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5 minutes ago, Hawke said:

Which makes you question which type of Government is the right one for certain issues.  

WW2 Winston Churchill.  Led the people and focussed them on the goal.

Parliament in Britain still continued to sit during the Battle of Britain.  Democracy continued.  In New Zealand Parliament was discontinued.  MP's were forced to stay at home.

Surely we could have quarantined 120 elected individuals to keep doing their job and work together to maintain our democracy and find the right solutions.

Internet in ww2 was shite

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Don’t be upset, you Kiwis,  but in advance of the AC Italy just grabbed the Dumbest Immigration Authorities Cup. What happened is someone belatedly had the bright idea of testing  passengers arriving on a flight from Dhaka, and they got 40 positives out of 210! Panic ensued when it was realized that in June there had been four charter flights from Bangladesh with 900 passengers, who had been let in with just the requirement of fiduciary quarantine. Predictably, when tracers scrambled to contact them, they found that most had started working immediately, or had given a false address or were sharing crowded accomodations. Even so, 70 additional positives were found in the community.

The sraw that broke the camel’s back was a Qatari flight via Doha, where the 257 Bangladeshi on board were not allowed to disembark and sent back on the same plane. But the 53 passengers from other nationalities were tested, 5 so far turned out positives - and all are into isolation.

So, as of today, fully 78% of new cases in Italy are “imported”!

As a consequence, the government has forbidden entry and canceled flights from 13 non-EU countries: in addition to Bangladesh, Brazil,  Bahrain, Peru, Chile and others

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1 hour ago, Hawke said:

Hyperbole largely written by a journalist who specialises in economics.

 

1 hour ago, Hawke said:
  13 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

A comprehensive explanation for the infection/death gap and a bit of good news in chapter "4. Hospitalized patients are dying less frequently, even without a home-run treatment."

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/why-covid-death-rate-down/613945

Renn,  a big vote of thanks for bringing the Atlantic article to our attention. Dense, well researched,  incredibly detailed, but justifiably draws few conclusions. The Chap 4 good news has also been reported by other media.

I recommend this piece to anyone striving honestly to understand the mysteries of Covid death or survival.

As for Hawke, our self-appointed "expert" here? His instant and dismissive one-liner speaks for itself. Feh!

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Paywall.

Still the figures are hard to accept.

When deaths in the US were peaking at ~2,000 a day, it came off new infections of less than 20,000 the fortnight before.

Now New daily deaths are ~500 at the same new infections rate?  (fortnight before)

Mmmmm  75% reduction in mortality?

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43 minutes ago, Hawke said:

FFS you can drive a truck through his "opinions".  Again do as I have suggested one should do when reading this type of journalism and that is dig deeper or even try Googling the research that is selectively quoted and then read it.

You only have to look at his blatant political bias that understand that this is not a well balanced article and is shoddy opinion based journalism.

 Pay attention.  There is a chasm between "opinions" like yours.  And reporting, citing multiple respected sources, like his.

Pray, explain to us about the  "blatant political bias" you have detected.

 

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Aw, c'mon mate.  I bloody-well know THAT,  FFS.  I didn't come down in the last shower.  What's more,  I happen to agree with you wholeheartedly re Trump's blithering nonsense on this subject.

My challenge to you, which you appear to be ducking, was to backup your statement about the  "blatant political bias" you have detected in the article in The Atlantic which you chose to denigrate.  It is in Post #2276.

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58 minutes ago, Hawke said:

Obviously you have a selective bias to what you actually read.  I have posted numerous examples of where what has been posted in opinion pieces have been either blatantly erroneous or a misinterpretation of the research that the are quoting.

It is the same in this OPINION piece.  Again I'd advise you to dig deeper behind that opinion.

Articles such as these are dangerous has they create alarm and hysteria unnecessarily.

Covid-19 is a disease that is here to stay.  Even if a vaccine is found it will be too late to change the natural progression of the disease.

That is sad but undeniably true.

Waaaal, I can affirm that I don't eagerly pore through all your breathless ranting.

"Articles such as these are dangerous has they create alarm and hysteria unnecessarily"

Yeah, I can see how that works with some schmucks!

But enough, already!  Back to the subject in hand,  please just explain to us in flat, unemotional terms the "blatant political bias" you have detected in The 
Atlantic
article.

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9 minutes ago, Hawke said:
  25 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

Aw, c'mon mate.  I bloody-well know THAT,  FFS.  I didn't come down in the last shower.  What's more,  I happen to agree with you wholeheartedly re Trump's blithering nonsense on this subject.

My challenge to you, which you appear to be ducking, was to backup your statement about the  "blatant political bias" you have detected in the article in The Atlantic which you chose to denigrate.  It is in Post #2276.

 

9 minutes ago, Hawke said:

I quoted the last paragraph of the Opinion Piece as an example.  It wasn't necessary however acceptable I guess in an opinion piece.

I rest my case!

The last 'graf of The Atlantic article reads as follows:  

"After all the graphs, statistics, science, and interpretations, we’re left with a simple fact: Hundreds of Americans are dying every day of a disease that is infecting several hundred thousand of them every week. If that’s success, let’s pray we never see failure."

