WGWarburton

Installing Facnor furler

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Hi,

       I've acquired a used Facnor for my  old 32' cruiser-racer. It's an RX220 model, I believe, and I'm trying to work out what parts I need to install it. The furler unit itself is complete but I don't have the pins & toggles to attach it to the boat.

 The drum has the short link-plates needed to accommodate my existing turnbuckle. Looking at the installation manual, I need a double-jaw rigging toggle which sits between these plates, and then a bolt passes through the toggle and the bottom eye of the turnbuckle. The rigging toggle is secured to the foredeck fitting and all is good...

 I can't get to the boat atm to measure anything, due to travel restrictions, but from photos & memory the forestay is 10mm wire and the existing rigging screw and foredeck pins are 10mm. The Facnor, however, is sized for a 16mm bolt... So if I buy a 16mm double-jaw toggle and run a 16mm bolt, it won't fit the existing rigging screw, nor will the toggle's lower pin fit through the foredeck fitting.   I may not have the dimensions for the existing pins correct- would a 10mm wire forestay "normally" attach through 10mm toggles and pins?

 If I do have this 16mm/10mm mismatch: is there an off-the-shelf solution to this? Facnor don't seem to sell a specific fitting, suggesting it should be standard parts, rather than proprietary. Do I need a thread-eye for the turnbuckle with an oversized (16mm) hole? Bushings to allow 10mm pins to fit snugly? A double-jaw toggle with ends for different sized pins? Maybe a chain of fittings to adapt the sizes (seems a bad idea, as it would introduce slop, raise the drum and probably mean I'd need the forestay shortened...).

Diagrams of the installation are here: http://www.facnor.com/uk/products/headsail_furlers/furl__reefing_system/fichiers/lslx_facnor_201.pdf 

 There's a photo of what I'm trying to achieve at the very end of that doc, RHS of page 11, with a diagram of the setup immediately to the left. 

Thanks for input. I would have gone and measured it all, if I could...

Cheers,

                W.

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Go upffront.com and mail to Phil. He is very good.  

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There is no way your headstay wire  is 10mm and it goes to a 10mm pin. I’d bet donuts to dollars on that one. 
 

also it’s not the short link plates that accommodate a turnbuckle it’s the extended drum ‘nose’ or torque tube that does that. If you just have short link plates the wire needs to have just an eye at the bottom. 
 

can you get someone nearby to measure the rig?

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8 hours ago, mgs said:

There is no way your headstay wire  is 10mm and it goes to a 10mm pin. I’d bet donuts to dollars on that one. 
 

also it’s not the short link plates that accommodate a turnbuckle it’s the extended drum ‘nose’ or torque tube that does that. If you just have short link plates the wire needs to have just an eye at the bottom. 
 

can you get someone nearby to measure the rig?

That sounds encouraging. Hopefully I'm making up a problem that doesn't really exist.

I do have the extended torque tube on the furler.

 The boatyard isn't the easiest to deal with but that's sound thinking... I'll maybe give them a call and see if they can help.

Thanks,

                 W.

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Follow-up... boatyard guy was kind enough to do some measuring for me... I was way off. 

Wire 6mm

Pin 10.8

Toggle 320mm overall

Hole size 12.8 mm

Track hole size 6.88mm

Width of track 25.2mm

.... so it looks like I do have a mismatch. Looking online, it seems the Facnor was available with a 12mm pin, which would fit the existing turnbuckle eye, if I can replace the 16mm ID bushes, or sleeve down the ones I have. 

 That leaves the problem of attaching a 12mm rigging toggle to a track with 6.88mm holes... 

 Any suggestions welcome!

Cheers,

                W.

PS.  Cpt757, thanks for the pointer to upffront...    will contact them if there are parts I can't get.

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What is this track?

if your headstay attaches to it you’ve already got a pin size problem that was solved once, no?

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Wow, sounds like you are a bit stuck.

Stays, pins etc on yachts are sized so the wire is the weak point,

The usual setup is as follows, change out metric for imperial where needed..

M5 and M6 wire - 3/8" pins

M6 thru to M8 - 1/2" Pins

M8 thru to M12 - 5/8" pins

So if I'm understanding you right, you have a 1/4" pin hole on your chainplate and a pin on the bottom of your forestay of 1/2" (of 12mm) but 6mm wire?  WHat about the masthead pin sizes?

Are you putting a furler off a 40 footer on a 20 footer??

