Editor

ac 2021? fuggedaboudit!

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fuggedaboutit-300x169.jpg

OK, I’ll say it if nobody else will. It’s time to scrap the whole America’s Cup catastrophe and start again. The disruptions of the COVID-19 crisis may be the catalyst, but there have been signs for more than a year now that the pinnacle of our sport took a disastrous wrong turn after Bermuda. This thing is out of control. 

The INEOS team photo published recently showed more than 100 staff posing proudly in their team uniforms. That’s more than 100 paid bodies just to keep one boat racing in a handful of regattas. New Zealand, a small nation, is spending countless millions building a port facility for the defense series. The challenge teams are gobbling up sponsorship money at obscene rates.

Meanwhile, it is beginning to dawn on the general sailing community that the foiling monomarans are incredibly difficult to sail in anything other than a straight line. They’ve been testing for a year now yet how many videos of these 75-footers show them completing a successful tack or gybe? 

You get the uncomfortable feeling that we’re not being told something. 

It may well be that the fundamental design concept of a swing-foil monohull with no keel is flawed – that it may not be possible for these boats to complete a conventional windward/leeward course in a reasonable range of wind strengths and wave heights. When a helmsman with the skills of Ben Ainslie can’t keep a boat on its feet during a simple bear-away gust there must be something wrong.  

Then there’s the ridiculously complex set of class rules – all 304 of them, plus their many sub-sections and 100 definitions. This may keep the armies of designers, builders, sailmakers, engineers and computer analysts all nicely employed for three years, but their work is happening at such an abstruse level that it means nothing to ordinary sailors. The America’s Cup has lost its relevance.

Enough is enough. It’s time for the Defender and Challenger of Record to recognize their mistake. Abandon this whole 2021 craziness and start again within a simpler, cheaper framework. The sailing world will thank you.

- Anarchist David 

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You must be pissed because YOU cannot go sailing.  Deal with it.

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probably should have cancelled a few more cups ... if you take your tinfoil hat off you will see the sun has risen and will rise again tomorrow

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31 minutes ago, Editor said:


OK, I’ll say it if nobody else will. It’s time to scrap the whole America’s Cup catastrophe and start again. 

- Anarchist David 

It is not your decision to make, the choice lies with the money men, no one is holding a gun to their heads.

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Guess who is board and trying to drum up a conversation on his web site?

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He's forgotten that the AC is primarily a design/tech challenge. I would also argue it is a management challenge over and above a sailing boat race. The racing is just the medium by which the money men can show expertise in design/tech and management. How many times has a promising campaign been derailed by poor management?

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36 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

Guess who is board and trying to drum up a conversation on his web site?

douchenozzle - you do see that it was written by someone else, right? and what you said is the same line whenever i run something some of you don't like. zzzz.

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1 minute ago, SCARECROW said:

really when else have i said that?

what you said is the same line whenever i run something some of you don't like...

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

It is not your decision to make, the choice lies with the money men, no one is holding a gun to their heads.

He's allowed an opinion .

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45 minutes ago, Ncik said:

He's forgotten that the AC is primarily a design/tech challenge. I would also argue it is a management challenge over and above a sailing boat race. The racing is just the medium by which the money men can show expertise in design/tech and management. How many times has a promising campaign been derailed by poor management?

Employing the right people, giving them the resources they need and also putting the right limits on them is what it takes.  Lack of management is what lost both the 2005 and 2017 cups.

 

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3 hours ago, Editor said:

the pinnacle of our sport took a disastrous wrong turn after Bermuda

Russell?? Is that you??

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3 hours ago, Editor said:

OK, I’ll say it if nobody else will. It’s time to scrap the whole America’s Cup catastrophe and start again.

Just what we need. Another opinionated 'Merican.

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The sailing world will still benefit, the local exposure will amp up a few more Burlings & Tukes to continue on the NZ dominance!

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3 hours ago, Editor said:

what you said is the same line whenever i run something some of you don't like...

And who the fuck are you?

Go away

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6 hours ago, Editor said:

fuggedaboutit-300x169.jpg

OK, I’ll say it if nobody else will. It’s time to scrap the whole America’s Cup catastrophe and start again. The disruptions of the COVID-19 crisis may be the catalyst, but there have been signs for more than a year now that the pinnacle of our sport took a disastrous wrong turn after Bermuda. This thing is out of control. 

The INEOS team photo published recently showed more than 100 staff posing proudly in their team uniforms. That’s more than 100 paid bodies just to keep one boat racing in a handful of regattas. New Zealand, a small nation, is spending countless millions building a port facility for the defense series. The challenge teams are gobbling up sponsorship money at obscene rates.

