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Greyhound37

C&C 30OD values today

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So if you were interested in a quick 30 foot +/- reasonably late model boat to use for around the cans, phrf and just spirited sailing the C&C 30's look pretty sweet. The few that are on the market have been active for a while. What is a nice package with trailer worth in todays no racing, no sailing in MD waters environment? 

Asking for a friend

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I think unless you're willing to have a very high level helmsman and trimming team onboard it will be an exercise in futility at decently great expense. The underwater foil package is just too extreme for any amateur or "I just want a fast 30 footer" team to really appreciate the boat. You'll leave frustrated and unhappy. 

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^^^^ I don't know jacko. But, after a season hacking around in PHRF, the rating will get to the point that an owner can start picking up some expensive pickle dishes.

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23 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

I think unless you're willing to have a very high level helmsman and trimming team onboard it will be an exercise in futility at decently great expense. The underwater foil package is just too extreme for any amateur or "I just want a fast 30 footer" team to really appreciate the boat. You'll leave frustrated and unhappy. 

Totally disagree.  These boats are pretty easy to sail and with a few practice days and some coaching an amateur driver and team can have a ton of fun and win some races in time.  Time and time again, I have worked with fully amateur teams and shown them just how easy it is to step up to a higher performance boat.

 

Current pricing makes the C&C 30 a pretty good buy and most boats come very well set up and loaded with sails and equipment.  For racing in MD, the PHRF (single point) rating may be challenging at times depending on the course and wind speed.  It would probably fair better under ORC, which is available on the Chesapeake.

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6 minutes ago, billomalley said:

Totally disagree.  These boats are pretty easy to sail and with a few practice days and some coaching an amateur driver and team can have a ton of fun and win some races in time.  Time and time again, I have worked with fully amateur teams and shown them just how easy it is to step up to a higher performance boat.

Current pricing makes the C&C 30 a pretty good buy and most boats come very well set up and loaded with sails and equipment.  For racing in MD, the PHRF (single point) rating may be challenging at times depending on the course and wind speed.  It would probably fair better under ORC, which is available on the Chesapeake.

What was the daily crew cost on A&C?

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So all that being considered what is the value today? I am not concerned if it is the right tool for the job. 

A few boats on the east coast available.

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9 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

What was the daily crew cost on A&C?

I'm not personally involved with this program but my estimates would be $0.00 daily crew cost.  Perhaps there was a paid pro for some of the higher level events but I doubt this was the case for local Bay racing.

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16 minutes ago, Greyhound37 said:

So all that being considered what is the value today? I am not concerned if it is the right tool for the job. 

A few boats on the east coast available.

I see several C&C 30's listed in the $90k range.  I am sure these prices are open to discussion depending on a seller's motivation and "Threshold of Pain".  I believe a clean / solid offer that solves a problem and makes the yacht go away quick and without hassle will be an opportunity for productive conversation.

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Sailing to the rating is not a concern. Small boat - crazy fast in the right conditions and $60-$80K purchase price=lotsa fun when boating here resumes

This year is not looking good so no hurry

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20 minutes ago, Greyhound37 said:

Sailing to the rating is not a concern. Small boat - crazy fast in the right conditions and $60-$80K purchase price=lotsa fun when boating here resumes

This year is not looking good so no hurry

Not sure how a C&C 30 is a good deal when you can buy an FT10 or a Farr 30 for half the price and go just as fast or faster. Plus both of those boats sail very well to their ratings.

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Farr 30 is older, symmetric and 20 seconds per mile slower (rating) if memory serves.

 

 

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To take my earlier comment one step further, I don't get why sport/full race boats such as the C&C are not significantly faster than their predecessors (e.g. a Farr 30), designed 20+ years earlier. People go on and on about why new race boats don't sell more units.

Think about it like this: How many 2021 Corvettes would Chevy sell if they were no faster than a 1994 'vette? 