Even if you can get someone to make a 1/4" to M12 adaptor plate/toggle, the weight/sizing/wire tension os going to put some god awful tension on your chainplates, mashtead and mast!!

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, mgs said:

What is this track?

if your headstay attaches to it you’ve already got a pin size problem that was solved once, no?

Hi,

       Yes, that's true- the headstay is currently attached to the plate (pictured, I hope)... Good point! 

  I'm now thinking (particularly with mezaire's useful contribution on sizing) that what's currently in place is a plate with 10mm holes (rather than the reported 6.88mm.. I wonder what he measured...?) which has a 10mm rigging toggle attached and a 12mm turnbuckle eye passing through it's top. I wonder if the forestay is actually 8mm, rather than 6mm, too... that fits my (rather vague) recollection better and would align with 12mm pins?

 If that's the case then a 12mm bolt on the furler might work with a 12mm double-jaw toggle and (undersized) 10mm pin to attach?

 In the attached picture, I think that the shackle at the bottom for the preventer has an 8mm bar, which looks like it's suitably loose in a 10mm hole.

mezaire-  Facnor list the RX220 for boats from 32' to 42'... it came from a Sigma 38 after the owner concluded it was OK but hard work for that (think they have a 7/8 rig). My boat is 32' but I think the mast+rigging are relatively light for the size. So not quite 40 to 20 but definitely at the lower end of suitability!   I'm hoping that being close to over-sized should make it reliable... assuming it can be fitted OK...

 Thanks very much for your continued input, it's really helpful.

Cheers,

              W. 

 

20191026_160231.jpg

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The usual problems when thinking "oversizing" wire will make the mast stronger. The original design of the mast will have considered ALL the individual parts in the rigging plan, ensuring that all parts were matched to the design loading. Now you are arbitrarily increasing the size/strength of ONE component, hoping that magically all the other parts somehow also get stronger. Unless there is a record of WIRE failure for your boat, up-sizing rigging will only increase weight aloft. In a very round about way, this does reduce the loading on the mast, not because anything is stronger, but because the boat tips over quicker, thus reducing the loading from the sails. 

   But since you already have committed to this path: rigging pin sizes (at least in English pin sizes) were established for pins made out of silicon bronze. SS has a higher yield strength. So you MIGHT have enuff strength to use the  smaller pin. What is the hole/pin sizes for the upper end of the headstay? Most wire sizes can have a small range of terminal sizes attached to them - if your wire has a 'large' fitting attached to it you may have enuff strength.

Facnor's "size" range on their furler relates to their product only, not to the headstay wire installed through it by the end user - they have left the spec of that to the spar/rigging designer. So the furler will be 'large' for your boat, and should be reliable, assuming ALL the installation details are correct. I many years as a rigger, I have very rarely seen any problems due entirely to the furler unit components. Most were age or incorrect install/usage damages.

So, after the rant -

Carefully look at all the headstay pieces, accurately measure what you've got, and research strengths. There  are safe ways to drill out pin holes to a larger size, IF the piece has enuff extra metal to allow this. Carefully look at all fittings that h/s attaches to - are they strong enuff? For instance, the stemhead (name for that plate that h/s attaches to) - how is that attached to the hull? Does that plate continue down inside the hull with some bolts going through the bow? or is it welded to the deck plate which is bolted through the deck? In either case, measure & count those bolts, & research their strengths. There are stress cracks off the aft corners of that deck plate, investigate that. SS bolts can suffer various types of corrosion, if you see ANY rust stains from a bolt, pull one out & check it. I have re-bolted many chainplates because the fixing bolts were eaten away by corrosion inside the attachment area. Are the bolts still straight? The bolt holding your tack hook is bent on the hook side, it's on it's way to failure, ss has low shear strength. Your turnbuckle is completely screwed down, are you happy with the h/s length right now? Make the new wire length about 2" shorter to regain some adjustment ability.

 

Not saying this change is bad, just that you have to look at these issues properly, if you want to do anything other than spend time & money for no net gain.

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Hi,

11 hours ago, longy said:

The usual problems when thinking "oversizing" wire will make the mast stronger. The original design of the mast will have considered ALL the individual parts in the rigging plan, ensuring that all parts were matched to the design loading. Now you are arbitrarily increasing the size/strength of ONE component, hoping that magically all the other parts somehow also get stronger. Unless there is a record of WIRE failure for your boat, up-sizing rigging will only increase weight aloft. In a very round about way, this does reduce the loading on the mast, not because anything is stronger, but because the boat tips over quicker, thus reducing the loading from the sails. 

