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Hard On The Wind

Bend over and brace yourself America because here comes the big phallus of capitalism.

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The Boeing Company has been leading the market down. Their stock price has fallen 72% in the last month. They will not be able to make scheduled payments on the $30 Billion of debt they are carrying -- they have a negative cash flow.
 
Time to socialize the losses again. Boeing is now begging for a government "BAIL OUT".
 
"TOO BIG TO FAIL" the paid-off Senators say.
 
Bend over and brace yourself America because here comes the big phallus of capitalism.

BTW it's still bonus time in Seattle --- Fired Boeing C.E.O. Muilenburg Will Get More Than $60 Million

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/10/business/boeing-dennis-muilenburg-severance.html

Dennis Muilenburg is contractually entitled to receive stock and pension awards worth $62.2 million.

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Too big to fail. WTF? Boeing is already a failure. It is all over but the crying. Put them out of their misery along with all the other old corporations on life support.

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I'm a capitalist (Bernie take that) and I say they need to file for bankruptcy, reorganize, fire all the overpaid execs and continue making airplanes. Hard to imagine Boeing will shut down as their products are too important. We will just see a differently structured company and/or a different owner.

If the Orange Clown's government does a bailout we will see the execs keeping their big salaries and the workers getting screwed. Unfortunately I will bet that the rest of the DC Mafia on both sides of the aisle will fall in line.

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8 minutes ago, Hard On The Wind said:
The Boeing Company has been leading the market down. Their stock price has fallen 72% in the last month. They will not be able to make scheduled payments on the $30 Billion of debt they are carrying -- they have a negative cash flow.
 
Time to socialize the losses again. Boeing is now begging for a government "BAIL OUT".
 
"TOO BIG TO FAIL" the paid-off Senators say.
 
Bend over and brace yourself America because here comes the big phallus of capitalism.

BTW it's still bonus time in Seattle --- Fired Boeing C.E.O. Muilenburg Will Get More Than $60 Million

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/10/business/boeing-dennis-muilenburg-severance.html

Dennis Muilenburg is contractually entitled to receive stock and pension awards worth $62.2 million.

Joining the CEO Hall of Shame along with Jack Welch (GE), Harold Geneen (ITT), the Enron and Washington Mutual guys and others.

His particular brilliant idea was to move production away from a highly skilled workforce, then move the executives away from any contact with production.  

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7 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

Too big to fail. WTF? Boeing is already a failure. It is all over but the crying. Put them out of their misery along with all the other old corporations on life support.

Bankruptcy(stockholders get nothing), spin off the space and military divisions and MAYBE I'd support a gov't loan.

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6 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Bankruptcy(stockholders get nothing), spin off the space and military divisions and MAYBE I'd support a gov't loan.

The stockholders had little to do with putting the idiots in charge. 

The critical problems are that Boeing has been a huge percentage of US export value, and that there are only two significant airline manufacturers in the world.  China would step into the void left by Boeing in about 2 seconds.  

The Obama playbook for the auto industry probably provides the best guidance.  Fat chance of anyone in this mal-administration even knowing where to find a copy.

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Remember how our parents would respond when as kids we would cry that 'whatever' was unfair.  They would say, shut up, life is unfair, get used to it.

Boy howdy were they ever right. 

Your average hourly worker makes a couple of little missteps and out the door they go.  These CEOs collect outrageous salaries, collectively lay off millions, drive the company into the ground and then they get fired and collect a huge bonus.  WTF?

I don't know if I can ever get used to that shit.

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Just now, Left Shift said:

The problems are that Boeing has been a huge percentage of US export value, and that there are only two significant airline manufacturers in the world.

The stockholders had little to do with putting the idiots in charge.  The Obama playbook for the auto industry probably provides the best guidance.  Fat chance of anyone in this mal-administration even knowing where to find a copy.

The problem is they fucked the 737Max (with gov't cooperation)

That was a mgmt failure.

Agree that we want to keep the commercial air company alive, and the rest should be given to creditors for dispensation.

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'Too big to Fail' is simply a bullshit concept. Boeing or any of the others (including the banks) can and should be allowed to fail. The production of aircraft (or dubious financial instruments) need not stop. That is how reorganization works.

Boeing needs to reorganize quickly, before some fuckwit politicians in Washington State propose the state's taxpayers save the company.