Yup, that is surely opinion and one I agree with 100%.  As I'm sure all of us here do.

And you want us  to see this as evidence of "blatant political bias"?

You'll forgive me perhaps as I choose not to engage further with you on this subject.

 

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3 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

 

 

 

Renn,  a big vote of thanks for bringing the Atlantic article to our attention. Dense, well researched,  incredibly detailed, but justifiably draws few conclusions. The Chap 4 good news has also been reported by other media.

I recommend this piece to anyone striving honestly to understand the mysteries of Covid death or survival.

As for Hawke, our self-appointed "expert" here? His instant and dismissive one-liner speaks for itself. Feh!

Thanks. It was this forum that pointed me to the Atlantic years ago, and I'm so happy about it. Great journalism. 

As for Hawke, this becomes creepy so I don't read his/her posts anymore. 

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

Thanks. It was this forum that pointed me to the Atlantic years ago, and I'm so happy about it. Great journalism. 

As for Hawke, this becomes creepy so I don't read his/her posts anymore. 

I told it to FO a week or so ago. It thought I was twisting its words. <proud>

Time to stop quoting the troll.

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2 hours ago, Hawke said:

Yah dipstick I posted the paragraph further up.  The one that starts "When President Trump and others...."

how is denigrating trump political bias

its a humanist thing

ie

normal abhorrence for corruption and stupidity

or at this point

just common sense

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4 hours ago, Hawke said:

Well we are being fed a torrent of "opinion" pieces that are misinterpreting research.  That doesn't serve the best interests of managing the Covid-19 pandemic.

If you go to the CNN website now you will see a case in point.  Front page headline - "How Coronavirus affects the Entire Body".  It draws its information from one research paper and quotes from a couple of doctors.

It promotes the perception that this is what ALL patients experience.  It doesn't responsibly emphasise that the data is collected from predominantly seriously ill Covid-19 patients.  It asserts as given some conditions happen when the research paper frequently uses may, possibly and likely.  The research paper also says more research is required.

The reporter also chooses to overlook the fact that these conditions occur in aged patients with comorbidities.  36% have diabetes and 46% are clinically obese!

"It asserts as given some conditions happen when the research paper frequently uses may, possibly and likely."

Careful sport. This, as written, is pure gobbledegook. As me old Uncle Ernie usta say:  "Watch out!  You'll blow your foo-foo valve."

Turns out there is a whole spectrum of media reports citing multiple experts at research bodies around the world -- all citing the disastrous and lasting effects of the virus on patients young and old. It makes for extremely sobering reading.

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This could explain why we don't have one case of known reinfections while we don't alway find antibodies.

Abscence of evidence of antibodies is not evidence of absence of it or..... T cells. Simple common sense with.... evidence now.

"There is mounting evidence that people exposed to the virus have a transient (short-lived) antibody response, or have a T cell response in spite of a minor or absent antibody response," Dr Alessandro Sette, professor and member of the La Jolla Institute’s Infectious Disease and Vaccine Center in California, told Reuters.

When a virus gets past the body's initial defenses - which include infection-fighting white blood cells - a more specific "adaptive" response kicks in, triggering production of cells that target the invader. These include antibodies that can recognize a virus and lock onto it, preventing its entry into a person's cells, as well as T cells that can kill both invaders and the cells they have infected.

A recent small French study https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.21.20132449v1, not yet reviewed by experts, found that six out of eight family members in close contact with relatives who had COVID-19 developed a T cell response, but did not test positive for antibodies.

After an infection or vaccination, the immune system retains a number of "memory" cells that are already primed to quickly attack the same virus in case of a future infection. "

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/world/scientists-focus-on-how-immune-system-t-cells-fight-coronavirus-in-absence-of-antibodies-471862/

 

 

 

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‘I think I made a mistake, I thought this was a hoax

A 30-year-old patient died after attending a ‘“Covid party”, believing the virus to be a hoax, a Texas medical official has said.

“Just before the patient died, they looked at their nurse and said ‘I think I made a mistake, I thought this was a hoax, but it’s not,’” said Dr Jane Appleby, the chief medical officer at Methodist hospital in San Antonio.

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On 7/10/2020 at 8:14 PM, astro said:

Paywall.

Still the figures are hard to accept.

When deaths in the US were peaking at ~2,000 a day, it came off new infections of less than 20,000 the fortnight before.

Now New daily deaths are ~500 at the same new infections rate?  (fortnight before)

Mmmmm  75% reduction in mortality?

Aren't we just running out of the most vulnerable?

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@Rennmaus Thank you for that great informative Atlantic piece.  It has bought up as many questions as it answered but it sure answered quite a few.

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i think his point might be

the virus is still much unknown and anyone that tries to say its just a mild flue thing and best ignored, is endangering the lives of many .. and of course completely deluded

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1 hour ago, Hawke said:

You've made three claims in that sentence that are questionable.  Anyhow if that was the point then why not say it?

