eventually come into contact with. That said, I think some events can be managed in ways that allow for singlehanded sailing races to occur, the competitors just need to be mindful of social distancing on shore and to some extent on the water. Given a big enough boat lot and a couple of ramps or a large beach launch area, it may very well be manageable. Or, at least no different from going to the grocery store.

Also your analogy is kind of like prohibition which never actually made it illegal to drink alcohol, you just couldn't buy, sell, or possess it. It's not against the rules to sail, you just can't launch or come to shore

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9 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

that's true, but the whole point of the stay-at-home order is not to protect the healthy people - it's to prevent the potential spread of the virus so that it won't quickly reach too many vulnerable populations, and then overwhelm the healthcare systems. So we need not think only of the people directly involved (who are generally healthy) but the people they might eventually come into contact with. That said, I think some events can be managed in ways that allow for singlehanded sailing races to occur, the competitors just need to be mindful of social distancing on shore and to some extent on the water. Given a big enough boat lot and a couple of ramps or a large beach launch area, it may very well be manageable. Or, at least no different from going to the grocery store.

Also your analogy is kind of like prohibition which never actually made it illegal to drink alcohol, you just couldn't buy, sell, or possess it. It's not against the rules to sail, you just can't launch or come to shore

There is also the rescue boat component. Hard to pull people out of the water with social distancing. 

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

So all of that argues in favor of the Aero or The Laser Class no; and not ILCA!?!

True, but I prefer the ILCA.

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4 hours ago, dgmckim said:

Also your analogy is kind of like prohibition which never actually made it illegal to drink alcohol, you just couldn't buy, sell, or possess it. It's not against the rules to sail, you just can't launch or come to shore

No; in MD its actually illegal to sail.  Even alone on a Laser.  We can however walk around the club all we want.  Could even rig the boat.  And the cops could do nothing to you.  But as soon as you set sail... they can cite you.  Even arrest you.  Even seize the boat.  I kid you not and our water nazis in DNR and Marine Police were active in doing this!  Bit of a tangent obviously but the stupidity of some of the state orders are... well at least laughable in their absurdity... if good for nothing else.

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38 minutes ago, Wess said:

No; in MD its actually illegal to sail.  Even alone on a Laser.  We can however walk around the club all we want.  Could even rig the boat.  And the cops could do nothing to you.  But as soon as you set sail... they can cite you.  Even arrest you.  Even seize the boat.  I kid you not and our water nazis in DNR and Marine Police were active in doing this!  Bit of a tangent obviously but the stupidity of some of the state orders are... well at least laughable in their absurdity... if good for nothing else.

oh wow. that's not the case in North Carolina. yikes

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56 minutes ago, Wess said:

No; in MD its actually illegal to sail.  Even alone on a Laser.  We can however walk around the club all we want.  Could even rig the boat.  And the cops could do nothing to you.  But as soon as you set sail... they can cite you.  Even arrest you.  Even seize the boat.  I kid you not and our water nazis in DNR and Marine Police were active in doing this!  Bit of a tangent obviously but the stupidity of some of the state orders are... well at least laughable in their absurdity... if good for nothing else.

Don’t worry Wess. Bill Gates will let you know when you can sail. 

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1 hour ago, Old Yeller said:

Don’t worry Wess. Bill Gates will let you know when you can sail. 

I get your sarcasm.  You seem to dismiss this disease (judging from your other posts in other threads).  All I can say is that I work in the field and I think this virus should be taken very seriously.  I would equally agree that the extent to which the Constitution and civil liberties have been trampled on and some 17 million (and fast growing) Americans - and mostly the working poor and middle class - have been literally forced out of job by the government (and not compensated fully for that) is stunning.  I bury this here because I don't do politics or science with internet idiots but its even worse when you consider that when the full truth is in covid-19 will have killed fewer Americans than the flu did in the 2018 season gives more credence to your point.  So I have empathy for your MAGA view even if I am not a fan of the orange hair man.  Maybe we have common ground here.  We are all adults and can make our own decisions about what is best for our lives.  I would urge everyone to be very careful about covid but at the same time I can agree that when a government can destroy the lives and businesses of so many Americans and and not compensate them for it there is a serious problem with government. 