Japan went all-in on Too Big to Fail decades ago. Widely considered a big mistake in leadership.

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2 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

'Too big to Fail' is simply a bullshit concept. Boeing or any of the others (including the banks) can and should be allowed to fail. The production of aircraft (or dubious financial instruments) need not stop. That is how reorganization works.

Boeing needs to reorganize quickly, before some fuckwit politicians in Washington State propose the state's taxpayers save the company.

Japan went all-in on Too Big to Fail decades ago. Widely considered a big mistake in leadership.

The Rs are all about free markets, pure capitalism, and social Darwinism unless it involves big corporations.  

In a true free market, if a company like Boeing went under due to that kind of mismanagement, a consortium of investors would buy up the corpse, install new management, and turn it into a money maker in short order.

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1 minute ago, Ed Lada said:

The Rs are all about free markets, pure capitalism, and social Darwinism unless it involves big corporations.  

In a true free market, if a company like Boeing went under due to that kind of mismanagement, a consortium of investors would buy up the corpse, install new management, and turn it into a money maker in short order.

The huge danger in reorganization is that the political contributions might dry up for a while. Talk about a crisis. That would hit too close to home for many.

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40 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

Remember how our parents would respond when as kids we would cry that 'whatever' was unfair.  They would say, shut up, life is unfair, get used to it.

Boy howdy were they ever right. 

Your average hourly worker makes a couple of little missteps and out the door they go.  These CEOs collect outrageous salaries, collectively lay off millions, drive the company into the ground and then they get fired and collect a huge bonus.  WTF?

I don't know if I can ever get used to that shit.

It's the new crony capitalism, largely enabled because of the stock holdings of the large institutional investors that own major blocks of stock and either don't vote them, or hand a proxy to their favorite member. Insurance companies, mutual funds, retirement funds, are the culprit.

The joint stock company is a very pure form of democracy, but it has been perverted into this dysfunctional mutant stepchild where the guy who holds the cookie jar gets to claim all the cookies, and the others in the dining room let him because thye figure it will be their turn next. The guys in the kitchen doing th ebaking, the guys at the mill doing the grinding, the guys in the field growing the wheat... fuck them, they're easily replaceable. And about 40% of them are gullible enough to be convinced to let the 1%ers have whatever they want.

- DSK

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35 minutes ago, El Boracho said:
39 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

The Rs are all about free markets, pure capitalism, and social Darwinism unless it involves big corporations.  

In a true free market, if a company like Boeing went under due to that kind of mismanagement, a consortium of investors would buy up the corpse, install new management, and turn it into a money maker in short order.

The huge danger in reorganization is that the political contributions might dry up for a while. Talk about a crisis. That would hit too close to home for many.

That, and you'd have to get rid of all the top tier executive pay, perks, and golden parachutes. Money might have to trickle out to the little people, even.

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There are 150,000 employees at Boeing.

Just something to think about.

That $60,000,000 should be retrieved before any talk of assistance.

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1 hour ago, Left Shift said:

The stockholders had little to do with putting the idiots in charge. 

Eh? They approved these idiots for years. They preferred dividends & buybacks to investing money in development of a new plane, the result is failure. So as you said, like with GM, wipe out the equity holders and move on.

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24 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Eh? They approved these idiots for years. They preferred dividends & buybacks to investing money in development of a new plane, the result is failure. So as you said, like with GM, wipe out the equity holders and move on.

The majority shareholders, the hedge funds and the big players, you are absolutely right.  I was referring to the mom & pop investors who have little to no voice.

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

It's the new crony capitalism, largely enabled because of the stock holdings of the large institutional investors that own major blocks of stock and either don't vote them, or hand a proxy to their favorite member. Insurance companies, mutual funds, retirement funds, are the culprit.

That is interesting. Likely correct. One could suppose a great amount of incestuous inbreeding between the various boards of directors.

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

...  Money might have to trickle out to the little people, even.

COMMUNIST! THEY DIDN'T EARN IT! I NEVER GOT MINE, WHY SHOULD THEY? PENALIZING JOB CREATORS!

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But, but clearly the trickle down works....... if you're at the top, get fired and still bank 60 mill, it's what is making merica great again.

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1 minute ago, El Boracho said:
1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

Money might have to trickle out to the little people, even.