What's more what was the point of the article?  Doesn't achieve anything in resolving the problem at hand - does it?

Well, Hawke it certainly should serve as a warning to anyone reading it, thick enough to still insist Coronavirus is a hoax.

Otherwise, natural selection.

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39 minutes ago, Hawke said:

Agreed.  But you have to have a minute piece of sympathy for the fool when you consider the BS he has had to filter through.

A failure of leadership for sure. Poor bugger was probably a Republican too. Some might say, karma.

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4 hours ago, Hawke said:

Agreed.  But you have to have a minute piece of sympathy for the fool when you consider the BS he has had to filter through.

In every herd there are the old, the sick and the stupid.  He was a stupid one.

He went to a Coronavirus Party FFS!  And he got what he went there for.

But these kids are smart, they can express you comment better than I can.

 

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On 7/9/2020 at 3:08 PM, phill_nz said:

aussie projection

 

 

yup, Andy Bart even wrote a song about it, damn near a national anthem now

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On 7/10/2020 at 1:47 PM, MR.CLEAN said:
On 7/10/2020 at 1:43 PM, Hawke said:

As for your graph.  The damage was done over 3 months.  We are now into the 5th month of Covid-19.

are you a bit special?

half the deaths from the spanish flu came in the fall of 1918, corresponding to the fall of 2020.   do some fucking reading.

tenor.gif?itemid=8054266

You know you want to.

Some I know have been for less.

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10 hours ago, 167149 said:

yup, Andy Bart even wrote a song about it, damn near a national anthem now

cannot find any reference to it

 

any hints ?

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9 hours ago, phill_nz said:

cannot find any reference to it

 

any hints ?

song about one bloke stealing another blokes wife killing and eating her Andy Bart = Andrew Barton (banjo) Paterson

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Some good news?

Sarah Gilbert has voiced remarkable confidence in her chances, saying the Oxford vaccine has an 80% probability of being effective in stopping people who are exposed to the novel coronavirus from developing Covid-19. She has said she could know by September.

read it at    https://coronavirus.medium.com/the-woman-leading-the-vaccine-race-88e7534e3b82

 

I wonder if Bill has started making it yet?

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NZ and Sweden have to opposite strategies so it is very interesting to compare. Obviously Sweden is more seriously hit now, but only the future will tell which bet was best.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-24/sweden-s-epidemiologist-says-world-went-mad-imposing-lockdowns?utm_source=url_link&amp;fbclid=IwAR2r5c7SHc3u5jdC42E4kMi1dbmcGf3IELeYUaSjRCEzpDYMOiDuh0qoYSk

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

NZ and Sweden have to opposite strategies so it is very interesting to compare. Obviously Sweden is more seriously hit now, but only the future will tell which bet was best.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-24/sweden-s-epidemiologist-says-world-went-mad-imposing-lockdowns?utm_source=url_link&amp;fbclid=IwAR2r5c7SHc3u5jdC42E4kMi1dbmcGf3IELeYUaSjRCEzpDYMOiDuh0qoYSk

New Zealand's community is free to conduct their normal activities as long as it does not depend on international tourism.  We have now accumulated 78 days since our last community case of the virus.

The border control is using about 5,000 hotel rooms for returning citizens who are required to enter managed isolation or quarantine for 14 days.  Of these people about two per day out of 400 have the virus and go into quarantine.  No one with the virus needs hospital care at this time.

We consider that our economy is better off with only tourism and hospitality affected as those industries would still suffer even if we were using the Swedish model.

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Tegnell is an a##. No country in the world planned to shut down forever. The reasons for the lock-downs were
- get an overview of the situation
- flatten the curve as fast as possible to avoid a health service breakdown
- gain time to get enough PPE for frontline workers
- gain time to assess and implement future measures once the curve was flat enough

What does he think? That many countries around the world implemented lock-downs frivolously to bully their citizens? That they couldn't wait to ruin their economies? That they rather listen to one outlier of a scientist than believe all the others?
Sweden is paying a huge price for Tegnell's irresponsible stubbornness to execute his experiment.

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31 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

We consider that our economy is better off with only tourism and hospitality affected as those industries would still suffer even if we were using the Swedish model.

Respectable position. Except a victim will be the AC, with only local spectators/fans - should have delayed it

 

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In addition, partial/regional lock-downs are still a means to contain new outbreaks. A part of a reasonable response to the virus:
https://time.com/5866156/coronavirus-surge-asia-lessons/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=inside-time&utm_content=20200718&et_rid=77881330

As for the AC, @Xlot, there is nobody sadder than me that my longtime dream to travel to NZ for the AC will not come true (at least not next year). Geeeeez, I was already saving vacation days when allowed since two years to make it a six weeks' stay. But it's up to the Defender and CoR to agree on the dates, and it's understandable that they don't have the time nor funds for a deferral.

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@Rennmaus don't give up.  There will be a Virus Passport by then which you will be able to get before you leave and will be required by airlines soon to get on a plane.  With it you will require 4 days on arrival with a test when you arrive and at the end of 4 days then you will be in our Bubble and able to join (not TOO many people) getting up and close to the people and boats etc, you want.  I would like to have a beer with you is that could be arranged.

