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"High Performace" Stitch and Glue Kits?

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I'm considering using this forced downtime to build a stitch and glue dinghy. 

The paperjet looks interesting. I've also seen another design  in person that was around 15-16' and had an unstayed wishbone rig, but can't seem to find anything online that resembles it. 

Would like to find a kit with CNC'd pre-cut panels if possible, sails/rig must be easily sourced - any recommendations?

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  5. KIS 4.2S

KIS 4.2S

KIS dinghy

We designed KIS dinghies in order to meet a very practical need of amateur boatbuilders. Since they often find themselves in trouble in building masts, sails and rig of their boats and are likely to spend in these items much more than what they paid for the materials to build the hull , we thought to design four boats, simple and easy to build, suitable to be rigged with spars and sails of four very popular dinghies : Laser , Flying Junior and 470. This allows the builder to easily find equipment and accessories for his boat, either buying them new from dealers either finding them on the second hand market.

The KIS 4.2S is compatible with the rig of the Laser, the popular single designed by Bruce Kirby in 1971, and it is, like the Laser, a simple boat of brilliant performances. The hull is flat bottomed, with two chines, which allows to build an almost round hull with a simple technique. The cockpit is small to avoid that in case of capsize the water remains on board. The cockpit has a double bottom at the level of the waterline, with a scupper which allows to empty the water eventually boarded. To reduce the possibility of water entering into the cockpit the foredeck is cambered. The letter refers to the number of crew: S stands for single.

More information at: www.bcademco.it

Design Specs

Designer: 
Paolo Lodigiani and Matteo Costa
Year of Design: 
2014
LOA: 
4,23m
Beam: 
1,35m
Displacement: 
70 kg (hull weight)
Materials: 
Wood
Skill Level to Build: 
amateur
Available as: 
Complete Plans
Cost: 
52€
Contact Information: 

B.C.A. Demco kit
via Ricciarelli 21 - 20148 MILANO - ITALY
Tel / Fax: +39 02.4870.8331
E-Mail: bcademco@gmail.com

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If you're building a boat primarily for the fun of building it then these catalogue designs/kits are fine, but I have grave doubts about how good some of the end results are as actual sailing craft.

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

If you're building a boat primarily for the fun of building it then these catalogue designs/kits are fine, but I have grave doubts about how good some of the end results are as actual sailing craft.

Good point... I'm particularly struck by the one that uses a Laser rig. Given that it seems to weigh about the same, why would you? You can buy a Laser hull for whatever you are prepared to spend on it... so why not just sail that!  The cheapest way to buy the rig is probably to buy a "complete" old boat, anyway!!

 Definitely worth focussing on what you want to get out of the project before you get into it.

Cheers,

               W.

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2 hours ago, Old Yeller said:
HomeToggle navigation
 
  1. Resources
  2.  
  3. Boat Plans & Kits
  4.  
  5. KIS 4.2S

KIS 4.2S

KIS dinghy

We designed KIS dinghies in order to meet a very practical need of amateur boatbuilders. Since they often find themselves in trouble in building masts, sails and rig of their boats and are likely to spend in these items much more than what they paid for the materials to build the hull , we thought to design four boats, simple and easy to build, suitable to be rigged with spars and sails of four very popular dinghies : Laser , Flying Junior and 470. This allows the builder to easily find equipment and accessories for his boat, either buying them new from dealers either finding them on the second hand market.

The KIS 4.2S is compatible with the rig of the Laser, the popular single designed by Bruce Kirby in 1971, and it is, like the Laser, a simple boat of brilliant performances. The hull is flat bottomed, with two chines, which allows to build an almost round hull with a simple technique. The cockpit is small to avoid that in case of capsize the water remains on board. The cockpit has a double bottom at the level of the waterline, with a scupper which allows to empty the water eventually boarded. To reduce the possibility of water entering into the cockpit the foredeck is cambered. The letter refers to the number of crew: S stands for single.

