VWAP

Green Boat?

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I have thought about this a bit lately, as hemp is being used in more automotive applications.  I'm assuming hemp could be used like this as well?

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53 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

I have thought about this a bit lately, as hemp is being used in more automotive applications.  I'm assuming hemp could be used like this as well?

What about bamboo?   Fast growing, looks nice...fairly strong...

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10 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Wood is greener. That epoxy won't biodegrade.

I was just thinking that mankind has been using wood to make boats for millennia... nothing to see here, move along

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Twin keeler, fully biodegradable except for the silicone, just the thing for @VWAP

47a460adbe5a69aee440996151ee42e8_large.thumb.jpg.c41d834518766b5500e1a6461142d07f.jpg

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what's it rate?

 

Sorry but had to be done.

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10 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Wood is greener. That epoxy won't biodegrade.

Yeah, but it’s Vegan epoxy from Mother Earth!

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I like the idea but, how much is it?

I know the adage 'If you have to ask'....

If I can get my company to sponsor one here in the USA for  'Team Building', you never know.

We already have a 330 Meter LNG containership so, the sky is the limit as far as I am concerned.

Sail fast and Safe! 

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Would be interesting to se a full bore environmental impact study on hemp vs glass fiber manufacturing.  Ya gotta grow the hemp, farm and process it with machines, fertilizers, pesticides, etc.  Glass is melted sand.

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44 minutes ago, bgytr said:

Would be interesting to se a full bore environmental impact study on hemp vs glass fiber manufacturing.  Ya gotta grow the hemp, farm and process it with machines, fertilizers, pesticides, etc.  Glass is melted sand.

There's a comparison to carbon fiber as well.  Carbon takes an incredible about of energy to make.

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All joking aside, this is a really interesting project and company. I'm especially impressed because I thought about this all the way back in my beginning years. I even wondered about a wood bicycle--because I knew that while aluminum masts are lighter than spruce, it isn't a major difference (but of course someone did that 10 years ago).  More recently I thought of using linen to build a violin. But alas, someone beat me to it! Sometimes you REALLY have to get on it the moment you think of it!

The cork core has me somewhat dumbfounded. But that is also interesting! Cork does have a viscoelastic response which would be like airex.

The key to all of this working is not merely the stiffness to weight ratios (as well as strength to weight) of the materials, but their density as well. The linen has a density of 1.5 g/cc or so whereas glass is at 2.6. The lower density makes for more efficient panel structures in the size of this boat--especially in single skin areas (I have no idea of their structural arrangement).  That they came out at only 8 kg different from E glass is surprising however.

He didn't discuss the sails; however I don't think any of us want to go back to linen sails! That's one place where even ordinary dacron was a revolutionary improvement.

The resin side of it wasn't discussed much but resins have been made from soy and linseed for a long long time. Some of the early polymers taht are still in use  are soy based...(alkyd resins in paint for instance...)

While the epoxy will not degrade in nature any more than a petroleum based one (without some sort of modification to make it degrade) it is nonetheless created without petroleum. Hey, if peak oil ever happened we'd be doing this anyway.

 

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56 minutes ago, VWAP said:

https://www.marijuanabreak.com/is-hemp-stronger-than-steel

 

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Is Hemp Stronger Than Steel? Exploring the Truth

No.

Try replacing your standing rigging with hemp, see how it goes.

Both tensile strength and youngs modulus values I saw in tech journals of hemp vs glass fiber showed the glass fiber about 8 to 10 times higher for both values.   One of the tech articles discussed the propensity for water absorption of the hemp with degradation of mechanical properties.  Likely not ideal in a marine environment, unless you are certain that water won't wick into the fibers at some point.  I wouldn't take a 20 yr old hemp composite boat on an offshore passage, you can be damn sure. But have at it if you want to.

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15 minutes ago, bgytr said:

No.

Try replacing your standing rigging with hemp, see how it goes.

Both tensile strength and youngs modulus values I saw in tech journals of hemp vs glass fiber showed the glass fiber about 8 to 10 times higher for both values.   One of the tech articles discussed the propensity for water absorption of the hemp with degradation of mechanical properties.  Likely not ideal in a marine environment, unless you are certain that water won't wick into the fibers at some point.  I wouldn't take a 20 yr old hemp composite boat on an offshore passage, you can be damn sure. But have at it if you want to.

How is that different than a wood boat?  Doesn't wood absorb water?