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^on the bright side if that actually happens you won't have many Amurricans there except a few zillionaires. Testing is so fucked here it takes a week or more to get results. Hawaii planned to offer a clean test instead of quarantine, gave up since nobody can get test results in 3 days. Total clusterf. States fight each other for resources. Trump is bored and no longer cares.

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38 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

@Rennmaus don't give up.  There will be a Virus Passport by then which you will be able to get before you leave and will be required by airlines soon to get on a plane.  With it you will require 4 days on arrival with a test when you arrive and at the end of 4 days then you will be in our Bubble and able to join (not TOO many people) getting up and close to the people and boats etc, you want.  I would like to have a beer with you is that could be arranged.

That would be great. Let's see how things evolve and keep our fingers crossed.
As for the beer... that's one of the main reasons to visit ACs, meeting fellow Anarchists. Would be great, indeed.

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7 hours ago, Xlot said:

Respectable position. Except a victim will be the AC, with only local spectators/fans - should have delayed it

 

Funny that you and troll cat both say the same thing...things will be somehow different given some time for this to wash under the bridge. Problem is that your conclusion is based on a huge assumption...that this Shit flow will fit under the bridge.

Edit: sorry for the bridge metaphors, but my drive is just out of shot...cause it's 2 m under yesterday.

 

FB_IMG_1595015220728.jpg

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7 hours ago, Xlot said:

Respectable position. Except a victim will be the AC, with only local spectators/fans - should have delayed it

 

I seriously doubt ETNZ would want to give Challengers the luxury of more time. The successful Defence is all that matters at this stage, not how many spectators might line up to watch it. 

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57 minutes ago, barfy said:

Funny that you and troll cat both say the same thing...things will be somehow different given some time for this to wash under the bridge. Problem is that your conclusion is based on a huge assumption...that this Shit flow will fit under the bridge.

Edit: sorry for the bridge metaphors, but my drive is just out of shot...cause it's 2 m under yesterday.

 

FB_IMG_1595015220728.jpg

Lemon’s Hill?

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4 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

That would be great. Let's see how things evolve and keep our fingers crossed.
As for the beer... that's one of the main reasons to visit ACs, meeting fellow Anarchists. Would be great, indeed.

Agreed, don’t go blowing all of your saved vacation hours just yet, is my plan too.

Did you beat me at billiards in SF? You owe me a rematch! :)

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38 minutes ago, Hawke said:

Put some perspective on it.  It's 5% of the number of people who will die in the USA this year anyway.  That is 3m.  

The video is political BS.

You miss the point, you fucking muppet!! A lot more lives would not have been included in the140k deaths with a bit more empathetic and proactive response from federal government.

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3 hours ago, Indio said:

This is seriously sobering...

 

Pathetic political vid for the gullibles.

Not only the Covid represents a fraction of all deaths but the median age for the Covid deaths is 80 in the US and 84 and Canada. Most deaths in Canada occurred in houses for elder where the average stay is 18 months.

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5 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Agreed, don’t go blowing all of your saved vacation hours just yet, is my plan too.

Did you beat me at billiards in SF? You owe me a rematch! :)

I beat you after a re-write of the rules, AC style ;)

Challenge accepted :wub:

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2 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

If you come to New Zealand you will have to endure 14 days of isolation, this is the experience of one family ..

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/immigration/news/article.cfm?c_id=231&objectid=12349130&ref=rss

You will need to add the cost of quarantine to your budget  if you are allowed to enter the country as the taxpayer has had enough of bearing the burden of these costs.
 

 

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

If you come to New Zealand you will have to endure 14 days of isolation, this is the experience of one family ..

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/immigration/news/article.cfm?c_id=231&objectid=12349130&ref=rss

For the moment, yes. Things might change until Feb 2021, and I hope they do, but I'm not too confident. Half or a third of the vacation days in quarantine is a no-go for me.
Anyway, it is like it is, and we have to live with whatever the situation will be then.

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2 hours ago, Priscilla said:
2 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

If you come to New Zealand you will have to endure 14 days of isolation, this is the experience of one family ..

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/immigration/news/article.cfm?c_id=231&objectid=12349130&ref=rss

You will need to add the cost of quarantine to your budget  if you are allowed to enter the country as the taxpayer has had enough of bearing the burden of these costs.

P.  You might like to view the NZ Ministry of Health web site! Note the following, with a few exceptions, applies to retiring Kiwis. Borders are closed to all others.

"All travellers who arrive in New Zealand will be tested for COVID-19 at their respective facilities. Details of how and when the testing will happen will be provided at the facility.

"All people in managed isolation and quarantine will be provided with three meals a day, and have other basic needs met such as having prescription medicines delivered to them.

"There is no cost to people in these facilities for accommodation, food or associated basic needs. People may use online delivery services to purchase items at their own cost. Friends and family members may not visit or drop off items to people staying in these facilities.