More information at: www.bcademco.it

Design Specs

Designer: 
Paolo Lodigiani and Matteo Costa
Year of Design: 
2014
LOA: 
4,23m
Beam: 
1,35m
Displacement: 
70 kg (hull weight)
Materials: 
Wood
Skill Level to Build: 
amateur
Available as: 
Complete Plans
Cost: 
52€
Contact Information: 

B.C.A. Demco kit
via Ricciarelli 21 - 20148 MILANO - ITALY
Tel / Fax: +39 02.4870.8331
E-Mail: bcademco@gmail.com

Looks like some other fun looking builds in that link like the Techne, and maybe the Blitz 420 and 460.

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In the News section of the bacademco website there is info about the Micro Cuppers/Micro class. I thought they had all but died out. There are a few examples around me of the less extreme versions. Always looked a lot of fun

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For a simple single hand boat focus on the OK Dinghy. The class is growing with a strong rebirth. 

Of course there is my favorite, the i550 at i550sailboat.com

1276510_10151813869657789_3368903_o.jpg

13010726_1023900601033467_7894027372692239375_n.jpg

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2 hours ago, kprice said:

Depending on your ambition, the Farr 3.7 site offers CAD files for laser cutting.   Not stitch and glue,  but it assembles over frames that stay in the boat as structure.

Rig (carbon)  and sail would need to come from NZ or GB.

https://www.3-7class.org.nz/

 

Build blog

https://www.peterkovesi.com/home/farr37/

 

That looks like a great choice...love that they have the CNC files available so while you're out sourcing epoxy and other materials your boat is being cut for you.

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How about a Machete?
11850649_1611219062460471_459349440480176663_o.jpg.80cf084c9ec681b0e13d4256dc86a9fa.jpg
I don't have any kits left in stock but you can buy the plans.

DRC

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4 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

How about a Machete?
11850649_1611219062460471_459349440480176663_o.jpg.80cf084c9ec681b0e13d4256dc86a9fa.jpg
I don't have any kits left in stock but you can buy the plans.

DRC

This was my next recommendation...to reach out to your dad for plans.

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I like the idea of repurposing the Laser rig on a KIS 4.2, and I would have liked the hull to sort out some of the ergonomic problems the laser has, seems too close to a Laser build it.

I mostly use a sailboard and have two really nice 7.5msq Raceboard sails on carbon masts, they set beautifully, adjustable downhaul easy to wind on and watch the sail shape and leach tension change. Great pieces of kit from the early 2000s and virtually given to me. I'd love to use one of the rigs on a dinghy. Never worked out how to do it effecively. Is it possible? Any ideas?

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33 minutes ago, Dart96 said:

I like the idea of repurposing the Laser rig on a KIS 4.2, and I would have liked the hull to sort out some of the ergonomic problems the laser has, seems too close to a Laser build it.

I mostly use a sailboard and have two really nice 7.5msq Raceboard sails on carbon masts, they set beautifully, adjustable downhaul easy to wind on and watch the sail shape and leach tension change. Great pieces of kit from the early 2000s and virtually given to me. I'd love to use one of the rigs on a dinghy. Never worked out how to do it effecively. Is it possible? Any ideas?

Look at the UFO (yes the foiler) somewhere there is a video of Dave Clark (post 16) explaining how they stiffen a windsurf mast using his/Herreshoff wishbone rig. 

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1 hour ago, Dart96 said:

. I'd love to use one of the rigs on a dinghy. Never worked out how to do it effecively. 

I don't believe anyone else has either.

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If you're small enough to sail it the Farr is probably the best option.

 

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4 hours ago, JimC said:

If you're small enough to sail it the Farr is probably the best option.

 

Take the plans and scale up by 20% when you print?

DRC

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13 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

Take the plans and scale up by 20% when you print?

DRC

Cherub designs - and the 3.7 is very close to a Farr Cherub - don't seem to scale well - not even to 14 feet. 

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Thanks Tink, checked out the UFO and that would definitely be the way to go. I'm thinking of installing it on my ancient Laser. Tripod of tubes terminating with a ball joint that will locate on the underside of the windsurfing boom. Front tube will screw to the laser's bow eye screw holes, I'll drill some small holes in the gunwale to bolt the side tubes to. Several scrapped Topper booms at the club. Easy to make a spreader arrangment like on the UFO using 4mm dyneema and aluminium tube. (I've a good source of 15mm dia mop handles) 

Only downside is that I'll have to carefully cut a small hole in the luff tube of sail to attach the dyneema to the mast. UJ will go in the usual place the mast does or maybe I'll just drill through the deck behind the mast pot and bolt one on. I've got a hatch there aleady. With a bit of planning I'll probably be able to do it in a long afternoon........summer days.