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21 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

How is that different than a wood boat?  Doesn't wood absorb water?

Ya but with wood you can likely see where problems are happening.  And I would not want a wood boat either.

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24 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

How is that different than a wood boat?  Doesn't wood absorb water?

You can replank a wood boat.

 

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41 minutes ago, bgytr said:

No.

Try replacing your standing rigging with hemp, see how it goes.

Both tensile strength and youngs modulus values I saw in tech journals of hemp vs glass fiber showed the glass fiber about 8 to 10 times higher for both values.   One of the tech articles discussed the propensity for water absorption of the hemp with degradation of mechanical properties.  Likely not ideal in a marine environment, unless you are certain that water won't wick into the fibers at some point.  I wouldn't take a 20 yr old hemp composite boat on an offshore passage, you can be damn sure. But have at it if you want to.

Of course let's not forget that all the oceangoing ships of the 19th century depended on hemp for their standing rigging. Dolloped with pitch, they stayed pretty water resistant.

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Just now, fastyacht said:

Of course let's not forget that all the oceangoing ships of the 19th century depended on hemp for their standing rigging. Dolloped with pitch, they stayed pretty water resistant.

True.  But I wouldn't want to maintain it.  Feel free if you want to.

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? is:

Is resin biodegradeable or a forever pollutant, like PFAS?

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I always wondered if bamboo would be suitable as it has a nice straight grain 

encapsulated in epoxy would I have similar strength as cedar ?

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21 minutes ago, BobBill said:

? is:

Is resin biodegradeable or a forever pollutant, like PFAS?

PFAS is nasty shit for specific human endocrine and other biological reasons. crosslinked epoxy is an inert solid. Depending on resin chemistry and completion of cure, with chain scission (degredation) some trace amounts of "bad stuff" can come out. In typical low cost resins those would normally be resisdal epichlorohydrin and bis-phenol A. Note that not all formulations use either of these--for instance soy based.

(The basic old-fashioned epoxy was made with 2 moles of epichlorhydrin reacted with 1 mole of BPA. This makes the resin at the resin factory (Left out details involving how this works--but thermodynamics dictates that you will have some small finite amount of unreacted material unless you do other clever things. Then at the boat shop, you react with this resin with the stoichiometric ratio of tri-functional amine to achieve a cross-linked solid.)

 

PFAS:

https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/pfas/PFAS-health-effects.html

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5 minutes ago, jetfuel said:

I always wondered if bamboo would be suitable as it has a nice straight grain 

encapsulated in epoxy would I have similar strength as cedar ?

Bamboo rots if you look at it cross-eyed.

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Fast I dig. Raking coals...green to mee is a reduction of population's ding dongs...which meand about 80% should be fertrilizer...as Mother Nature will do. Trouble is, rain falls on all things...

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Bamboo...did not know it was rot inclined being a tropical sort of wood, Interesting...I have ancinet (small head) Bancroft Bamboo tennis raquest,...will look closer at it.

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21 minutes ago, BobBill said:

Bamboo...did not know it was rot inclined being a tropical sort of wood, Interesting...I have ancinet (small head) Bancroft Bamboo tennis raquest,...will look closer at it.

Do you leave your bamboo racket in the rain?

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Don’t know about green boats, but Green motorcycles are bad luck.  When I was a teenager I told that to my best friend.  Less than a week later, he wrecked his GREEN Motorcycle and broke his leg.  

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Fuck man surely there would be a simple solution to waterproofing hemp cloth at production if it was to become mainstream .

good on them for doing it and choosing a top shelf designer to boot 

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Not...but good one. Doubt it ever was wet, save some slight persperation...think it was hung on wall back when Borg played Conners or Mac played....went to mid size and then overs...no one wants to play anymore...I loved it.

four of last six on wall and just remembered no racks for them. and sll straight...

Bamboo...always wondered why not exploided much, now I know....duh on me!

 

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25 minutes ago, Santana20AE said:

Don’t know about green boats, but Green motorcycles are bad luck.  When I was a teenager I told that to my best friend.  Less than a week later, he wrecked his GREEN Motorcycle and broke his leg.  

What about the Kawasaki team riders?

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4 minutes ago, BobBill said:

Not...but good one. Doubt it ever was wet, save some slight persperation...think it was hung on wall back when Borg played Conners or Mac played....went to mid size and then overs...no one wants to play anymore...I loved it.

four of last six on wall and just remembered no racks for them. and sll straight...