"Before leaving the facility, a final health check will be carried out confirming the person:

  • has not tested positive for COVID-19 or is not a probable case
  • does not have symptoms of COVID-19
  • has a temperature below 38 degrees Celsius."

We seem to be moving in the direction of requiring some recompense.  The Opposition says, if elected, it will charge $3,000 per stay for a single adult.. It still would be a wonderful bargain at the Grand Millennium where I guess the rate is around 400 bucks a day. And if you want a glass of water, get from the tap. No meals. No room service  At published rates, figure $6,000 to $9,000 for your two weeks, depending on whether you prefer Weetbix or steak n'eggs for breakfast.

 

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I spoke too soon.  The NZ government caved in on the subject this afternoon.  No numbers yet. This from The NZ Herald.

 

'The Minister in charge of Managed Isolation and Quarantine Megan Woods is welcoming National's support for a policy to charge returnees to New Zealand part of the costs of accommodation.

'"As I have been signalling for several weeks, we believe people returning to New Zealand should assist with the considerable expense of accommodating them in managed isolation facilities," Megan Woods said.'

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15 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

I spoke too soon.  The NZ government caved in on the subject this afternoon.  No numbers yet. This from The NZ Herald.

 

'The Minister in charge of Managed Isolation and Quarantine Megan Woods is welcoming National's support for a policy to charge returnees to New Zealand part of the costs of accommodation.

'"As I have been signalling for several weeks, we believe people returning to New Zealand should assist with the considerable expense of accommodating them in managed isolation facilities," Megan Woods said.'

The current climate will certainly grease a few agreements in the near future.

 

GettyImages-849835218-judith-collins-national-mp-1120.jpg

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11 hours ago, barfy said:

Funny that you and troll cat both say the same thing...things will be somehow different given some time for this to wash under the bridge

 

[. Problem is that your conclusion is based on a huge assumption...that this Shit flow will fit under the bridge.???

Edit: sorry for the bridge metaphors, but my drive is just out of shot...cause it's 2 m under yesterday.]

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Pathetic political vid for the gullibles.

Not only the Covid represents a fraction of all deaths but the median age for the Covid deaths is 80 in the US and 84 and Canada. Most deaths in Canada occurred in houses for elder where the average stay is 18 months.

 

But on this subject we definitely disagree

 

 

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11 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

I seriously doubt ETNZ would want to give Challengers the luxury of more time. The successful Defence is all that matters at this stage, not how many spectators might line up to watch it. 

Allow me to say it’s a rather selfish position. Just remember how pretty - even for people watching the pictures - was SF with all the NZ flags

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A new study based on genetic backtracking published in Italy confirms a previuos one: the prevalent strain (B1, very aggressive) was brought in from a German who had had contacts with a person coming from Shanghai (not Wuhan!) as early as Jan 20

 

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41 minutes ago, Xlot said:

A new study based on genetic backtracking published in Italy confirms a previuos one: the prevalent strain (B1, very aggressive) was brought in from a German who had had contacts with a person coming from Shanghai (not Wuhan!) as early as Jan 20

 

Some clarifications and corrections (incl. the connection to Wuhan):

19. Jan: It was a Webasto employee (patient 0) from SH traveling to a workshop and meetings in Bavaria. She stayed for three days. Four German colleagues and one fellow traveler were infected.
While in Germany, she developed symptoms like tiredness and chest/back pain (but no fever nor cough), and put them down to her jetlag.

Back in SH she got the other symptoms and was tested positive.

Some days prior her trip to Germany she has met her parents who had come from Wuhan to visit her in SH.

27. Jan: Webasto got notice about the positive test result and began to identify her contacts.  
Until then, the virus had enough time to spread within Webasto Germany via encounters in the canteen (patient 5 via patient 4) and in the family of patient 5. Patient 5 kicked off the community infections in addition to further spread within Webasto by patient 2... And so on.

Do you know how the Italian patient 0 got it, where his/her position is in that chain? It sounds in your post as if the "culprit" was one of the first 4 infected. Did one of the infected Germans travel to Italy, not knowing about his/her infection? One trip to Tenerife is documented, but no infection took place there (nor is it in Italy). Or was the Italian patient 0 an employee of Webasto too?
Or was it Ischgl or another spreader event a lot later in the chain where people met?

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  ^ Unknown link: Webasto has two sites in Italy, but they claim no contacts with the Bavaria office and had no cases themselves. Italy’s patient 1 first had symptoms on Feb 18 - patient 0 was never found

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9 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

 The NZ government caved in on the subject this afternoon.

Rather than caving in the costs of quarantine should not fall on the taxpayers shoulders.

Fair call in my book.

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3 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Rather than caving in the costs of quarantine should not fall on the taxpayers shoulders.

Fair call in my book.

On the other hand, if you want people to visit and spend their $12 billion or so per year (which includes government taxes, so they're tax payers too), you have to be prepared to invest in the cost of getting them into the country. Not saying that quarantine should be free for all and open slather, just that it's not 100% cost to the NZ taxpayer or economy.

Who are New Zealand's top spending tourists?