Mainsheet? Well, I'll experiment, make it up as I go along.

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How big?  I have been mulling over the i550 for a couple of years, plans are cheap the and boat is a skiff, in essence.  

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More extensive build blog for the 3.7

https://davesfarr37project.weebly.com/daves-farr37-build-blog/archives/03-2012

 

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13 hours ago, JimC said:

Cherub designs - and the 3.7 is very close to a Farr Cherub - don't seem to scale well - not even to 14 feet. 

If course a 14 ft Cherub is called a Javelin (in Australia and NZ). I'm sure you can find plans; and of course an offshoot of the Javelin is an NS14. But I don't think any come is stitch and glue kits even if most were built by home builders up to 20 (maybe 30) years ago.

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11 hours ago, Dart96 said:

Thanks Tink, checked out the UFO and that would definitely be the way to go. I'm thinking of installing it on my ancient Laser. Tripod of tubes terminating with a ball joint that will locate on the underside of the windsurfing boom. Front tube will screw to the laser's bow eye screw holes, I'll drill some small holes in the gunwale to bolt the side tubes to. Several scrapped Topper booms at the club. Easy to make a spreader arrangment like on the UFO using 4mm dyneema and aluminium tube. (I've a good source of 15mm dia mop handles) 

Only downside is that I'll have to carefully cut a small hole in the luff tube of sail to attach the dyneema to the mast. UJ will go in the usual place the mast does or maybe I'll just drill through the deck behind the mast pot and bolt one on. I've got a hatch there aleady. With a bit of planning I'll probably be able to do it in a long afternoon........summer days.

Mainsheet? Well, I'll experiment, make it up as I go along.

If you have a old Laser bottom section you can mount the windsurfer mast on that, see picture. Don’t think you would need any stays.

Stays would require a fair bit of reinforcing of the hull as it isn’t designed to to take the compression, if you keep all the forces in your tripod including a bass should be good 

61A36C4C-429C-4BBF-9EBF-E306B53A7DFD.jpeg

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4 hours ago, Coquina012 said:

How big?  I have been mulling over the i550 for a couple of years, plans are cheap the and boat is a skiff, in essence.  

There is a builders site for the i550 at    i550class.org    There are posts about every aspect of the boat and how to do things. The guys and gals are tremendously skilled and talented

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Thanks Tink, that will work fine. Plenty of old and broken lower sections lying around. The UFO type diamonds will work as well. Saved a couple of hours.

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1 hour ago, Dart96 said:

Thanks Tink, that will work fine. Plenty of old and broken lower sections lying around. The UFO type diamonds will work as well. Saved a couple of hours.

Enjoy, post some photos when you’re sorted

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So I did this with a measure of success a few years ago.  Having very briefly played with a Phantom (the UK big bloke single hander) many, many years ago when we still had them in this country, I've always longed for a responsive but well-mannered single hander that would fit my not-inconsiderable size.  I decided to build myself one for club handicap racing purposes.  I was able to get a scan of the original build templates, which I redrew in CAD, and had my own one-off kit cut.  The boat went together without any hassles, which reflects how simple and easy the stitch & glue method makes it. It took me a good long time, but that's really just down to my own time management and schedule.  You have to clearly understand that stitch & glue is a fast and easy way to build, but not the method to build the best wooden boat.  Having said that, I love my Phantom.  It is tough, light, responsive and quick for a hiking single hander.  It is easily faster than a Laser, and about equal to a big-rig Melges 14.  There are no modern epoxy Phantoms here to compare it to.  I would expect them to be stiffer and a little faster, of course.  Others seem to like the look of the boat as well. 

Remember that sailing as a sport thrived when we had these imperfect plywood boats.  Technology has marched on, and we have much better boats  today.  But they are no more fun to sail than the old ones, and the sport is now suffering.  It's not so much the quality of the toys that determines the enjoyment you get from the game.