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On 4/14/2020 at 9:41 AM, RobbieB said:

I ran into a VX One sailor at the store on Saturday.  He's a previous Laser sailor and started asking me about available boats.  He made a pretty good point in that once COVID lockdowns begin to lift single handed events will have a much better chance of getting off than crewed boat events.  We're already beginning discussions about keeping summer regattas, but cancelling the planned social events around the regatta.  Could we see a resurgence of Laser/ILCA dingy ownership and fleet participation out of this?

From my medical perspective, we will be into 2021 and still social distancing absent a vaccine. This but aint goin nowhere .

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Hey I thought Tillerman had moved on to that  other dinghy...what gives ?

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Just to be clear. I don’t “dismiss” the virus. It’s obviously a very nasty bug. I am skeptical of the propaganda and clear media bias which has all but ignored any expert opinion that doesn’t favor total shutdowns and eventual vaccination and tracking. For me, this  is not a “MAGA” view. I couldn’t care less about him or any of the other sociopaths. Two wings of the same bird of prey. Hang them all as far as I’m concerned. 

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1 hour ago, bibs said:

Hey I thought Tillerman had moved on to that  other dinghy...what gives ?

It is true that I am a proud owner of that other dinghy,  the one that beat the Laser in the Olympic Trials.

But I still own a Laser and am a member of the Laser class.

Who knows. I might sail the Laser at a regatta again one day. Anything is possible. But I agree with you, bibs. I don't think I am going to be doing any regattas until we have a vaccine for the #TrumpVirus.

In the meantime, I find the Laser makes an excellent shelf in the garage for storing my RS Aero spars and sails.

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On 3/2/2020 at 8:39 PM, Wavedancer II said:

A thought experiment:

If one were to buy a new boat in the USA next year or so, and the choice would be between an ILCA dinghy (manufactured in the USA by whoever gets the nod) and an LPE boat (without ILCA sticker), the choice would be relatively straightforward, me thinks.

However in Europe, perhaps a more difficult choice:

For the weekend sailor, like Heini W, an LPE boat might work, but he wouldn't be able to sail the boat in certain 'bigger' events organized by ILCA, like the Masters Worlds; however, he could charter a 'legal' boat just for the occasion.

For the aspiring Olympian, who intends to race in multiple international events the choice may be more difficult. Presumably, there will be a second European factory that will compete with LPE and would market (ILCA) legal boats. To make this topic less complex, let's keep price differences out of the discussion for now.

Anyone willing to think this through a bit further?

'

Ask your friendly local ILCA dealer

704551508_ilcadealer.thumb.jpg.f1aa922364c8bcecbf76522a8f9c0e02.jpg

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2021 Laser North American Championship will be
held at the St Francis Yacht Club July 14-18, 2021.

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The 2021 Midwinter's East Regatta will be held from February 25-28 at Key Biscayne Yacht Club

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Somehow I suspect the covidiots will have something to say about that @VWAP but I sure hope those regattas come off as scheduled and planned.

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16 hours ago, Wess said:

Somehow I suspect the covidiots will have something to say about that @VWAP but I sure hope those regattas come off as scheduled and planned.

February is a long way out.  I hope to God we have a handle on this by then.  If not, Biden will shut the country down for sure once he takes office.

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13 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

February is a long way out.  I hope to God we have a handle on this by then.  If not, Biden will shut the country down for sure once he takes office.

Covid will disappear from the news cycle when it is no longer politically useful. 

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47 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

February is a long way out.  I hope to God we have a handle on this by then.  If not, Biden will shut the country down for sure once he takes office.

Not happening.  Strictly my opinion and not that of any organization I work for.

