us7070

J/105 Hoisting

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I am told that some J/105's are hoisted with a single eye nut on a keel bolt

does anyone here have first hand experience with this?

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1 hour ago, us7070 said:

I am told that some J/105's are hoisted with a single eye nut on a keel bolt

does anyone here have first hand experience with this?

A goofus would need at least a 5 ton lift to attempt such a risky enterprise plus a hole in the deck for the hoist fairlead.

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6 minutes ago, marcus brutus said:

 

A goofus would need at least a 5 ton lift to attempt such a risky enterprise plus a hole in the deck for the hoist fairlead.

there are some big enough hoists around

i think i heard maybe they were putting in an inspection port for the hole - or maybe that was a different boat..., i'm not sure

i don't own a 105 - just asking....

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13 minutes ago, us7070 said:

there are some big enough hoists around

i think i heard maybe they were putting in an inspection port for the hole - or maybe that was a different boat..., i'm not sure

i don't own a 105 - just asking....

The idea of lifting a fixed keel sailboat boat, whose keel weight is significantly less than the hull, from a single point located a couple of feet bellow the waterline is insane due to the huge problem of it being top heavy and unbalanced.

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2 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

The idea of lifting a fixed keel sailboat boat, whose keel weight is significantly less than the hull, from a single point located a couple of feet bellow the waterline is insane due to the huge problem of it being top heavy and unbalanced.

You should probably tell these guys that..

http://j105.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/All-about-Single-Point-Lifts-Walt-Nuschke-updated-42808.pdf

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1 hour ago, Captain Jack Sparrow said:

I would never presume to teach the J/105 guru Bobby Mueller anything, but I will bet you that he uses this method only to weight the boat by just lifting it momentarily above water, not for launching and retrieving.

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This measure would be for weighing and if it is not, I would probably hold off about hoisting my 105 until a 2 point travel lift or crane was available.  

Why take the risk.  Our yard saw this and deduced it was for weighing and would not attempt something that had never been performed by them.

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12 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

The idea of lifting a fixed keel sailboat boat, whose keel weight is significantly less than the hull, from a single point located a couple of feet bellow the waterline is insane due to the huge problem of it being top heavy and unbalanced.

X-Yachts of all sizes have long come equipped with a single point lift integrated in the steel grid structure and they seem to work just fine:

46495868_1369547379847245_1339862717829218304_n.png.9807b7371c4cf437b850031b68fb4948.png

 

A buddy uses the system regularly to haul/launch his IMX-38 (~12,000 pounds):

1541343150__59.JPG.07aab1e57525b47c2f364fdb17cdca0a.JPG

 

Then there's the current XP-38 (~15,000 pounds):

Photo-6_06.2017-12-05-06-1920x1440.thumb.jpg.02f1e21efdd4f73c771c25040b63d66a.jpg

 

Or how about the current XC-38 (~19,000 pounds):

viixeb1.jpg.2da4f18cc51a8d165817d22132693656.jpg

xc-38.jpg.d2937aaccb930e0ae4e770d9b716c23e.jpg

 

Ah well, I suppose mb knows all and that Jeppesen guy don't know shit, right?!

 

Cheers!

 

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Our Keel boats though somewhat smaller than above, have two point lifting from centreline Keel bolts. To stop them tilting we tie a rope from the stay / chain /shroud plates each side to the lifting strop..

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9 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

I would never presume to teach the J/105 guru Bobby Mueller anything, but I will bet you that he uses this method only to weight the boat by just lifting it momentarily above water, not for launching and retrieving.

Yeah, we do this all the time.  In fact the 105 is properly measured at the single point lift.  Race boats hang at Bobby's all day.  Yur funny.

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1 hour ago, The Q said:

Our Keel boats though somewhat smaller than above, have two point lifting from centreline Keel bolts.

do you have a plate with a lift bar between those bolts?

some believe that if you want to lift off the keel bolts, you really want to be lifting straight up.., or the moment on the bolt might damage it

so that's potentialy a problem with the 105 above, because the strap angles aft a bit, putting a moment on the bolt

so the other option is to have an inspection port over the bolt - so you can lift straight up

if you are lifting off two bolts, you will definitely put a moment on at least one of the bolts - but maybe the angle is so tiny that you can ignore it.

J/88's lift off a plate that goes on two keel bolts, under the nuts.., and the plate has a transverse bar welded on top that the strap goes around - i think the strap angles aft about 10deg or so with no inspection port - but there is no moment bending the bolts

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58 minutes ago, PatsyQPatsy said:

Race boats hang at Bobby's all day.  Yur funny.

in Marcus's defense.., he's not saying that you can't single-point lift big boats

he is saying that center of mass of the 105 is too close to the lifting point for the boat to be stable when lifted - seemed like he might even have been arguing it's _above_ the lift point.., which would be an issue if it were true

race boats have a pretty deep center of mass, so that will never be a problem

it doesn't appear that he is right about the 105 though - nobody so far is saying it's not stable enough

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19 minutes ago, us7070 said:

do you have a plate with a lift bar between those bolts?

some believe that if you want to lift off the keel bolts, you really want to be lifting straight up.., or the moment on the bolt might damage it

so that's potentialy a problem with the 105 above, because the strap angles aft a bit, putting a moment on the bolt

so the other option is to have an inspection port over the bolt - so you can lift straight up

if you are lifting off two bolts, you will definitely put a moment on at least one of the bolts - but maybe the angle is so tiny that you can ignore it.