 

 

 

PhantomSmall.jpg

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I think that there is a special level of respect given to those who build their boat themselves. I built 3 OK Dinghy's after returning to yank land, after I bought a Laser (sail #1700 something?). I had a chance to sail an OK  in NZ while spending time there in 1978. And between the two boats thought the Laser cheap, and too restrictive as far as improving obvious failings in sail, mast and controls and human accommodation. 

I admit that I am a throwback to days when many more folks could build things. In my shop I've the modern and old fashioned tools and find that it is faster, quieter, smells better and less dusty to grab a sharp hand plane and simply shape something. 

The OK Dinghy is having a comeback check it out. 

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Mirror dinghy!  Best fun I've ever had was at their nationals in Newquay Cornwall some decades ago. 140 boats, a veritable swarm.

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Thanks for this thread. Best laugh I have had since the whole C19 thing kicked off. Maybe my calibration is different from most, but I have really enjoyed reading what some of you think of as being "high performance". :D 

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1 hour ago, SimonN said:

Thanks for this thread. Best laugh I have had since the whole C19 thing kicked off. Maybe my calibration is different from most, but I have really enjoyed reading what some of you think of as being "high performance". :D 

That is a rather snide comment. The OP asked about Stitch and Glue designs. Did you buy or build? If you bought, Piss off.       (hey that rhymes)

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Well actually Timber, the thread heading IS "High Performance" Stitch and glue kits... ^_^

and yes, I did design, build and sail my own tortured ply IC...

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More like this Jethrow and Simon, 45 years ago I did sell paper plans but well before anything digital.

 

img005.jpg

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5 hours ago, SimonN said:

Thanks for this thread. Best laugh I have had since the whole C19 thing kicked off. Maybe my calibration is different from most, but I have really enjoyed reading what some of you think of as being "high performance". :D 

 

   I think your calibration is arguably wrong. 

 I would say that the common use of the term is just about anything with a spinnaker & trapeze (or equivalent): so a 420 is a high performance dinghy; even if it's no faster than a Wayfarer, which clearly isn't.

 Obviously, that's subjective: I'm sure there are any number of different ways to interpret and use the description but typically, it's not all about speed. If it were then the Moth would be  the definitive example...  and Kite+trap probably isn't what the OP was asking after.. hence the quotes in the title.

 Maybe we need a more useful term?  How would you distinguish between the above and the types of dinghies that deserve the moniker?  I'm guessing you have genuinely fast dinghies in mind but there are distinct groups... is it helpful to bundle canoes, foilers and skiffs together? What connects them beyond speed and the required agility to sail them effectively?

 It's a bit like "sports cars"... whenever you come up with a definition, someone will come up with an exception that makes it incomplete... 

Cheers,

               W.

  

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OP suggested Paper Jet so I suppose that's the sort of thing he is interested in. If you calculate kg/upwind sail (msq) for the Paper Jet it works out at about 3.3, for a 420 it's about 7.8 and for a 49er it's about 4.7 (numbers taken of Wikipedia). So maybe any thing under 5 is "High performance"  There are losds of other metrics as well, I'm trying to work out what the OP wants

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30 minutes ago, Dart96 said:

OP suggested Paper Jet so I suppose that's the sort of thing he is interested in. If you calculate kg/upwind sail (msq) for the Paper Jet it works out at about 3.3, for a 420 it's about 7.8 and for a 49er it's about 4.7 (numbers taken of Wikipedia). So maybe any thing under 5 is "High performance"  There are losds of other metrics as well, I'm trying to work out what the OP wants

Does that include ideal crew weight, obviously a big % of all up weight and one or two crew will effect the matrix. Getting an accurate all up weight can be a challenge for some boats 

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No, just the simplest metric. Judging from the discussions about handicapping on Y+Y forum there is no way of making anything more complex say anything worthwhile.

All models are wrong, some are useful and in the case of planing sailing boats the more complex the model the less useful

 

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2 hours ago, Dart96 said:

No, just the simplest metric. Judging from the discussions about handicapping on Y+Y forum there is no way of making anything more complex say anything worthwhile.