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A lot of it is that the septuagenarians on the PHRF committee automatically ding new boats, making a lot hard to justify shelling out cash for a new boat that'll never rate competitively against 20 yr old designs. 

That said, the Mumm 30 / Farr 30 did something right, it's still fast. And look what Roddy did to make his an asym boat.

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Ramrod (Farr 30) just came up for sale on yachtworld.com.

So did his old 40 still named Ramrod. Located Thailand

 

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2 hours ago, Starboard!! said:

A lot of it is that the septuagenarians on the PHRF committee automatically ding new boats, making a lot hard to justify shelling out cash for a new boat that'll never rate competitively against 20 yr old designs. 

That said, the Mumm 30 / Farr 30 did something right, it's still fast. And look what Roddy did to make his an asym boat.

He may have modified the 30, but it didn't clean house. The non mod 30 beat him in WNR 2 series. 

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Also consider that you will likely be the last market buyer of one of these boats. Other owners will start donating them and that means you won't be able to sell yours (supply greater than demand) so you will probably eventually have to donate yours or sell at a donation-equivalent price. If this reasoning is valid, I wouldn't pay more than $50k now or just wait for the donation cascade to begin later....

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Quote

..Think about it like this: How many 2021 Corvettes would Chevy sell if they were no faster than a 1994 'vette? 

And if they did not move the engine back and...

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One is for sale on the west coast for $69k, so the $50k number mentioned above is probably fairly realistic.

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1 minute ago, samc99us said:

One is for sale on the west coast for $69k, so the $50k number mentioned above is probably fairly realistic.

Sails are from original purchase it seems. What's more fun is Enema Encore wants $135k and "the name is not transferrable" so pay someone to remove the name after purchase. Oh and their sales aren't North or Quantum which in some eyes could be worth less. With the number of Hendos for sale, and being confined to PHRF, I'd buy one of those for $35k.

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 Anema and Core lists no sail newer than 2017, yes a cherry boat but I think their ask is a bit out to lunch. I suspect the sails on the West Coast boat are in reasonable shape and sufficient for a season or two of PHRF racing on the Chesapeake. I agree that a Hendo might be a better buy, the downside being their age and potential problems. Most probably need $20k to be brought into good shape, at which point a <5 year old C&C 30OD for the price of a new J/70 starts to look attractive.

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Anema & Core is asking twice the value of the rig. They may be keeping the price high to help substantiate a donation value. Certainly not to sell

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29 minutes ago, samc99us said:

 Anema and Core lists no sail newer than 2017, yes a cherry boat but I think their ask is a bit out to lunch. I suspect the sails on the West Coast boat are in reasonable shape and sufficient for a season or two of PHRF racing on the Chesapeake. I agree that a Hendo might be a better buy, the downside being their age and potential problems. Most probably need $20k to be brought into good shape, at which point a <5 year old C&C 30OD for the price of a new J/70 starts to look attractive.

The Hendo Short Bus in Solomons has been updated nonstop since purchase. If I had cash, that is the one I would buy. I don't think you would have to worry about much with it.

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That looks and sounds like a clean example and worthy contender in this market space. I'm curious what their next ride is?

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24 minutes ago, Greyhound37 said:

Anema & Core is asking twice the value of the rig. They may be keeping the price high to help substantiate a donation value. Certainly not to sell

That makes sense.

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4 minutes ago, samc99us said:

That looks and sounds like a clean example and worthy contender in this market space. I'm curious what their next ride is?

If I were in the market, I would look at two boats in Annapolis. 1. Short Bus. 2. Problem Child the BC27 Custom.  The Hendo is a great light air boat, and a rocket downwind in breeze as everyone knows. WIth the Bay being light air often, it would work, and I think far more so than the C&C as they are sticky in the light IMHO. The Hendo would be relegated to A0/A1 and as this class is dwindling, would have a hard time beating the 111s, and IMX40, etc. Also, you need a full crew of 9 in breeze.  Alternatively, Problem Child excels in the Bay conditions as well, and fits solidly in A2 where are there are more boats to play with.  3-5 to crew is a nice sweet spot. Problem Child's downfall being, it is gold and many do not like the color, and it most likely needs a full suite of new sails as I do not believe they have been replaced. 