J/88's lift off a plate that goes on two keel bolts, under the nuts.., and the plate has a transverse bar welded on top that the strap goes around - i think the strap angles aft about 10deg or so with no inspection port - but there is no moment bending the bolts

Yep,  and the lifting eyes aren't straight,  but are angled towards the lifting straps. 

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2 minutes ago, The Q said:

Yep,  and the lifting eyes aren't straight,  but are angled towards the lifting straps

do you have a picture?

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Unfortunately not,  the actual owner is injured and we've not sailed for a year.  The boats being stored at the moment.. 

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43 minutes ago, us7070 said:

in Marcus's defense.., he's not saying that you can't single-point lift big boats

he is saying that center of mass of the 105 is too close to the lifting point for the boat to be stable when lifted - seemed like he might even have been arguing it's _above_ the lift point.., which would be an issue if it were true

race boats have a pretty deep center of mass, so that will never be a problem

it doesn't appear that he is right about the 105 though - nobody so far is saying it's not stable enough

And here is a J30 getting ready for single point lift from the keel.  She has a heavy body with way more furniture than a 105.  She has about a 3rd of her weight in the keel where the 105 has nearly half.  In the Muller lift you can see the lines from the winches maintaining lateral stability.  Some boats have a bow down tendency at the lift which is much more likely.  One then brings a line from the bow cleats to the lifting strop to maintain the forward stability.  Weve done this a hundred times on 25-40 foot keel boats.

[Linked Image]

This 30 happens to have a tail down tendency.

[Linked Image]

 

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23 minutes ago, PatsyQPatsy said:

And here is a J30 getting ready for single point lift from the keel. 

 

do you know if that is using an eye nut.., and if so.., just one?

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2 minutes ago, us7070 said:

 

do you know if that is using an eye nut.., and if so.., just one?

2

[Linked Image]

I think the lift would work more smoothly through the sea hood.

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1 minute ago, us7070 said:

so - that's two eye nuts, each on a keel bolt - right?

Affirmative.  I seem to recall that J24 had to do the same but it has been a few since I lifted one of those fine shin smashers.

J27 goes up on a single bolt for sure.  22 is one bolt.  Most of these are removable kit, but I have seen some clever permanent eyes that the floor boards fit over.  

The two bolt setup is to shift the fore and aft balance point like the J30 though as you can see she had to put some stability lines to the back because her stability point is the deck inspection plate.

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I feel pretty sure that the loading is parallel enough to the bolt axes in that setup, that there is not much risk of bending the bolts - assuming the inspection port is located properly

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4 minutes ago, us7070 said:

I feel pretty sure that the loading is parallel enough to the bolt axes in that setup, that there is not much risk of bending the bolts - assuming the inspection port is located properly

I would assume that too.  I had a very large lifting eye years ago that was custom made with a long shank.  It did not like when the 105 tipped forward (poor preparation on my part).  The bolt had a 5 degree bend in it.  We didn't use that again and learned a good lesson in gradually lifting the boat.  I think I still have that thing somewhere in the shop as a reminder.  I should probably throw it out.

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17 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

The idea of lifting a fixed keel sailboat boat, whose keel weight is significantly less than the hull, from a single point located a couple of feet bellow the waterline is insane due to the huge problem of it being top heavy and unbalanced.

It's done all the time

 

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They single point lift Farr 40's all the time.   First time you see it you sit and watch, after that its just a normal beer can event.   

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For weighing, the Berkeley Marine guys have a rig that converts a travelift to a single point for the load cell and then passes slings under the boat in a normal safe way for the hull.

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8 hours ago, PatsyQPatsy said:
10 hours ago, us7070 said:

in Marcus's defense.., he's not saying that you can't single-point lift big boats

he is saying that center of mass of the 105 is too close to the lifting point for the boat to be stable when lifted - seemed like he might even have been arguing it's _above_ the lift point.., which would be an issue if it were true

race boats have a pretty deep center of mass, so that will never be a problem

it doesn't appear that he is right about the 105 though - nobody so far is saying it's not stable enough.

... I had a very large lifting eye years ago that was custom made with a long shank.  It did not like when the 105 tipped forward (poor preparation on my part).  The bolt had a 5 degree bend in it.  We didn't use that again and learned a good lesson in gradually lifting the boat.  I think I still have that thing somewhere in the shop as a reminder.  I should probably throw it out.