All models are wrong, some are useful and in the case of planing sailing boats the more complex the model the less useful

 

Very true, I do like that Y&Y formula though. I figured by boat was overweight and recalculated the PY based on that weight and didn’t feel so bad about my results. 
 

Like many OPs it is very hard to understand what they are after and then they never return to comment. The cynic in me would say some one from SA posted it to get more traffic for their advertising hits.  No harm done, interesting discussions are had regardless of any actual progress.

 

 

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Just realised what I need.

UV activated adhesives have been around for a while now, this one is a double sided tape https://www.uv-lux.de/en#advantages

However if one could be made that was as easy to use as Duct tape/cloth tape and would bond to thin ply, then rather than a messy, wasteful and smelly mixing of epoxy you could literally tape the hull together and go around with a UV light source setting it all up. Do it carefully and It would look fine. Then we could put CNC wooden hull kits together faster.

Users would be familiar with basic techniques as we've all used tape.

There are loads of old dinghies lying around, just up the road is an Osprey that someone has left to rot. Hull is gone but all the bits are there. £120......Imagine a new type of hull that would reuse an Osprey rig, fittings and foils if it could be done quickly and inexpensively. Not for most people I know, but fun to try.

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I would kill to have a wooden osprey.  I have tried to get plans for one for years and none are available.  I don't see how anyone would call an i550 anything less than a high performance boat.  But perhaps I am biased by my having built ten displacement hulls, which max out at about 6 knots, or less.  

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And Dart 96, I find it really interesting to switch rigs around.  Note the photo on my name--a Herreshoff (sacred cow) with a lug rig, which I also rig as a lug and mizzen.  It was originally  a gaff cat-ketch, as designed, and I just couldn't get an organized set up at the dock for trailer launching.  Drove me nuts.  This is much faster, and really good for those days when i sail alone.  But I do not mean to divert the thread.  Interesting read.  

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Just out of interest this is the Herreshoff rig that Dave Clark credits as inspiration for the UFO

Ospreys are truly beautiful, very big dinghy but nice

07F5A231-7EA3-41A4-8476-3E8F34DA3208.jpeg

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On 3/30/2020 at 4:54 PM, Tink said:

Very true, I do like that Y&Y formula though. I figured by boat was overweight and recalculated the PY based on that weight and didn’t feel so bad about my results. 

I made that formula! :)

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4 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I made that formula! :)

Your are a hero

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On 3/30/2020 at 2:41 PM, timber said:

That is a rather snide comment. The OP asked about Stitch and Glue designs. Did you buy or build? If you bought, Piss off.       (hey that rhymes)

Built enough boats, including stitch and glue, to have a view. I think my first stitch and glue was a Moth (international) in 1975 (that was high performance). The OP said high performance, yet only a few of the suggestions can be called high performance. I think it is very reasonable to laugh at somebody posting the suggestion of a Mirror in a thread about "high performance boats". The OP mentioned the Paper Jet which, with the right rig, is clearly high performance, so how do some of the other boats mentioned get in there?

 

On 3/30/2020 at 7:07 PM, WGWarburton said:

 I would say that the common use of the term is just about anything with a spinnaker & trapeze (or equivalent)

I have never heard that definition and think it stinks, not least because of what you follow it with

On 3/30/2020 at 7:07 PM, WGWarburton said:

so a 420 is a high performance dinghy; even if it's no faster than a Wayfarer, which clearly isn't.

:lol: Seriously, the key word is "high". Great boat that it is, to call a 420 high performance is simply crazy. Even the class association recognises that and simply calls it a performance boat. That fits well, and fits with your definition of kite and trapeze. But it is not high performance.

This debate is all about 'calibration" of the term "high performance" and based on a lot of the above, I think a lot of people are a long way off. I believe the goalposts for that term move over time - what used to be considered high performance no long is, measured against current standards. 30 years ago 470's were considered high performance, but I think that is wrong compared with what is out there today.

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4 hours ago, SimonN said:

I have never heard that definition and think it stinks, not least because of what you follow it with

:lol: Seriously, the key word is "high". Great boat that it is, to call a 420 high performance is simply crazy. Even the class association recognises that and simply calls it a performance boat. That fits well, and fits with your definition of kite and trapeze. But it is not high performance.