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18 hours ago, Pokey uh da LBC said:

To take my earlier comment one step further, I don't get why sport/full race boats such as the C&C are not significantly faster than their predecessors (e.g. a Farr 30), designed 20+ years earlier. People go on and on about why new race boats don't sell more units.

Think about it like this: How many 2021 Corvettes would Chevy sell if they were no faster than a 1994 'vette? 

Because you can only make a 30 footer go a certain speed upwind, and to make them go faster downwind you have to add wetted surface area (that makes them slow in light air) so you shrink down on the size of the foils to cut back on wetted surface area (or add a shitload of sail area) which make the boats very twitchy when the breeze gets up. 

All of Mark Mills' recent boats have that same tricky problem with control. The King 40, C&C 30, Summit 35, etc. If your main trimmer isn't mainlining adderal, you're going to have upwind wipeout problems and good luck on any kind of power reach. The IC37 (which is just a scaled up C&C 30) was so bad out of the box that the NYYC demanded a redesign of the rudder to provide better control for amateur helmsmen - even if it meant it would slow the boat down a bit. 

14 hours ago, Cristoforo said:

Ask Jacko if he’s ever stepped foot on one! 

Did a regatta on Narragansett Bay on one of the demo boats with the full racing team of a prospective owner. We did have pros in the trimming spots and the boat would still do random wind-checks upwind. 

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16 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

Because you can only make a 30 footer go a certain speed upwind, and to make them go faster downwind you have to add wetted surface area (that makes them slow in light air) so you shrink down on the size of the foils to cut back on wetted surface area (or add a shitload of sail area) which make the boats very twitchy when the breeze gets up. 

All of Mark Mills' recent boats have that same tricky problem with control. The King 40, C&C 30, Summit 35, etc. If your main trimmer isn't mainlining adderal, you're going to have upwind wipeout problems and good luck on any kind of power reach. The IC37 (which is just a scaled up C&C 30) was so bad out of the box that the NYYC demanded a redesign of the rudder to provide better control for amateur helmsmen - even if it meant it would slow the boat down a bit. 

Did a regatta on Narragansett Bay on one of the demo boats with the full racing team of a prospective owner. We did have pros in the trimming spots and the boat would still do random wind-checks upwind. 

Didn't the demo boat have a rudder issue. I thought they mentioned that on the test sail we had.

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4 hours ago, jackolantern said:

All of Mark Mills' recent boats have that same tricky problem with control. The King 40, C&C 30, Summit 35, etc. If your main trimmer isn't mainlining adderal, you're going to have upwind wipeout problems and good luck on any kind of power reach.

We have never had an issue with control. The Summit has been quite mild mannered. Typical of most of the type formed boats...likes it's groove. Otherwise a great boat to drive. 

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23 hours ago, Pokey uh da LBC said:

To take my earlier comment one step further, I don't get why sport/full race boats such as the C&C are not significantly faster than their predecessors (e.g. a Farr 30), designed 20+ years earlier. People go on and on about why new race boats don't sell more units.

Think about it like this: How many 2021 Corvettes would Chevy sell if they were no faster than a 1994 'vette? 

Totally different environment.   Advances in processing and computer control have allowed huge increases in the power an internal engine can produce.  It has also enabled all the traction control, active suspensions, yaw control, etc that allows your average gold chain wearing moron to not kill himself with all that power (though some still manage to, when they shut it all down and say "watch this...").  The environment a displacement hulled sailboat (or even a planning hulled sailboat) operates in precludes huge gains in performance.  Like a propellor driven aircraft will never go faster than the fighters at the end of WWII (once the prop tips go supersonic, you're done going faster), non foiling sailboats are at or near the apex of performance, and you're not going to see huge gains analogous to the Corvette.  Need a different sport if you want that.