 I really appreciate the reply but I think you've misunderstood what I'm trying to do.

Quote

Facnor's "size" range on their furler relates to their product only, not to the headstay wire installed through it by the end user - they have left the spec of that to the spar/rigging designer. So the furler will be 'large' for your boat, and should be reliable, assuming ALL the installation details are correct. I many years as a rigger, I have very rarely seen any problems due entirely to the furler unit components. Most were age or incorrect install/usage damages.

 That's good news, and exactly what I'm trying to do.

Quote

So, after the rant -

Carefully look at all the headstay pieces, accurately measure what you've got, and research strengths. There  are safe ways to drill out pin holes to a larger size, IF the piece has enuff extra metal to allow this. Carefully look at all fittings that h/s attaches to - are they strong enuff? For instance, the stemhead (name for that plate that h/s attaches to) - how is that attached to the hull? Does that plate continue down inside the hull with some bolts going through the bow? or is it welded to the deck plate which is bolted through the deck? In either case, measure & count those bolts, & research their strengths. There are stress cracks off the aft corners of that deck plate, investigate that. SS bolts can suffer various types of corrosion, if you see ANY rust stains from a bolt, pull one out & check it. I have re-bolted many chainplates because the fixing bolts were eaten away by corrosion inside the attachment area. Are the bolts still straight? The bolt holding your tack hook is bent on the hook side, it's on it's way to failure, ss has low shear strength. Your turnbuckle is completely screwed down, are you happy with the h/s length right now? Make the new wire length about 2" shorter to regain some adjustment ability.

 As per my post above, I'm unable to get to the boat at the moment to measure anything. I've asked the boatyard to take some measurements for me, and they've done so, but some of the figures they've come back with don't seem to fit my observations. 

 What I also don't have is any experience installing a furler, or rigging. When I bought the boat three years ago, all the standing rigging was replaced by a professional rigger, well known and respected locally, known to me personally and familiar with the boat. I could ask him for advice (in fact, I already approached him for guidance before buying the furler I am installing) but he supplies furlers and I think it would be unreasonable to ask for his help installing a used one, unless I was going to engage him professionally to do so... I'm prepared to do that, if I need to, but I don't think it should be necessary.

Quote

Not saying this change is bad, just that you have to look at these issues properly, if you want to do anything other than spend time & money for no net gain.

Again, the only change I want to make is to replace the current tuff-luff with a furler. If possible, I want to keep the forestay I have, unchanged. What I'm not clear on, is what parts I need to get to achieve this, and I'm sure there are people on here who can help with that.

 Currently, it looks to me like the stemhead fitting (I would have used that term to refer to the one ahead of it, with the bow-roller and guide for the anchor chain?) has holes around 10mm, not the 6.88mm reported by the yard (I've checked the shackle attaching the preventer block to the fitting and it has an 8mm pin which is loose in it's hole, so the track can't have 6.88mm holes).  If the wire size they report (6mm) is correct, then I gather a standard screw terminal for that would be likely to have a 12mm hole... which looks plausible in the photo above, where the eye appears to me to be a loose fit on the (10mm?) rigging toggle.

 Facnor's brochure says that the RX220 can come with either a 16mm pin or a 12mm pin. I have bushings for the 16mm pin version but hope to be able to replace them with the 12mm ones (if not, then perhaps I can get some bushes to make up the size).  My intention then would be to use a 12mm pin at the bottom of the furler, through a double jaw toggle and the current turnbuckle and then attach that to the stemhead with a 10mm pin.

 I'm currently unclear what size double-jaw toggle I need... the catalogue diagrams show plate separation of 12mm on some versions of the 10mm toggle, and list intermediate sizes with more... it doesn't look as if I need a "half-inch" toggle to allow me to use an M12 "pin" through the furler jaws... an 11mm or the right 10mm one looks as though it would have enough clearance...unless I'm missing something about the way these go together?

 It's even possible I might be able to re-use the one that's there..? The pin that my rigging screw goes through looks to me to be loose on the toggle and loose on the eye... anyone believe that a 12mm bolt would pass through both of those or will I need to get a slightly bigger one?   I'm assuming that I want to minimise the amount of slop in the system for it to work optimally, and to mount it as low as I can.