This is an odd thing for me to say given I work in the space but this is one drug (vaccine) that I would not want to take given the standards being applied.  Doubt there will be one by Feb, and a virus being a virus it ain't going away no matter what behaviors you changeno matter what the press tells you... unless and until there is either a highly effective vaccine or widespread natural immunity.  But if there is one (vaccine) given those standards and the rushed nature of its development and therefore limited safety profile... and specific to my age and health and lack of any covid comorbidity risk factors... I would not want to take it.  And I have never ever said that about any drug or vaccine ever.  Reserve my right to change my mind as data emerges on whatever vaccine ultimately gets approved.  But based solely on the public information available thus far... no thanks.

I am stunned by the extent science has been politicized both by the press and many of those in government.  Makes me wish I had stayed in industry.  Suspect could do more good there unshackled from the insanity.

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

This is an odd thing for me to say given I work in the space but this is one drug (vaccine) that I would not want to take given the standards being applied.  

I have a very good friend who worked for big pharma for 15+ years, (retired about 4 yrs ago).  She said there's no way she would take, (or let any family members take) any vaccine that gets popped out with in the next year.  Says the time frame is way too tight for even basic safety protocols to be followed.  It's a classic case of big pharma chasing big money...

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30 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I have a very good friend who worked for big pharma for 15+ years, (retired about 4 yrs ago).  She said there's no way she would take, (or let any family members take) any vaccine that gets popped out with in the next year.  Says the time frame is way too tight for even basic safety protocols to be followed.  It's a classic case of big pharma chasing big money...

I agree with her but...

And we are miles off the beaten track here but your last line is absurdly uninformed, and incorrect in its implication. 

The fact is that pharma - big or small - does not set the standards for a drug or vaccine to be approved.  Government regulators do... Government "doctors/administrators" who love the limelight and funding that a crisis (self created to some extent) provides.  Hello Dr. F.  The ultimate arbitrator of if and when and against what standards any vaccine comes to be are government regulators hired over the past 20 years and who live for a crisis like this.  And guess what... in the case of something like this if the government orders you to take a vaccine... legally you will not have the option to say no. Not saying they will go there but the law is clear on this and given how far the government has already gone (federal, state, and even municipality) my guess is we don't have a choice.  Don't blame pharma.  They design and develop and submit data.  The government approves or rejects and then mandates or not.  And I bet you 2:1 that it any vaccine will be mandatory for those in the military which makes me sick for my kid who serves.  Those most healthy and at the least risk of covid will be forced into essentially human test subject roles.  You watch.

If you had told me 2 years ago covid would happen my response would have been... "Yea DUH it already has a few times on a smaller scale, ala MERS, SARS, etc..."  And yea that also means this will happen again.

If you told me that US federal, state and municipal governments would do what they have done and the citizenry would stand by and allow it I would have bet against with everything I owned.  But never underestimate a press and governments love of a crisis I guess. 

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He’s not off the mark at all. Captured agencies....Billions thrown around by interested parties worldwide. but I’ll resume my lost  cause on another forum. It’s been awhile since I’ve rolled in that gutter.I love lasers ..... and ILCAs 

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19 hours ago, Wess said:

I agree with her but...

And we are miles off the beaten track here but your last line is absurdly uninformed, and incorrect in its implication. 

The fact is that pharma - big or small - does not set the standards for a drug or vaccine to be approved.  Government regulators do... Government "doctors/administrators" who love the limelight and funding that a crisis (self created to some extent) provides.  Hello Dr. F.  The ultimate arbitrator of if and when and against what standards any vaccine comes to be are government regulators hired over the past 20 years and who live for a crisis like this.  And guess what... in the case of something like this if the government orders you to take a vaccine... legally you will not have the option to say no. Not saying they will go there but the law is clear on this and given how far the government has already gone (federal, state, and even municipality) my guess is we don't have a choice.  Don't blame pharma.  They design and develop and submit data.  The government approves or rejects and then mandates or not.  And I bet you 2:1 that it any vaccine will be mandatory for those in the military which makes me sick for my kid who serves.  Those most healthy and at the least risk of covid will be forced into essentially human test subject roles.  You watch.

If you had told me 2 years ago covid would happen my response would have been... "Yea DUH it already has a few times on a smaller scale, ala MERS, SARS, etc..."  And yea that also means this will happen again.