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24 minutes ago, RobG said:

On the other hand, if you want people to visit and spend their $12 billion or so per year (which includes government taxes, so they're tax payers too), you have to be prepared to invest in the cost of getting them into the country. Not saying that quarantine should be free for all and open slather, just that it's not 100% cost to the NZ taxpayer or economy.

Who are New Zealand's top spending tourists?

At the moment we don't want them coming as we can't even handle the number of Kiwis or permanent residents. Or are you suggesting rich tourists should have a priority?

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5 minutes ago, Gissie said:

At the moment we don't want them coming as we can't even handle the number of Kiwis or permanent residents.

Apparently you can, hence the comfortable conditions being reported.

5 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Or are you suggesting rich tourists should have a priority?

The discussion was about the cost of quarantine, I just pointed out that visitors contribute to the cost even if not charged directly and they have other benefits to the economy. To deduce that infers some kind of privilege is illogical.

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1 minute ago, RobG said:

Apparently you can, hence the comfortable conditions being reported.

The discussion was about the cost of quarantine, I just pointed out that visitors contribute to the cost even if not charged directly and they have other benefits to the economy. To deduce that infers some kind of privilege is illogical.

If we can handle the numbers why have airlines been instructed to stop taking bookings for three weeks?

Yes visitors spend and therefore pay taxes. If it is our GST they would need to spend 26k extra to cover the cost. If you are talking the flow on, yeah right. Tourism employs low wage workers, with a high level of temporary visas. Those that are actually Kiwis will get government subsidies for things like accommodation as they are not paid enough to afford it. This is without even looking at who owns many of the tour companies.

We either open up and see what happens or we accept the tourism sector is screwed and needs to be abandoned short term. There is no real middle ground available.

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There is a good thing which is happening.
All this social distancing, masks, etc has stopped influenza killing most of the 500 people it kills each year.
This is a graph showing the drop in flu symptoms this year compared to the last 2 years.  It does not contain the number of deaths but it does suggest there will be a lot fewer people cluttering up the hospitals this winter.
I would love to see a similar graph for serious road injuries.  I hope it shows a similar trend.

1flu.thumb.jpg.e3ede635902f8bec5fcb951be7513bbd.jpg

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I do not think Americans expect free quarantine. They pay their own in Hawaii, sstuck in hotel rooms for 2 weeks with food delivery. It is probably cheaper in New Zealand compared to Hawaii. Frankly we tend to be more time limited, it is te 2 weeks that would cut down the numbers more than the quarantine charge, NZ is a long expensive trip. I am not talking backpackers or students btw.

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46 minutes ago, Hawke said:

The NZ flu data tracking is seriously flawed and should be ignored.

You really are shit at this. The graph shows a large relative reduction in influenza–like illness symptoms (as stated in the title of the graph). It's not claiming to be an accurate tally of actual influenza infections, hospitalisations or deaths.

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7 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Rather than caving in the costs of quarantine should not fall on the taxpayers shoulders.

Fair call in my book.

Guess what!  Fair call in my book too.

I was essentially replying to your erroneous post #2328 where you clearly jumped the gun!

19 hours ago, Priscilla said:

You will need to add the cost of quarantine to your budget

Then, as now, there is no charge for quarantine.  Looks like there will be, some time in the near future.Here's the latest from today's NZ Herald:   'Cabinet will today discuss whether or not to charge returning New Zealanders for quarantine, but a final decision on any payment is unlikely.

'The minister responsible for managed isolation and quarantine, Megan Woods, told Morning Report: "There won't be a final decision today but we've been signalling for many, many weeks now that charging for managed isolation and quarantine is something that we need to consider.

'"It's very complex. There's a range of legal equity implementation issues that we've had to work our way through."'

 Further, it is pretty clear that apart from a few exceptions the policy will be only Kiwis or returning permanent residents making it through entry controls. Fugeddaboutit if you want to visit to watch a sailboat regatta. And it will be that way for months, or even years, depending on how other countries get their CoVid problems under control.

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Why is the ‘who pays?’ such big news in NZ? 
 

Even if the govt pays for most or all of their own-decreed quarantine mandate, it’s a minuscule part of the benefit to maintaining the invaluable, pristine health of the country. Were I a taxpayer, it’d have my thumbs up since it’s an excellent public safety investment. 

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3 hours ago, Kiwing said:

There is a good thing which is happening.
All this social distancing, masks, etc has stopped influenza killing most of the 500 people it kills each year.
This is a graph showing the drop in flu symptoms this year compared to the last 2 years.  It does not contain the number of deaths but it does suggest there will be a lot fewer people cluttering up the hospitals this winter.
I would love to see a similar graph for serious road injuries.  I hope it shows a similar trend.

1flu.thumb.jpg.e3ede635902f8bec5fcb951be7513bbd.jpg

Great to see your optimism Kiwing. But if they would not have survived influenza, what else did/will they not survive ?

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4 hours ago, Gissie said:

At the moment we don't want them coming as we can't even handle the number of Kiwis or permanent residents. Or are you suggesting rich tourists should have a priority?