COMMUNIST! THEY DIDN'T EARN IT! I NEVER GOT MINE, WHY SHOULD THEY? PENALIZING JOB CREATORS!

Yeah, why do you want to punish the success of those CEOs who have done so-o much for the country?

- DSK

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Why bail out Boeing? A hundred year old company just sticking wings on a tube to burn fossil fuels. Or GM for that matter. Bail out Tesla...except Musk isn't asking (?) and probably lacks any real representation in DC.

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6 minutes ago, Henley Hornbrook said:

Boeing has recently asked the state of Washington to remove a huge tax break it was receiving. 

Sorry to be cynical, but while that reads nice, when you are facing net losses across the board, and a negative order book, tax breaks don't mean much.

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Well, I dunno if she is tough enough for you folks - - 

Wait, I got it!  She forgot the pitchforks !!

Elizabeth Warren demands eight conditions attached to a bailout package for business, including a $15 minimum wage for workers, a ban on share buybacks, and no dividends or executive bonuses for 3 years.

View image on Twitter

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7 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Well, I dunno if she is tough enough for you folks - - 

Wait, I got it!  She forgot the pitchforks !!

Elizabeth Warren demands eight conditions attached to a bailout package for business, including a $15 minimum wage for workers, a ban on share buybacks, and no dividends or executive bonuses for 3 years.

View image on Twitter

Secretary of the Treasury looking good.

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dem america has that mind at its disposal and we end up with two 90 year olds in the primary.  fucking numbskulls.

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2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

dem america has that mind at its disposal and we end up with two 90 year olds in the primary.  fucking numbskulls.

Agree, Warren scares the shit out of Corporate america because she would make them behave fairly and dispense with the bullshittery, now if Biden gave her a VP ticket that could get really interesting.

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Boeing is too big to fail. No to mention being a military contractor
The Pacific Northwest economy would be devastated for years.
There is a right way and a wrong way to save it. 
On the plus side, home prices in Seattle would drop to only ridiculously over priced.
If you want something to complain about you can also  focus on US shipyards and the out dated Jones Act protections they get. 
 

 

 

 

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Jones Act is some socialist shit (until there is a war).

 

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1 hour ago, Left Shift said:

The majority shareholders, the hedge funds and the big players, you are absolutely right.  I was referring to the mom & pop investors who have little to no voice.

I know several pensioners who’ll take a hit too.

im just not sure what to do to end this. McNerney and Muilenberg took in $10s of millions to fuck things up. Calhoun, BA board member gets to be CEO and say “I didn’t know what the fuck was going on” which translates as “I didn’t do my job” 

 It’s rotten.

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27 minutes ago, Navig8tor said:

Agree, Warren scares the shit out of Corporate america because she would make them behave fairly and dispense with the bullshittery, now if Biden gave her a VP ticket that could get really interesting.

I'm betting Harris or Gov. Grisham from New Mexico.  

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1 hour ago, Left Shift said:

The majority shareholders, the hedge funds and the big players, you are absolutely right.  I was referring to the mom & pop investors who have little to no voice.

Every year they are able to vote on remuneration, directors etc. Just because their voices are little does not absolve them of any responsibility.

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1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

Well, I dunno if she is tough enough for you folks - - 

Wait, I got it!  She forgot the pitchforks !!

Elizabeth Warren demands eight conditions attached to a bailout package for business, including a $15 minimum wage for workers, a ban on share buybacks, and no dividends or executive bonuses for 3 years.

View image on Twitter

All of those conditions strike me as eminently reasonable.

After all they can always not take the money and keep right on with their first class top-shelf management....

FKT

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54 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Jones Act is some socialist shit (until there is a war).

 

We have many more friendly allies with ship building capabilities now  than the last war. And new battles will be via air.  Big ships are too big targets now  

we need to support and keep a few yards and dry docks open on 3 coasts for subs, military etc like New London, Newport News, but there is zero need to build large commercial ships in the USA.  Most of Europe stopped long ago except for fancy cruise ships  

Jones Act now is a social program  

 

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2 hours ago, El Boracho said:

That is interesting. Likely correct. One could suppose a great amount of incestuous inbreeding between the various boards of directors.

Suppose?

Take a look at the names on the boards of major corporations - you'll see the same sames time & again.