Meanwhile, it is beginning to dawn on the general sailing community that the foiling monomarans are incredibly difficult to sail in anything other than a straight line. They’ve been testing for a year now yet how many videos of these 75-footers show them completing a successful tack or gybe? 

You get the uncomfortable feeling that we’re not being told something. 

It may well be that the fundamental design concept of a swing-foil monohull with no keel is flawed – that it may not be possible for these boats to complete a conventional windward/leeward course in a reasonable range of wind strengths and wave heights. When a helmsman with the skills of Ben Ainslie can’t keep a boat on its feet during a simple bear-away gust there must be something wrong.  

Then there’s the ridiculously complex set of class rules – all 304 of them, plus their many sub-sections and 100 definitions. This may keep the armies of designers, builders, sailmakers, engineers and computer analysts all nicely employed for three years, but their work is happening at such an abstruse level that it means nothing to ordinary sailors. The America’s Cup has lost its relevance.

Enough is enough. It’s time for the Defender and Challenger of Record to recognize their mistake. Abandon this whole 2021 craziness and start again within a simpler, cheaper framework. The sailing world will thank you.

- Anarchist David 

To paraphrase - they're hard to sail and there's a pause in in-person contact...

Hardly reasons to quit.

Don't give in so easily - both will be overcome

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Can’t we all get along? NOT!!!!  Douchenozzle I love it

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8 hours ago, Editor said:

fuggedaboutit-300x169.jpg

OK, I’ll say it if nobody else will. It’s time to scrap the whole America’s Cup catastrophe and start again. The disruptions of the COVID-19 crisis may be the catalyst, but there have been signs for more than a year now that the pinnacle of our sport took a disastrous wrong turn after Bermuda. This thing is out of control. 

The INEOS team photo published recently showed more than 100 staff posing proudly in their team uniforms. That’s more than 100 paid bodies just to keep one boat racing in a handful of regattas. New Zealand, a small nation, is spending countless millions building a port facility for the defense series. The challenge teams are gobbling up sponsorship money at obscene rates.

Meanwhile, it is beginning to dawn on the general sailing community that the foiling monomarans are incredibly difficult to sail in anything other than a straight line. They’ve been testing for a year now yet how many videos of these 75-footers show them completing a successful tack or gybe? 

You get the uncomfortable feeling that we’re not being told something. 

It may well be that the fundamental design concept of a swing-foil monohull with no keel is flawed – that it may not be possible for these boats to complete a conventional windward/leeward course in a reasonable range of wind strengths and wave heights. When a helmsman with the skills of Ben Ainslie can’t keep a boat on its feet during a simple bear-away gust there must be something wrong.  

Then there’s the ridiculously complex set of class rules – all 304 of them, plus their many sub-sections and 100 definitions. This may keep the armies of designers, builders, sailmakers, engineers and computer analysts all nicely employed for three years, but their work is happening at such an abstruse level that it means nothing to ordinary sailors. The America’s Cup has lost its relevance.

Enough is enough. It’s time for the Defender and Challenger of Record to recognize their mistake. Abandon this whole 2021 craziness and start again within a simpler, cheaper framework. The sailing world will thank you.

- Anarchist David 

You have too much time on your hands and are over-thinking things. .... Go back to shagging the dog ...  ;-)

The history of SA over the last few AC cycles (starting with Dogzilla) has been to denounce each and every AC series - then when that series is over, people go - Oh that wasnt so bad after all. This will be the same. You are best waiting till this Cup is over first, before making such sweeping, dramatic and without foundation statements/comments.

 

 

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1 minute ago, ttc546 said:

You have too much time on your hands and are over-thinking things. .... Go back to shagging the dog ...  ;-)

The history of SA over the last few AC cycles (starting with Dogzilla) has been to denounce each and every AC series - then when that series is over, people go - Oh thay wasnt so bad after all. This will be the same. You are best waiting till this Cup is over first, before making such sweeping, dramatic and without foundation statements/comments.

 

 

What did the dog do to deserve that?He seems mor like a cat guy 

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I am just looking forward to a good dialup before crossing the start line. Flip flops come to mind.

Sail Safe!

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I would have to agree with the premise.  The AC used to run at a Club/Syndicate level, it needs to get back to that. 

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Fine. I'm going to jump in on this.

 

Foil tack

 

Foil gybe

Countless other videos.. Who even cares. Do your research.

The America's Cup is MEANT to be prohibitively expensive. It is MEANT to be exclusive. It is MEANT to be impractical. It is MEANT to bend the labor of as many experts as possible to the whim of a couple tycoons for the hopeful amusement of everyone else. Look it its history. If you want something fair, economical and practical that dentists can pony up and buy into, race any of the thousands of 40 foot one design keelboats. 