 

4 hours ago, Gissie said:
  4 hours ago, RobG said:

On the other hand, if you want people to visit and spend their $12 billion or so per year (which includes government taxes, so they're tax payers too), you have to be prepared to invest in the cost of getting them into the country. Not saying that quarantine should be free for all and open slather, just that it's not 100% cost to the NZ taxpayer or economy.

Who are New Zealand's top spending tourists?

Money is not the answer to the problem.

NZ and its citizens paid an enormous price by shutting down the economy for two months.  Our country is essentially CoVid-free and we have controls in place to respond to any unexpected outbreaks. The borders are shut tight to outsiders. Returning Kiwis and permanent residents and a few special cases only please. For now we are healing, rebuilding our economy, and ramping up our intact and operational primary export industries.

Visitors will be welcome some time in the future to come here (but quarantine first for 14 days) if they are vaccinated against CoVid, or come from a country where CoVid is eliminated/controlled. In other words, not any time soon.

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3 minutes ago, Hawke said:

We are a trading nation and up until Covid-19 overseas Tourists was one of our biggest export industries.  How do you replace that?

Cut and then export more logs to China, maybe? 
 

It is not the Labour Party’s fault that the damn virus is hitting economies around the world, but it is for damn sure admirable to the rest of us how well NZ is currently protected. Has it, and will it, cost some and create a few changes? Yes, but it pales in comparison to the disasters many other countries are facing. 

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3 minutes ago, Hawke said:

Totally unnecessary shutdown.

I very much doubt it hence the need for draconian measures in the first place.

 

Excuse me?!  How does throwing borrowed money in random directions help sustainably "heal and rebuild our economy"?  Great you mentioned the primary export industries but given every action under the current Government is against them how are they going to pay of the debt to heal and rebuild as you put it?

NZ needs to face up to the fact that at some stage we will have to manage Covid-19 NOT ignore it.  We are a trading nation and up until Covid-19 overseas Tourists was one of our biggest export industries.  How do you replace that?

This is a nonsense statement.  Unless we get innovative with quarantine and opening up our borders very very soon then we are dead in the water.  

No more than the rest of the world, Hawke. We are doing just fine, comparitively - tour operators and hospitality industry aside.

Just so long as pandemics don't become 1 in 500 year storms, like we seem to get pretty frequently these days.

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55 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Cut and then export more logs to China, maybe? 
 

It is not the Labour Party’s fault that the damn virus is hitting economies around the world, but it is for damn sure admirable to the rest of us how well NZ is currently protected. Has it, and will it, cost some and create a few changes? Yes, but it pales in comparison to the disasters many other countries are facing. 

Yes, you Kiwi's get a "very well fucking done" all the way from little old Vancouver Canada. 

Keep up the good work, and ignore the fringe crazies, thankfully, they are few.

Oh, one the best things we did up here in Canada was, closing the border,

it really slowed down the spread, as the medical professionals recommendations helped us all learn to work around covid 19.

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Cut and then export more logs to China, maybe? 
 

It is not the Labour Party’s fault that the damn virus is hitting economies around the world, but it is for damn sure admirable to the rest of us how well NZ is currently protected. Has it, and will it, cost some and create a few changes? Yes, but it pales in comparison to the disasters many other countries are facing. 

I wish to acknowledge this exceptional moment of agreement with you stingers ... :P

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5 hours ago, Hawke said:

When influenza was first being compared with Covid-19 I did some research on influenza data capture in NZ.  I was appalled at what I discovered.  It is absolute crap.  No wonder the Government took the draconian actions they have because they appear to have no way of measuring what we've had in the community for decades!  FFS even the vaccination data is extremely lacking and of dubious quality.  Probably the reason why around 40% of available vaccines are not used in a given year.  

govt has no access or mandate to publish information available to HCP's that is contained under your personal heath care file

it could be compiled by individual HCP's and supplied as figures to the health dept if needed .. but the govt has no access to it .. nor should they

 

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3 hours ago, Hawke said:

if I was overseas I'd be staying put - why risk undertaking a risk process of travelling!  So someone should pay for the cost because "all these people are living it up for two weeks in flash hotels at our expense." 

and if you had several passports only one of which gave you access to all the free medical treatments and supplies you might need

and then you found you had been exposed to possible infection

would you do the same as many others seem to have

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poor hawkey

 

you can stamp rant all you like

you can even bring in anti enviro themes if you want

no one is listening anymore

 

we are mostly really happy with our current covid status

 

 

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11 hours ago, Kiwing said:

There is a good thing which is happening.
All this social distancing, masks, etc has stopped influenza killing most of the 500 people it kills each year.
This is a graph showing the drop in flu symptoms this year compared to the last 2 years.  It does not contain the number of deaths but it does suggest there will be a lot fewer people cluttering up the hospitals this winter.
I would love to see a similar graph for serious road injuries.  I hope it shows a similar trend.