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I get ya Crash: at this point, to go much faster, a design needs to give up stability or sacrifice upwind for downwind performance. And that's why (in my totally uninformed opinion) boats like the C&C 30 aren't selling. Without a significant increase in performance, there's just no real need for a new 30 sport boat. On the other hand, there seems to be plenty of demand for a faster short-hander (Sf3300, JPK, or Pogo), speedy club racer (J88), or even a de-tuned sporty (J70). 

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43 minutes ago, Pokey uh da LBC said:

I get ya Crash: at this point, to go much faster, a design needs to give up stability or sacrifice upwind for downwind performance. And that's why (in my totally uninformed opinion) boats like the C&C 30 aren't selling. Without a significant increase in performance, there's just no real need for a new 30 sport boat. On the other hand, there seems to be plenty of demand for a faster short-hander (Sf3300, JPK, or Pogo), speedy club racer (J88), or even a de-tuned sporty (J70). 

That brings a question for everyone. What would you rather have, 1. Faster Upwind Speed, or 2. Faster Downwind speed? Then we will go further and say, 1. For Buoy Racing, 2. For Distance Racing. No need to discuss downwind distance races vs upwind distances races. We will leave it as an average of 50/50.

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Trim,

To me, I dunno that it matters.  What I want is a boat that can race without being a total ass pain to do so, yet still makes a decent overnight/week long family cruiser.  Think J/109 or Bene 36.7 in the 35 foot range.  Gotta drop back to the mid 80's for a 30 footer...S2 9.1 or J-30, etc....

To me the main improvements going forward is in reduced maintenance, and (possibly) the reduction in needed sail inventory...

Crash

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On 4/16/2020 at 10:28 AM, jackolantern said:

I think unless you're willing to have a very high level helmsman and trimming team onboard it will be an exercise in futility at decently great expense. The underwater foil package is just too extreme for any amateur or "I just want a fast 30 footer" team to really appreciate the boat. You'll leave frustrated and unhappy. 

Totally agree. We have one at  our club and have rarely seen him beat a Farr 30 around the track. twice as much money too. Best value for you and easiest to sail is the melges 32. fast as, and way less tweeky than the C&C which has too many strings. A powerful boat, but sticky in the light with all that wetted surface and deep keel. Not much spare kit around either,as I believe they made less than 10.

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On 4/16/2020 at 12:34 PM, Greyhound37 said:

Farr 30 is older, symmetric and 20 seconds per mile slower (rating) if memory serves.

 

 

Farr 30s are awesome and can keep up with a C&C 30 no probs.. we have about a dozen in the PNW and they go well all the way around the track. Easy to sail and still holding together. You can sprit them and not take a huge hit. great in the light. Evens out when the breeze come up with the symmetrical. Guy up here was actually making retro sprits. Great for distance racing.

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19 hours ago, samc99us said:

One is for sale on the west coast for $69k, so the $50k number mentioned above is probably fairly realistic.

Funny that the guy at our club paid about 125k U$A a few years ago and gets beat by all the halfpriced farr 30s regularly.

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3 hours ago, Oxygen Thief said:

Best value for you and easiest to sail is the melges 32.

I agree too bad they are so rare on the east coast

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18 hours ago, trimfast said:

That brings a question for everyone. What would you rather have, 1. Faster Upwind Speed, or 2. Faster Downwind speed? Then we will go further and say, 1. For Buoy Racing, 2. For Distance Racing. No need to discuss downwind distance races vs upwind distances races. We will leave it as an average of 50/50.

Boat performance is a compromise.  But a shitty compromise is to go the same speed in a boat that costs 4 times as much with a bad rating.

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11 hours ago, Crash said:

Trim,

To me, I dunno that it matters.  What I want is a boat that can race without being a total ass pain to do so, yet still makes a decent overnight/week long family cruiser.  Think J/109 or Bene 36.7 in the 35 foot range.  Gotta drop back to the mid 80's for a 30 footer...S2 9.1 or J-30, etc....