DRC

 

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@Editor has a point.  These things are gonna be boring to watch.  Like watching dragster ripping down the 1/4 mile.  About 3 seconds of sheer terror and hours of boredom.  Ever seen the crowds at a NHRA meet?  No?  Cuz there aint anyone there.  Now, reduce the number of regattas to three events spread out over three years and no more than 3-4 competitors and you begin to realize it simply doesn't matter no mo.  I had planned to book flights during spring break 2021 to fly to NZ with family and watch it.  Not now.  Too little, too far, too much.  Nothing to see here, folks....move along.

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Editor didn't write it.     he just edited it.....badly as it happens!

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The thing that would make all this technology easily accessible is a fully automatic foil control system. The cost of computation and automated control systems is cheaper than a winch handle, given the software. Open source the foil control system, and the entire sailing world benefits.

The cost of these crazy carbon foil systems is not necessary, except to get the absolute last few percentage out of the system.

Aluminum and steel extrusions can and have been used for very many foiling boats over the last century. Carbon is not required, its an extreme optimization, appropriate for the AC but not needed for recreational sailing, even recreational competitive sailing. I mean, we have put up with lead and symmetrical spinnakers, we can put up with steel and aluminum foils.

 

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If as the author says, the Cup is largely irrelevant to sailors (I disagree, btw) then not having the ACWS won't matter. So scrap that and keep on keeping on with the design competition in 2021. With testing, retesting, quarantine the teams can be there, so can the boats. Fortunately the cup is in NZ, which reportedly is slamming the virus not just trying the half measure containment we have in the US. 

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13 hours ago, Editor said:

fuggedaboutit-300x169.jpg

OK, I’ll say it if nobody else will. It’s time to scrap the whole America’s Cup catastrophe and start again. The disruptions of the COVID-19 crisis may be the catalyst, but there have been signs for more than a year now that the pinnacle of our sport took a disastrous wrong turn after Bermuda. This thing is out of control. 

The INEOS team photo published recently showed more than 100 staff posing proudly in their team uniforms. That’s more than 100 paid bodies just to keep one boat racing in a handful of regattas. New Zealand, a small nation, is spending countless millions building a port facility for the defense series. The challenge teams are gobbling up sponsorship money at obscene rates.

Meanwhile, it is beginning to dawn on the general sailing community that the foiling monomarans are incredibly difficult to sail in anything other than a straight line. They’ve been testing for a year now yet how many videos of these 75-footers show them completing a successful tack or gybe? 

You get the uncomfortable feeling that we’re not being told something. 

It may well be that the fundamental design concept of a swing-foil monohull with no keel is flawed – that it may not be possible for these boats to complete a conventional windward/leeward course in a reasonable range of wind strengths and wave heights. When a helmsman with the skills of Ben Ainslie can’t keep a boat on its feet during a simple bear-away gust there must be something wrong.  

Then there’s the ridiculously complex set of class rules – all 304 of them, plus their many sub-sections and 100 definitions. This may keep the armies of designers, builders, sailmakers, engineers and computer analysts all nicely employed for three years, but their work is happening at such an abstruse level that it means nothing to ordinary sailors. The America’s Cup has lost its relevance.

Enough is enough. It’s time for the Defender and Challenger of Record to recognize their mistake. Abandon this whole 2021 craziness and start again within a simpler, cheaper framework. The sailing world will thank you.

- Anarchist David 

I love watching rich and entitled people getting flung into the water at high speed. it's like a hobby for me.

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5 hours ago, SailRacer said:

I am just looking forward to a good dialup before crossing the start line. Flip flops come to mind.

Sail Safe!

I want the announcers to say "tumbling end over end"...

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The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap. The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap. The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap. The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap. The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap. The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap. The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap. The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap. The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap. The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap. The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap. The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap. The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap. The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap.The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap. The AC will never be cheap.  The AC will never be cheap.

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14 hours ago, Lickindip said:

probably should have cancelled a few more cups ... if you take your tinfoil hat off you will see the sun has risen and will rise again tomorrow

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1
5 hours ago, JimBowie said:

@Editor has a point.  These things are gonna be boring to watch.  Like watching dragster ripping down the 1/4 mile.  About 3 seconds of sheer terror and hours of boredom.  Ever seen the crowds at a NHRA meet?  No?  Cuz there aint anyone there.  Now, reduce the number of regattas to three events spread out over three years and no more than 3-4 competitors and you begin to realize it simply doesn't matter no mo.  I had planned to book flights during spring break 2021 to fly to NZ with family and watch it.  Not now.  Too little, too far, too much.  Nothing to see here, folks....move along.