This debate is all about 'calibration" of the term "high performance" and based on a lot of the above, I think a lot of people are a long way off. I believe the goalposts for that term move over time - what used to be considered high performance no long is, measured against current standards. 30 years ago 470's were considered high performance, but I think that is wrong compared with what is out there today.

OK, gotcha. I was focussing in the "performance" bit, not the "high"...  I think the problem is that the "high" has been dropped from the "official" terminology but is still in common usage (at least in the less-than-rarified circles I move in). 

 You are definitely correct that the "right" term is performance dinghy, not high performance. I completely agree that I used the term incorrectly, and am guilty as charged....unfortunately, I don't think the term "high performance dinghy" is in widespread usage with the meaning you correctly attribute to it...hence the confusion on this thread, where the lazy, incorrect and common use of the term to refer to anything vaguely sporty (eg kite & traps...) has continued.

 My question remains, though- is it useful to group skiffs, foilers & canoes together with a single moniker,  especially one that excludes foiling cats+tris, and if so... shouldn't there be a better term than one that is already overloaded and commonly  misused?

Cheers,

               W.

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On 3/31/2020 at 7:27 PM, Coquina012 said:

I would kill to have a wooden osprey.  I have tried to get plans for one for years and none are available.  I don't see how anyone would call an i550 anything less than a high performance boat.  But perhaps I am biased by my having built ten displacement hulls, which max out at about 6 knots, or less.  

Andy Barker in the UK would probably be able to help you out, he built quite a few. The Osprey is an interesting boat as there are timber , polyester and new epoxy boats all going around the course at the same speed. The boats also seem to have a ridiculously long competitive life. The class has a Facebook page, Sail Osprey, I am sure if you get hold of them someone will be of assistance.

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15 minutes ago, Major Tom said:

Andy Barker in the UK would probably be able to help you out, he built quite a few. The Osprey is an interesting boat as there are timber , polyester and new epoxy boats all going around the course at the same speed. The boats also seem to have a ridiculously long competitive life. The class has a Facebook page, Sail Osprey, I am sure if you get hold of them someone will be of assistance.

Love Ospreys. A couple of the sailing schools I worked at had them, as they were one of the few performance dinghies that had space for an experienced crew to help introduce improvers to the delights of kites+ trapezes...

 We had a girl waterskiing behind one once, late 70s/early 80s. Was a bit of a challenge to get her started but made for some cool photos!

Cheers,

               W.

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17 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Love Ospreys. A couple of the sailing schools I worked at had them, as they were one of the few performance dinghies that had space for an experienced crew to help introduce improvers to the delights of kites+ trapezes...

 We had a girl waterskiing behind one once, late 70s/early 80s. Was a bit of a challenge to get her started but made for some cool photos!

Cheers,

               W.

Photos of an old lady waterskiing? 

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I wrote several different people including some from the Osprey FB page.  Everyone gets hung up on that whole designer/rights thing.  Which I get--the viewpoint that an unauthorized build is theft does make sense to me.  But to compare to the example of Wayfarers, the heirs/estate do not seem to have a rational reason for refusing to sell plans.  The designer wanted to keep control of the builds, for his own reasons, and IIRC, it was primarily because he wanted the design to maintain a certain level of professionalism and polish.  I have read that Proctor did not want a bunch of junk orphan boats (like the ones I build) with various oddball changes mixing up the fleet.  But what would the estate care about that for?  That doesn't seem rational to me.  I have a CL16 licensed Wayfarer and although I enjoy the boat, I would prefer to build one in marine ply anyday of the week. Straying from plans is part of the fun.   I am definitely guilty of that:  the Coquina avatar in my photo is a replica of Herreshoff's personal boat, and I offended the gods by altering the sails of the sacred cow from catketch gaff to lug with sprit mizzen.  But if I built an Osprey I would change it enough to both void any possibility of being in the class and I would call it something else.  So, all of you millions of Osprey plans holders, send me  PM.  Of course I say that as a joke, there are probably few if any plans out there anywhere beyond Hartley possession.  

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2 hours ago, Coquina012 said:

 But what would the estate care about that for?  

They honour their father's wishes? Seems rational enough to me.