If you told me that US federal, state and municipal governments would do what they have done and the citizenry would stand by and allow it I would have bet against with everything I owned.  But never underestimate a press and governments love of a crisis I guess. 

Old Yeller understood my post.  They are chasing the government $$$'s.  The government is loosening protocols and controls in the pandemic panic and big pharma is all over it.  It's like the "Cannonball Run" with Dom Delouis and all the other nutty characters.  Hopefully one of these "darts over the shoulder" will be the ticket, but history and science does not support this being successful for quite some time...  Fingers crossed and hope someone pulls a rabbit from their hat!

 

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19 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

He’s not off the mark at all. Captured agencies....Billions thrown around by interested parties worldwide. but I’ll resume my lost  cause on another forum. It’s been awhile since I’ve rolled in that gutter.I love lasers ..... and ILCAs 

Oh man.  You dip your toe over there?  

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One would hope a sailing blog would be safe from COVID. 

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On 4/15/2020 at 1:26 PM, Wess said:

No; in MD its actually illegal to sail.  Even alone on a Laser.  We can however walk around the club all we want.  Could even rig the boat.  And the cops could do nothing to you.  But as soon as you set sail... they can cite you.  Even arrest you.  Even seize the boat.  I kid you not and our water nazis in DNR and Marine Police were active in doing this!  Bit of a tangent obviously but the stupidity of some of the state orders are... well at least laughable in their absurdity... if good for nothing else.

I have friends sailing out of SSA regularly, weekends, Wednesday nights and practice sessions following their Covid plan.

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2 hours ago, dburchfiel said:

I have friends sailing out of SSA regularly, weekends, Wednesday nights and practice sessions following their Covid plan.

That was then - my post is 100% accurate on the date it was posted - and this is now. Back then covid would apparently attack you on your Laser.  In MD but not in any other state. But not now. Now covid will just attack you in MD in a church or in a bar after 10pm. But not in VA. Or WV. Or in Walmart or Home Depot at any hour any place. I kid you not. But we are off in the tall grass. Let’s just hope some regattas actually happen. And that Robbie figures out how drugs get developed and approved and contracting works. :P

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4 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Oh man.  You dip your toe over there?  

Occasionally I’ll get bored and invade their safe space.. reminds me how lucky I am not to live in Portlandia.

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3 hours ago, Bill5 said:

One would hope a sailing blog would be safe from COVID. 

I have mine tested weekly just to make sure.

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24 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I have mine tested weekly just to make sure.

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Careful. Some might see that as a challenge. MD Gov Hogan said no fireworks. You should have seen our river communities on July 4th. Spectacular!! All the Facebook memes the next day had pics of our fireworks. “Gov says no fireworks; MD says challenge accepted.”
 

So clean site you say....

 

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12 minutes ago, Wavedancer II said:

As of 8/11, it looks like the Radial division has reached its limit.

One can still register for the 'Full' and 4.7 classes.

Should be good event

 

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D12 will be having our first post CIVOD event on September 26-27 at the Lake Norman Yacht Club in North Carolina.  This is a great, open venue that is perfect for social distancing and camping.  We're expecting a large turnout across all 3 rigs and all indications are this show will go on.  Check Regatta Network for NOR and registration.

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10 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

D12 will be having our first post CIVOD event on September 26-27 at the Lake Norman Yacht Club in North Carolina.  This is a great, open venue that is perfect for social distancing and camping.  We're expecting a large turnout across all 3 rigs and all indications are this show will go on.  Check Regatta Network for NOR and registration.

All the ILCA BS aside its great to see folks sailing and I hope this come off well.  But you do need to learn how to spell Covid... he says as the pot calling the kettle black.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

All the ILCA BS aside its great to see folks sailing and I hope this come off well.  But you do need to learn how to spell Covid... he says as the pot calling the kettle black.

Crapid

 

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6 hours ago, torrid said:

Haven't you read?  Dyslexia is one of the side effects.

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Better watch out, the PC police might be watching....

 

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