Please lay off the drugs

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The OP nails it. I think part of the reason that things have got so crazy is that non-Americans misunderstand the importance of the Cup. Kiwis for example seem to widely believe that the Cup is of international importance (taking the name literally), and just don't understand that the Cup does not even rise to regional importance in the USA. No one in the US of A cares about the cup except for folks in a couple of yacht clubs. The misunderstanding of the actual importance of the Cup outside the US leads to investment at the national level (Kiwis again, also Brits and Italians) to compete for its "prestige".

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Coronavirus is going to be over by 2021? 

America's Cup might be the only international sporting event going. 

Oh, wait...the internal NZ sports teams can play because NZ probably will not have active COVID19 there and we can all buy video subscriptions to watch whatever it is the Allblacks play. Serious. 

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Silly me .I thought people were free to do what they want. If you really think that the money spent on AC would be spent saving the world you're in cloud cuckoo land. By the same measure the $$ spent on space exploration would be better spent on Covid 19 research. And so on.

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46 minutes ago, Guvacine said:

the Cup is of international importance (taking the name literally), and just don't understand that the Cup does not even rise to regional importance in the USA. No one in the US of A cares about the cup except for folks in a couple of yacht clubs.

just for your information

the planet is bigger than just the USA

and there are some that do things differently .. without even asking the USA for permission if they can do it

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4 hours ago, carcrash said:

The thing that would make all this technology easily accessible is a fully automatic foil control system. The cost of computation and automated control systems is cheaper than a winch handle, given the software. Open source the foil control system, and the entire sailing world benefits.

All the teams have this. They use it as a training aid. They ain't gonna open source it.

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18 hours ago, Editor said:

fuggedaboutit-300x169.jpg

OK, I’ll say it if nobody else will. It’s time to scrap the whole America’s Cup catastrophe and start again. The disruptions of the COVID-19 crisis may be the catalyst, but there have been signs for more than a year now that the pinnacle of our sport took a disastrous wrong turn after Bermuda. This thing is out of control. 

The INEOS team photo published recently showed more than 100 staff posing proudly in their team uniforms. That’s more than 100 paid bodies just to keep one boat racing in a handful of regattas. New Zealand, a small nation, is spending countless millions building a port facility for the defense series. The challenge teams are gobbling up sponsorship money at obscene rates.

Meanwhile, it is beginning to dawn on the general sailing community that the foiling monomarans are incredibly difficult to sail in anything other than a straight line. They’ve been testing for a year now yet how many videos of these 75-footers show them completing a successful tack or gybe? 

You get the uncomfortable feeling that we’re not being told something. 

It may well be that the fundamental design concept of a swing-foil monohull with no keel is flawed – that it may not be possible for these boats to complete a conventional windward/leeward course in a reasonable range of wind strengths and wave heights. When a helmsman with the skills of Ben Ainslie can’t keep a boat on its feet during a simple bear-away gust there must be something wrong.  

Then there’s the ridiculously complex set of class rules – all 304 of them, plus their many sub-sections and 100 definitions. This may keep the armies of designers, builders, sailmakers, engineers and computer analysts all nicely employed for three years, but their work is happening at such an abstruse level that it means nothing to ordinary sailors. The America’s Cup has lost its relevance.

Enough is enough. It’s time for the Defender and Challenger of Record to recognize their mistake. Abandon this whole 2021 craziness and start again within a simpler, cheaper framework. The sailing world will thank you.

- Anarchist David 

Fucking jealous tool. The day they yanked your press pass still burns eh? 
 

yeah we get it, this is you being controversial for the sake of it, it’s your site it’s your show etc but the great thing is, the freedom of speech shite you hide behind to be court controversy? That’s why we get to disagree with you and tell you to fuck off. 

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you seem to be confusing scot with 10 other people]

Scot's never had a press pass

Scot didn't write the piece hence the byline

Scot doesn't hide behind freedom of speech, he lives by it

The term "freedom of speech shite" says a lot more about you than it does about him.  You live in Turkey?

 

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Then the bell end with the “editor” sign in can get fucked too. 
 

written just like one of Scott’s anti AC rants though. 

no it’s just funny that the usual course of action when someone actually invokes freedom of speech and openly criticises him/you/ the forum is to respond with a ban/treat of a ban. It’s  Also funny that the USA home of good ol freedom of Speech is the most litigious society in the world, hey there probably an amendment for that right? 
 

tell me about Turkey though, sounds fun? 

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46 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

the usual course of action when someone actually invokes freedom of speech and openly criticises him/you/ the forum is to respond with a ban/treat of a ban.

that's what private property is all about.

why so butthurt?

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The Americas Cup isn't meant to be easy. If it was easy, people like David could do it and we don't want that to happen because we would need to read the shit he dribbles more often.

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2 hours ago, barfy said:

All the teams have this. They use it as a training aid. They ain't gonna open source it.