1flu.thumb.jpg.e3ede635902f8bec5fcb951be7513bbd.jpg

 

9 hours ago, Hawke said:

 

As for mask wearing and social distancing impacts on flu it would be lockdowns that have had the greatest impact.  In NZ there hasn't been a widespread use of masks.  Also those that die from the flu also have underlying conditions and one would assume they have been careful this season.  Another plus maybe that more people got flu vaccinations.

Regardless, it’s a very good point for the coming winter in Europe, where people do wear masks and practice social distancing

 

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In countries like NZ with single payer (government ) health plans with coverage for all eligible, it can make sense to lump THEIR quarantine into the health budget and pay for it. 

But recalling my visit, NZ is very wary of any

visitors trying to mooch free healthcare. So it is cray-cray and inconsistent not to make tourist visitors pay their quarantine costs.  

Round us up at the border, stuff us in quarantine and make us pay. If it's clearly set out upfront, nobody will be surprised. Those who can't afford it...well, how much are they going to spend on their visit anyway? Do you plan to subsidize backpackers? Good. Let me get online to REI now... ;)

But PS, if you need quarantine in US bring a credit card. You pay. 

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There have been 24 fewer deaths on the roads from the 1st January this year 6% drop which is hardly significant.

I hear there has been more road deaths in the states few cars means more reckless drivers apparently?

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1 hour ago, Kiwing said:

There have been 24 fewer deaths on the roads from the 1st January this year 6% drop which is hardly significant.

I hear there has been more road deaths in the states few cars means more reckless drivers apparently?

yes, disproportionately more risky drivers and less congestion so higher speed 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-roads-are-quieter-due-to-coronavirus-but-there-are-more-fatal-car-crashes-11588152600

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27 minutes ago, Hawke said:

So you speak for all New Zealanders or just the retired "I'm doing OK in the Far North population"?

the word most does not mean all

as a side note it happens to be all i have talked to personally

and

most i have talked to online ( you and some right wing greedies being the exceptions )

 

 

29 minutes ago, Hawke said:

Interesting trait amongst people is when they are away in another country they suddenly spring a sense of patriotism and use the Royal "We"!

 

i dont see any relevance to the points in hand .. but ok

i have used the term "we" for almost as long as i have been alive

 

26 minutes ago, Hawke said:

We are not talking personally identifiable information but data.  I'll make it simple for you so you understand - Patient X presented at GP surgery Y with Flu like symptoms. 

That doesn't invade anyone's privacy. 

 

obviously i haven't made it simple enough for you to stay on point

the govt does not have access to personal health files ( nor should they )

the information is available to HCP's and therefor DHB's   ( health care professionals and district health boards for our os readers )

to get an accurate figure all its needs is a coordinated request to each dhb > hcp to supply them .. not a common request so likely hasn't been done and only comes out in some generalized report once a year .. possibly for planning on what drugs need buying for the next year .. trend wise

 

... awaiting next stamp rant filled with semantic and diversion arguments

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Hawke said:

As opposed to the Governments new app that traces you every movement if you have a smart phone.

no it doesnt

 

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9 minutes ago, phill_nz said:

no it doesnt

 

Here's a test which hawke should take immediately..he might even "ace" it :D and get 35 right out of 30...

818216289_MOCACongitivetest.thumb.jpg.0e61eecbf8d01b6646582f64d60f8ebe.jpg

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2 hours ago, Hawke said:

Rubbish.  We are not talking personally identifiable information but data.  I'll make it simple for you so you understand - Patient X presented at GP surgery Y with Flu like symptoms. 

That doesn't invade anyone's privacy. 

As opposed to the Governments new app that traces you every movement if you have a smart phone.

Which is why hardly anyone is using it, Hawke.

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i would not agree at all .. it interjects a safety zone between my personal health information and the govt

 

doesn't prove anything of the kind

unless your idea of proof is the same as what appears to be your idea of reality

 

sparse with tenuous links at best

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Hawke, you should run for POTUS in the coming presidential election in the US! :D

(Running and ducking..): 

Is Crusher Collins far enough right-wing for you? 

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22 minutes ago, Hawke said:

That's warped logic.  If it is harder to find out the number of people with flu then it is safer for my privacy!  Warped!  

43 minutes ago, phill_nz said:

 

 

finished your stamp rant yet ?

your a card

diversion on tangential again

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15 minutes ago, Hawke said:

What I will say anything would be better than this totalitarian mob of 3. 

? Let me guess:  

The ‘mob of 3’ are health-science and climate-change believers? 

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Is Crusher Collins far enough right-wing for you? 

She's hardly right-wing. More like, Labour-lite.

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4 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

She's hardly right-wing. More like, Labour-lite.

Ha ha ha, says a lot about your position on the spectrum.

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8 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Which is why hardly anyone is using it, Hawke.

Clue less

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8 hours ago, Hawke said:

I haven't gone on a tangent at all.  However your level of literacy is handicapping your ability to keep up any sort of logical debate. 

your almost always on a tangent

the personal abuse on a subject you know absolutely nothing about is a bit ott

but we have come to expect that on your stamp rants

its one of the endearing things that make you so worth not bothering with

 

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