Politicians retire and make a new career out of directorships.

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

dem america has that mind at its disposal and we end up with two 90 year olds in the primary.  fucking numbskulls.

I dunno - she sounds pretty commie to me.

Definitely socialist at least.

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50 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:

Every year they are able to vote on remuneration, directors etc. Just because their voices are little does not absolve them of any responsibility.

You've never had much to do with shareholder meetings have you?

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17 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

We have many more friendly allies with ship building capabilities now  than the last war. And new battles will be via air.  Big ships are too big targets now  

we need to support and keep a few yards and dry docks open on 3 coasts for subs, military etc like New London, Newport News, but there is zero need to build large commercial ships in the USA.  Most of Europe stopped long ago except for fancy cruise ships  

Jones Act now is a social program  

 

Hows outsourcing all our medical manufacturing going for us today?

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

dem america has that mind at its disposal and we end up with two 90 year olds in the primary.  fucking numbskulls.

I completely agree. The party just doesn’t seem to want a likable moderate anymore. They’d get my vote. 

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3 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I completely agree. The party just doesn’t seem to want a likable moderate anymore. They’d get my vote. 

Uh........

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2 hours ago, Henley Hornbrook said:

Boeing has recently asked the state of Washington to remove a huge tax break it was receiving. 

They only did that because they were sued by the WTO and EU for unfair government subsidies and where facing huge tariffs.

But bail or fail, it sucks for all the support machine shops with Boeing contracts.

 

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

You've never had much to do with shareholder meetings have you?

If a bunch of people control most of the shares and vote for stuff that the individuals don't like, they should take their money elsewhere.

They enjoyed the up. Sometimes there's also down.

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1 hour ago, Battlecheese said:

If a bunch of people control most of the shares and vote for stuff that the individuals don't like, they should take their money elsewhere.

They enjoyed the up. Sometimes there's also down.

You and JerKZ must have been separated at birth.

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3 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Hows outsourcing all our medical manufacturing going for us today?

You mean offshoring? 

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I did. Thank you for the correction.

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6 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I did. Thank you for the correction.

de nada . .

I certainly make my share . . 

Now that I have been nice, how about flicking the Wof? 

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4 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

All of those conditions strike me as eminently reasonable.

Well yeah, but yer a ferriner . . 

Here in the apex of the empire, we have to run it by our corporate overlords first. 

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5 hours ago, Fakenews said:

An excellent op-Ed from Al Jazeera.  The market crash is not due to COVID-19 but rather voodoo economics.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/market-crash-virus-blame-delusional-economics-200317140514760.html

They've managed to kick the can for 12 years. It was a pretty good run while it lasted. I think it got stuck in a pothole this time though.

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When Boeing fucked over Bombardier, Airbus stepped in to take over the production of a great aircraft (A220).  Boeing had no competitive aircraft in that size range, but they went after Bombardier anyway because their management are bullies and they knew Bombardier wasn't strong enough to fight them.  What is happening now is karma.  

Maybe Airbus would now like to participate in taking over the heavily discounted assets of Boeing?

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8 hours ago, Navig8tor said:

Agree, Warren scares the shit out of Corporate america because she would make them behave fairly and dispense with the bullshittery, now if Biden gave her a VP ticket that could get really interesting.

I think if Biden makes her his running mate he will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Surly she is as unpalatable to many swaying Business owners as Comrade Sanders? But I guess the VP is irrelevant - unless the POTUS is elderly of course.

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2 minutes ago, Rain Man said:

When Boeing fucked over Bombardier, Airbus stepped in to take over the production of a great aircraft (A220).  Boeing had no competitive aircraft in that size range, but they went after Bombardier anyway because their management are bullies and they knew Bombardier wasn't strong enough to fight them.  What is happening now is karma.  

Maybe Airbus would now like to participate in taking over the heavily discounted assets of Boeing?

Yes a global monopoly will work wonders for an airline industry already operating on wafer thin margins.

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9 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

dem america has that mind at its disposal and we end up with two 90 year olds in the primary.  fucking numbskulls.

"That mind?"  She's no genius. She's an intelligent person with common sense and normal ethical standards.

Which makes her a rarity in American politics. Old Joe would be well advised to pick her for VP. 

If she actually makes it to VP, she'd better have uber-security because corporate America will be gunning for her.