Yes, I know they all have fully automated foil control. And I know it may seem to be IP that must be protected.

But really? It obviously can be independently created, as all the teams did so. Hence, having spent that money, no advantage was gained. So why not open source it and get many more people using and improving it. One design foil struts and masts, might as well be one design automatic foil control software.

Then perhaps we can convert Cal 20s and Islander 36s into foiling machines.

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55 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

that's what private property is all about.

why so butthurt?

Why the edit? Didn’t get the response first time? 
 

no butthurt, it’s just amusing seeing the standard bearers for freedom of speech reach for the ban or the lawyer when someone says something they don’t like. If you can’t see the humour in that?  then it’s on you. 

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22 hours ago, Editor said:

that it may not be possible for these boats to complete a conventional windward/leeward course in a reasonable range of wind strengths and wave heights.

What a load of bollocks, of course they can. These people can sail moths. Have you seen an International Moth?

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2 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Why the edit? Didn’t get the response first time? 
 

no butthurt, it’s just amusing seeing the standard bearers for freedom of speech 

you do know freedom of speech has precisely nothing to do with privately owned platforms, right? 

I mean, I know the government over there tells you all sorts of shit you can and can't say, but do they teach you the concept at least?

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so you can say what you want but none of us can?  Sounds legit. 
 

you “know” our government? Do tell, this will be good. 

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I know my government a bit. Free speech is the 1st Amendment, "Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech."  It only protects speech from restraints by the government, not private parties, companies, etc. 

The US does not have an official secrets act.  It also does not have federal antidisparagement laws, leaving that to litigation. I am not a lawyer but I took high school civics.

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8 hours ago, JALhazmat said:


so you can say what you want but none of us can?  Sounds legit. 

Of course. That's what private property means.  Are you allowed to kick me out of your house if I walk in and start yelling in your face?

UK Human Rights Act:

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

(2) The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

 

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Seems the AC is in a well established pattern since dropping the 12's (which were the only affordable AC boats - thank you post war austerity)

Rich guy wins a fair AC regatta.  Decides its time to modernize the sport with exciting new design guaranteed to grab the world's attention! Rich guy's minions release design details slowly to ensure at least on successful defense.  Then we have one or 2 successful defenses until Rich guy gives in to pressure to actually make the event "fair enough" to attract more than 2 or 3 challenges.  Good fleet shows up to the greatest regatta ever and then either DC or some Kiwi wins.

Then we start over.

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20 hours ago, carcrash said:

Yes, I know they all have fully automated foil control. And I know it may seem to be IP that must be protected.

But really? It obviously can be independently created, as all the teams did so. Hence, having spent that money, no advantage was gained. So why not open source it and get many more people using and improving it. One design foil struts and masts, might as well be one design automatic foil control software.

Then perhaps we can convert Cal 20s and Islander 36s into foiling machines.

I like the idea. We had a discussion a ways back where i posit that a open source base such as beta flight, the mature sublime racing quadcopter PID controller would be a good place to start.

The teams all have invested heavily over the years, from herbie onwards, I'm sure no one wants to give that up. B)

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1 hour ago, cbulger said:

Seems the AC is in a well established pattern since dropping the 12's (which were the only affordable AC boats - thank you post war austerity)

Rich guy wins a fair AC regatta.  Decides its time to modernize the sport with exciting new design guaranteed to grab the world's attention! Rich guy's minions release design details slowly to ensure at least on successful defense.  Then we have one or 2 successful defenses until Rich guy gives in to pressure to actually make the event "fair enough" to attract more than 2 or 3 challenges.  Good fleet shows up to the greatest regatta ever and then either DC or some Kiwi wins.

Then we start over.

I'm not sure too many of the successful challengers ever won a "fair" AC regatta.  If more had been "fair" there may have been a few more holders of the trophy down through the decades than has transpired.  That said, while I might quibble over the details, the underlying implications of your argument aren't entirely off-beam with me either.  And with that comes part of the attraction and much of the kudos due to those that have managed to succeed in winning the trophy, usually against the odds, and sometimes rather steep ones at that.

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On 4/9/2020 at 5:56 AM, linaszuk said:

I want the announcers to say "tumbling end over end"...

Sail GP already has that nailed... ;)

And no, I'm not anti-Sail GP per se'.  But the F50's (and predecessors) are innately more likely to tumble than a foiling mono. 

There might be other phrases to describe some of a foiling mono's "less poised" (or should I say screw-up?) moments... but tumbling end over end like a cat pitchpoling isn't particularly likely.

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On 4/9/2020 at 4:40 AM, carcrash said:

The thing that would make all this technology easily accessible is a fully automatic foil control system. The cost of computation and automated control systems is cheaper than a winch handle, given the software. Open source the foil control system, and the entire sailing world benefits.