To me the main improvements going forward is in reduced maintenance, and (possibly) the reduction in needed sail inventory...

Crash

Elan E3 for the 30-footer, E4 for your 35-footer, E5 for the 40-footer.

Rob Humphries design with plumb bow, moderate beam, hard chines, double rudder, torpedo keel, overlapping jib, asymmetric on a retractable sprit, tapered keel stepped mast and a very cruiseable interior and good cockpit ergonomics.

The hull is vacuum infused with foam core. Even better with the Pure Performance-option with carbon mast, dyform rigging, ligthened cabin with composite bulkheads, vacuum infused deck etc.

The E# and their earlier iterations, 310/320, 350/360, 400 have been proving themselves on long distance races, keeping up with bigger boats.

If I had the money for a new boat, I would have one of those. Seems like the perfect compromise to me, in terms of upwind/downwind-performance and race-/cruiseability.

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Can't edit the above post, just wanted to add the following:

The E# are improved upon the ###-series, e.g. on ergonomics and down below, as well as being lighter.

Here's a video of an older 350 planing, for your viewing pleasure:

 

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On 4/17/2020 at 9:20 AM, samc99us said:

 Anema and Core lists no sail newer than 2017, yes a cherry boat but I think their ask is a bit out to lunch. I suspect the sails on the West Coast boat are in reasonable shape and sufficient for a season or two of PHRF racing on the Chesapeake. I agree that a Hendo might be a better buy, the downside being their age and potential problems. Most probably need $20k to be brought into good shape, at which point a <5 year old C&C 30OD for the price of a new J/70 starts to look attractive.

Having raced a Hendo for quite a while on the bay, they are silly fun but the rating is not conducive to silverware if that’s what you’re after. If you don’t care about the rating, or are willing to put up with it being a little finicky to sail upwind, the Hendo is a hoot and a half for not much money. 

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On 4/16/2020 at 1:00 PM, Greyhound37 said:

So if you were interested in a quick 30 foot +/- reasonably late model boat to use for around the cans, phrf and just spirited sailing the C&C 30's look pretty sweet. The few that are on the market have been active for a while. What is a nice package with trailer worth in todays no racing, no sailing in MD waters environment? 

Asking for a friend

Here is the problem for ANY toy purchase, and the newest C&C 30 is a pretty specialized toy at that. You are shopping for a racing yacht in November 1929. By 1931 the owners that wanted $100K in 1929 might trade for a bushel of apples and a cow. I would only go forward with this idea if you the friend are OK with having something that cannot be sold again.

 

 

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4 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Here is the problem for ANY toy purchase, and the newest C&C 30 is a pretty specialized toy at that. You are shopping for a racing yacht in November 1929. By 1931 the owners that wanted $100K in 1929 might trade for a bushel of apples and a cow. I would only go forward with this idea if you the friend are OK with having something that cannot be sold again.

 

 

Valid Point. I have been in the boat business since 1977. The biggest shock was 2008 when we watched top drawer $1M boats value fall 35% in 90 days. Everyone was selling and back then the pay offs were high. The buyers in 2008-2011 were people over 55 who made their money years ago and were ready to take advantage of the opportunity to buy cheap and go cruising

. This is not just about money this time. Social distancing, masks... This time we are looking at dismantling the way you use and enjoy your boats in addition to a financial shock. This could be very ugly for a lot of people. The few boat shoppers who are active have a wait and see attitude for sure. I just ran my powerboat up from SE Florida. Very spooky running 600 miles on the near outside and saw 5 pleasure craft. Unfortunately the fundamentals of what is happening now is going to impact the middle and lower class income people immediately. The rich and super rich will adapt.  

So here is the only bright spot in the sale of toys as I see it. People over 65 (like me) think hell I may be dead in 5 years. Or worse in a home slobbering down the front... The clock is ticking.  