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9 hours ago, El Boracho said:

That is interesting. Likely correct. One could suppose a great amount of incestuous inbreeding between the various boards of directors.

"It's a club. And you're not in it...…" --- George Carlin. An American prophet disguised as a comedian.

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34 minutes ago, Happy said:

"That mind?"  She's no genius. She's an intelligent person with common sense and normal ethical standards.

Which makes her a rarity in American politics. Old Joe would be well advised to pick her for VP. 

If she actually makes it to VP, she'd better have uber-security because corporate America will be gunning for her.

VP is kind of a useless role unless the POTUS snuffs it. Better appoint her Secretary of Commerce or some such role.

Of course the Senate might balk at confirming her but Trump has set a precedent with 'acting' appointments that seem to go on forever so - shrug. Might be a bit late for the Senate to bitch about that.

FKT

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Just now, Fah Kiew Tu said:

VP is kind of a useless role unless the POTUS snuffs it. Better appoint her Secretary of Commerce or some such role.

 

If Biden wasn't older than Keith Richards that would be the go. A betting man would calculate that the odds of Joe not completing one term would be maybe worth a wild flutter. 

And whether VP or SecCom, she would have no chance of getting her quoted-above rules through. As a replacement Prez she'd have a chance.

It would be very difficult to make the USA adopt the type of rules that make up a civilized capitalist society.

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11 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

 

Of course the Senate might balk at confirming her but Trump has set a precedent with 'acting' appointments that seem to go on forever so - shrug. Might be a bit late for the Senate to bitch about that.

FKT

If Trump can somehow rescue the economy and the health of the country before November, he wins.  If not, he gets crushed and the republican senate along with him.  

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8 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

If Trump can somehow rescue the economy and the health of the country before November, he wins.  If not, he gets crushed and the republican senate along with him.  

I read a report today that Susan Collins has replaced Moscow Mitch as the most unpopular senator. It's about time. Maybe some of Trump's toadies are not going to get the nod this time around.

Quote

Collins is running for a fifth term in the Senate in the toughest race of her long career. “Her brand is a centrist, a pragmatic legislator who works across the aisle—and that took a hit when she voted to confirm Kavanaugh and when she voted against removing President Trump,” says Jessica Taylor, who monitors Senate races for the nonpartisan Cook Political Report. “Those are seminal moments, and they make it much harder for her to be seen as a pragmatic lawmaker.” 

Collins is one of the last of a kind, the lawmaker whose image is based on crossing the aisle and standing up to party doctrine. “In the age of Trump, it is much harder to have any moderate image, and she is a victim of that,” says Taylor. After impeachment, Collins said she felt Trump had learned his lesson. Immediately after, he made it clear he had not. 

Voters who once applauded Collins’ thoughtful pragmatism now increasingly see her as having gone to the well once too often, and that when she arrives at her final position, it was the one she was going to take all along. 

Her decline in favorability is stunning. In 2016, according to a Morning Consult survey, she was the second most popular senator after Bernie Sanders. In January of this year, a Morning Consult poll tracker found that Collins is now the most unpopular senator, eclipsing Republican leader Mitch McConnell, who had held the position for some time. 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/susan-collins-obama-era-vote-against-pandemic-funding-comes-back-to-haunt-her?ref=home

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21 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Bankruptcy(stockholders get nothing), spin off the space and military divisions and MAYBE I'd support a gov't loan.

What contribution does the space and military divisions make for the economy?

Anyway, Grumman is going balls to the wall, based on how busy my Grumman friends are these days.

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9 hours ago, Happy said:

"It's a club. And you're not in it...…" --- George Carlin. An American prophet disguised as a comedian.

 

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22 minutes ago, mikewof said:

What contribution does the space and military divisions make for the economy?

About 1% more than if they simply paid the same millions of people full salary to sit at home doing nothing. The actual economic contribution of all those ships and plane must be near zero. Maybe negative if one subtracts the damaged lives of soldiers. Way negative if one looks as the world as one and therefore subtract the damaged lives of the less fortunate targets of pointless wars. Slight positive bump for supporting research into killing people that unintentionally had a peaceful spin-off.

So the contribution is likely negative.