Actually, the one person on this thread that appears to be most most adverse to my safety concerns did just that.

Any experienced heavy duty crane operator will confirm that keeping a weight unnecessarily suspended, especially when most of that weight can be supported on the ground, is simply ignorant.

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11 hours ago, marcus brutus said:

Actually, the one person on this thread that appears to be most most adverse to my safety concerns did just that. 

but that was a fore-aft issue - not a vertical center of mass issue

everyone who single-point hoists boats - no matter the size - knows this is an issue.., you need to hoist as near the longitudinal center of mass as possible, and have lines or bridles rigged to deal with small problems.

i understand that J Boats (Jeff, I think) has, as a service, provided some owners with a reasonably precise location of the longitudinal center of mass on some of their boats - just so the owners can hoist them. i think it's usually an issue of knowing which keel bolt or bolts to use to get it acceptable.

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Single point lifting of pretty sizable boats has been done for a long time. They single pointed the Concordia yawls(18K+lbs) off the freighters and splashed them into Boston harbor in the 50s and 60s. I think i remember reading they located the skylight specifically for the lifting strap or cable to pass through. I'm sure its been done way before that as well. 

A single pointed hull is not unstable because the strap is secured at deck level through a deck port or with lashings for and aft and side to side if it passes through the companionway. 

I have been single pointing my J29 for over 15 years now, rig up or rig down with no issues. Its done just like the J30 in the pics above with two eye nuts on the aft two keel bolts and two straps leading through a deck port on the spray hood. Due to the location of the keel bolts, the boat doesn't quite balance properly for and aft, I need to place the outboard on the foredeck and it balances perfectly. 

A J105 at less than 8K can be easily single pointed if done properly. 

When I first did it, I'll admit it was a bit unnerving, now its the only way to launch and haul the boat. The added benefit is no worries about the straps scratching the hull or interfering with the trailer pads when setting it down. 

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The race boat (not a 105) I hoisted several time a week for years had a eye welded into the keelbolt backing plate. That was nice. If using a eye on a bolt the eye should really have a large shoulder to brace against off axis loads bending the bolt at the threads.

The center of mass was about a foot behind the eye, and aft of the keel and bolts. So we had a strop that extended to deck level, out the companionway. A ring there took the hoist hook and two small lines which led aft to the transom. Those lines pulled the eye aft to perfectly above the center of mass. They were not heavily loaded.

But then we found that the keelbolt backing plate was very close to the vertical center of mass. If upset the boat would heel until the strop bore against the companionway sides. Didn't look good nor did it help with loading on the trailer. So two more small lines were led from the hoist eye athwartship to a pair of winches astride the companionway. All these lines were spliced and fixed in length so any drunk fool could click them on in an instant with no knots.

Worked great. Of course every boat is different. Just my story.

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20 hours ago, IMR said:

They single point lift Farr 40's all the time.   First time you see it you sit and watch, after that its just a normal beer can event.   

The Farr 40 has an aluminum keel grid with a built in lift point, right under the hatch.  Lines are run back to the spinnaker sheet padeyes for balance. Very simple and secure.  

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Here is a video I took in Texas hauling a J/105 out using a crane. We did this pretty much every weekend. Especially on big regatta weekends. Cranes are really popular on Texas lakes. J/105 is the biggest boat I've personally seen craned out by the owner, but I've personally craned a J/24 out at least 100 times at this point. J/92 and J/22 are also quite common to dry sail via crane.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Hadlock said:

Here is a video I took in Texas hauling a J/105 out using a crane. We did this pretty much every weekend. Especially on big regatta weekends. Cranes are really popular on Texas lakes. J/105 is the biggest boat I've personally seen craned out by the owner, but I've personally craned a J/24 out at least 100 times at this point. J/92 and J/22 are also quite common to dry sail via crane.

 

 

Isn't that the hard luck boat from Corpus Christi that after dismasting was purchased by the late Dorsey Ruley who junked it after it almost sank ?

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I forget if it was this exact boat, but a flag blue J boat was hoisted at that same location (lake lewisville) using an underrated strap, the strap broke and they dropped it on it's keel on the hard (or so the story goes). Somewhere in my archives I have a picture of the 4" crack at the leading edge of the keel while on the trailer if anyone is especially curious. I was doing J/24 things at the time.

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The occasion/equipment has not presented for me to try it, but add Laser 28's to the single point keel bolt lift list.  It's the suggested method in the manual.   4,000lbs.

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On 4/10/2020 at 7:06 PM, sbwriter said:

Here is a 12-Meter:

image.png.73de1f732b40b9686e3ea73a054e98f3.png

Forgot about them single pointing 12's. 60-70K displacement there. 

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15 hours ago, Squalamax said:

Forgot about them single pointing 12's. 60-70K displacement there. 

Almost like single pointing a J29!

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