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4 hours ago, Coquina012 said:

I wrote several different people including some from the Osprey FB page.  Everyone gets hung up on that whole designer/rights thing.  Which I get--the viewpoint that an unauthorized build is theft does make sense to me.  But to compare to the example of Wayfarers, the heirs/estate do not seem to have a rational reason for refusing to sell plans.  The designer wanted to keep control of the builds, for his own reasons, and IIRC, it was primarily because he wanted the design to maintain a certain level of professionalism and polish.  I have read that Proctor did not want a bunch of junk orphan boats (like the ones I build) with various oddball changes mixing up the fleet.  But what would the estate care about that for?  That doesn't seem rational to me.  I have a CL16 licensed Wayfarer and although I enjoy the boat, I would prefer to build one in marine ply anyday of the week. Straying from plans is part of the fun.   I am definitely guilty of that:  the Coquina avatar in my photo is a replica of Herreshoff's personal boat, and I offended the gods by altering the sails of the sacred cow from catketch gaff to lug with sprit mizzen.  But if I built an Osprey I would change it enough to both void any possibility of being in the class and I would call it something else.  So, all of you millions of Osprey plans holders, send me  PM.  Of course I say that as a joke, there are probably few if any plans out there anywhere beyond Hartley possession.  

Hartleys have the sole rights to the design, that is an agreement between the Class Association, Harleys and the estate, letting someone just build their own version undermines that. Clearly there is a value in the design intellect and it is vary disingenuous to think just because you want one that they should let you corrupt their product. If you have the skill to design a similar product do so, if you don’t buy a new or second hand one. Your Herreshoff Coquina is not a worthy comparison, the lines are freely available, there is no class association or builder with sole rights. Most dinghy builders and designers are working below minimum wage for the love of their craft

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Keith Callaghan has a rich portfolio 

https://www.bluelightning.co.uk

not stitch and glue, the design is more important than the build method IMHO

 

 

 

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Was the Osprey ever scratch built at home or was it always from a kit?

 

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Dart: NEver built from scratch that I know of.  Which is why I think my kidding around about this was lost on Tink.  Hey  TInk, the false indignation is completely unnecessary.  I definitely have the skill to corrupt their product.  Note how I point out I respect their ownership rights.  They were never scratch built.  There are no plans available.  And they want to keep control.  Makes sense.  I sure would like one!    But if anyone does send me any plans, which again, I think do not exist, and which I wrote as something that seemed quite funny to me,  I will first send you a PM and ask you for permission to build from them.  So stand by.  

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This raises an interesting question. As I said earlier there is complete Osprey not far from me that is as far as I'm concerned past economic repair. If I had the space I could get it for about £120.

So I would then be an owner of an Osprey, I could measure it up and produce an accurate copy, there is enough measurement detail on the 2019 Certification docs to make it class compliant. Would this be acceptable to the class association or would they refuse to register the boat?

I did an Espacenet check and though Proctor has Patents none are comming up reagrding the Osprey and it is not a registered design with the UK IP office so unlikely to be a civil law issue.

So I assume that to keep control the class would refuse to register the boat effectively making it worthless as Hartleys are the Sole builder mentioned on the website.

It's a bit disapointing as it's one of the boats I always thought would be really rewarding to build.

 

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2 hours ago, Dart96 said:

This raises an interesting question. As I said earlier there is complete Osprey not far from me that is as far as I'm concerned past economic repair. If I had the space I could get it for about £120.

So I would then be an owner of an Osprey, I could measure it up and produce an accurate copy, there is enough measurement detail on the 2019 Certification docs to make it class compliant. Would this be acceptable to the class association or would they refuse to register the boat?

I did an Espacenet check and though Proctor has Patents none are comming up reagrding the Osprey and it is not a registered design with the UK IP office so unlikely to be a civil law issue.

So I assume that to keep control the class would refuse to register the boat effectively making it worthless as Hartleys are the Sole builder mentioned on the website.

It's a bit disapointing as it's one of the boats I always thought would be really rewarding to build.