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10 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

About 1% more than if they simply paid the same millions of people full salary to sit at home doing nothing. The actual economic contribution of all those ships and plane must be near zero. Maybe negative if one subtracts the damaged lives of soldiers. Way negative if one looks as the world as one and therefore subtract the damaged lives of the less fortunate targets of pointless wars. Slight positive bump for supporting research into killing people that unintentionally had a peaceful spin-off.

So the contribution is likely negative.

It's definitely negative, those were Dwight Eisenhower's parting words. But we need a defense, so the consumer products end up supporting the military products. I assume that was Razor's idea with spinning them off, he doesn't want the bailout to support the space and military components. But when they are spun off, then what supports those? Our taxes.

At least when they're part of the same company they can transfer some of the work back and forth. Ultimately, as economic warfare replaces blood warfare, the military components become consumed.

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22 hours ago, Hard On The Wind said:
The Boeing Company has been leading the market down. Their stock price has fallen 72% in the last month. They will not be able to make scheduled payments on the $30 Billion of debt they are carrying -- they have a negative cash flow.
 
Time to socialize the losses again. Boeing is now begging for a government "BAIL OUT".
 
"TOO BIG TO FAIL" the paid-off Senators say.
 
Bend over and brace yourself America because here comes the big phallus of capitalism.

BTW it's still bonus time in Seattle --- Fired Boeing C.E.O. Muilenburg Will Get More Than $60 Million

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/10/business/boeing-dennis-muilenburg-severance.html

Dennis Muilenburg is contractually entitled to receive stock and pension awards worth $62.2 million.

If you’ve ever wondered what the thing sticking out of the corporate logo is?


 

 

100050AA-E5FC-43C6-A2B3-4B6D506647E0.jpeg

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

What contribution does the space and military divisions make for the economy?

Anyway, Grumman is going balls to the wall, based on how busy my Grumman friends are these days.

The economic multiplier (how much $1 recirculates in the US economy) for military expenditures went negative back in the Bush/Cheney years, thanks to outsourcing/offshoring as much as possible. It trending back up a little under the Kenyan and I have not tracked it lately since I don't own any military-industrial stocks.

Bottom line- every dollar the US gov't spends on the military is money sucked out of the national economic cycle. What used to stimulate the economy is now a drain

- DSK

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19 hours ago, Cristoforo said:

The Pacific Northwest economy would be devastated for years.
 

 

There is also a decent sized plant in South Carolina, next door to Charleston's airport.

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42 minutes ago, mikewof said:

It's definitely negative, those were Dwight Eisenhower's parting words. But we need a defense, so the consumer products end up supporting the military products. I assume that was Razor's idea with spinning them off, he doesn't want the bailout to support the space and military components. But when they are spun off, then what supports those? Our taxes.

At least when they're part of the same company they can transfer some of the work back and forth. Ultimately, as economic warfare replaces blood warfare, the military components become consumed.

Actually, I was thinking about corporate structure and how to pay off the existing creditors, not the US-wide ramifications. In a non "OMG THE SKY IS FALLING SOCIALIZE THE LOSSES" scenario, the court would look at the company, say "well, you guys in Commercial fucked the pooch on the Max, but there are still assets in Space and Defense. Sell those off." Then they'd package up the damaged goods, either recapitalize (likely given the underlying product strength other than the MAX) or sell the assets off to the highest bidder.

Space and Defense do have the Feds as their prime customer, but it doesn't really matter from a corp structure perspective. 

The way this is going to shake out is the Taxpayer is going to take the hit for the MAX debacle, and there will be a couple hundred of those that get to join the desert fleet.

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7 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Actually, I was thinking about corporate structure and how to pay off the existing creditors, not the US-wide ramifications. In a non "OMG THE SKY IS FALLING SOCIALIZE THE LOSSES" scenario, the court would look at the company, say "well, you guys in Commercial fucked the pooch on the Max, but there are still assets in Space and Defense. Sell those off." Then they'd package up the damaged goods, either recapitalize (likely given the underlying product strength other than the MAX) or sell the assets off to the highest bidder.

Space and Defense do have the Feds as their prime customer, but it doesn't really matter from a corp structure perspective. 

The way this is going to shake out is the Taxpayer is going to take the hit for the MAX debacle, and there will be a couple hundred of those that get to join the desert fleet.

Are they that structurally different from the standard model that you couldn't bolt on new wings/engines, update the Atari control system, and yer good?