And why wasn't this open sourced?  Perhaps some of the following excerpts from several articles reflecting on the effort to produce a B1 tell much of that tale. 

As with the previous two Cup cycles, the speed and accuracy required to adjust submerged foils will have a huge impact on overall boat performance. The ability to sail the boat consistently at the apex of controllable flight could be one of the difference makers. The hardware and software required for such precise flight, therefore, will be one of the focal points of the development teams.

"I had suggested to the Kiwis to choose a less extreme boat than this one. A sort of modern VOR60 (the boat of the former Volvo Ocean Race) on which to develop two rudders with foils. Instead, they [Team New Zealand] wanted a hyper-technological solution, they insisted ... " (Patrizio) Bertelli told La Stampa in a hard-hitting interview.

"The electronic part is especially complicated. We have been working on it for two years."

Helmsman Francesco Bruni had similar thoughts on the matter. He told La Stampa the AC75 was a harder vessel to sail than the catamarans.

"The [catamarans] rose on the water resting on four points, didn't they? The two rudders and the two dinghies. These rest only on three, the two rudders and the arm-foil, with the other arm weighing one ton and protruding from the hull for 5 meters," he told La Stampa.

"Do you understand? It's a question of balance. You have to come up with a new way to navigate and it's not easy. We saw it after a year on the simulator and with the first outings at sea with the prototype. It's a question of speed and balance, you have to find the magic."

In February, America's Cup Events' Peter Thomas said the size and speed of the yachts was going to be incredible, but for that to happen they needed to ensure all systems worked as planned.

"Part of putting the system together is it's got to function and it's got to be reliable," he said. "You can imagine with these big yachts racing around at these high speeds, when they go for a manoeuvre, the system has to work.

"There are over 400 components, and we have to make sure every time they hit the button it drops and if they want to raise it, it raises."

Perhaps if this class is to continue into subsequent AC events there's a case for all teams to start out using a supplied open source working solution that can be calibrated for their own vessel's unique characteristics.  But the AC75 is a new class created with the potential for teams to explore all corners of the class rule (as it turns out they have) and perhaps the need to develop this aspect of each design independently to the design parameters of each unique vessel meaning there was no certainty an out-of-the-box one design would necessarily work equally for all. Or even work for all.

This aspect of the AC75 class rule was indicated from the outset by ETNZ to be a significant influence on the performance ultimately able to be achieved by a team.  As (or if) the class develops over time we may (almost certainly will) see teams likely merging design philosophy to what is determined to be an optimum space in the class rule and at that time it may become more viable to re-consider whether these systems remain a significant component of the performance difference; whether new teams entering the class in subsequent events might expect it to be an open source one-design element with calibration, or whether it's still the secret sauce that everyone needs to develop for themselves. 

If the event moves into subsequent editions using the same class rule, further thought may have to be given to this to avoid it becoming the barrier to new entrants, not only due to the cost to develop, but because of the lead AC36 competitors will have built.  Of course a baseline working package to facilitate teams future development would equalise some of the advantage existing teams may build, but then no-one ever got a hand-up to win the trophy - and shouldn't ever expect one.  And given the investment made by AC36 competitors, do they really care whether there are more competitors in future or not.  Let's face it, there's a certain attraction in succeeding in lodging a boat-on-boat deed of gift challenge if you can, rather than competing for the right to get to the start line and take on the defender, who should always be favoured anyway given their influence over the event.

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On 4/9/2020 at 2:20 AM, Dave Clark said:

Fine. I'm going to jump in on this.



The America's Cup is MEANT to be prohibitively expensive. It is MEANT to be exclusive. It is MEANT to be impractical. It is MEANT to bend the labor of as many experts as possible to the whim of a couple tycoons for the hopeful amusement of everyone else. Look it its history. If you want something fair, economical and practical that dentists can pony up and buy into, race any of the thousands of 40 foot one design keelboats. 

DRC

 

Thank Christ somebody gets it. Doesn't hurt when it comes from a commercially successful innovator like Dave Clark

I'd deviate from his opinion in one small measure. It is not MEANT to be prohibitively expensive. It just inexorably trends in that direction -- and it has for the last 149 years!

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2 hours ago, Skipstone said:
On 4/9/2020 at 4:40 AM, carcrash said:

The thing that would make all this technology easily accessible is a fully automatic foil control system. The cost of computation and automated control systems is cheaper than a winch handle, given the software. Open source the foil control system, and the entire sailing world benefits.

And why wasn't this open sourced?  Perhaps some of the following excerpts from several articles reflecting on the effort to produce a B1 tell much of that tale. 

As with the previous two Cup cycles, the speed and accuracy required to adjust submerged foils will have a huge impact on overall boat performance. The ability to sail the boat consistently at the apex of controllable flight could be one of the difference makers. The hardware and software required for such precise flight, therefore, will be one of the focal points of the development teams.