 It would be handy to have access to a shop with various options in front of me to pick the one I need but that probably wouldn't be an option these days, even if we were able to travel freely!   As you might have gathered, I'm keen to get the parts together in advance, so that I can install this in one or two visits to the boat ahead of a potential late-season launch this year....  

 Thanks very much to all, and any future, contributors for your time and the benefit of your experience. It's much appreciated.

Cheers,

               W.

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If you want to use what you already have for the headstay (if it really is only three years old) you would need a threaded eye on the bottom of the turnbuckle.
 

 You would then need a way to get a 12mm double jaw toggle to fit that eye. I wouldn’t go down a size in toggle here because the furler specs a 16 or 12mm option not 11 or 10mm. I bet they did some engineering on that one. and then a way to get the 12mm toggle back down to 10mm to fit the boat. 
 

You can get a Hi-Mod compression stud for 6mm wire with a 12mm thread. You’d have to get a new turnbuckle body and threaded eye. that would leave getting top hat bushing for the pin at the deck. (If you went this route the headstay would have to get cut, but you’d be opening up a bigger turnbuckle so you might make out alright.) 

also,  is the furler already assembled or is it broken down into pieces? Some furler cannot be assembled over finished wire...
 

Also where are my donuts?

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Thanks mgs:

46 minutes ago, mgs said:

If you want to use what you already have for the headstay (if it really is only three years old) you would need a threaded eye on the bottom of the turnbuckle.

 Yes, it really is only three years old. I haven't had the boat for long and replaced the standing rigging before launching it for the first time (May '17).  Regarding the eye... can you tell from the picture above (post #8) if that's what I have, please? The previous turnbuckle had a T-shaped end-piece on the thread that went straight into a rigging toggle but the current one, pictured above, looks to me like a threaded eye attached to a double jaw toggle...?   I may just be showing my ignorance, though!  :-)

46 minutes ago, mgs said:

 You would then need a way to get a 12mm double jaw toggle to fit that eye. I wouldn’t go down a size in toggle here because the furler specs a 16 or 12mm option not 11 or 10mm. I bet they did some engineering on that one. and then a way to get the 12mm toggle back down to 10mm to fit the boat. 
 

That sounds like good advice, thanks. If my current eye is 12mm but using a 10mm pin, I hope to be able to replicate that with the bigger double-jaw-toggle.. so moving the "undersize" connection from the bottom of the turnbuckle to the bottom of the toggle...

46 minutes ago, mgs said:

You can get a Hi-Mod compression stud for 6mm wire with a 12mm thread. You’d have to get a new turnbuckle body and threaded eye. that would leave getting top hat bushing for the pin at the deck. (If you went this route the headstay would have to get cut, but you’d be opening up a bigger turnbuckle so you might make out alright.) 

also,  is the furler already assembled or is it broken down into pieces? Some furler cannot be assembled over finished wire...

Furler is dismantled... but Facnor make a big feature of the claim that you can install without having to re-rig the boat. If it goes as documented, the halyard holds the mast up while I thread the foil sections up the forestay, fixing them together as I go... Here's hoping.

46 minutes ago, mgs said:

Also where are my donuts?

 Different family, unfortunately, but if you PM me your details, I'll see what I can arrange!!!  Least I can do for sound advice :-)

Cheers,

               W.

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36 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Thanks mgs:

 Yes, it really is only three years old. I haven't had the boat for long and replaced the standing rigging before launching it for the first time (May '17).  Regarding the eye... can you tell from the picture above (post #8) if that's what I have, please? The previous turnbuckle had a T-shaped end-piece on the thread that went straight into a rigging toggle but the current one, pictured above, looks to me like a threaded eye attached to a double jaw toggle...?   I may just be showing my ignorance, though!  :-)

That sounds like good advice, thanks. If my current eye is 12mm but using a 10mm pin, I hope to be able to replicate that with the bigger double-jaw-toggle.. so moving the "undersize" connection from the bottom of the turnbuckle to the bottom of the toggle...

 

The current set up looks like the eye has a pressed in pin to hold the toggle in place. Probably not a 12mm eye. I’ve cut a pressed in pin out once, but I actually had a yard’s machine shop do it  after I got the manufacturer’s blessing.

the thread diameter on the turnbuckle will be tell you. You could ask the rigger who made up the new stuff about the specs and dimensions on the headstay, that shouldn’t be too much of an ask for ‘em. 

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