Bamboo...always wondered why not exploided much, now I know....duh on me!

 

Skiers know it as "tonkin cane."

Fly fishermen know it as "cane rod."

Orvis impregnates their bamboo. This makes it pretty water impenetrable. My early 60s rod looks brand new and never needs varnish. So that's what you would have to do with it....but that's crazy for boatbuilding.

It is great stuff but actually a grass. It makes rather annoying cutting boards.

Some of my drafting scales have bamboo cores. Others are boxwood.

My favourite impregnated wood is made by dehonit:

http://212.227.7.144/pdf/dehonit-englisch.pdf

 

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Yep, just simple, ,thin strips like with olde.r trout fihsing net, wet, sape, glue, drill holes, sdd net.

Racquet is same, but no doubt pressured and cured..Long stripss to form the head...and the epoxy or matris proofed it.

Made a fishing net some 40 years back of wood and used red glue...on wall also, with original net...Net likely shot, but frame still good. cost me just some time and has held lotsa local brokkies and browns. Shich reminds me...gtrout here will fully open in early April...better get out my secrets.

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The old Ford cars had hemp door and dash panels in the 30’s. Hard and durable

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5 hours ago, fastyacht said:

What about the Kawasaki team riders?

Wondered about that many times.  

However, I will never, ever tell anyone that the motorcycle they are riding is bad luck, EVER AGAIN!

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2 hours ago, Gumbercules said:

When will they come up with water based epoxy??

They already did.

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5 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

The old Ford cars had hemp door and dash panels in the 30’s. Hard and durable

https://hempwood.com/

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20 hours ago, jetfuel said:

I always wondered if bamboo would be suitable as it has a nice straight grain 

encapsulated in epoxy would I have similar strength as cedar ?

Bamboo is better than Cedar, the MOR (5th percentile) of Cedar is in the high 20's (in MPa) whereas for Bamboo (the construction one such as South American guadua) it is at least 60.

47e90d303ef4f3d008f722decd41d791.jpg

This bridge built in wood would look chunkier.

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3 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Bamboo is better than Cedar, the MOR (5th percentile) of Cedar is in the high 20's (in MPa) whereas for Bamboo (the construction one such as South American guadua) it is at least 60.

47e90d303ef4f3d008f722decd41d791.jpg

This bridge built in wood would look chunkier.

https://www.moso.eu/en/products/outdoor/bamboo-n-finity-cladding-and-beams

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7 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Thanks, I knew that some people were doing flooring in the EU but I hadn't realised that laminated beams were available, they give a MOR of 50, so may be I was a bit optimistic in my previous post, but it is still very strong.

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Bamboo was used for dinghy masts before the war. And its high ratios of stiffness and strength to weight made it the ideal fishing rod material (and squash rackets etc) before boron and then carbon fibre came along.

But again, it is a grass with essentially zero rot resistance and a great affinity for drinking up water. And it has these knuckles that have to be dealt with. There is a huge amount of material processing relative to wood.

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Bamboo was used for dinghy masts before the war. And its high ratios of stiffness and strength to weight made it the ideal fishing rod material (and squash rackets etc) before boron and then carbon fibre came along.

But again, it is a grass with essentially zero rot resistance and a great affinity for drinking up water. And it has these knuckles that have to be dealt with. There is a huge amount of material processing relative to wood.

https://fightbugs.com/termites-eat-bamboo/

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I doubt there is even one piece of that boat that didn't use some fossil fuel to create. Reminds me of Al Gore selling his carbon credit scheme out of the side door of a 747! 

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2 minutes ago, GH41 said:

I doubt there is even one piece of that boat that didn't use some fossil fuel to create. Reminds me of Al Gore selling his carbon credit scheme out of the side door of a 747! 

The farmer used petrol to power his eqipment to maintain his crop. And all the transporation to to mill and the weaver etc was by petrol. And same for the workers. But that would be true in any case. There is definitely a net reduction in the amount of petroleum dependency though.

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5 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Bamboo was used for dinghy masts before the war. And its high ratios of stiffness and strength to weight made it the ideal fishing rod material (and squash rackets etc) before boron and then carbon fibre came along.

But again, it is a grass with essentially zero rot resistance and a great affinity for drinking up water. And it has these knuckles that have to be dealt with. There is a huge amount of material processing relative to wood.

Asian bamboos are not rot resistant, nevertheless Colombian bamboo is not as bad, immersion in a borax solution is good enough.