"I had suggested to the Kiwis to choose a less extreme boat than this one. A sort of modern VOR60 (the boat of the former Volvo Ocean Race) on which to develop two rudders with foils. Instead, they [Team New Zealand] wanted a hyper-technological solution, they insisted ... " (Patrizio) Bertelli told La Stampa in a hard-hitting interview.

"The electronic part is especially complicated. We have been working on it for two years."

Helmsman Francesco Bruni had similar thoughts on the matter. He told La Stampa the AC75 was a harder vessel to sail than the catamarans.

"The [catamarans] rose on the water resting on four points, didn't they? The two rudders and the two dinghies. These rest only on three, the two rudders and the arm-foil, with the other arm weighing one ton and protruding from the hull for 5 meters," he told La Stampa.

"Do you understand? It's a question of balance. You have to come up with a new way to navigate and it's not easy. We saw it after a year on the simulator and with the first outings at sea with the prototype. It's a question of speed and balance, you have to find the magic."

In February, America's Cup Events' Peter Thomas said the size and speed of the yachts was going to be incredible, but for that to happen they needed to ensure all systems worked as planned.

"Part of putting the system together is it's got to function and it's got to be reliable," he said. "You can imagine with these big yachts racing around at these high speeds, when they go for a manoeuvre, the system has to work.

"There are over 400 components, and we have to make sure every time they hit the button it drops and if they want to raise it, it raises."

Perhaps if this class is to continue into subsequent AC events there's a case for all teams to start out using a supplied open source working solution that can be calibrated for their own vessel's unique

One design training wheels? Can't see the necessity.

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On 4/8/2020 at 7:20 AM, Dave Clark said:

Fine. I'm going to jump in on this.

 

Foil tack

 

Foil gybe

Countless other videos.. Who even cares. Do your research.

The America's Cup is MEANT to be prohibitively expensive. It is MEANT to be exclusive. It is MEANT to be impractical. It is MEANT to bend the labor of as many experts as possible to the whim of a couple tycoons for the hopeful amusement of everyone else. Look it its history. If you want something fair, economical and practical that dentists can pony up and buy into, race any of the thousands of 40 foot one design keelboats. 

DRC

 

Never mind that the boats look next gen incredible and that this version will blow away all previous cups for speed and tech, it must be cancelled because there are no COVID positive trans female/male/indeterminate cis gendered autism spectrum crewed programs that are included. This violates my safe zone area and I must call for cancellation.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Skipstone said:

And why wasn't this open sourced?

Because outside of fewer than a handful of boats globally, no one has any use for it.

The cost of foil control software is likely the least unaffordable component of a 20 m foiling monohull.

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33 minutes ago, zillafreak said:

, it must be cancelled because there are no COVID positive trans female/male/indeterminate cis gendered autism spectrum crewed programs that are included. This violates my safe zone area and I must call for cancellation.

Do you smell toast, grandpa?

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1 hour ago, barfy said:

One design training wheels? Can't see the necessity. 

I've heard $20+ million for flight control software development...  Tends to suggest a necessary campaign budget of $100M+.

Necessity for training wheels...? Of course not.  Would they lower a barrier to entry?  Quite possibly.  Comes back to whether you want fleets of 10 or 20... Or whether you're happy with anything much north of a defender and a CoR/DoG challenger numbers-wise.

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1 hour ago, RobG said:

Because outside of fewer than a handful of boats globally, no one has any use for it.

The cost of foil control software is likely the least unaffordable component of a 20 m foiling monohull. 

Wasn't actually my question but a possible answer to someone else wondering about open source and the prospect of flow-down. 

Now, like you, I'm not sure there's much of a market for flowdown of foilers based on this technology, certainly yet. 

But for all that flight control software - which ultimately incorporates foil control software as one of the least of it's premises, would seem to be a particularly expensive beast.  It may not stay this way, but safe to say the current four B1's probably have $50M collectively invested in their respective developments of this piece of the puzzle, and it could be as much as half that again, perhaps even a little more.  Not chump change, not that anything AC ever has been, is, or will be.

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$20m+ for a feedback loop and a handful of sensors that you aren't even allowed to use during racing ... probably why the teams decide to partner with airbus etc who modify their existing systems for a fraction of the 20m

 

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2 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

$20m+ for a feedback loop and a handful of sensors that you aren't even allowed to use during racing ... probably why the teams decide to partner with airbus etc who modify their existing systems for a fraction of the 20m

 

Agreed entirely if the reports I've read are to be believed.  I'm sceptical about the actual level of expense incurred.  Or perhaps more so the scope of that expense as it's been portrayed. It may be that it reflects hardware, software, sensors, electronics and everything required to make the foils work, their fine control, perhaps to control aspects of sail management too, and possibly even the tactical information systems aboard. Hell, it might include some aspects of boat construction for that too.