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Farr 30 is a great boat-I used to crew on one and IMHO was ahead of its time.  Fast-planing boat with a bowsprit kit available.  It is also a great value.  But you mentioned you want to do some weekend cruising?  Not much in the Farr 30 for that-there was no toilet, just a small sink.  You have to really decide what you want. 

I am biased, but I love my twin rudder SF3600-it is easy to single-hand, super stable, planes easily with a furling Code-zero and has a nice interior-but its over twice the price.  It's also not as fast in light air as the Farr 30.  The SF3200 is cheaper than the 3600 but supposedly sticky in light air upwind (no personal experience). 

You have to be realistic and have to decide what you want-race or race/cruise.

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On 4/18/2020 at 1:47 PM, Alaris said:

Having raced a Hendo for quite a while on the bay, they are silly fun but the rating is not conducive to silverware if that’s what you’re after. If you don’t care about the rating, or are willing to put up with it being a little finicky to sail upwind, the Hendo is a hoot and a half for not much money. 

That’s the problem with most fun boats. The rating doesn’t work unless you have a lot of downwind planing in conditions where your competitors can’t plane. Perhaps ORC has helped with that, but I doubt it unless the regatta organizers use wind in their handicapping.

The other issue is there just aren’t that many boats to compete against, at least on the Chesapeake. The number of competitors in PHRF A0/A1 isn’t that many and seems to dwindle by the year. This was a factor in my friend going for a PHRF A2 boat that is still fun and meets the bill of a racer/cruiser. He settled on a J/120, currently stuck in the New England.

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11 hours ago, Greyhound37 said:

Valid Point. I have been in the boat business since 1977. The biggest shock was 2008 when we watched top drawer $1M boats value fall 35% in 90 days. Everyone was selling and back then the pay offs were high. The buyers in 2008-2011 were people over 55 who made their money years ago and were ready to take advantage of the opportunity to buy cheap and go cruising

. This is not just about money this time. Social distancing, masks... This time we are looking at dismantling the way you use and enjoy your boats in addition to a financial shock. This could be very ugly for a lot of people. The few boat shoppers who are active have a wait and see attitude for sure. I just ran my powerboat up from SE Florida. Very spooky running 600 miles on the near outside and saw 5 pleasure craft. Unfortunately the fundamentals of what is happening now is going to impact the middle and lower class income people immediately. The rich and super rich will adapt.  

So here is the only bright spot in the sale of toys as I see it. People over 65 (like me) think hell I may be dead in 5 years. Or worse in a home slobbering down the front... The clock is ticking.  

I would agree - a friend was in the market for a 30' or so racer and was about to pull the trigger on a boat before this all happened. 

 

Now it's a case of giving it a month or two for prices to fall, let people get to the point where they'll accept even lower offers. I don't know how many people are happy with dropping thousands on a boat just to have it sit in the garage until next season either

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On 4/16/2020 at 4:38 PM, Greyhound37 said:

Ramrod (Farr 30) just came up for sale on yachtworld.com.

So did his old 40 still named Ramrod. Located Thailand

 

Ramrod couldn't have sold already could she?  Cant find the listing on yachtworld...

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Deleted my earlier post.

Can't imagine that boat was on the market for any longer than a day, there's enough people out there who knew it to buy it up as soon as it was 

Without a doubt the most beautiful Farr 30 I've ever seen

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2 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

So what’s Rod planning on getting next?
 

There is a new J111 in the yard that is his.

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Makes sense. Didn’t  only modify the farr 30 because the class had died out? He should be able to put together a good crew to take on Slush Fund and the other 111’s, will strengthen the class.

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30 minutes ago, Controversial_posts said:

Makes sense. Didn’t  only modify the farr 30 because the class had died out? He should be able to put together a good crew to take on Slush Fund and the other 111’s, will strengthen the class.

Believe you are correct on the experiment. With the 111 NA's here in the fall, it would make sense to get a 111. 

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Boats are still selling. Two sold on my dock over the past two weeks.

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