 

Spent far too much of my day pondering patents, not boat related, to say your assumptions are broadly right. The shape of a Osprey would be covered as a registered design. Registered designs are cheap and simple to apply for but have a maximum of 10 years validity so not currently relevant in the case of the Osprey. There is nothing legal wrong with you buying the Osprey and taking whatever measurements Coquina12 needs to reproduce a facsimile Osprey. Obviously the boat would never be an actual Osprey but he could have many years of enjoyment, depending on how flexible his club is he could race it under the Osprey handicap. 

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Just as an irrelevant random observation, few classes place any limit on the amount of structure that may be replaced in the case of major repairs and restoration. 

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

Just as an irrelevant random observation, few classes place any limit on the amount of structure that may be replaced in the case of major repairs and restoration. 

I remember rebuilding a few mirrors, in one instance the only original piece was the transom!

It was remeasured and raced for about 20 years after that.

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The Venerable OK Dinghy redone into kit by Dan Leech in NZ

4-1505954835-6.thumb.jpg.1ee543b422512332b8063efb28955f17.jpg

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A timber Osprey 

049D4E1C-B81D-48B8-AA28-2E3A898F39F7.jpeg

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The world's absolutely-most-definitely-without-a-doubt high performance one-design happens to be stitch-and-glue

http://www.capecodfrosty.org/

(seriously though, if you live anywhere near New Hampshire, build one of these things and frostbite with Fleet 9 in Portsmouth, it will be the most fun sailing you've had for a few hundred bucks)

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Proctor used a similar hull shape and construction to the Osprey in his Seagull and Seamew cruisers. Both had a good reputation for speed. Both were available as Kits from Bell Woodworking Leicester UK. In the 70's I saw one of their catalogues and I'm starting to think they may have sold Osprey kits as well.

Proctor Seagull.jpg

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6 hours ago, Sisu3360 said:

The world's absolutely-most-definitely-without-a-doubt high performance one-design happens to be stitch-and-glue

http://www.capecodfrosty.org/

(seriously though, if you live anywhere near New Hampshire, build one of these things and frostbite with Fleet 9 in Portsmouth, it will be the most fun sailing you've had for a few hundred bucks)

The Frosty is a hoot. Weight and stiffness still make a difference in speed IMHO, but it's probably the most tactical racing there is.

FB- Doug

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4 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

The Frosty is a hoot. Weight and stiffness still make a difference in speed IMHO, but it's probably the most tactical racing there is.

FB- Doug

I would beg to differ, the Foxer dinghy, which Is really a sailable tender, has extremely good sailing in places on the South Coast in the UK, the class attracts world champions as well as sailors from every imaginable boat, from foiling moths to Grand Prix racers.

Definitely not high performance and definitely not home built though.

68CFCF24-6A57-475F-96EE-A84BB0ED4853.jpeg

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29 minutes ago, Major Tom said:

I would beg to differ, the Foxer dinghy, which Is really a sailable tender, has extremely good sailing in places on the South Coast in the UK, the class attracts world champions as well as sailors from every imaginable boat, from foiling moths to Grand Prix racers.

Definitely not high performance and definitely not home built though.

68CFCF24-6A57-475F-96EE-A84BB0ED4853.jpeg

Looks very much like the Interclub and the Tech dinghies here. The Tech is often raced with two people, the crew's task is to hold the daggerboard up going downwind, help roll the boat in tacks, and yell at opponents. They are also very tactical boats.

I hope this fleet is not an example of what you consider championship-level racing. Unless it's the finish, perhaps, in which case it's a bit startling that some of them have kept up with the guys who point high and hold their boats level. If this is a start, then all but two of them are late. From here, the race is between # 19 and #56, with an edge (it looks to my eye) going to #56 on this first little bit. #34 isn't totally screwed if he can get his boat level and up to point, but the rest of them are going to have to fight for clear air before worrying about placing.

Although who knows, blazing downwind speed makes up for a lot of faults, that's how I raced for decades. I still struggle with getting my goddam boat to point, no matter what I'm sailing.

I'm really most curious about the RC boat. It looks like a cupola from a whirligig ride, mounted on (or perhaps behind) some kind of very low-sided floating platform.

FB- Doug

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On 4/14/2020 at 11:56 AM, Major Tom said:

Definitely not high performance and definitely not home built though.

GTFO ;-)

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