But not all of whatever the level of expenditure it actually represents "isn't able to be used during racing".  The electronics, the learning, the (manual) automation of certain aspects of flight control through a range of manoeuvres are all fair game if teams are smart, and by the time you're lining up for an AC, you've got to expect they're all at least rather capable.  These aren't trailer sailors...

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i would have to think that 20m of the control system alone is well over the top,

more likely the 20m is to develop and finetune the simulator which can then go on to control an actual boat (mini moon for example) and then go on to train the crew how to achieve max VMG

for a 100m campaign 20 into a simulator, 50 into wages, 30 into boat construction ... then somehow afford a base ontop of that

 

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For sure the training wheels are only 1/10 of the price of running a boat imho.

Physical sim - data harvesting- virtual sim-autopilot. All interconnected. With the price tag of folks to manage the agile pipeline. $$$$$$

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17 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Of course. That's what private property means.  Are you allowed to kick me out of your house if I walk in and start yelling in your face?

UK Human Rights Act:

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

(2) The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

 

Firstly I didn’t know the internet was your house Or private property. Apologies.

secondly didn’t know the Uk human rights act,

a, covers the internet
b, has anything to do with the USA supper duper freedom of speech 

every days a school day ;-) 

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^A nongovernmental website and forum can be private property with terms and conditions. US free speech only pertains to no governmental restraint. Please reread #48 above.

 

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lol

12 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

Do you smell toast, grandpa?

 

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5 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

secondly didn’t know the Uk human rights act

 

i thought you lived there?  That's some sad shit.  

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resorting to selective quoting to “win” the internet.

grow up 

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Editor +1. Go back to Vim Sceptre, America C3 types!   At least they have a past that is not screwed up.

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Gawd, thought they was nekkid...!

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So is the problem that the venue was sold on getting big bucks from millions of  tourists and mega rich on superyachts and that won't happen in 2021?  But they can get teams in and boats and race after quarantine?

 

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3 hours ago, barfy said:

Yeah. And those knatty white uniforms.

Talking of white uniforms...
This guy

61CA1989-4C24-4F84-AD8C-CEF1FBE9F930.jpeg.ab93231b2b80879f0c8cd52528b18a89.jpeg

reminds me of this guy.

9CEFA754-06FC-4344-BA0A-4AE09E698AC2.jpeg.4f0f101130a2dc51133435c057e3cc04.jpeg
 

 

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

So is the problem that the venue was sold on getting big bucks from millions of  tourists and mega rich on superyachts and that won't happen in 2021?  But they can get teams in and boats and race after quarantine?

thats the state of world sports

it applies to any teams that have new stadiums or indeed invested any sort of funds that depended on this years returns for live and televised viewers

 

notwithstanding the peculiar situation that superyachts have ( their own sustained pre quarantine ) they could easily figure a way around that

but the rest of the usual tourism and any boost to it .. is dead in the water ( or at the least flopping around and gasping )

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1 hour ago, phill_nz said:

notwithstanding the peculiar situation that superyachts have ( their own sustained pre quarantine ) they could easily figure a way around that

Phill, that's only the poor crew lackeys that dont spend anything.  The big spenders on Superyachts tend to FIFO, time is money to most of them.

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On 4/7/2020 at 11:15 PM, Editor said:

fuggedaboutit-300x169.jpg

OK, I’ll say it if nobody else will....

Now THAT'S funny. Gee, ya think?

Yawn.

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10 minutes ago, trt131 said:

The big spenders on Superyachts tend to FIFO, time is money to most of them.

aint many places they can FIFO anymore

wont be for awhile

but they could go for a cruise and enjoy the freedom when they get there

which is the point of this situation

wherever they go apart from the local store there will be time restrictions

they own something that almost negates that problem .. just by enjoying a few weeks out sailing

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12 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Yawn.

at least you got that bit right

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Maybe a lesson that ventures counting on revenues from a tiny percentage of the world population eg superyachts are risky. That tiny percentage has mega billions but can be fickle and have lots of other ways to spend their discretionary cash. Their interest may not be as reliable as imagined.

A variant of "you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas."  

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15 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Maybe a lesson that ventures counting on revenues from a tiny percentage of the world population eg superyachts are risky. That tiny percentage has mega billions but can be fickle and have lots of other ways to spend their discretionary cash. Their interest may not be as reliable as imagined.

A variant of "you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas."  

+1...! As most of us know; but do/say nada!

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This class needs to air and we want to see racing.

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? is; will contest be watched for racing or for disasters like with NASCAR...?

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