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When a grammar school lad, we had 20 foot bamboo one-piece rods we used for pike fising in river...hung on side of house in all weather, cheap reels, line, attached and all, lasted for years. FWIW. But, I can see how boo was a rotter. 

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4 hours ago, BobBill said:

When a grammar school lad, we had 20 foot bamboo one-piece rods we used for pike fising in river...hung on side of house in all weather, cheap reels, line, attached and all, lasted for years. FWIW. But, I can see how boo was a rotter. 

Gramps has this bamboo thingy you put water in then I guess you try to light it on fire for some reason usually  just before eating a bunch of unhealthy junk food. It makes him and his old geeezer friends happy. He  said he has had it for probably 40 years and he says it still works real good. Bamboo must be pretty durable.

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Dig, I figure if wet then dries, lasts, if soaks too long, rots, like it should.

I searchef for long bamboo tod like those we use...simple fishing...hook up spinner and minnow, swing into fast water (dam) and wait...lift and remove fish...sometimes reusing minnow...fast water. Was a treat and walking home rod was decent to carry also...walking.

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On 3/3/2020 at 11:48 AM, fastyacht said:

PFAS is nasty shit for specific human endocrine and other biological reasons. crosslinked epoxy is an inert solid. Depending on resin chemistry and completion of cure, with chain scission (degredation) some trace amounts of "bad stuff" can come out. In typical low cost resins those would normally be resisdal epichlorohydrin and bis-phenol A. Note that not all formulations use either of these--for instance soy based.

(The basic old-fashioned epoxy was made with 2 moles of epichlorhydrin reacted with 1 mole of BPA. This makes the resin at the resin factory (Left out details involving how this works--but thermodynamics dictates that you will have some small finite amount of unreacted material unless you do other clever things. Then at the boat shop, you react with this resin with the stoichiometric ratio of tri-functional amine to achieve a cross-linked solid.)

 

PFAS:

https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/pfas/PFAS-health-effects.html

Fast, Agree, but must add, it is like not carying and using a hankie!  

Let's do grass - translation, let's go sailing....

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4 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Bamboo at home:

2008278526_20200305_2116172.thumb.jpg.1f468d1592aaa7aa391154dc779c9d28.jpg

 

 

Slazie squash?

Love my Bancroft (Tad) but played the Kramer or Gonzales both a bit more (back then) twas lighter. than the Aussie frames.

Have to admit...bamboo being grass...was not known until 70s by mr.

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9 hours ago, Gumbercules said:

Modern Green Boat

 

homer-doh.gif.950ca51ad5d73cc240cc067780fbdf0f.gif

Never watched...never could abide bad spelling...duh!

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On 3/3/2020 at 6:48 PM, fastyacht said:

PFAS is nasty shit for specific human endocrine and other biological reasons. crosslinked epoxy is an inert solid. Depending on resin chemistry and completion of cure, with chain scission (degredation) some trace amounts of "bad stuff" can come out. In typical low cost resins those would normally be resisdal epichlorohydrin and bis-phenol A. Note that not all formulations use either of these--for instance soy based.

(The basic old-fashioned epoxy was made with 2 moles of epichlorhydrin reacted with 1 mole of BPA. This makes the resin at the resin factory (Left out details involving how this works--but thermodynamics dictates that you will have some small finite amount of unreacted material unless you do other clever things. Then at the boat shop, you react with this resin with the stoichiometric ratio of tri-functional amine to achieve a cross-linked solid.)

 

PFAS:

https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/pfas/PFAS-health-effects.html

Isn't infusion solving this issue or are workers still breathing nasty stuff?

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Do not know but my guess workers are still breathing bad stuff.

Miight be more mfger than rules.

For me, I just do resin in open air andf old way (epoxy,)and since I found out it is near a forever thing,, not much of that for me.

Do have one more hull to craft, however. Foam, foam glue or Gorilla type and epoxy skin...PIA.

.

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14 hours ago, BobBill said:
On 3/5/2020 at 3:35 PM, Gumbercules said:

Modern Green Boat

 

homer-doh.gif.950ca51ad5d73cc240cc067780fbdf0f.gif

Never watched...never could abide bad spelling...duh!

I was never a fan  of the Simpsons but a few of the graphics are good. I did not do the spelling, I'm guessing Homer did and that is the joke.

besides it is like doooough not duh

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V, you might be missing one (reclining) figure...

Re the phrasing...in another comment.("Duh!" it's the spelling?)

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