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24 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Are they that structurally different from the standard model that you couldn't bolt on new wings/engines, update the Atari control system, and yer good?

After about a decade of design, sales efforts, prototyping, certifying and production ramp up, sure.  

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50 years ago, Boeing employed 80,000 or so, about 1/7th of the PNW workforce.  Especially since corporate ran out of town and tripped over the MAX carpet, they are something of a sideshow as far as civic presence and impact.

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

Are they that structurally different from the standard model that you couldn't bolt on new wings/engines, update the Atari control system, and yer good?

Yeah, that’s the problem. They ended up making a 737 mod as an all new plane would be more regulated, and they wanted it out there. So they added too much weight and power so needed that Atari system. But that shit didn’t work.

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2 hours ago, Left Shift said:

50 years ago, Boeing employed 80,000 or so, about 1/7th of the PNW workforce.  Especially since corporate ran out of town and tripped over the MAX carpet, they are something of a sideshow as far as civic presence and impact.

Yup.  Good story-  When Stonecipher discovered the guy living next to him, who liked to wear distressed jeans and plaid flannel shirts,  made an order of magnitude more (Henry thought the guy was casing the neighborhood, but he was just checking out his Rhododendrons, Henry tried to chase him away,  and then our mystery guest introduced himself to Henry), it was over for corporate in Seattle.  English hill (or was it Medina?) gossip. Boeing has never been the same.  (Didn’t help that Henry was cheating on his wife with a Boeing employee)

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24 minutes ago, Amati said:

Yup.  Good story-  When Stonecipher discovered the guy living next to him, who liked to wear distressed jeans and plaid flannel shirts,  made an order of magnitude more (Henry thought the guy was casing the neighborhood, but he was just checking out his Rhododendrons, Henry tried to chase him away,  and then our mystery guest introduced himself to Henry), it was over for corporate in Seattle.  English hill (or was it Medina?) gossip. Boeing has never been the same.  (Didn’t help that Henry was cheating on his wife with a Boeing employee)

Stonecipher? GE. That’s the problem

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3 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Stonecipher? GE. That’s the problem

Infections start somewhere.

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35 minutes ago, Amati said:

Yup.  Good story-  When Stonecipher discovered the guy living next to him, who liked to wear distressed jeans and plaid flannel shirts,  made an order of magnitude more (Henry thought the guy was casing the neighborhood, but he was just checking out his Rhododendrons, Henry tried to chase him away,  and then our mystery guest introduced himself to Henry), it was over for corporate in Seattle.  English hill (or was it Medina?) gossip. Boeing has never been the same.  (Didn’t help that Henry was cheating on his wife with a Boeing employee)

The rhodies are still there.  Nobody else from that story though.

(English Hill is kind of a dump.)

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Relevant to this thread is the other one about Reich-Wing Congress-critters 

and Corona-V insider trading. 

DiFi too - if she's in on it, dump her as well

 

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I wonder whether the capital system as we know it will survive the virus.  The tools are not there for an economic remedy, especially if a battle comes between neo-liberalism (monetarist) and Keynesian approaches and worldwide everybody goes off on separate pages.  Some places are already down to 0% FEDS.  Japan, USA, Denmark.  Where can a money based system go?  It has been said that fiscal policy cannot cure the virus.  If it stays around a while, what will emerge?  A collapse of the 1%.  Not if they can help it.  The conversion of rogue to working capital with the price of gold, diamonds and classic cars falling?  Great if that can happen. Too soon to tell.

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23 hours ago, Left Shift said:

50 years ago, Boeing employed 80,000 or so, about 1/7th of the PNW workforce.  Especially since corporate ran out of town and tripped over the MAX carpet, they are something of a sideshow as far as civic presence and impact.

Yeah, they only have about 70K employees in Wa.

Plus all the spinoff employment - IIRC 5 to 1 is the usual ratio.

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Yeah, they only have about 70K employees in Wa.

Plus all the spinoff employment - IIRC 5 to 1 is the usual ratio.

Lots of employees but no civic presence.  How they can hide their light so thoroughly has always been amazing to me.

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3 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Lots of employees but no civic presence.  How they can hide their light so thoroughly has always been amazing to me.

They have to save it up to pay off the latest failure in leadership.

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